Future of Bloomington Hockey, Jaguars or Eagles, or Bears

worktoplayhockey · Post by **worktoplayhockey** » Tue May 25, 2010 1:52 am

Both schools have had their ups and downs, and have both been to the top. Many great players have come from Bloomington and their are many more to come through the ranks. But now to compete, is it time to combine both programs and have teams that will compete at all levels in D-6. There are many parents who are in favor of this and many who are against, as with any change. Reply to this post and let everyone know what you think should be done for a great community to once again compete with other top associations. This is not meant to be a bashing against either of the programs but rather a discussion of what to do....

Task Force 34 · Post by **Task Force 34** » Tue May 25, 2010 7:09 am

Eagles seem to lose their top 2 or 3 Bantams each year to other programs, some open enroll to Jefferson others choose private schools.

Further complicating matters, neither program is blessed with significant numbers at the youth level. This results in teams comprised of a few A players and many B that struggle to compete in D6.

A combined program would bolster Bloomington hockey and slot kids at the appropriate level.

F14 · Post by **F14** » Tue May 25, 2010 5:27 pm

Richfield also is really struggling as is Kennedy.

As an outsider, I would rather see Kennedy and Richfield coop as Jefferson seems to always have great teams and doesn't seem to ever need any help.

What is the latest with Richfield and have they discussed a coop for traveling with Kennedy?

Bullseye · Post by **Bullseye** » Wed May 26, 2010 1:30 am

Kennedy Hockey has a great bunch of parents and kids but a merger between the two sides would be better for both programs. Yes there were some Richfield Kids who did play on the PW A team at Kennedy this past year but it sounds like Richfield isn't interested in any Merger with Kennedy.

Most outsiders would see Jefferson as the stronger brother not needing any help, but if you look closer at the program you will see that some the kids are from the other side of the tracks or even other cities. Look at the top 5 and see how many of them were originally Kennedy kids. This year alone Kennedy lost 4 top Bantam A players to Jefferson due to open enrollment and one to a private school. It is tough for any program to lose their top 1/3rd players especially a struggling program.

Kennedy's numbers are low, with only about 70 in the boys mites, and barely enough kids to make two teams at any of the traveling teams.

My vote would be to merge the two Bloomington's into one and have the kids play on a team where they may compete with others in D6.

Task Force 34 · Post by **Task Force 34** » Wed May 26, 2010 5:01 pm

Bullseye-

Any insight on what drives these kids to other programs?

Bullseye · Post by **Bullseye** » Thu May 27, 2010 8:21 am

Education, friends, and hockey, not necessarily in that order, but these are the major contributing factors for leaving Kennedy. It is really hard to say individually but that is what I have heard. I have a young mite so haven't looked into that yet.

Task Force 34 · Post by **Task Force 34** » Thu May 27, 2010 11:48 am

We play summer hockey with families from both programs.

There seems to be a real difference in development philosophy and parents/kids commitment to off season development. BIG has an incredible off ice facility and it appears to be dominated by the Jefferson program whenever we are at BIG.

Pioneerprideguy · Post by **Pioneerprideguy** » Thu May 27, 2010 12:02 pm

I believe HM (and possibly STA) will only play Richfield once next year. The ADs met and agreed that given the current state of the programs, very little positiveness comes out of playing twice.

Sweet Dreams · Post by **Sweet Dreams** » Fri May 28, 2010 12:45 am

You are absolutely right. Eric with E Train is great and his program is remarkable. The tread mill training is great. Jefferson was the driving force behind the training facility, and Kennedy has never really taken full advantage of it. The major difference between the two programs are the development direction. Jefferson has a development program that starts at the Mites and ends at the High School. Now maybe it is not perfect but there is a driving direction. Kennedy on the other hand doesn't have a direction, no one with knowledge gets vested because they aren't staying long enough. Coaches from level to level or even in the same level have totally different directions. I understand no two coaches will coach exactly the same way but to have some common goal would be what the program needs. When Squirt A coaches have to teach basic skating techniques, ie. edges, backwards x-overs, transitions, etc... the team lacks in the teaching of the game. Some feel that making an A team is good enough, where else wheres the A players know they have to do more because there are B and C players challenging them. Maybe now that Kennedy has a new High School coach there will be a change in direction and he will have to drive this change and challenge all players and parents to step up and do more. It is becoming more evident that there are parents and players who do want more as they are choosing the Choice league at MM, which in the long run may actually help the program. To want more is one thing, to do something about it is the right thing. Kennedy needs to opt to not have A teams and field competitive B and C teams, or come join Jefferson. Hockey can do it like the wrestling programs did. The teams will be more competitive across the board.

I am sure HM and STA would love to opt out of any games with Richfield, it is not good for any involved.

