PoniesDad45 wrote:I think a reasonable guideline regarding private schools in A class--look at the students who make up the team and if more than half of them developed in AA size associations then the team is AA. If they were developed in A associations, then A.
I think that is fair.
This seams somewhat reasonable. I have been thinking about this recently. A lot of the talk about the weaker section Class A scools being subpar seems like nonsence to me. they are exactly what i expect to be in class A. Im not sure about all of the private schools, but STA inparticular should not be in the Section A tourney. In an all male prep school, their attendance should be doubled and then if they fall under the number to be in Class A, they can stay. The coed public school has to use total attendance to see where thier school falls. that woulld include all the girls, which obviously would never play boys hockey. an average public school having 1000 students in enrollment might have 500 boys to 500 girls. this would put them in AA, but they would have less boys to choose from than STA. they need to man up and go AA. So what if they don't make it to the tourney for another 15 years. That would be right along the line with alot of other schools in AA.
New Ulm played very well and got a bad draw having to play a recruited private school Monster. Yes Breck is extremely good this year. They are AA good. they ought to be ashamed of all there success against true A schools. Just my opinion, but Breck is the team that doesn't belong in the "A" tourney. Good job New Ulm! try to enjoy the rest of the tourney wher the play should be at your same level.
PoniesDad45 wrote:I think a reasonable guideline regarding private schools in A class--look at the students who make up the team and if more than half of them developed in AA size associations then the team is AA. If they were developed in A associations, then A.
I think that is fair.
This seams somewhat reasonable. I have been thinking about this recently. A lot of the talk about the weaker section Class A scools being subpar seems like nonsence to me. they are exactly what i expect to be in class A. Im not sure about all of the private schools, but STA inparticular should not be in the Section A tourney. In an all male prep school, their attendance should be doubled and then if they fall under the number to be in Class A, they can stay. The coed public school has to use total attendance to see where thier school falls. that woulld include all the girls, which obviously would never play boys hockey. an average public school having 1000 students in enrollment might have 500 boys to 500 girls. this would put them in AA, but they would have less boys to choose from than STA. they need to man up and go AA. So what if they don't make it to the tourney for another 15 years. That would be right along the line with alot of other schools in AA.
New Ulm played very well and got a bad draw having to play a recruited private school Monster. Yes Breck is extremely good this year. They are AA good. they ought to be ashamed of all there success against true A schools. Just my opinion, but Breck is the team that doesn't belong in the "A" tourney. Good job New Ulm! try to enjoy the rest of the tourney wher the play should be at your same level.
The MSHSL doubles STA's attendance when considering what class to put them in. They still fall in class A.
How can you say that a bunch of boys should be ashamed of their success? Thats a bit ridiculous to me. They have done nothing but work extremely hard to get where they are.
Second, they did lose to what you consider a true A school.
Third, the rules are based on enrollment, deal with it.
PoniesDad45 wrote:I think a reasonable guideline regarding private schools in A class--look at the students who make up the team and if more than half of them developed in AA size associations then the team is AA. If they were developed in A associations, then A.
I think that is fair.
This seams somewhat reasonable. I have been thinking about this recently. A lot of the talk about the weaker section Class A scools being subpar seems like nonsence to me. they are exactly what i expect to be in class A. Im not sure about all of the private schools, but STA inparticular should not be in the Section A tourney. In an all male prep school, their attendance should be doubled and then if they fall under the number to be in Class A, they can stay. The coed public school has to use total attendance to see where thier school falls. that woulld include all the girls, which obviously would never play boys hockey. an average public school having 1000 students in enrollment might have 500 boys to 500 girls. this would put them in AA, but they would have less boys to choose from than STA. they need to man up and go AA. So what if they don't make it to the tourney for another 15 years. That would be right along the line with alot of other schools in AA.
New Ulm played very well and got a bad draw having to play a recruited private school Monster. Yes Breck is extremely good this year. They are AA good. they ought to be ashamed of all there success against true A schools. Just my opinion, but Breck is the team that doesn't belong in the "A" tourney. Good job New Ulm! try to enjoy the rest of the tourney wher the play should be at your same level.
The MSHSL doubles STA's attendance when considering what class to put them in. They still fall in class A.
I did not know that. Then I stand corrected. I still belive that these private schools are the ones who don't belong though. The New Ulms and the Hutchinsons are the ones who belong at this level and Im happy to see them year in and year out.
Chalk_Talk wrote:Just wondering if someone out there with some knowledge of the Breck roster could help me out. I'm just curious where each player played their youth hockey? Not trying to start anything, just would like to know.
