DID THE REFS ACTUALLY BLOW A GAME????

[Wildwood]

I was at the Sartell -Fergus game on Saturday and was very dissapointed in the way this has all transpired. As a fan of the game of hockey I must say it was an absolute blast to watch a game of that nature. Although it didnt end the way I wanted it to I would love to see every game played with the intensity and emotion that was in that rink. Fergus may not have officially come out a winner but I think everyone knows that the arena was full of winners that night and they should be very proud. All those players should stand tall and keep an eye on the future because a great rivalry has just begun.

[lxhockey]

If the MSHSL doesn't man-up and over turn the game, why doesn't Sartell just concede the game thus giving FF the next playoff spot? Maybe Sartell could improve their questioned character and awe everyone with what great sportsmanship that would be.

[deucereppin]

Really?! Concede their spot. I think its safe to say that they won't do that. I agree that all this is unfortunate but at this time they are not going to change anything so we have to move on. Friday should be a good game see you at the MAC!

[pondpucker13]

Junior,
If you are going to post the ref's names then you had better be a man and post who you are! Even though it was the wrong, call there is no need to post their names. Why don't you become a ref?

I'm not saying it's right but aren't the referees listed on the box score anyway?

[deucereppin]

Yeah you could get the refs names off the RinkWriter scoresheet. Still I wouldnt have done it.

[Wildwood]

I heard rumors that the official score was changed to FF2-S1 with S moving on due to human error ??can anyone verify that

[SiouxRecruit]

I heard rumors that the official score was changed to FF2-S1 with S moving on due to human error ??can anyone verify that

Doubt it....and this whole thing with the refs names...honestly... ya probably not morally correct, although they are EASY to get....not that big of a deal....the big deal is this call they made....it was at best horrible....know the rules....section officials....comon...and that rule....isn't that obvious for even an average SPECTATOR?

[defense]

Interesting reading on the exact subject: go to www.craigolsonsports.com and read the "Open letter to the MSHSL".

[Snap Shot]

Well written letter.

I sent an email inquiry to David Stead, the Executive Director of MSHSL on Monday. I have not even received the courtesy of a reply.

[gaborik]

I heard rumors that the official score was changed to FF2-S1 with S moving on due to human error ??can anyone verify that

i heard that rumor too

so whoever scores the most goals isn't always going to win

[KICKED-IN-THE-PRIVATES]

i am a parent of one of the senior otters-and we all know it was a goal and should have counted. however, it didn't. our coaches have asked us to accept it and be proud of our boys. that we are. it was a great game. i am terribly disappointed about the lack of knowlegde on the refs part and therefore, bad call, however i am just as diappointed with the "running" of our goalie-carr. it was obvious what the sartell players were doing-they did it last year to hemingway. you can say "that is part of the game or tough-life's unfair and the refs didn't call any interference on their part-so get over it". well i say, if you have to play that cheap and unfair to win a game and don't trust your natural skills and talents to win, then in the game of life-sartell is the loser. character will take you a lot further in life than a win on the scoreboard and there again-fergus is the winner. way to go boys and coaches. i am so proud of you all. thanks for a great-well played game. GO ALEX

I feel bad for the Fergus kids, they really did get the shaft. But calling the Sartell kids life losers? Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house Mr. Redneck. What about the 10-12 adults (I hope they were not parents, though they sure "appreared to be" chanting "season's over" over at the end of the Little Falls - Fergus blow-out. That's right, it was adults taunting the players, not students. Talk about "Life-Losers"....

Good Luck to both Sartell and Alex!!!

[redneck13]

kicked -in the privates. Unless you know the long history between fergus falls and little falls I would suggest you not even bring that subject into this forum. It belongs in a whole new forum of its own !!!!

[SCOUT 707]

Defense-

That was a great find. That is very true so many questions will get unanswered. It’s too bad the board don’t have the balls to do anything about it. It like what he said if it doesn’t have to do with a cities team, or money they could care less. I would be willing to bet that if that was a game between two double A teams from the cities there would be something done. It is ashame that those seniors got shorted out of another game and a chance to make it to the State Tournament.

