How to get a new coaching staff ???

[Willie Plett]

When a team is ahead after the first period and gets out coached in most games by the right moves or tweaks. How can the coaching staff be told to get a clue?? This coach will not let the parents talk to him in anyway. he has 4 or 5 possible D-1 players but can't get them to play together.The assist coach has 2 girls on the team and only wants to push them to the next level. The goalie coach who had a girl on the team made a better goalie move to Warroad. We all know her!!!

[25 sheet power]

They seem to be doing ok without your help. Or whats your question again?

[inthestands]

This is an outstanding first post Willie.

To answer your rehtorical question -How can the coaching staff be told to get a clue?? - They can't.. Their job is to coach, and your responsibilty is to watch and support your player.

At the high school level, it's time for parents to leave things up to the system. If your local program isn't working, the people responsible will have to deal with it. If they don't, others at that level should recognize the issues and deal with them.

Just my opinion of course.

[puck123]

Willie, my daughter must be playing on the same team! I'm glad to hear I am not the only one that thinks it is time for a change to the coaching staff. I don't expect the coaches to talk to the parents; however I do think they should talk to the girls. My understanding is that they still haven't talked to them about what they did wrong or right after the loss on Saturday. How are these girls going to learn if the coach doesn't communicate with them?!? Unfortunatly, I think we are stuck with what we have!!

[mulefarm]

It would be hard to loose with 4-5 D1 players on one team. Maybe they're not really D1 players??

[inthestands]

It would be hard to loose with 4-5 D1 players on one team. Maybe they're not really D1 players??

C'mon, a hockey parent not seeing things clearly?

[PWD10]

It would be hard to loose with 4-5 D1 players on one team. Maybe they're not really D1 players??

Have you watched the Gophers Men team lately?

Then again you may have a point.

[hesabaddmann]

Right on PWD10!!!
Couldn't have said it more concisely myself ...But now to answer the topic thread question how is this ...Maybe a move or an open enrollment to ISD #833 is in order ...Seems that in this district we have 3 schools- Woodbury, Eastridge, and Park that are all looking to fill entire coaching staff vacancies.... Incredible, isn't it? ...

[Ufeelshame]

I have been reading this forum for years. I have noticed that any time a parent attacks the coaching staff they get attacked for being biased for their kid, their kid does not get enought playing time, parent can't assess talent, etc. I have had boys and girls play at the HS level. I see a lot of crazy parents, a lot of over rated talent and A LOT of bad coaching. I see more bad coaching than crazy parents or over-rated talent. These HS coaches are dictators. They assess our kids talent every day and reward or punish based on what they see. Right or wrong its is their call and I respect that. HOWEVER, they need to be judged as well. Judging whether a coach is good or bad is easy. Its wins and losses. If a coach doesn't win state he/she failed. Plain and simple. You don't like that standard then don't coach and sports or not for you. That is sports. Somebody wins somebody loses. If a coach as leader of a team can look back on the season and "off season" and say "I did EVERYTHING I could to win as many games as possible then he is a success in my book even if he didn't win state. I am so sick of coaches and parents blaming the "lack of talent" on a team for losing. That is a complete cop out. Certainly talent is an over whelming factor in success but so is hard work. I am not saying hard work and positive thinking alone takes you to state. But it sure beats the alternative. Coaches ask so much of the players in the off season. Camps, STP, captain's practices, etc. What do most "losing" coaches do in the off season to become better coaches...not a damn thing. Do they ever work on becoming better coaches? Never. They think they are above it all or blame the lack of talent on the team. I am giving all parents the benefit of the doubt. If a coach can't win enough games to keep the team and parents happy get out of the way and let someone else try. It is the same standard the coaches hold our players to everyday. It only seems fair.

Ok let the attacks begin.

[Rocketwrister]

I have been reading this forum for years. I have noticed that any time a parent attacks the coaching staff they get attacked for being biased for their kid, their kid does not get enought playing time, parent can't assess talent, etc. I have had boys and girls play at the HS level. I see a lot of crazy parents, a lot of over rated talent and A LOT of bad coaching. I see more bad coaching than crazy parents or over-rated talent. These HS coaches are dictators. They assess our kids talent every day and reward or punish based on what they see. Right or wrong its is their call and I respect that. HOWEVER, they need to be judged as well. Judging whether a coach is good or bad is easy. Its wins and losses. If a coach doesn't win state he/she failed. Plain and simple. You don't like that standard then don't coach and sports or not for you. That is sports. Somebody wins somebody loses. If a coach as leader of a team can look back on the season and "off season" and say "I did EVERYTHING I could to win as many games as possible then he is a success in my book even if he didn't win state. I am so sick of coaches and parents blaming the "lack of talent" on a team for losing. That is a complete cop out. Certainly talent is an over whelming factor in success but so is hard work. I am not saying hard work and positive thinking alone takes you to state. But it sure beats the alternative. Coaches ask so much of the players in the off season. Camps, STP, captain's practices, etc. What do most "losing" coaches do in the off season to become better coaches...not a damn thing. Do they ever work on becoming better coaches? Never. They think they are above it all or blame the lack of talent on the team. I am giving all parents the benefit of the doubt. If a coach can't win enough games to keep the team and parents happy get out of the way and let someone else try. It is the same standard the coaches hold our players to everyday. It only seems fair.

