Latest MN Hockey Bantam A rankings

[silentbutdeadly3139]

If you are trying to figure out who won the tournament it makes more sense to look at tournament results than a computer ranking of all the teams in the state.

And if your trying to find the best team look at the tournament results. Hard to believe they are 3rd best after winning state

Do you know what you are looking at? "Look at tournament results"? What if the state tournament hasn't been played? And yes, the rankings do take all results into account.

Who has the best Bantam team in the nation? Who are the favorites to win Nationals? If you have a different measuring stick to look at go ahead. Most people just look at the myhockey rankings because they are - like all formulaic rankings - a great place to start.

It doesn't seem like you understand rankings very well. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't read their methodology recently, but aren't all games considered equal by myhockey and mnhockey?

Get off your high horse and quit being so condescending.

- "What if the state tournament hasn't been played?" it had been played. The ONLY comment I made was AFTER the tournament, Its hard to believe Woodbury is #3 after winning state.

- "Who has the best Bantam team in the nation? Who are the favorites to win Nationals? " The rankings were the MINNESOTA RANKINGS and NOT the national rankings.

- "it doesn't seem like you understand rankings very well. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't read their methodology recently, but aren't all games considered equal by myhockey and mnhockey?"

You should read there methodology and I am correcting you because you ARE wrong. All games are NOT equal which is why they have a strength of schedule weighting. Otherwise the they wouldn't need ranking just a spreadsheet to sort by winning percentage.

[O-townClown]

Get off your high horse and quit being so condescending.

- "What if the state tournament hasn't been played?" it had been played. The ONLY comment I made was AFTER the tournament, Its hard to believe Woodbury is #3 after winning state.

- "Who has the best Bantam team in the nation? Who are the favorites to win Nationals? " The rankings were the MINNESOTA RANKINGS and NOT the national rankings.

- "it doesn't seem like you understand rankings very well. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't read their methodology recently, but aren't all games considered equal by myhockey and mnhockey?"

You should read there methodology and I am correcting you because you ARE wrong. All games are NOT equal which is why they have a strength of schedule weighting. Otherwise the they wouldn't need ranking just a spreadsheet to sort by winning percentage.

1. Minnesota's Bantam championship has been played, but the national champtionship has not. Your ONLY comment that was made AFTER (emphasis yours) is that it is hard to believe Woodbury was #3. I asked why. How is this condescending? I think, given the method to tabulate, that it is unusual for a team to be #1 in the computer ranking before the final tournament and then win it all. It happened in Minnesota HS this year and will most likely happen in some of the national tournaments as well. (Edina's Pee Wees were #1 in the mnhockey ranking and ultimately won the state tournament, so it does happen.)

2. Yes, I understand Woodbury won state. My question is, "who do you think will do well at nationals?" Most people will look at the myhockey rankings to get a gauge. The mnhockey rankings follow the same system. (Identical if I'm not mistaken.) Was it hard to believe Woodbury's ranking before the state tournament? They were probably 3rd or 4th. I don't see what is so hard to follow. It's like you want them to be #1 and if they aren't then you hope to conclude the system is without merit.

3. I just re-read "their" FAQs and I'm not wrong. All games are weighed equal. Strength of schedule is used to determine how much a win means, but there is no mechanism to treat state tournament games as 2x or 3x more meaningful than a league game, in-season tournament, or scrimmage.

Minnesota held three state tournaments for HS, Bantam, and Pee Wee hockey. Two of the winners did not finish the season on top in the final mnhockey ranking. I'm not surprised. Same thing is probably going to happen Monday night at the NCAA basketball final. Ken Pomeroy has Duke #1 and Jeff Sagarin has Duke #2 (behind Kansas). If anyone else wins they won't be on top in the final computer rankings.

Polls allow you to move the champion up at the end. That's what Let's Play Hockey always did when I lived in Minnesota. Maybe you should use their ranking instead.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

I'll quit posting after this but ...

Get off your high horse and quit being so condescending.

