Breck Wins State Again - Will they move to AA/

[curtiscurve]

I believe he WAS arguing that by saying "every bit as good." That to me means scores, depth, talent, and A's #1 team compared to AA's #1 and A's #20 team to AA's #20...that's just me though.

You are reading too much into what I said. This all started by me saying that more public schools in the class A tourney would help attendance. Someone responded by saying that the A attendance suffers based on the quality of hockey. My argument is the games on the A side of the tournament are as good of hockey as the ones you see at the AA side therefore should have no affect on the attendance. I know that #20 on the A side is not comparable to #20 on the AA side. I am saying that come tourney time, the A side has as good of hockey as the AA side. By that I mean the games themselves and the players involved. And as far as not putting any stock into the Htown/EP game based on the ice conditions? Come on, they both had to play in those conditions. Stop the excuses and just admit that the gap between A and AA (as far as the top dogs are considered) is shrinking and class A hockey is not Tier II hockey.

[BBB]

ok now that you clarified that you were only talking top dogs (who happen to be private, have job openings at window factories, etc) and you were talking about a closing gap between the two classes when you said every bit as good, I'll agree with you.
I do not think when teams like Virginia or Hibbing come down to X its's going to be very good hockey. (A Mtka fan compared Hibbing and Virginia to a better than avg JV team after only playing hard for a period in each game and outscoring them 15-0). Hutchinson got the 1 seed in their section with 13 losses. A decent team from 8A is staying home and STA or Mahtomedi are going to knock each other off. Yes the Final 4 teams should have some good games. I will agree with that. Do they seed the top 4 in class A?

[HShockeywatcher]

Well, your guess is wrong. The school was put in the class based on enrollment.

Take a look around. What sections that don't have private schools would get them?

My Dear Lord, you could not have misunderstood what I said by a wider margin. I am well aware STA was placed into A, but their enrollment figure is skewed given it's an all-boys school. Again, the question is how many schools with an enrollment of 1,100 (similar to an all-boys school at 550) would remain in Class A?

And the idea discussed was keeping all the privates in A and if they were indeed limited to just a few sections the privates would not be happy.

It has nothing to do with being happy. It has to do with geography.

There would be no section 8 private school. And look around at the geography, with the exception of Lourdes and Marshall, most of the private schools are in the metro near each other. Happy or not, most would be together.

How did the Holy Angels/Hill Murray state final sell out in 2002? How bout Holy Angels/Moorhead in 2005? Cretin/Rapids in 2006? Roseau/Rapids in 2007?

Because the game is sold out before the games even start.

Wow, way to continue to make my points for me...why aren't the Class A games sold out already? The hockey will be just as good. People don't respect the tournament as much. Period.

You must have meant competitive...I thought you meant 'as good.'

No one is saying (or at least they shouldn't be) that the class as a whole is as good, simply that the top teams are just as good most years and the quality of hockey is just as good.

With no disrespect to the teams playing in them, 3 of the last 4 state finals in AA were not very exciting. An above average team upset their way to the final and got clobbered. In those 3 years the Class A final was much better and the year before (2005) the quality was comparable.

Do they seed the top 4 in class A?

Yes, they seed the top 4 in both classes.

[defense]

Why doesn't Class A sell out???????
Answer: it is called Class A and has to compete with Class AA.
I won't argue that the two tournements as a whole get the same quality of hockey, the MSHSL screws that up every time they make section assignments. There are more low end teams in class A, there are going to be...class A is for the small schools, #s are a good start to success (not needed but it sure helps.) Since there are more low end teams in class A, there are more upper end teams in AA. The top teams in Class A are every bit as good as the top teams in Class A, anyone can lie to themselves that's fine, truth is truth.
In the end it comes down to the fact that we now have two classes. The one class system lasted very long, and for good reason....arguably it needs to be reinstated.

[F14]

I started this post with a specific question about Breck.


They won 8-0 tonight vs Orono.


What do the Breck fans think of them specifically moving up?

Is there any talk of it?

What does Les Larson think?

[Slap Shot]

It has nothing to do with being happy. It has to do with geography.

Of course geography is a factor in sectional placement, but that's neither here nor there. The suggestion was to keep all privates in class A and my point was you'd then saturate the metro A sections or alternatively illegitimately spread those schools around to other sections.

Wow, way to continue to make my points for me...why aren't the Class A games sold out already? The hockey will be just as good. People don't respect the tournament as much. Period.

That doesn't make your point, because team for team and game for game the hockey just isn't as good. It might be competitive because most of the teams are relatively weaker, but that's not the same thing. If it was just as good of hockey the games would sell more tickets. It has nothing to do with respect and everything to do with the knowledge of the fans that are experienced enough to know the difference in the overall quality of play.

