??? I don't understand this comment or the comment that I am against debate. Sorry if you misunderstand me but I feel strongly about issues and try to make a point. You have a right to your opinion and I have a right to mine. I don't care about who is for or against me.royals dad wrote: About two thirds of this forum are not for you. .
JUNIOR FEST 2010
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
IMO, some of these lists get created by a few parents who like to advertise their kids. They find a few sympathetic posters who also like to advertise their kids and they exchange posts about each other kids and how great their AAA teams are or how great their high school program is. It gets very disingenious. Again, IMO.
My OPINION. And all should be welcome and up for debate.
Stats can be a good indication of talent but not only by POINTS. I’m pretty sure coaches are nominating girls for this and from there have tryouts?
There are so many different styles of play. There are so many coaching styles. Some coaches play to score as many goals as possible. I've actually heard of many who will let there players go into the box after games and add them. Some coaches play very defensive styles play a dump and chase and have their D stay at home and never pinch.
I say you have to look at every team’s style and look at all stat categories. Not only pts but also plus/minus (very important for a D), shots blocked etc. Also whose killing penalties and how many pts were scored on the PP. What players are just offensive and what players play both ways.
I see all these high point players in high school. But when they get to equal level of talent as in summer leagues and elite games there pts drop off drastically.
Look at it this way look at how let’s say a player does against a weak opponent in a 9-1 game and then look how that same player will be shut out against let’s say Roseville, Edina etc. Should the player who scores 4-5 pts against a weak opponent make it over a player who scores 1-2 over a Roseville???
There will always be a debate unless there is a tryout process with independent evaluators. Which will never happen..
Stats can be a good indication of talent but not only by POINTS. I’m pretty sure coaches are nominating girls for this and from there have tryouts?
There are so many different styles of play. There are so many coaching styles. Some coaches play to score as many goals as possible. I've actually heard of many who will let there players go into the box after games and add them. Some coaches play very defensive styles play a dump and chase and have their D stay at home and never pinch.
I say you have to look at every team’s style and look at all stat categories. Not only pts but also plus/minus (very important for a D), shots blocked etc. Also whose killing penalties and how many pts were scored on the PP. What players are just offensive and what players play both ways.
I see all these high point players in high school. But when they get to equal level of talent as in summer leagues and elite games there pts drop off drastically.
Look at it this way look at how let’s say a player does against a weak opponent in a 9-1 game and then look how that same player will be shut out against let’s say Roseville, Edina etc. Should the player who scores 4-5 pts against a weak opponent make it over a player who scores 1-2 over a Roseville???
There will always be a debate unless there is a tryout process with independent evaluators. Which will never happen..
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royals dad
- Posts: 432
- Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:41 pm
Sorry I guess I just was reading to much into posts, it seemed like it was just a simple list someone put together to get a conversation started about top juniors to watch for, then we had a whole bunch of posts (mine included) about why stats are bad, misleading, or non existent. This is a frequent topic and very debatable. There were also accusations about the altruistic nature of these lists. Certainly both these topics are good debates on their own but cant we just put a list out there of juniors to watch without listing 300 players, then have other topics opened to talk about stats and self promoting parents.
I had put a name out there of a girl who is not my daughter but who plays on my daughters team. I have watched her play a couple years and I think she is a really great player but her stats didn't get her on the list. I wouldn't know her if she wasn't on my kids team. I think it is this type of player that is worth watching for in summer and elites.
I had put a name out there of a girl who is not my daughter but who plays on my daughters team. I have watched her play a couple years and I think she is a really great player but her stats didn't get her on the list. I wouldn't know her if she wasn't on my kids team. I think it is this type of player that is worth watching for in summer and elites.
stats leaders
Junior fest is right around the corner so here are the stats leaders for juniors
When I posted this it was just more of a curiosity and a chance to look at just the top stat leaders for the juniors, But as the title said top stats leaders not the top talent or presumed Top talent which by the way is just an opinion too. The numbers that I posted were nothing more than stats from the Star & Tribune and it was the top stats that were posted.
I too have seen many times when one or two people are listed as the top this or that and they are just opinions which some times I agree with and sometimes I do not, I posted the names of approximately 120 junior girls whose stats were available.
I think what Royals was referring to is that 2/3 of the post on this forum are opinions and not much more.
When I posted this it was just more of a curiosity and a chance to look at just the top stat leaders for the juniors, But as the title said top stats leaders not the top talent or presumed Top talent which by the way is just an opinion too. The numbers that I posted were nothing more than stats from the Star & Tribune and it was the top stats that were posted.
I too have seen many times when one or two people are listed as the top this or that and they are just opinions which some times I agree with and sometimes I do not, I posted the names of approximately 120 junior girls whose stats were available.