Ok let the attacks begin.

How do you know coaches don't work at becoming better coaches? Clinics, books, research, discussing systems / strategies with other coaches, etc. I wouldn't put all the eggs in 1 basket.

Just my 2 cents.

[Mac15]

My daughters coach is doing Adv 16 and summer captains practices. He attends the Houston Aeros tryouts. He used to run a summer hockey camp. I thought this was the norm.

The Red Wing and DC coaches do Adv 16/17. They run a fall 4x4 league and I think they coach AAA too.

Let's not paint them all with the same brush.

[OntheEdge]

I have been reading this forum for years. I have noticed that any time a parent attacks the coaching staff they get attacked for being biased for their kid, their kid does not get enought playing time, parent can't assess talent, etc. I have had boys and girls play at the HS level. I see a lot of crazy parents, a lot of over rated talent and A LOT of bad coaching. I see more bad coaching than crazy parents or over-rated talent. These HS coaches are dictators. They assess our kids talent every day and reward or punish based on what they see. Right or wrong its is their call and I respect that. HOWEVER, they need to be judged as well. Judging whether a coach is good or bad is easy. Its wins and losses. If a coach doesn't win state he/she failed. Plain and simple. You don't like that standard then don't coach and sports or not for you. That is sports. Somebody wins somebody loses. If a coach as leader of a team can look back on the season and "off season" and say "I did EVERYTHING I could to win as many games as possible then he is a success in my book even if he didn't win state. I am so sick of coaches and parents blaming the "lack of talent" on a team for losing. That is a complete cop out. Certainly talent is an over whelming factor in success but so is hard work. I am not saying hard work and positive thinking alone takes you to state. But it sure beats the alternative. Coaches ask so much of the players in the off season. Camps, STP, captain's practices, etc. What do most "losing" coaches do in the off season to become better coaches...not a damn thing. Do they ever work on becoming better coaches? Never. They think they are above it all or blame the lack of talent on the team. I am giving all parents the benefit of the doubt. If a coach can't win enough games to keep the team and parents happy get out of the way and let someone else try. It is the same standard the coaches hold our players to everyday. It only seems fair.

Ok let the attacks begin.

I too think coaches should be judged but my take is a little different. I think judging should be done after the season has completed each year. I don't think winning and losing is the most important factor and I don't think its "[he or she] did EVERYTHING [he or she] could to win as many games as possible". I think its easy to judge a season by two factors. 1. Do the players respect the coach? and 2. Are the players better hockey players at the end of the season than they were at the beginning of the season?

Wins and loses aren't the determining factor for me because: 1. Is it fair to a coach that has a team that lacks talent? and 2. I think teams loaded with talent might win lots of games despite the bad coach.

When I talk about "respect" I'm not talking about the girls liking the coach. I think the girls have to believe in the coach and believe that the coach is taking them down the right path to be better hockey players and better citizens.

In my second factor I think its easy for most to determine if the players are playing better as a team and as individuals. Not all players will be better at the end of the season but if the coach is a good coach the majority of the players should have grown during the season. Ask such questions as is the team cohesive or is there lots of in fighting? Has the coach built on the strengths of his or her team and minimized the weaknesses? Are players ending the season with lots of confidence or is their confidence shaken by the experience of the season? Answers to these questions will give you your answer.

In summary, a good coach has his or her players playing confident and playing their best hockey at the end of the season regardless of the W-L record.

If the determination is that this is not a good coach then I believe the athletic director should work with the coach to see what they can do to improve the situation. Obviously there are times when firing is necessary but in general firing a coach should be the last resort when it is obvious that the bad situation is not improving.

[JohnnyBuck]

You must be talking about Grand Rapids? From my perspective they have been pretty successful up there. My thoughts are "relax"! As an ex-coach let me say this. Parents are always quick to criticize the coaches when the team or their kid does not meet "their" expectations. I must be the coaches, right? Not! Often the kids just are not that good. However, a coach can never say to the parent........."you know, I hear ya on the winning thing, but your kid is just not that good and continues to kill us out there"!