I know a few come from the Mpls area, plymouth/wayzata, chaska, champlin, St. Louis Park
I remember a post a while ago that said about 5-6 players from last year's team would have gone to Champlin Park otherwise.
As far as the game last night, it was kind of like Globetrotters vs. Generals out there at certain points. But it is unfair to totally slam New Ulm here. They don't get a pick of who plays for them. They get their players from a pre-determined area so to speak, while Breck can build a super team. If New Ulm played Warroad or Hermantown, I think the goal difference certainly would not have reached 10.
It certainly would have reached that goal level. Warroad beat a much better than New Ulm Lourdes team 8-0. It probably would have been worse.
A good coach doesnt ask his players to hold back and a good player doesnt stop playing, period. This is the TOURNAMENT. New Ulm made it here and they should be played as such, no excuses, no special rules, no letting up.
eastside hockey wrote:
This seams somewhat reasonable. I have been thinking about this recently. A lot of the talk about the weaker section Class A scools being subpar seems like nonsence to me. they are exactly what i expect to be in class A. Im not sure about all of the private schools, but STA inparticular should not be in the Section A tourney. In an all male prep school, their attendance should be doubled and then if they fall under the number to be in Class A, they can stay. The coed public school has to use total attendance to see where thier school falls. that woulld include all the girls, which obviously would never play boys hockey. an average public school having 1000 students in enrollment might have 500 boys to 500 girls. this would put them in AA, but they would have less boys to choose from than STA. they need to man up and go AA. So what if they don't make it to the tourney for another 15 years. That would be right along the line with alot of other schools in AA.
New Ulm played very well and got a bad draw having to play a recruited private school Monster. Yes Breck is extremely good this year. They are AA good. they ought to be ashamed of all there success against true A schools. Just my opinion, but Breck is the team that doesn't belong in the "A" tourney. Good job New Ulm! try to enjoy the rest of the tourney wher the play should be at your same level.
The MSHSL doubles STA's attendance when considering what class to put them in. They still fall in class A.
I did not know that. Then I stand corrected. I still belive that these private schools are the ones who don't belong though. The New Ulms and the Hutchinsons are the ones who belong at this level and Im happy to see them year in and year out.
Wouldn't it make more sense to want to see the best hockey teams who have enrollments that are below the cut off?
cdk6 wrote:How can you say that a bunch of boys should be ashamed of their success? Thats a bit ridiculous to me. They have done nothing but work extremely hard to get where they are.
Second, they did lose to what you consider a true A school.
Third, the rules are based on enrollment, deal with it.
I guess you miss the point of Class A. What is the enrollment Of SSM's? lets go ahead and santion them and they can als show up in one of the sections of class A. Im not taking anything away from how good Breck is, I just dont think they belong in Class A. Its just an opinion, Not an argument. They shouldnt be ashamed of their success, just who it is against.
cdk6 wrote:How can you say that a bunch of boys should be ashamed of their success? Thats a bit ridiculous to me. They have done nothing but work extremely hard to get where they are.
Second, they did lose to what you consider a true A school.
Third, the rules are based on enrollment, deal with it.
I guess you miss the point of Class A. What is the enrollment Of SSM's? lets go ahead and santion them and they can als show up in one of the sections of class A. Im not taking anything away from how good Breck is, I just dont think they belong in Class A. Its just an opinion, Not an argument. They shouldnt be ashamed of their success, just who it is against.
The class A tournament isn't supposed to be a second class tournament. What you seem to want is more of the two tier system and we all know how well that worked out.
Goldy Gopher wrote:
The MSHSL doubles STA's attendance when considering what class to put them in. They still fall in class A.
I did not know that. Then I stand corrected. I still belive that these private schools are the ones who don't belong though. The New Ulms and the Hutchinsons are the ones who belong at this level and Im happy to see them year in and year out.
Wouldn't it make more sense to want to see the best hockey teams who have enrollments that are below the cut off?
I do agree with you goldy that it does make sence to want to see the best at the enrollment cut off. I just think it is pretty sad for these small area outstate schools to also enjoy success and have to come to the cities to play against highbread hockey players that come from large successful youth organizations.it just doesnt make good sense to me.
cdk6 wrote:How can you say that a bunch of boys should be ashamed of their success? Thats a bit ridiculous to me. They have done nothing but work extremely hard to get where they are.
Second, they did lose to what you consider a true A school.
Third, the rules are based on enrollment, deal with it.