- "What if the state tournament hasn't been played?" it had been played. The ONLY comment I made was AFTER the tournament, Its hard to believe Woodbury is #3 after winning state.

- "Who has the best Bantam team in the nation? Who are the favorites to win Nationals? " The rankings were the MINNESOTA RANKINGS and NOT the national rankings.

- "it doesn't seem like you understand rankings very well. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't read their methodology recently, but aren't all games considered equal by myhockey and mnhockey?"

You should read there methodology and I am correcting you because you ARE wrong. All games are NOT equal which is why they have a strength of schedule weighting. Otherwise the they wouldn't need ranking just a spreadsheet to sort by winning percentage.

1. Minnesota's Bantam championship has been played, but the national champtionship has not. Your ONLY comment that was made AFTER (emphasis yours) is that it is hard to believe Woodbury was #3. I asked why. How is this condescending? I think, given the method to tabulate, that it is unusual for a team to be #1 in the computer ranking before the final tournament and then win it all. It happened in Minnesota HS this year and will most likely happen in some of the national tournaments as well. (Edina's Pee Wees were #1 in the mnhockey ranking and ultimately won the state tournament, so it does happen.)

MNHOCKEY rankings were dated Mar. 24 AFTER state tournament and that is the context of my comments and this thread.

The other parts of your posts were the condescending part "Do you know what you are looking at?", "It doesn't seem like you understand rankings very well." etc.

2. Yes, I understand Woodbury won state. My question is, "who do you think will do well at nationals?" Most people will look at the myhockey rankings to get a gauge.

I don't know that sounds like different thread. Do MN teams get to play in nationals ?

The mnhockey rankings follow the same system. (Identical if I'm not mistaken.) Was it hard to believe Woodbury's ranking before the state tournament? They were probably 3rd or 4th. I don't see what is so hard to follow. It's like you want them to be #1 and if they aren't then you hope to conclude the system is without merit.

Not hard to believe Woodbury 3rd before tournament but harder to believe after tournament when MNHOCKEY rankings were updated on Mar. 24

3. I just re-read "their" FAQs and I'm not wrong. All games are weighed equal. Strength of schedule is used to determine how much a win means, but there is no mechanism to treat state tournament games as 2x or 3x more meaningful than a league game, in-season tournament, or scrimmage.

I believe you are. How is strength of schedule determined ? by not weighting all games equally ... beating a team with good record is weighted more than beating a winless team. Continuing to Win games in State tournament presumably would/should increase your strength of schedule and winning state championship should count for something vs. team that ranked ahead of Woodbury but didn't make state ... at least I would hope so.

Minnesota held three state tournaments for HS, Bantam, and Pee Wee hockey. Two of the winners did not finish the season on top in the final mnhockey ranking. I'm not surprised. Same thing is probably going to happen Monday night at the NCAA basketball final. Ken Pomeroy has Duke #1 and Jeff Sagarin has Duke #2 (behind Kansas). If anyone else wins they won't be on top in the final computer rankings.

Polls allow you to move the champion up at the end. That's what Let's Play Hockey always did when I lived in Minnesota. Maybe you should use their ranking instead.

MNHOCKEY rankings were dated Mar. 24 AFTER state tournament and that is the context of my comments and this thread.

[5thgraders]

The previous years status carries over to the next year. It's a starting point as to what your rating number starts out at the following year. That is why Edina ranks out so high at number 4. When twenty one teams had more wins than the Hornets. Fifteen teams had fewer losses than the Hornets.

87th ranked lake of the woods had fewer losses than the Hornets.

91st ranked Litchfield Dassel Cokato had fewer losses than Hornets

93rd ranked Pequot Lakes had fewer losses than Hornets

Just saying Hornets ranked to high for the results...

[TTpuckster]

This argument can go on forever...Obviously it is my opinion that East is WAS the best team in the state this year.

Lastly, LPH loses credibility with me in their rankings and putting tonka and East out of the top 8 because they didn't make it to state. If these are truly "RANKINGS" than rank the teams where they are based on the season, level of competition they played against and their record against those teams. If you want to list finishes then that is a different story.