[mulefarm]

Why do you have to make this into a metro vs outstate? The bad calls have happened for many years all over the state and I doubt they ever went back and changed the results after the game was completed. Does anyone know of a situation were they changed the winner in any sport at the Mn high school level?

[Trojanhorse]

I did not see the play, but the refs might be right.

If the puck went crossbar-goalie-net, it counts.

if the puck went Crossbar-crease-then goalie knocked it in (supplied the momentum of the puck into the net,) it was dead and is no goal.

The extreme example of "no goal" would be if the puck lay in the crease dead for several seconds and the goalie accidently kicked it in as he skated away. The most obvious example of "goal" is when it its the crossbar, then deflects off the goalie before it even hits the ice.

In gray-area cases, like this one seems to be, the refs have to decide if the puck was dead or not. Its a judgment call. NHL refs use video to get it right. High School refs, even in big games, have to do the best they can based on the very fast live action.

This was a penalty shot in sudden death of a playoff game. It must be on video somewhere! C-mon, parents, upload that baby to youtube so we can all have an opinon.

[gobears80]

It is quite obvious that the people who want this to be overturned do not have a complete grasp on what it would take to do so as well as the precedent that would be set. If in fact there is a "no Protest" rule that would have to be amended and if it were I'm pretty sure it could not influence any calls prior to the amendment or we would have protests coming out of the "woodwork". secondly, If you could protest a call I'm sure that the protest could not come from fans, parents, or even open letters from a sports announcer. The "no Protest" rule is in place for a reason and I respect the MSHSL for having it in place and standing firm on that rule. I also believe the MSHSL is already making adjustments so something like this wont happen again. This isn't something the MSHSL is ignoring and doesnt have the integrity to change. It is however, a governing body that is abiding by a set of rules that have been put in place for a very good reason.

[gobears80]

It is quite obvious that the people who want this to be overturned do not have a complete grasp on what it would take to do so as well as the precedent that would be set. If in fact there is a "no Protest" rule that would have to be amended and if it were I'm pretty sure it could not influence any calls prior to the amendment or we would have protests coming out of the "woodwork". secondly, If you could protest a call I'm sure that the protest could not come from fans, parents, or even open letters from a sports announcer. The "no Protest" rule is in place for a reason and I respect the MSHSL for having it in place and standing firm on that rule. I also believe the MSHSL is already making adjustments so something like this wont happen again. This isn't something the MSHSL is ignoring and doesnt have the integrity to change. It is however, a governing body that is abiding by a set of rules that have been put in place for a very good reason.

[number 9]

kicked -in the privates. Unless you know the long history between fergus falls and little falls I would suggest you not even bring that subject into this forum. It belongs in a whole new forum of its own !!!!

you may be right redneck, but i believe you were the one that started questioning character (sartells) here in this forum first. i think you threw the first stone. it stings a bit to have your character questioned doesnt it,especially as you sit in your glass house.

[SiouxRecruit]

It is quite obvious that the people who want this to be overturned do not have a complete grasp on what it would take to do so as well as the precedent that would be set. If in fact there is a "no Protest" rule that would have to be amended and if it were I'm pretty sure it could not influence any calls prior to the amendment or we would have protests coming out of the "woodwork". secondly, If you could protest a call I'm sure that the protest could not come from fans, parents, or even open letters from a sports announcer. The "no Protest" rule is in place for a reason and I respect the MSHSL for having it in place and standing firm on that rule. I also believe the MSHSL is already making adjustments so something like this wont happen again. This isn't something the MSHSL is ignoring and doesnt have the integrity to change. It is however, a governing body that is abiding by a set of rules that have been put in place for a very good reason.

It's also quite obvious you assume this, considering some people just think it should be overturned and nothing more, some probably could care less about the politics in the system

[gobears80]

It is quite obvious that the people who want this to be overturned do not have a complete grasp on what it would take to do so as well as the precedent that would be set. If in fact there is a "no Protest" rule that would have to be amended and if it were I'm pretty sure it could not influence any calls prior to the amendment or we would have protests coming out of the "woodwork". secondly, If you could protest a call I'm sure that the protest could not come from fans, parents, or even open letters from a sports announcer. The "no Protest" rule is in place for a reason and I respect the MSHSL for having it in place and standing firm on that rule. I also believe the MSHSL is already making adjustments so something like this wont happen again. This isn't something the MSHSL is ignoring and doesnt have the integrity to change. It is however, a governing body that is abiding by a set of rules that have been put in place for a very good reason.