[moose27]

[quote=That doesn't make your point, because team for team and game for game the hockey just isn't as good. It might be competitive because most of the teams are relatively weaker, but that's not the same thing. If it was just as good of hockey the games would sell more tickets. It has nothing to do with respect and everything to do with the knowledge of the fans that are experienced enough to know the difference in the overall quality of play.[/quote]


Knowledgeable fans? What? Are you kidding me. I bet 90% of the fans that go to the State Hockey Tournament have never scene other teams play more than once during the course of the year, excluding their team at the tournament.

Fans don't go to the A because there is a perception AA is going to be better hockey. Is AA tournament a deeper tournament. Yes and it should be!! However, I would take any of the top 5 teams in class A, be extremely competitive, and have as good as a shot at winning the AA tournament as any. Breck, STA, Warroad, Hermantown, and Mahtomedi. All five of these teams would be top 15 in state A or AA. Four out of the 5 should be making their way to the X. The pool of talent in the A over the last couple of years compared to the AA has actually been better in the championship game. There have been some pretty big upsets in AA.


This is exactly why i am a huge fan of bringing back a one class 16 team tournament. I would love to see a Warroad vs. Jefferson or Edina first round match up. Or a Breck vs. EP matchup. Ya we would get some lopsided games in the first round but what is the difference if you get STA or Breck beating up on some mediocre class A team or an EP or Edina doing it?

[HShockeywatcher]

The pool of talent in the A over the last couple of years compared to the AA has actually been better in the championship game. There have been some pretty big upsets in AA.

This what I have been talking about.
If you are honestly going to try to tell me that the level of hockey is better in Eden Prairie/Moorhead than Breck/Warroad last year, Roseau/Rapids than Hermantown/Marshall three years ago, Cretin/Rapids than St Thomas/Marshall four years ago or that Warroad/Totino wasn't just as good as Holy Angels/Moorhead you are kidding yourself.

Yes, the overall teams in the class are better, but when you just look at the teams that make state, that is not true.

I posted this in another thread:

Not all states have a system where every team makes the playoffs. I doubt it would ever happen in MN, but this is a system that would give us one class.

16 conferences, regions, districts (whatever name you choose).
13 of them with 10 teams, 3 with 9 teams. You play everyone twice. Top 4 in your group go onto the state playoffs.

64 team state plays, the best teams in state, everyone is represented, etc, etc.

Thoughts?

[Walter Sojack]

Brecks succes seems to come in 4 year cycles. Until they can keep sustained success at the A level, a move to AA is not warranted.

[moose27]

[quote="Walter Sojack"]Brecks succes seems to come in 4 year cycles. Until they can keep [i]sustained [/i]success at the A level, a move to AA is not warranted.[/quote]

I agree however what is the point where they do make the transition to AA? You honestly can't expect them to be great every year. They would be no different then BSM, AHA, or Hill!! Breck, TG, Blake, Mahtomedi, and STA should all grab their sacs and move up. Better yet form your own league and do a AAA private school hockey league. Bye Bye HS Hockey!!

[starmvp]

Brecks succes seems to come in 4 year cycles. Until they can keep sustained success at the A level, a move to AA is not warranted.

I agree however what is the point where they do make the transition to AA? You honestly can't expect them to be great every year. They would be no different then BSM, AHA, or Hill!! Breck, TG, Blake, Mahtomedi, and STA should all grab their sacs and move up. Better yet form your own league and do a AAA private school hockey league. Bye Bye HS Hockey!!

Uhh, maybe the first half of your statement...

[curtiscurve]

Brecks succes seems to come in 4 year cycles. Until they can keep sustained success at the A level, a move to AA is not warranted.

I agree however what is the point where they do make the transition to AA? You honestly can't expect them to be great every year. They would be no different then BSM, AHA, or Hill!! Breck, TG, Blake, Mahtomedi, and STA should all grab their sacs and move up. Better yet form your own league and do a AAA private school hockey league. Bye Bye HS Hockey!!

Why do you have to lump Mahtomedi in with the privates? I love what they have done these past few years. They are everyone's favorite since they upset STA last year in the Finals! They are right where they belong at single A.

[Goldy23]

I started this post with a specific question about Breck.


They won 8-0 tonight vs Orono.


What do the Breck fans think of them specifically moving up?

Is there any talk of it?

What does Les Larson think?

The answer is no, they won't move up. 1. The school has always been against it as they are a college prep school, not a Hockey school. 2. The 4 year cycle comment is accurate. The school has went from bringing in to many "hockey kids" to not having enough players to fill out two teams as was the case in 05/06 and then back again to what is there now. This happens when you bring in more than a dozen very good hockey kids in 06 and 6 more in 07. My guess is that after this year they will fall back to being a good team vs the great team they have been the past two years as they seem to be losing some key players to other programs (Mork and Besse this year) and many of the parents are once again up in arms about bringing in so many hockey kids that take spots away from kids who have been at the school since the begining. This was the same thing that happened after the 04 Championship.

