Thank Goodness for Two Classes

[hockeyfan21]

It gives teams like New Ulm the opportunity to get humiliated 10-0 by Breck.

Star Tribune Quote:
"Big story here was just how dominant Breck was. About the only drama left after two periods was whether or not the Mustangs would break the state tournament record of 54 shots on goal. They could only manage 49. So much for that."

Thank goodness the low enrollment at private schools doesn't create a debilitating disadvantage athletically. At least there is a place for them to play and compete on an equal level with the class A tournament.

Can't wait for the Breck-Warroad final, classic match up of two underdogs overcoming obstacles all season long to live out a dream...

Hope the coaches and AD's are proud.

[hockeyfool]

Was it a sellout?

[mn miracle man]

It gives teams like New Ulm the opportunity to get humiliated 10-0 by Breck.

Star Tribune Quote:
"Big story here was just how dominant Breck was. About the only drama left after two periods was whether or not the Mustangs would break the state tournament record of 54 shots on goal. They could only manage 49. So much for that."

Thank goodness the low enrollment at private schools doesn't create a debilitating disadvantage athletically. At least there is a place for them to play and compete on an equal level with the class A tournament.

Can't wait for the Breck-Warroad final, classic match up of two underdogs overcoming obstacles all season long to live out a dream...

Hope the coaches and AD's are proud.

I think the first mistake for girls was splitting from one class to two, yet making it worse by expanding the A field from 4 teams to 8 teams a few years ago. Not to mention there are enough threads bashing Warroad so let's get over it, thanks.

[Ms. Conduct]

The coaches and ADs should be proud. Players on teams like Breck, Warroad, and other strong teams work uncommonly hard to achieve their goals year round. These girls want to win State Championships and shouldn't have to quit playing to their abilities as soon as they've put a game out of reach in an unfortunately lopsided match-up. Some of these girls are worried about getting college coaches to notice them, performing well on such a large stage, making the best memories they can in what could be their only chance to play in the tournament, etc. Maybe their third-and fourth-liners got the opportunity to score some of their only points on the season, maybe they got the chance to perfect their powerplays and PKs in preparation for the tougher semi-final games ahead. Also consider that maybe the coaches are actually telling their girls not to score on every opportunity...from the sound of some of the games today the margin of victory could have been even bigger.

Don't be so quick to assume that good players have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Everyone has their own obstacles to overcome.

[hockeywild7]

Class A really needs to go back to 4 teams. I also think all private schools should be required to play at the AA level. Just my opinion.

[hockeyfan21]

These girls want to win State Championships and shouldn't have to quit playing to their abilities as soon as they've put a game out of reach in an unfortunately lopsided match-up.

You're missing the point completely. The issue isn't that they beat a team 10-0, it's that they are even playing against that team since they've opted to play class A instead of AA. It wouldn't be a lopsided match up (or at least no where near so bad) if the teams were playing at their talent level. The issue isn't that the girls scored 10 goals, it's the decisions of some of the coaches and AD's who choose to play in a lower level tournament that they do not belong in. Think Breck beats any of the AA teams 10-0? Nope. Think they could beat any of the teams in the AA tournament if they play well? Yup.

from the sound of some of the games today the margin of victory could have been even bigger.

You just made my point for me.

Don't be so quick to assume that good players have everything handed to them on a silver platter

Who said they did? But Breck playing in class A is like the Gophers playing Eau Claire. Same sport, same age, same gender, different league. The only reason for two classes is to give opportunities to teams who have zero shot at a state tournament under a single class system. Does that sound like Breck?

Don't try and act like the Breck coaches are classy because they played third and fourth liners or "perfected their powerplay" in the first round of the state tournament. Think Roseville will have that luxury?

And before someone decides to read what they want into this. IT IS NOT A SHOT AT ANY ATHLETE FROM ANY TOWN! It is a shot at the people making the decisions. Every girl just wants to work hard, play hockey, and have success.

History of class A state champs...
2009 Blake vs Warroad. Class A talent or AA?
2008 Alexandria vs. Breck. Breck = A? (Go Alex!)
2007 Blake vs. Farmington. Blake = A?
2006 South St. Paul vs. Warroad. Class A or AA (SSP won AA the year before, one year later need to move down to A)?
2005 Holy Angels. Notice a trend yet?
2004 Benilde St. Margerets. How about now?
2003 Blake
2002 Benilde St. Margerets.

So to increase opportunity for smaller schools and to help grow the sport there have been 8 tourney's prior to this year. The winners have been
-6 out of 8 private schools
-1 the AA champ the year prior

So that's increasing opportunity? And I'll be amazed if it isn't a Breck v. Warroad final this year. Can't imagine why some of us have a problem with the decisions of some schools' AD's....