I think what Royals was referring to is that 2/3 of the post on this forum are opinions and not much more.
I agree on all points Melvin. My point was, stats without context have very limited value and I sometimes question the motivation of people who post lists, especially during tryouts (I don't have a problem with listing rosters or giving a plug for a girl you think should get recognition). Its my opinion and I know others have their own opinion.Melvin44 wrote:My OPINION. And all should be welcome and up for debate.
Stats can be a good indication of talent but not only by POINTS. I’m pretty sure coaches are nominating girls for this and from there have tryouts?
There are so many different styles of play. There are so many coaching styles. Some coaches play to score as many goals as possible. I've actually heard of many who will let there players go into the box after games and add them. Some coaches play very defensive styles play a dump and chase and have their D stay at home and never pinch.
I say you have to look at every team’s style and look at all stat categories. Not only pts but also plus/minus (very important for a D), shots blocked etc. Also whose killing penalties and how many pts were scored on the PP. What players are just offensive and what players play both ways.
I see all these high point players in high school. But when they get to equal level of talent as in summer leagues and elite games there pts drop off drastically.
Look at it this way look at how let’s say a player does against a weak opponent in a 9-1 game and then look how that same player will be shut out against let’s say Roseville, Edina etc. Should the player who scores 4-5 pts against a weak opponent make it over a player who scores 1-2 over a Roseville???
There will always be a debate unless there is a tryout process with independent evaluators. Which will never happen..
Last edited by OntheEdge on Fri Apr 02, 2010 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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hockbandit
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:15 am
ADVANCED 17 Festival Schedule
2A/AA VS 4A/AA 4:15 RINK C 4/16/10
3A/AA VS 6A/AA 8:00 RINK B 4/16/10
1A/AA VS 8A/AA 8:15 AM RINK C 4/17/10
5A/AA VS 7A/AA 10:15 AM RINK C 4/17/10
All Games at Plymouth Ice Arena, Should be some good hockey.
3A/AA VS 6A/AA 8:00 RINK B 4/16/10
1A/AA VS 8A/AA 8:15 AM RINK C 4/17/10
5A/AA VS 7A/AA 10:15 AM RINK C 4/17/10
All Games at Plymouth Ice Arena, Should be some good hockey.
Re: ADVANCED 17 Festival Schedule
Are they picking teams by Sections like they do for 15-17s?hockbandit wrote:2A/AA VS 4A/AA 4:15 RINK C 4/16/10
3A/AA VS 6A/AA 8:00 RINK B 4/16/10
1A/AA VS 8A/AA 8:15 AM RINK C 4/17/10
5A/AA VS 7A/AA 10:15 AM RINK C 4/17/10
All Games at Plymouth Ice Arena, Should be some good hockey.
or taking the top kids overall and making teams?
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dumb blonde
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:59 am
Not sure what the advanced 17 rosters have to do with Junior Fest, other than some kids there will use that as a tryout. Just didn't want anyone getting confused.dumb blonde wrote:http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/docu ... 7_2010.xls
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hockbandit
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:15 am
I know of at least one girl who was placed in pool B that she received a Div 1 offer from a school. She did not choose to go there but an opportunity was presented. From what her parent who was there with her said scouts were watching both pools at least last year. They thought it was worth it and fun.hockbandit wrote:I see they have continued the format that was started last year with the two pools. For those of you that did it last year. Is it worth it for the kids that are placed in pool B? Are they even looked at by the scouts? Do you feel it was worth it? Just curious.
Another thing for those who did not receive an email and thinking they would or might....check your spam. Heard of a couple girls where it went into spam.
Good Luck to those who are participating!
hockbandit,
I played in Jr. Fest last year and was placed in B pool. At first of course it seemed as though they just wanted to make money by not cutting any girls. When we played the competition was good and I had fun. I wouldn't say many D1 schools were watching the B pool teams but who knows this year. My " B pool" level team also beat an A pool team and I'm sure there were some D1 scouts there. Overall I think its mostly D3 schools looking at the B pool but I recieved enough offers and letters to have a choice of where I wanted to play hockey and they were all from schools who saw me at Jr. Fest
I played in Jr. Fest last year and was placed in B pool. At first of course it seemed as though they just wanted to make money by not cutting any girls. When we played the competition was good and I had fun. I wouldn't say many D1 schools were watching the B pool teams but who knows this year. My " B pool" level team also beat an A pool team and I'm sure there were some D1 scouts there. Overall I think its mostly D3 schools looking at the B pool but I recieved enough offers and letters to have a choice of where I wanted to play hockey and they were all from schools who saw me at Jr. Fest
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Thunderbird77
- Posts: 134
- Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:01 pm
Last year, the organizer told me that there were girls that might have been in the A pool that were placed in the B pool because they replied too late.