As for what this coach thinks, I'm not really sure that it matters as its questionable how much support he has inside the school or from the parents.

[eastside hockey]

How many kids who are looking to be part of the big dance, whould actually stay at the private schools if the ones whos enrollment was low enough to be class A were forced to be class A. I like this theory of not allowing them to opt up. If the question of recruiting players for hockey could ever be answered, this would be the tell all road. Whould Hill Murray continue to get the east metro top A Bantams if they didnt have the opportunity to prove themselves in the AA Big Show. In my opinion, you would see less of the local youth club talent migrating to perenial private school power houses. this is not meant to be all inclusive to Hill Murray, it was just my example. I do believe less transfers would be taking place though.

[goldy313]

I don't know, it still happens in St. Cloud, Duluth, and Rochester which all have AA public schools and A private schools. Not to mention in Mendota Heights or Golden Valley where they have some pretty good A private schools and draw from a multi million population base.

Under your theory, call it the Apple Valley theory or Hopkins theory, kids would still migrate to programs perceived as better. Which they do anyhow at those schools. I doubt class in hockey has much to do with where kids end up.

That said, I think STA would even get more high end kids if they went to AA as then they'd be in direct competition with Cretin, Hill, AHA, for some very good hockey players looking for a good private school.

[dabears344]

In regards to breck vs STA and who should move up here is what I think,

Breck has some where around 450 students.

STA has 700 but they arent they all boys? If this is true STA should be thought of as a 1400 student school. And if you combine this with their level of success their is no question they should be AA

Breck on the other hand has roughly 225 boys in the their high school. If they want to move up then its good for them but I think based on their school size that they are a good fit for Class A. There is nothing wrong with having a powerhouse in Class A but STA in class A just doesnt make sense to me. Assuming im correct about Hill Murray having roughly 900 studenst and STA being all boys then STA has 250 more boys than Hill.

[ACTUALFORMERPLAYER]

Where's the four pass rule? Shouldn't the forwards be playing D? Where's the 4th line?

[HomeBarkingDog]

Breck considered a "small school"

what a joke

[ubugme]

Ok, the Breck v New Ulm game is really bugging me...

The MSHSL has to end this sham.

[HomeBarkingDog]

Ok, the Breck v New Ulm game is really bugging me...

The MSHSL has to end this sham.

all Privates to the big school tourney...end of problem

[ubugme]

Ok, the Breck v New Ulm game is really bugging me...

The MSHSL has to end this sham.

all Privates to the big school tourney...end of problem

Toss in Warroad and its a deal....

They bug me too....

[hockeyfan893]

[quote="HomeBarkingDog"][quote="ubugme"]Ok, the Breck v New Ulm game is really bugging me...

The MSHSL has to end this sham.[/quote]

all Privates to the big school tourney...end of problem[/quote]

Or all privates to the small school tourney (where they belong according to enrollment).

Then you have two highly competitive tournaments.

[ACTUALFORMERPLAYER]

Ok, the Breck v New Ulm game is really bugging me...

The MSHSL has to end this sham.

all Privates to the big school tourney...end of problem

Or all privates to the small school tourney (where they belong according to enrollment).

Then you have two highly competitive tournaments.

How about 1 class.

[hockeyfan893]

[quote="ACTUALFORMERPLAYER"][quote="hockeyfan893"][quote="HomeBarkingDog"][quote="ubugme"]Ok, the Breck v New Ulm game is really bugging me...

The MSHSL has to end this sham.[/quote]

all Privates to the big school tourney...end of problem[/quote]

Or all privates to the small school tourney (where they belong according to enrollment).

Then you have two highly competitive tournaments.[/quote]How about 1 class.[/quote]

In my personal opinion, two highly competitive tournaments is better than a 1 class competitive tournament.

The only way I think a 1 class tournament would work is if you did NCAA Basketball style format starting with 32 teams or so.

[DotaDangler]

In regards to breck vs STA and who should move up here is what I think,

Breck has some where around 450 students.

STA has 700 but they arent they all boys? If this is true STA should be thought of as a 1400 student school. And if you combine this with their level of success their is no question they should be AA

Breck on the other hand has roughly 225 boys in the their high school. If they want to move up then its good for them but I think based on their school size that they are a good fit for Class A. There is nothing wrong with having a powerhouse in Class A but STA in class A just doesnt make sense to me. Assuming im correct about Hill Murray having roughly 900 studenst and STA being all boys then STA has 250 more boys than Hill.

STA has around 500 in the high school. I wish the MSHL would just put STA in AA, and so do many ppl in the STA community.

I like the idea of all private schools in AA. Schools like SPA would of course get the shaft, but they never get to the A tourney anyways so no harm, no foul in my opinion.