Jefferson17 · Post by **Jefferson17** » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:49 pm

At a purely player level (which I am). This rivalry is too great to merge. However if we combine all we get is the lower Kennedy players, the good ones have already open enrolled.

If you want to play...Hockey, Baseball, Lacrosse, Basketball, you transfer to Jefferson

If you want to...wrestle, you transfer to Kennedy

That's how it is currently working for this grade of incoming freshmen.

seek & destroy · Post by **seek & destroy** » Sat Jul 31, 2010 8:48 am

Task Force 34 wrote:We play summer hockey with families from both programs.

There seems to be a real difference in development philosophy and parents/kids commitment to off season development. BIG has an incredible off ice facility and it appears to be dominated by the Jefferson program whenever we are at BIG.

As an outsider, I believe that the reason for the difference is the loss of the best players as they get to H.S.. Ultimately, a program needs the belief of on-ice success in order for players and parents to get excited about extra training and the money that it costs. Most C and B2 players aren't really interested in a bunch of extra training because hockey is something they play for fun. With the best players leaving Kennedy to go to Jefferson (or wherever), the hope of building on success drops and the youth program suffers. Playing the partial single A schedule at H.S. has helped them have some success but people still know that they are losing their best players to other schools. Once that ball starts rolling down the hill, it is hard to stop. Many families in the Kennedy program are either, a) determining if they want to take the risk and switch to Jefferson OR b) deciding that they probably aren't good enough to make the top teams at Jefferson so hockey becomes more about fun. Once they make that decision, spending hours and hours with extra training at E train becomes less important.

The only way to get it to end is to join the two programs OR try to get a good group of top players from Kennedy to stick together all the way through H.S. with the hopes of reviving the program. They have had some very talented players and can build on that but they need to get a group of top players to commit to stay together all the way through which is very hard to do.

Task Force 34 · Post by **Task Force 34** » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:41 pm

Word on the street is that the top first year Bantam for Jefferson is going to Shattuck and top first year Bantam for Kennedy will be playing for the Fire.

Great development opportunity for both kids - Hard to blame them.

Bullseye · Post by **Bullseye** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:08 am

As of todays D-6 website of the 12 Jefferson/Kennedy-Richfield PW and Bantam teams District Play.
12 Teams
25 wins 79 Losses 13 Ties
One team with a winning Record, Jefferson PW C 4 2 1
One team with a equal Record Jefferson BB2 3 3 1
All other teams are below 500.
Not sure the records of the Squirts, but I don't think any of them are really doing much. Kennedy didn't even have an A team at Squirts this year.
Mites numbers are declining with both programs.
Parents from both sides are ready to merge and be somewhat competitive in D-6 in all levels.
More and More kids each year are going to Minnesota Made, which will make the program in a whole much stronger.
WAKE UP BLOOMINGTON, time to merge....

observer · Post by **observer** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:09 am

time to merge....

Or, grow.

How many first year mites were successfully recruited for each association this season? Can someone share the 3 numbers with us?

keepurheadup · Post by **keepurheadup** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:09 pm

Seems like a win for all the kids up until high school. At high school, it seems you'd still end up with one school being stronger than the other. However, if a byproduct of having a combined program is reduced attrition at the youth level, both high school teams might be stronger and the numbers throughout the program might be better.

Defensive Zone · Post by **Defensive Zone** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:07 pm

keepurheadup wrote:Seems like a win for all the kids up until high school. At high school, it seems you'd still end up with one school being stronger than the other. However, if a byproduct of having a combined program is reduced attrition at the youth level, both high school teams might be stronger and the numbers throughout the program might be better.

You just said it...Numbers! Many years ago, I walked the streets of Bloomington. We had three high schools full of kids. Now the district can barely keep the school builds full, let alone having numbers with in the two hockey associates to be competitive. I do believe the good old days are gone in Bloomington even if Kennedy and Jefferson combined at the youth level. There is just not enough interest to go around. Why? It could be economics, demographics, age, population among youth, etc. You name it. What city will be next?

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:33 pm

This situation will continue to deteriorate long term for both programs. Bloomington is getting older and has not been able to keep young affluent families moving in as Edina has. In the short term, Bloomington could be competitive again if the entire city combined (Which D6 is in favor of). This would take quite a bit of flexibility and cooperation by a lot of different people with different points of view.

Two of those people are the varsity coaches. I can't imagine either of them approving of combining unless the two High School Teams combine as well. Which, of course, means just ONE varsity coach.

All of the above just my opinion.