[northwoods oldtimer]

Most folks earning a living off of the public like to use a commonly used phrase of double speak and well gifted they are at the art. Accountability? Forget it! That covers a ton of programs in the state. The successful ones make changes when change is needed and that is a credit to their success. Most of the successful programs figure it out and move on to improve the situation, be it north or south, east or west. All comes down to who wishes to be accountable. Some programs have great folks in place and some just do not and the kids succeed or suffer because of it.

[Ufeelshame]

Remember, I said "losing coaches" don't do anything. I am not painting ALL coaches. Not even close. I am sure many coaches out there do a lot of things in the off season. They are great and you are lucky to have them. I am not so lucky. I know my coach does NOTHING. Serioulsy, are we talking about sports? Success in sports is winning. Remember, I don't make the rules. It just is. Ask any winning coach ask any winning athlete. YOU don't have to like it. If you don't like it I suggest you don't compete. However, if you are willing to try hard and still lose or risk losing I am proud...no VERY proud of you. I lose far more than I win every day. Why is it that if lose in my daily life I can't blame anyone but myself? If I lose, I did something wrong. But if a coach loses it must be for "lack of talent", crazy parents, tough conference, private schools, etc, etc. Maybe he does lack talent, maybe the kids don't work hard enough. I know that is the case sometime. So at the end of the season do something to help that situation out. Do something. Maybe become a better motivator. Maybe work the kids harder. Maybe the kids don't want to work hard for that coach. Maybe get out of the way and let someone else try. Just don't make excuses for not winning. Coaches with talent don't have to be as good as ones with less talent. Just like players with more ablitiy don't have to work as hard as the ones with less ability. It is great if your coach gets respect if he loses. Doesn't make him a good coach. It makes him a good person. Which IS more important. Did everyone read that? Being a good person IS more important than being a good coach. Some coaches win. Does NOT make him a good person, it makes him objectively judged a good coach. Some bad people are considered good coaches. I am old enough to know that some people,obviously many on this forum, make excuses for losing. I have never had that luxury. When I lose it is always my fault. I like to think that doesn't make me a loser, it just means I didn't try hard enough, wasn't smart enough, etc. My last statement on this I want everyone to really think about. Wish I had said it, but I didn't. The next time you as a coach or former coach want to talk about losing because of "lack of talent", private schools or any other excuse, remember..."Winners and losers are self-determined, but only the winners are willing to admit it." John Wooden.

[neutralregroup]

Vince Lombardi was once quoted "Winning isn't everything, AND it's not as easy as it looks"! Very true...

[concerned-coach]

Vince Lombardi also said, "The team that gets off the bus with the best players usually wins." That said, losing isn't necessarily the fault of the competitor nor the coach and winning isn't necessarily because the competitor tried harder or the coaching was superior. An athlete or an employee can have their best outing ever and still lose to a superior opponent or circumstances beyond their control. If the objective is to consistently manage to the best possible performance and that objective is attained, winning or losing is irrelevant.

[royals dad]

I think the quote is actualy "winning isnt everything, it's the only thing"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winning_is ... only_thing

I really think it doesn't work for girls HS Hockey.

I like to think the good coaches are the ones that build good programs instead of teams. The good programs have a way to be a positive influence on the hockey and non hockey lives of the student athletes weather or not they are stars.

[hockeywild7]

Concerned-coach hit the nail on the head. The best coach isn't always the one with the best winning percentage. I think the best coaches teach and motivate athletes to perform at their highest level, win or lose. Some kids have more natural ability than others (genetics). There are so many factors that make up a winning team. Talent is always the main ingredient but many other things contribute such as attitude, coachability, competitiveness, willingness to be a team player ect...

[neutralregroup]

Royals D, he actually said both, I just thought the first one better describes the view from behind the bench...

You hit it on the head, though, it is all about building the program from the bottom up.

[karl(east)]

I came onto this topic expecting to give the same response I gave to a similar topic on the boys' forum--"how do you get rid of a coach? By ranting and raving endlessly on an anonymous message board"--and then lock the thread. But to my pleasant surprise, it evolved into a productive conversation.

I agree with those who say good coaches get the most out of their teams. Also, at this level, it's not just about winning--winning should be a part of it, but if you go through the MSHSL mission statements, etc., there's a whole lot more to it. Whether you think that's high-minded blather or the canon for what high school sports should be, it does exist and play a role; high school sports is also about participation and building good people. Bottom line, these are not the pros; high school coaches should not lose their jobs just because their records aren't very good, and there are times when coaches with good records might deserve to get axed.

As for the original question, on how the coaching staff can be told to get a clue, realize a few things:
1. The coach most likely knows more about coaching hockey than you do. If you think you could be better, apply for the job.
2. We're dealing with high school kids. Shockingly, high school kids have been known to ignore directions, get sullen and moody, or just flat out make mistakes. Just because the team isn't playing better doesn't mean the coach isn't trying.
3. Take a step back. There's a reason people complain about the overbearing hockey parent. You probably don't realize you're being that parent until it's too late.