This is an interesting debate and one that clearly does not have an answer. Duluth East Fan, I understand your point of view but your logic has holes in it. For example, you talked about the easy road Wayzata and OMG had to the State Tournament. This has merit, but you also failed to mention that OMG was 4-0 against Woodbury, Grand Rapids, and your own Duluth East squad. So by your own logic of incorporating head to head competition into the rankings, I would think OMG would be the best team in the state or does the math not apply when it works against the hounds?

Totally agree, you could make that argument.

OMG #1

Ultimately Woodbury is the state champion and when history looks back on this season of bantam hockey that is what will stand the test of time. But for here and now IMHO, I feel as I do. Which as I previously stated, is openly biased!

Hey, I like that.
And since EGF beat OMG at the end of the season, when it really counts, then, by this logic:

EGF #1

[O-townClown]

SBD:

MNHOCKEY rankings were dated Mar. 24 AFTER state tournament and that is the context of my comments and this thread.

Remember, the games played at the state tournament have very little bearing on the final ranking. Woodbury played 68 games. Late wins over Cloguet, Wayzata, and Grand Rapids are just three of those 68. As a result, they don't have much of an impact.

I don't know that sounds like different thread. Do MN teams get to play in nationals ?

Minnesota teams are not attending this year's nationals. Several reasons, none real relevant here. It is not a different thread. You keep making a distinction that the March 24th ranking is after the state tournament. Fine. As I've said, take a ranking from the same week for nationals and nothing really changes. The only difference is that we don't yet know who will win the final tournament. myhockeyrankings and mnhockeyrankings use the same system.

Not hard to believe Woodbury 3rd before tournament but harder to believe after tournament when MNHOCKEY rankings were updated on Mar. 24

Their schedule shows an 8-1 loss after the state tournament. That will factor in too if they update again. I still don't see what is "harder to believe" if you really understand how they rank things. If your position is that they should change their methodology you haven't said that. (I would disagree...their two sites are very good if you ask me.) Furthermore, anyone with a problem with their approach is free to devise another. If people don't like rankings, don't use them.

I believe you are. How is strength of schedule determined ? by not weighting all games equally ... beating a team with good record is weighted more than beating a winless team. Continuing to Win games in State tournament presumably would/should increase your strength of schedule and winning state championship should count for something vs. team that ranked ahead of Woodbury but didn't make state ... at least I would hope so.

This one is a little tricky since the word "weighed" can be used twice in two contexts. First - a game at any time carries the same meaning. An early win over Grand Rapids by the same score in the first game of the season would be worth just as much as the one in the state championship game. That's how it works. Usually when people disagree with it the people that create such formulas raise the valid point they wouldn't know how to overemphasize or deemphasize. After all, they are trying to remove the human element.

Second - yes, a win over Blaine is worth more than a win over Blue Earth. But the game isn't weighted differently based on who you play. All results go into the hopper.

When you look at the dominance in most games by Duluth East it is hard to make a case that they shouldn't be #1 in a computer ranking...even without doing the math. First off, they didn't lose much. Their first three losses were to Shattuck and two more were to a AAA team from Ontario. All of a sudden their 12 loss season is whittled down to just 7 against "peers" from Minnesota.

While there are diminishing returns for blowouts, teams get more credit for a three goal win than a nailbiter. Most of their wins, even against good teams, aren't by a goal. Heck, they just won 8-2, 9-3, and 8-1 on successive days...the last over Woodbury.

Minnetonka lost 12 games, at least three to Duluth East. The reason they are ahead of Woodbury (narrowly) is that they played a much harder schedule.

[O-townClown]

The previous years status carries over to the next year. It's a starting point as to what your rating number starts out at the following year. That is why Edina ranks out so high at number 4. When twenty one teams had more wins than the Hornets. Fifteen teams had fewer losses than the Hornets.

87th ranked lake of the woods had fewer losses than the Hornets.

91st ranked Litchfield Dassel Cokato had fewer losses than Hornets

93rd ranked Pequot Lakes had fewer losses than Hornets

Just saying Hornets ranked to high for the results...