I guess you miss the point of Class A. What is the enrollment Of SSM's? lets go ahead and santion them and they can als show up in one of the sections of class A. Im not taking anything away from how good Breck is, I just dont think they belong in Class A. Its just an opinion, Not an argument. They shouldnt be ashamed of their success, just who it is against.
The class A tournament isn't supposed to be a second class tournament. What you seem to want is more of the two tier system and we all know how well that worked out.
I prefer a one tier tournament myself. The 2 tier system is already here though. i would just like to see it defined a little differently.
I dont think we can choose who we want and where based on a whim. schools would be changing classes every year. Breck would be up and down. More likely than not they will be a top 15 A team next year and not nearly as good as this year. Contrary to popular belief they dont just bring in kids when they need new ones. It does not work that way at all.
eastside hockey wrote:
I guess you miss the point of Class A. What is the enrollment Of SSM's? lets go ahead and santion them and they can als show up in one of the sections of class A. Im not taking anything away from how good Breck is, I just dont think they belong in Class A. Its just an opinion, Not an argument. They shouldnt be ashamed of their success, just who it is against.
The class A tournament isn't supposed to be a second class tournament. What you seem to want is more of the two tier system and we all know how well that worked out.
I prefer a one tier tournament myself. The 2 tier system is already here though. i would just like to see it defined a little differently.
The 2 tier system was done away with in the early 90's. Before your time I'm guessing?
Goldy Gopher wrote:
The class A tournament isn't supposed to be a second class tournament. What you seem to want is more of the two tier system and we all know how well that worked out.
I prefer a one tier tournament myself. The 2 tier system is already here though. i would just like to see it defined a little differently.
The 2 tier system was done away with in the early 90's. Before your time I'm guessing?
Im sorry, Class A, Class AA. Tier 1, Tier2. (Potato Patato) What ever you want to call it, two levels of hockey. if you prefer, I will call it a one class system. I do agree that year in and year out, there level of strength will go up and down, depending on how many of their new enrollee"s if you will, play, or have played in a big successful youth system and how many they have enroll the same year. I am not going to say they are recruited, because I dont believe that. I don't think that New Ulm will be reloading its freshman class with students who enjoyed success in large twin city suburban hockey youth programs. My only point is that some people talk about the southern Minnesota teams are weak and dont belong. I just happen to believe they do and if any schools didnt belong, with out looking at attendance, are the dominant private schools who enjoy player prospects from all around the twin cities other than just one community.
Breck, STA, Blake, ect...play AA hockey, you rob from youth hockey associations and the majority of those players go to those schools because of hockey...it's disappointing when you see kids from small towns in outstate mn work hard with home-grown kids have to compete against those teams...do what H-M, B-SM, AHA do...they aren't afraid...
eastside hockey wrote:
I prefer a one tier tournament myself. The 2 tier system is already here though. i would just like to see it defined a little differently.
The 2 tier system was done away with in the early 90's. Before your time I'm guessing?
Im sorry, Class A, Class AA. Tier 1, Tier2. (Potato Patato) What ever you want to call it, two levels of hockey. if you prefer, I will call it a one class system. I do agree that year in and year out, there level of strength will go up and down, depending on how many of their new enrollee"s if you will, play, or have played in a big successful youth system and how many they have enroll the same year. I am not going to say they are recruited, because I dont believe that. I don't think that New Ulm will be reloading its freshman class with students who enjoyed success in large twin city suburban hockey youth programs. My only point is that some people talk about the southern Minnesota teams are weak and dont belong. I just happen to believe they do and if any schools didnt belong, with out looking at attendance, are the dominant private schools who enjoy player prospects from all around the twin cities other than just one community.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? You started by saying that you liked seeing the New Ulms and Hutches of the world in the tourney and then progressed into saying that you wanted a one class tourney? In a one class tourney you would never be seeing those teams at state. The two tier system that was in place in the early 90's was essentially a one class system with one tournament, the tier one tournament. The tier two tournament was pretty much an afterthought, as it should have been when teams with 1 regular season win are playing for the tier two title. No system is perfect but the current one is pretty darn good and has given us two quality tournaments year in and year out.
Goldy Gopher wrote:
The 2 tier system was done away with in the early 90's. Before your time I'm guessing?