All that said, there certainly are certain grounds that warrant a coach's dismissal. In those instances, I firmly believe it's the role of the players--not the parents!--to step up and make the changes they want. Coaches expect the occasional angry parent. But if the entire team is coming together in protest, you can bet the coach will take notice. The kids coming together proves it's not just a single person's vendetta, too.

Many parents today defend their actions by saying they want what's best for their kids. That's not a bad thing; they certainly should care. But in my opinion, the truly great parent is one who puts his or her kid in a position to do what's best for him/herself.

[northwoods oldtimer]

karl you are right this has grown to be a very good discussion thread which for once is very nice to see. You and I both wish it could translate into other areas of the forum. I do agree with some of what you are saying but have to disagree with the kids pooling together to relieve a coach. The coach has a ton of power and fear of repercussion is his or her most powerful tool in the defense of the coach remaining in a position. A system of checks and balance simply do not exist at the high school level. In contrast the the association Bantam and Pee Wee coach have less shot of remaining in position there survivial rate is based on wins. High School coaches to a large degree are protected from the very competitive world that most of us live in. They are protected by merit and a strong union that few of us in private sector have luxury of. To a large degree this impacts programs (accountability) when we are talking about change in coaching. The great ones excel (like Mike Randolph) but they are few and far between. Some of the metro programs have been going with non teacher coaches in some programs and I think that fit has worked out well for programs. Perhaps some folks can shed more light on whether that is true or not.

[hockeywild7]

Not following you on how a HS coach has a "ton" of power? If any association/school bases the coaches jobs soley on wins alot of great coaches will be lost. And since when did a union save a HS coaches job? What if you don't belong to the union? You can get away with more? If you are a coach and the A.D. thinks its time to make a change they do. I would also say there are alot of advantages for athletes, A.D.'s and parents who have coaches that also teach at the school. I would guess alot of the greatest HS coaches in Minnesota where teachers at the school they coached at as well. Ask any coach who also teaches at the school they coach at and they will tell you how important it is. Not to say a coach who isn't a teacher can't be great but I would guess many of them have assistants who are teachers on the school staff because of the advantages of having a direct contact with the kids in school.

[karl(east)]

karl you are right this has grown to be a very good discussion thread which for once is very nice to see. You and I both wish it could translate into other areas of the forum. I do agree with some of what you are saying but have to disagree with the kids pooling together to relieve a coach. The coach has a ton of power and fear of repercussion is his or her most powerful tool in the defense of the coach remaining in a position. A system of checks and balance simply do not exist at the high school level. In contrast the the association Bantam and Pee Wee coach have less shot of remaining in position there survivial rate is based on wins. High School coaches to a large degree are protected from the very competitive world that most of us live in. They are protected by merit and a strong union that few of us in private sector have luxury of. To a large degree this impacts programs (accountability) when we are talking about change in coaching. The great ones excel (like Mike Randolph) but they are few and far between. Some of the metro programs have been going with non teacher coaches in some programs and I think that fit has worked out well for programs. Perhaps some folks can shed more light on whether that is true or not.

I should probably explain my idea about the players coming together a bit more. It can't just be three or four upset kids; it needs to be the majority of the team. A coach can bench a handful of complainers, but he can't throw everyone off the team. That's not to say nothing can be done if only one or two players are being treated poorly; you'd hope, in that case, their teammates would speak up on their behalf and act in solidarity.

No coach is going to work well with everyone--a few dissenters are expected anywhere, and some of them are going to get angry. IMO a change needs to be made when the coach loses control of the team.

High school coaches do have some nice protections, yes, but at the same time, the bad ones do get weeded out relatively well. Who would want to stay on in a position that pays very little where they are not liked? Sure, a few of them might manage to hang on, but most don't. And I think coaches do deserve some protections, or else it'd be far too easy for a handful of angry people with vendettas to get their way (the Randolph incident a few years ago probably colors my opinion of that significantly).

I'd be curious to learn which notable coaches are teachers and which aren't, too. Randolph teaches 4th grade, and I don't think he's at a school that feeds into East. Saterdalen did teach at Jefferson. Others?

[hockeyfan21]

To tell the truth I'm amazed schools can get coaches in the first place.

Hourly pay under 20 cents an hour when you really calculate it. Ridiculous parents who are your best friend one year and think you are scum the next. Nearly year round commitment. 30+ hours/week away from your family during the season. Constant joy of fundraising then defending the budget that is created by what the parents/athletes expect.

The only reason to do it is for the kids; and let's be honest teenagers can be... trying at times.