No. Wrong.

They are at 4 based on games this season only. Refer to FAQ.

[pantherfan]

MN Ranks are base on what? Size numbers? So How is strength of schedule determined and who determines what number to put in the computer to base the rankings? ? It seems if you want to be ranked higher go play D6 3 or 4 times win or lose you MOVE UP in the rankings due to playing a tougher schedule, I say coaches should rank the teams

LPH rankings are voted buy anyone that wants to rank teams So that has issues also. if you win state you should be number 1

[Air Force 1]

MN Ranks are base on what? Size numbers? So How is strength of schedule determined and who determines what number to put in the computer to base the rankings? ? It seems if you want to be ranked higher go play D6 3 or 4 times win or lose you MOVE UP in the rankings due to playing a tougher schedule, I say coaches should rank the teams

LPH rankings are voted buy anyone that wants to rank teams So that has issues also. if you win state you should be number 1

I agree that if you win state you should be #1, LPH has Woodbury #1. LPH also has the next 7 in the place that they finished in state. Is Elk River or Burnsville better than Minnetonka or Edina, probably not but the teams in the top 8 won the game they had to at the time they had to. As Pantherfan stated, LPH is voted on by anyone that wants to be involved, not necessarily the most qualified people.

Now for MnHockey Rankings.com/MyHockey Rankings.com, it is a math equation, the "system" does not have a bias, it takes the numbers that are input and spits out a different number. As O-town says, look at the FAQ or when you have your favorite team up, click "the math page" link and it will show you all the numbers and you will see how the rankings are figured.

Does the best team always win a tournament, no. That's why they play the games. How's your NCAA basketball or hockey bracket looking right now? Will the winner of either of those teams be #1 in the final poll, yes because they are voted on by HUMANS, for hockey, will the champion be #1 in Pairwise or KRACH, unless it is Miami, probably not.

[karl(east)]

Ranking is, essentially, an information issue. No one has all the information necessary to rank all the teams; even if you watch every single game for a certain team, you still won't be able to measure all of the little things that contribute or to a team's success, or lack thereof.

Computer rankings take a certifiable bit of information (scores) and then spit out rankings. Because they are computers, they always get that part right. But that comes at a price; they ignore everything else that goes into the team, since you can't put a number on that.

Human rankings attempt to take those other things into account, and also compress unlike data (goals, shots on goal, maybe penalty minutes, number of lines used, and on and on) into something coherent. While their scope is more impressive, they can't cover all their bases the way a computer can.

Which is better? It's in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. They each have a purpose, and they're all fun to look at. Personally, I'm glad to see East's success this year, and whether the rankings have them at #1 or #9, that does nothing to discount the rather obvious talent on this team that'll be moving up soon.

Youth hockey has an issues that HS doesn't...the state tournament isn't necessarily the end of the season. While I understand the value of ranking the state champion #1 since I do it with what I do on the HS side, you'd think results that come afterwards should be factored in somehow.

[O-townClown]

Karl, as usual, well said.

What I don't understand is how people that don't like something criticize it, even when it does exactly what it is supposed to.

If the goal is to have the team that wins the state tournament #1, we don't need rankings at all. Just wait until the games are played and annoint them top dog.

The myhockey and mnhockey sites are intended to help people understand where teams fall relative to each other. DMom from Forest Lake mentioned this as being helpful for scheduling. Other teams may use it to help decide how to rotate goaltenders. Coaches and Tournament Directors clearly have an easier time assessing competitive balance than they would if they didn't have such a site. It would boil down to having teams fax over their schedule with scores attached, then taking an hour to figure out how good the opponents were.

One of the points that is made in the FAQ for those sites is that a team with a "developmental" focus early in the year can be penalized compared to a team that plays every game to win.

This much I know. Next year after teams have played a month you can get a pretty good gauge on where they are relative to the rest of the state by looking at the mnhockey site. Nothing wrong with that.

Whoever is behind it does a great job.