It's also quite obvious you assume this, considering some people just think it should be overturned and nothing more, some probably could care less about the politics in the system

I don't think it is about "POLITICS" I do think it has everything to do with a rule that exists -- and as far as me saying "that people that want this overturned do not have a grasp on what that would involve" is an assumption/opinion based on what has been written on this forum which has led me to believe they think it is as simple as the MSHSL saying "the refs made a mistake and we will overturn it" It doesn't work like that!!!

[KICKED-IN-THE-PRIVATES]

kicked -in the privates. Unless you know the long history between fergus falls and little falls I would suggest you not even bring that subject into this forum. It belongs in a whole new forum of its own !!!!

you may be right redneck, but i believe you were the one that started questioning character (sartells) here in this forum first. i think you threw the first stone. it stings a bit to have your character questioned doesnt it,especially as you sit in your glass house.

Thank You #9, my point exactly. And yes Mr. Redneck, I know the history...

As I said, I honestly feel bad for the Fergus Falls kids, that victory should have been theirs. This shouldn't be about parents, or a player(s) character, it's about an extremly unfortunate missed call. It should be Alex vs. Fergus in the Finals, and the way the Otters were playing it would have been one heck of a great hockey game. Now we get to watch Alex vs. Sartell. Focus on changing what you can...

[Hockey_fan11]

I did not see the play, but the refs might be right.

If the puck went crossbar-goalie-net, it counts.

if the puck went Crossbar-crease-then goalie knocked it in (supplied the momentum of the puck into the net,) it was dead and is no goal.

The extreme example of "no goal" would be if the puck lay in the crease dead for several seconds and the goalie accidently kicked it in as he skated away. The most obvious example of "goal" is when it its the crossbar, then deflects off the goalie before it even hits the ice.

In gray-area cases, like this one seems to be, the refs have to decide if the puck was dead or not. Its a judgment call. NHL refs use video to get it right. High School refs, even in big games, have to do the best they can based on the very fast live action.

This was a penalty shot in sudden death of a playoff game. It must be on video somewhere! C-mon, parents, upload that baby to youtube so we can all have an opinon.

Trojan, this is what I was saying before, from where I was standing (along the glass at the penalty shot end) the puck hit the cross bar, came down outside the net, in the crease, rolled forward a few inches until it hit the goalie and bounced into the net. Had it went crossbar to goalie and in, it's a goal, but I saw it hit the ground first. I'm sure it was a judgement call on the refs part. All three officials got together and discussed it for quite a while before they confirmed the initial call of "no goal".

I also see no way MSHSL would overturn the outcome of a game, it would open a Pandora's Box, for instance, in another overtime game, 2 on 1 breakout, skater without the puck goes off sides, team scores and wins, ref misses the offsides, but dad has it on tape. Should they overturn this and pick up the game from that point on? Hate to use a soccer analogy but in the World Cup soccer qualifer, the ref missed a hand ball that led to France beating Ireland 2-1, call was clearly missed but did FIFA oveturn the game, NO. Or Joe Mauers hit against the Yankees in the playoffs that was clearly fair, but ruled foul. I'm sure we could all find many situations were a missed call may or may not have cost a team the win.

Many here are saying the refs did not know the rule, perhaps they knew the rules saw it like I did and made a judgement call. you can argue as long as you want whether or not their judgement was correct, but I don't think it's fair to say they did not no the rules.

It was a great game, both teams should be proud of their effort and I wish Sartell good luck Friday at the MAC against Alex, should be a great game.