We heard from several coaches that they came to Junior Fest with a list of players they were coming to watch. That being said, if you are an A pool or a B pool player, the coach that is interested in you will make it a point to see you play wherever. Also, keep in mind that at the D1 level, the coaches interested in various players have been watching these players for some time. Scholarships are an investment. D1 coaches spend their investment wisely. The success of their program (and their job) depends on it.
We heard from several coaches that they came to Junior Fest with a list of players they were coming to watch. That being said, if you are an A pool or a B pool player, the coach that is interested in you will make it a point to see you play wherever. Also, keep in mind that at the D1 level, the coaches interested in various players have been watching these players for some time. Scholarships are an investment. D1 coaches spend their investment wisely. The success of their program (and their job) depends on it.
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hockbandit
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:15 am
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northerngal65
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2009 10:52 am
SCOUTS AT JR FEST
It WAS worth it to attend Jr Fest 2010. My daughter was in Pool B and she did get a letter from a D3 school. If your daughter wants to continue to play hockey at ANY college level, I would recomend it. I know they are looked at by the scouts.hockbandit wrote:I see they have continued the format that was started last year with the two pools. For those of you that did it last year. Is it worth it for the kids that are placed in pool B? Are they even looked at by the scouts? Do you feel it was worth it? Just curious.
I actually liked the format. The majority of the games were very close in scoring and the cross over games were very good as well. It was very fun to watch and it was fun for my daughter to watch both pools. She got a better understanding of what she needs to continue to do and what she can improve on during her senior year of playing high school hockey.
Re: SCOUTS AT JR FEST
northerngal65 wrote:It WAS worth it to attend Jr Fest 2010. My daughter was in Pool B and she did get a letter from a D3 school. If your daughter wants to continue to play hockey at ANY college level, I would recomend it. I know they are looked at by the scouts.hockbandit wrote:I see they have continued the format that was started last year with the two pools. For those of you that did it last year. Is it worth it for the kids that are placed in pool B? Are they even looked at by the scouts? Do you feel it was worth it? Just curious.
I actually liked the format. The majority of the games were very close in scoring and the cross over games were very good as well. It was very fun to watch and it was fun for my daughter to watch both pools. She got a better understanding of what she needs to continue to do and what she can improve on during her senior year of playing high school hockey.
I actually have talked to many parents and although the girls had a lot of fun, they did not like the format. My daughter participated in jr fest this year and ended up getting a lot of looks, but most girls only get looks based on their reputation. There were some very talented players in pool b and some "okay" players in pool a.
Re: SCOUTS AT JR FEST
I have also talked to many parents (some with daughters in the A pool and some with daughters in the B pool), and most agree that the format is not a fair one. I also spoke to one high school coach who was very much against the two-pool format. He did not think high school coaches should be deciding which girls get looked at by D1 coaches or telling players that they are B players going into the festival.hockeym11 wrote:northerngal65 wrote:It WAS worth it to attend Jr Fest 2010. My daughter was in Pool B and she did get a letter from a D3 school. If your daughter wants to continue to play hockey at ANY college level, I would recomend it. I know they are looked at by the scouts.hockbandit wrote:I see they have continued the format that was started last year with the two pools. For those of you that did it last year. Is it worth it for the kids that are placed in pool B? Are they even looked at by the scouts? Do you feel it was worth it? Just curious.
I actually liked the format. The majority of the games were very close in scoring and the cross over games were very good as well. It was very fun to watch and it was fun for my daughter to watch both pools. She got a better understanding of what she needs to continue to do and what she can improve on during her senior year of playing high school hockey.
I actually have talked to many parents and although the girls had a lot of fun, they did not like the format. My daughter participated in jr fest this year and ended up getting a lot of looks, but most girls only get looks based on their reputation. There were some very talented players in pool b and some "okay" players in pool a.
My personal take on Junior Festival (and the NDP tryout process) is this: These tryouts do not reward the forward who backchecks well, digs the puck out of the corner so her teammate can score, or crashes the net for rebounds. These tryouts do not reward the defenseman who prevents the other team from scoring, blocks out players in front of the net, or makes a nice pass to her forward instead of skating it out of the zone. What it does reward is the flashy skater or the girl who has, along the way, been included in the top group of skaters. Some girls develop later in their career, making it extremely hard to crack that "top" billing as a junior or senior.
The simple fact that the A pool teams did not dominate the B pool teams in cross-over play or the final games tells me that the difference between the majority of players in both pools is minimal. However, by placing a girl in the B pool, the system has in effect removed that girl from consideration by D1 coaches even before she steps on the ice. It is unfortunate.