Warroad just bumped Chisago lakes 11-1. Shots 55-17. Close call for the Warriors [/b]

[hockeywild7]

6 of last 8 class A titles won by privates

[mn miracle man]

These girls want to win State Championships and shouldn't have to quit playing to their abilities as soon as they've put a game out of reach in an unfortunately lopsided match-up.

You're missing the point completely. The issue isn't that they beat a team 10-0, it's that they are even playing against that team since they've opted to play class A instead of AA. It wouldn't be a lopsided match up (or at least no where near so bad) if the teams were playing at their talent level. The issue isn't that the girls scored 10 goals, it's the decisions of some of the coaches and AD's who choose to play in a lower level tournament that they do not belong in. Think Breck beats any of the AA teams 10-0? Nope. Think they could beat any of the teams in the AA tournament if they play well? Yup.

from the sound of some of the games today the margin of victory could have been even bigger.

You just made my point for me.

Don't be so quick to assume that good players have everything handed to them on a silver platter

Who said they did? But Breck playing in class A is like the Gophers playing Eau Claire. Same sport, same age, same gender, different league. The only reason for two classes is to give opportunities to teams who have zero shot at a state tournament under a single class system. Does that sound like Breck?

Don't try and act like the Breck coaches are classy because they played third and fourth liners or "perfected their powerplay" in the first round of the state tournament. Think Roseville will have that luxury?

And before someone decides to read what they want into this. IT IS NOT A SHOT AT ANY ATHLETE FROM ANY TOWN! It is a shot at the people making the decisions. Every girl just wants to work hard, play hockey, and have success.

History of class A state champs...
2009 Blake vs Warroad. Class A talent or AA?
2008 Alexandria vs. Breck. Breck = A? (Go Alex!)
2007 Blake vs. Farmington. Blake = A?
2006 South St. Paul vs. Warroad. Class A or AA (SSP won AA the year before, one year later need to move down to A)?
2005 Holy Angels. Notice a trend yet?
2004 Benilde St. Margerets. How about now?
2003 Blake
2002 Benilde St. Margerets.

So to increase opportunity for smaller schools and to help grow the sport there have been 8 tourney's prior to this year. The winners have been
-6 out of 8 private schools
-1 the AA champ the year prior

So that's increasing opportunity? And I'll be amazed if it isn't a Breck v. Warroad final this year. Can't imagine why some of us have a problem with the decisions of some schools' AD's....

Warroad just bumped Chisago lakes 11-1. Shots 55-17. Close call for the Warriors [/b]

Why is this a knock on the schools AD's? They have plenty of items on their plates as well and I don't think that Warroad's girls hockey team being unbelievable ONE year (might I add without one state championship) was enough to jump them up to AA. I would say let the girls win a state championship before we talk about how they don't belong, but they are just playing where they are assigned by the MSHSL. I would also think it would be a collective decision made among a group of administrators along with coaches to come to an agreement about reclassification.

[Ms. Conduct]

Sorry if I'm missing your point (or deliberately ignoring it because I think it's ridiculous to attack anyone's character, especially coaches who practically donate their time to help young girls achieve their goals and who might have very little say in what Class they can participate in...)

I was simply trying to point out that, while upsetting, unfair, or whatever else you want to call it, there is no point belittling the performance of high school athletes in the process of criticizing something they have no control over (even though we get you're really trying to take a shot at the adults in control). If you want to advocate for a change in the Class A/AA system, do it without trying to shame the people who are constrained by the current situation -- calling them classless or the perpetrators of humiliation isn't really going to help your case.

I think if Roseville was in the position of Breck and Warroad (even though I know they aren't and probably won't ever be) they would have a hard time finding something better to do than working on their systems and have a hard time telling their player with five points on the year not to score in the biggest game of her life so far...


I understand your argument that some of the Class A teams simply possess a higher caliber of talent and belong in a different league. But there are a lot of factors -- even some that you might not know about -- that go into making these kinds of decisions and once the administrations at these schools (who might not have girls hockey at the top of their agenda) finally get around to reaching an agreement to opt up, it might be the wrong commitment to make for the team. It's not a perfect system and while your suggestion has some merit, people can poke holes in that system as well...if you really want to change it, do something productive and positive about it

Expanding to two tournaments HAS increased the opportunity for those schools "who wouldn't have a shot" at a one-class tournament (even if the system wasn't entirely well-thought out). Now those schools have to do their part to develop their talent and take advantage of that opportunity. Let the administrators duke out who belongs where. Its our job to relax, praise the participants, and enjoy the tournament(s).

[mn miracle man]

Sorry if I'm missing your point (or deliberately ignoring it because I think it's ridiculous to attack anyone's character, especially coaches who practically donate their time to help young girls achieve their goals and who might have very little say in what Class they can participate in...)