[fivehole628]

i am a parent of one of the senior otters-and we all know it was a goal and should have counted. however, it didn't. our coaches have asked us to accept it and be proud of our boys. that we are. it was a great game. i am terribly disappointed about the lack of knowlegde on the refs part and therefore, bad call, however i am just as diappointed with the "running" of our goalie-carr. it was obvious what the sartell players were doing-they did it last year to hemingway. you can say "that is part of the game or tough-life's unfair and the refs didn't call any interference on their part-so get over it". well i say, if you have to play that cheap and unfair to win a game and don't trust your natural skills and talents to win, then in the game of life-sartell is the loser. character will take you a lot further in life than a win on the scoreboard and there again-fergus is the winner. way to go boys and coaches. i am so proud of you all. thanks for a great-well played game. GO ALEX

I feel bad for the Fergus kids, they really did get the shaft. But calling the Sartell kids life losers? Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house Mr. Redneck. What about the 10-12 adults (I hope they were not parents, though they sure "appreared to be" chanting "season's over" over at the end of the Little Falls - Fergus blow-out. That's right, it was adults taunting the players, not students. Talk about "Life-Losers"....

Good Luck to both Sartell and Alex!!!

Your calling Sartell life losers? I work at the Sartell Arena and was at the game standing in the penalty box. After the game I was talking to my boss (arena manger obviously) who said that a Fergus Falls parent/fan had to be escorted out of the building because of language and physical threats towards a Sartell fan. From what my boss told me, two arena staff workers had to step in and restrain the Fergus fan.

As the arena manager was leading him out the door, the Fergus fan apparently slammed the door 2 inches from the arena managers face... talk about no class

Oh and Fergus parents... how was your booze cruise from Fergus to Sartell?? Oops... i don't think i was supposed to say that in public

[goldy313]

NFHS Ice Hockey Rules 2009-2010
SECTION 7 PENALTY SHOT
ART. 1 . . . A penalty shot is awarded to restore a lost scoring opportunity.
ART. 2 . . . If the offense for which the penalty shot was awarded was one that normally would incur a minor penalty, the non-offending team may, prior to the penalty shot, elect that the minor penalty be assessed to the offending player or team in lieu of the penalty shot.
ART. 3 . . . The penalty shot shall be taken by the player fouled. If no player has been fouled, the shot may be taken by any player of the nonoffending side who is not serving a penalty when play is stopped for the penalty shot (captain’s choice of players).
ART. 4 . . . The puck shall be placed at the center faceoff spot. At the referee’s instruction, the attacking player shall begin toward the goal, keeping in motion toward the goal until the puck is shot or has crossed the goal line extended. Only one shot is permitted.
ART. 5 . . . The goalkeeper shall remain in the goal crease until the attacking player has touched the puck. The goalkeeper may attempt to stop the puck in any manner except by throwing his stick. If a foul is committed by the goalkeeper during the try and the try is unsuccessful, another penalty shot is awarded.
ART. 6 . . . If the player awarded the penalty shot is injured, the try may be taken by any teammate who is not serving a penalty.
ART. 7 . . . If the attacking player commits a foul, that player may be permitted to take the shot before going to the penalty box.
ART. 8 . . . All players shall move to their respective bench areas and remain quiet until the shot has been completed. If a player other than the defending goalkeeper causes the penalty shot by another player to fail, a second attempt shall be awarded, and a misconduct penalty assessed to the player who interfered with or distracted the shooter.
ART. 9 . . . If a goal is scored from a penalty shot, a further penalty to the
offending player shall be applied if the offense for which the penalty shot was awarded was such as to incur a major, disqualification or misconduct penalty. In that case, the penalty prescribed for the particular offense shall be imposed.

4.7.4 SITUATION: On a penalty shot, the puck (a) hits the post, hits the back of the goalkeeper’s leg and enters the goal, or (b) hits the glass or boards, hits the goalkeeper’s leg and enters the goal.
RULING: In (a) goal is scored. In (b) no goal is scored, since puck crossed the goal line extended, which nullifies the play.

You're confusing the case book with the rule book, they're two different things and anyone who has taken a number of MSHSL rules tests will affirm that at times the case book can be contradictory to the rule book. In this case the case book rule may be in contradiction to article 4 of the penalty shot rule. There is nothing in the rule book (or at least posted) allowing for a shot off the post then off the goalie to be considered a goal, just an example out of the case book which is not the rule book.

Had the ruling went the other way I'm sure Sartell would have a legitimate beef as there is no question the intial shot did not go in as fired only after being redirected twice did the puck end up in the goal.

[goldy313]

edit * double post*