Im sorry, Class A, Class AA. Tier 1, Tier2. (Potato Patato) What ever you want to call it, two levels of hockey. if you prefer, I will call it a one class system. I do agree that year in and year out, there level of strength will go up and down, depending on how many of their new enrollee"s if you will, play, or have played in a big successful youth system and how many they have enroll the same year. I am not going to say they are recruited, because I dont believe that. I don't think that New Ulm will be reloading its freshman class with students who enjoyed success in large twin city suburban hockey youth programs. My only point is that some people talk about the southern Minnesota teams are weak and dont belong. I just happen to believe they do and if any schools didnt belong, with out looking at attendance, are the dominant private schools who enjoy player prospects from all around the twin cities other than just one community.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? You started by saying that you liked seeing the New Ulms and Hutches of the world in the tourney and then progressed into saying that you wanted a one class tourney? In a one class tourney you would never be seeing those teams at state. The two tier system that was in place in the early 90's was essentially a one class system with one tournament, the tier one tournament. The tier two tournament was pretty much an afterthought, as it should have been when teams with 1 regular season win are playing for the tier two title. No system is perfect but the current one is pretty darn good and has given us two quality tournaments year in and year out.
Sorry, I do know what im talking about. I just dont have the same appretiation that you have for the twin cities private schools. If you noticed, I prefer a one class system, but now that we do have two classes, i dont think the privete schools should be allowed to move up or down at all. i guess i could see it your way, and we will go by pure enrollment. by doing this, we also will not allow the option of a move up. Breck will now gain the competition of AHA, Hill Murray, Benilde, and yes Roseau. Sorry guys no option to move up. Plenty more action for all of you who are missing top performing hockey clubs in Class A.
brokenbat wrote:Breck, STA, Blake, ect...play AA hockey, you rob from youth hockey associations and the majority of those players go to those schools because of hockey...it's disappointing when you see kids from small towns in outstate mn work hard with home-grown kids have to compete against those teams...do what H-M, B-SM, AHA do...they aren't afraid...
If you think private schools should be forced to AA, what should happen if, hypothetically speaking, a school like Warroad has kids who played bantams in places like crookston, TRF, or other area associations? Do you inventory where the players were groomed and then determine the class at the beginning of the season?
Private schools forced to play in Class AA? Really? You going to tell St Paul Academy, Minnehaha Academy, Meadow Creek Christian and Holy Family Catholic this? You can't.
Now, some privates should. Some have (Holy Angels, Benilde, Hill-Murray) and have been very successful. Breck and STA would do well in AA, also.
Take Dodge County as an example, they get 1 kid from Hayfield Minnesota but by MSHSL rules they have to count Hayfield High Schools total enrollment into their total enrollment which puts them into class AA. So Kasson-Mantorville, which is the host school could either tell the 1 Hayfield kid to take a hike, open enroll to K-M, or find some other school to take you as a co-op.
Rochester Lourdes gets nearly half its kids who went to public school in Rochester through 8th grade or later but show up at Lourdes to play hockey in high school, they didn't come from the Catholic school system yet they get to play A? How is that fair? Breck, STA, and others are the same way.
Or in BBB example, say a kid transfersto Warroad fom some other town, Warroad benefits from the per pupil funding and gets to let the kid be a star on their hockey team with no penalty.
The MSHSL justisn't equitable in the way it treats its member schools. Just my opinion, but if you choose to use an open enrollee on your team or a kid who transfers into your system from outside ou should count the losing schools enrollment as well, just like co-ops have to do.
east hockey wrote:Private schools forced to play in Class AA? Really? You going to tell St Paul Academy, Minnehaha Academy, Meadow Creek Christian and Holy Family Catholic this? You can't.
Now, some privates should. Some have (Holy Angels, Benilde, Hill-Murray) and have been very successful. Breck and STA would do well in AA, also.
Lee
Are they any different from Minneapolis East, Minneapolis West, River Lakes, or Dodge County beyond they charge tution?
I agree with the comments about why the MSHSL decides to punish some Coop schools that are trying field somewhat competitive teams yet private schools who draw players from several large and small cities are excempt from the same standard.
Maybe they should follow the old Softball example.
If your team wins the D League State Tournament, you automatically have to move up to Class C the following year.
Breck won the Class A championship last year, so they bump up to AA for this season. I think they would do very well.
Think about how proud they be if they knocked off Hill in the final instead of blasting New Ulm, Red Wing, etc.
How many times do i have to say that winning big is not classless? All these teams made it to state. Would it really be good coaching to ask teams to stop skating? How would Lourdes and New Ulm feel if they knew a team was "playing down" to their level? They all won section tournaments and every team should play their hardest. Oy. Classless is getting chippy when you are losing big.
Breck doesn't have anything to be ashamed of winning a game 11-1.
They are a great team. I just think they would excel in AA and personally I would rather beat some of the top AA schools in tight, competitive games in front of 19,000 people instead of beating an average team in front of 5,000.