I was simply trying to point out that, while upsetting, unfair, or whatever else you want to call it, there is no point belittling the performance of high school athletes in the process of criticizing something they have no control over (even though we get you're really trying to take a shot at the adults in control). If you want to advocate for a change in the Class A/AA system, do it without trying to shame the people who are constrained by the current situation -- calling them classless or the perpetrators of humiliation isn't really going to help your case.

I think if Roseville was in the position of Breck and Warroad (even though I know they aren't and probably won't ever be) they would have a hard time finding something better to do than working on their systems and have a hard time telling their player with five points on the year not to score in the biggest game of her life so far...


I understand your argument that some of the Class A teams simply possess a higher caliber of talent and belong in a different league. But there are a lot of factors -- even some that you might not know about -- that go into making these kinds of decisions and once the administrations at these schools (who might not have girls hockey at the top of their agenda) finally get around to reaching an agreement to opt up, it might be the wrong commitment to make for the team. It's not a perfect system and while your suggestion has some merit, people can poke holes in that system as well...if you really want to change it, do something productive and positive about it

Expanding to two tournaments HAS increased the opportunity for those schools "who wouldn't have a shot" at a one-class tournament (even if the system wasn't entirely well-thought out). Now those schools have to do their part to develop their talent and take advantage of that opportunity. Let the administrators duke out who belongs where. Its our job to relax, praise the participants, and enjoy the tournament(s).

Very well said, if someone honestly cares as much as they make it seem by some of their comments, then maybe a "heart felt" letter to the Breck and Warroad ADs would be deemed necessary.

[hockeyfan21]

um... coaches have a say in whether they want to opt up or not.

Again, who is belittling athletes? Have I mentioned them at all in a negative way? If that is your interpretation, read more closely I'm attacking two groups

A- private schools (who by the way do not develop talent from the ground up but instead get recruits, hire coaches and build programs off of the hard work of communities who do develop talent. Think Breck or any other private school spends one dime on youth hockey? Think they fund raise to get their U-8 numbers up by offering low cost hockey? Think they train youth coaches so their programs in 10 years can compete? Think they worry about what to do with girls who don't make the team?)
B- perennial powerhouse programs who do not opt up when they have a proven record of excellence

Very well said, if someone honestly cares as much as they make it seem by some of their comments, then maybe a "heart felt" letter to the Breck and Warroad ADs would be deemed necessary.

You honestly think that coaches, parents, community members, etc. from other programs haven't been fighting this stuff for decades? Not just in hockey but in all sports. Why do we have transfer rules? Why is it a big fight every time the legislature wants to get involved?

do it without trying to shame the people who are constrained by the current situation

Who at a private school or a small school is constrained? They get to choose if they want A or AA. Simple.

if you really want to change it, do something productive and positive about it

How do you know what I do or don't do outside of the 30 minutes a day I look at forums? I, along with many others have been railing against this system since day one. This is a place to vent and discuss among others who have an interest in girls hockey.

Expanding to two tournaments HAS increased the opportunity for those schools "who wouldn't have a shot" at a one-class tournament

It has given them the opportunity to compete for 3rd, consolation, MAYBE a run for second...
Again 8 A tourneys, 6 private school champs, 1 AA champ that OPTED DOWN after their state tourney win. Nice opportunity for Chisolm or New Ulm to compete.

Let the administrators duke out who belongs where

Because public policy never benefits from public input...

[cigar]

why not have 25 classes so we can find a class where the worst team in state only gets beat by 9 instead of 10????

[hockeyfan21]

or have just one?

[royals dad]

In class A for the last two years in the 1st round the #1 and #2 seeds out scored their opponents 51 to 1 (that's 4 games total). Last year in round 2 it was 14 to 2 (2 games).

That is bad hockey and an embarrassment to the HS tourney anyway you look at it and it should be fixed so that the overall #1 team in the state isn't playing the #60 overall or we should go back to one class.

You can't base a class split in girls hockey on enrollment size as it has little to do with the strength of a program. We should be seeing the type of game that we saw in game 3 yesterday the whole 1st day in class A.

[hockeya1a]

In class A for the last two years in the 1st round the #1 and #2 seeds out scored their opponents 51 to 1 (that's 4 games total). Last year in round 2 it was 14 to 2 (2 games).

That is bad hockey and an embarrassment to the HS tourney anyway you look at it and it should be fixed so that the overall #1 team in the state isn't playing the #60 overall or we should go back to one class.

You can't base a class split in girls hockey on enrollment size as it has little to do with the strength of a program. We should be seeing the type of game that we saw in game 3 yesterday the whole 1st day in class A.

One way to possibly bring up “A” competition would be to make the classes equal in numbers,
I believe "and please feel free to correct me" 70 some teams in “AA”, and about 50 in “A”
if it were 60 and 60 "equal in numbers" then the top of the bottom should get a little stronger. But I know there will always be the Warroad’s and the Brecks unless they opted up, and if that happened then a team or two would have to move down to keep them equal. I also do like the 2 year stint instead of the 4 year but I suppose they do that to keep it easy on the administration.

[ghr]

[- private schools (who by the way do not develop talent from the ground up but instead get recruits, hire coaches and build programs off of the hard work of communities who do develop talent. Think Breck or any other private school spends one dime on youth hockey? Think they fund raise to get their U-8 numbers up by offering low cost hockey? Think they train youth coaches so their programs in 10 years can compete? Think they worry about what to do with girls who don't make the team?) ]

Be careful what you ask for...In Massachusetts, girls public high school is a tier below girls private/prep high school. The high end players play prep there. It reduces the number of girls who can play at the highest level; in some cases purely for financial reasons or number of prep openings. That is why the registration numbers for MA drop off dramatically after u-12, while in MN they don't. Just saying...

[hockeyfan21]

Be careful what you ask for...

Very good point. Still frustrating that's all.

I know there is no perfect system. But it doesn't hurt to keep to trying to improve what we have.

[slapshot18]

All of this can be simply solved. Just make the schools that recruit into one class. That would be all of the privates and schools such as Warroad. Any open enroll or suspicious move by a family (Hopkins) would qualify as a recruit.
Then and only then will we develop hockey for all and have a balanced tournament.

[iceage]

All of this can be simply solved. Just make the schools that recruit into one class. That would be all of the privates and schools such as Warroad. Any open enroll or suspicious move by a family (Hopkins) would qualify as a recruit.
Then and only then will we develop hockey for all and have a balanced tournament.

Don't forget that 98% of all private students are transfer students. Hockey is not the prime reason for going to a private school. Under your rules we would need lawyers for all transfers that involved a student playing any sport. Remember the cardinal rule: Good athletes gravitate to good programs. Build a good program and they will flock to you. Athletes want exposure.

[mn miracle man]

All of this can be simply solved. Just make the schools that recruit into one class. That would be all of the privates and schools such as Warroad. Any open enroll or suspicious move by a family (Hopkins) would qualify as a recruit.
Then and only then will we develop hockey for all and have a balanced tournament.

Don't forget that 98% of all private students are transfer students. Hockey is not the prime reason for going to a private school. Under your rules we would need lawyers for all transfers that involved a student playing any sport. Remember the cardinal rule: Good athletes gravitate to good programs. Build a good program and they will flock to you. Athletes want exposure.

Thus I believe this "cardinal rule" would be the sole reason Warroad has so many "recruits." Players want to play for a winner, they will go on their own, they don't need to be recruited.

[inthestands]

If you look at the other hockey venues, example the Olympics and so on, it would be difficult to find one that doesn't have a wide range of abilities between the few teams to earn their way in.

This is just one of those areas that will never be perfected, and good teams will not make the program due to sections or what ever.

No matter what alterations are made, there will always be some gaps in skill sets.

[cigar]

end the socialist bs where everyone has to get a trophy and go back to one tourney........

maybe it would do the kids and the adults some good to learn how to fail and learning that success is a direct result from it....

[hockeypuck9]

The sad part of this is because of the decisions of the adults, the kids from Warroad or Breck, whoever wins, will forever have to live with the question of "What if?". What if we had played AA? I wonder if we were really the best? They weren't given the chance to prove it. Sad.

Sad, too, in the semi-final game that the Warroad kids didn't have to test their internal limits, from which so much is learned, to get to the championship. It looked like a skate in the park. In the end, it won't mean what it could if they haven't had to truly go out and battle for it.

[inthestands]

The sad part of this is because of the decisions of the adults, the kids from Warroad or Breck, whoever wins, will forever have to live with the question of "What if?". What if we had played AA? I wonder if we were really the best? They weren't given the chance to prove it. Sad.

Sad, too, in the semi-final game that the Warroad kids didn't have to test their internal limits, from which so much is learned, to get to the championship. It looked like a skate in the park. In the end, it won't mean what it could if they haven't had to truly go out and battle for it.

I don't think any of those kids for one minute will wonder about "what could have been"..

They go, they play, they work hard, enjoy the experience, and head home for either graduation or preparing for next season.

[hockeypuck9]

The sad part of this is because of the decisions of the adults, the kids from Warroad or Breck, whoever wins, will forever have to live with the question of "What if?". What if we had played AA? I wonder if we were really the best? They weren't given the chance to prove it. Sad.

Sad, too, in the semi-final game that the Warroad kids didn't have to test their internal limits, from which so much is learned, to get to the championship. It looked like a skate in the park. In the end, it won't mean what it could if they haven't had to truly go out and battle for it.

I don't think any of those kids for one minute will wonder about "what could have been"..

They go, they play, they work hard, enjoy the experience, and head home for either graduation or preparing for next season.

Not right away, but in the years to come. . .