Defensive Zone · Post by **Defensive Zone** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:55 pm

auld_skool wrote:This situation will continue to deteriorate long term for both programs. Bloomington is getting older and has not been able to keep young affluent families moving in as Edina has. In the short term, Bloomington could be competitive again if the entire city combined (Which D6 is in favor of). This would take quite a bit of flexibility and cooperation by a lot of different people with different points of view.

Two of those people are the varsity coaches. I can't imagine either of them approving of combining unless the two High School Teams combine as well. Which, of course, means just ONE varsity coach.

All of the above just my opinion.

I do agree with you skool. Unfortunately, I do not think the MSHL will grant combining these two programs, let alone the community. I could be wrong though.

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:39 pm

I think you're right Dzone. It's hard to watch it happen but I'm not sure if it's possible to change it. Things change, it's part of life. Look what happened on the Iron Range.

keepurheadup · Post by **keepurheadup** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:57 pm

skool and dzone why do you guys think that MSHL won't approve it? Just curious. Minneapolis saw their high school associations/teams collapse.

Defensive Zone · Post by **Defensive Zone** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:08 pm

keepurheadup wrote:skool and dzone why do you guys think that MSHL won't approve it? Just curious. Minneapolis saw their high school associations/teams collapse.

The philosophy of the HS league (wrong or right) is to create and preserve athletic competition throughout the state. To let a program cease to exist could create a negative ripple effect to other surrounding programs. The Northern teams and Minneapolis teams are what you call the exception due to my guess, economic times for one. I hope this will not be the trend in Bloomington and/or any other city. Just a thought.

Bullseye · Post by **Bullseye** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:28 pm

Looking at the numbers of the boys program including some girls playing with the boys.

Note these are not exact numbers but close. (If anyone with exact numbers wants to correct these please do)

Jefferson
Mites About 32 New kids with about 85 mites total ($290.00 first year)
Squirts 4 teams with about 60 kids
PW 3 teams with about 47 kids
Bantams 3 teams with 49 kids
Total about 241 kids

Kennedy/Richfield
Mites (Kennedy only don't know the Richfield Mite Numbers) About 16 new kids with about 55 mites total ($150.00 first year)
Squirts 2 teams 31 total
PW 4 teams about 55 kids
Bantams 2 teams about 30 kids
Total about 171 kids

Total 3 associations (not including Richfield Mites)
About 412 kids

Separately 3 associations not good numbers, together better. What makes it better is that kids are playing at more appropriate level against more appropriate competition.

Competition being the key word. Many of these teams are out matched even before they step on the ice. Yes you can say there will always be a winner and a loser, but when a team can not compete and one team gets blown out, both teams lose.

There are many Families on both sides of the tracks that want this to happen. It was recently brought up at a Jefferson Association Meeting. Yes it was shot down quickly but now thanks to the one who actually had the balls to stand up and bring this out in the open, it is being talked about more loudly at BIG, amongst both sides.

Kennedy has the people who say they don't need or want it, but those are the ones who complain the loudest about losing and things are never fair. Are they afraid of change, are they afraid to admit that they need this too. Playing the teams at the wrong levels also hurts, but they also know that if they do not have an "A" team they will lose their top players, so they are forced to play up at a level they don't belong.

There is always the bickering in the halls. Jefferson got more ice than us. Kennedy is getting better time slots than us. Why do we have to play our games on Rink 2, blah, blah, blah, blah.....

If the old timers can not see the decline of the Hockey Program in General in Bloomington, Wake up. It is not going to get better. The Good Ole days are done. We have troubles competing with Waconia, Lakeville South, other smaller, newer cities that are attracting Families. Don't get me wrong both of the above mentioned teams and others are good and have good players.

Funny thing is open enrollment has allowed this to happen. Look at the past few years and see how many kids are actually Kennedy kids playing on Jefferson Teams. Some of the top players on those teams are the Kennedy kids. Don't allow open enrollment and things will probably be different. Trust me it isn't all because of Hockey that open enrollment happens, the two High Schools are not equal. When you have board members admitting that the education is not equal then you know something needs to change.

Times have changed, so must we. We are the 5th largest city in MN and our hockey numbers have been on a steady decline from four years ago when Kennedy Mites had their largest numbers in years with about 79 and Jefferson was at about 139 mites. We all know hockey is not cheap and there are kids who want to be competitive and do a lot of extra training and there are the kids who want to have fun and just play. Right now this system is broken and needs to be fixed. Is it going to be fixed overnight, NO, but lets get it rolling.

Right now I can not tell you what will happen with the High School teams, Right now I can tell you that this will help with the youth teams. We are losing kids because they are not having fun losing. There are many Bloomington kids who are playing in the PeeWee Rec league, so they can still play. Maybe we could retain some of these kids.

This blog was started almost 2 years ago, but now it is gaining a head of steam. Their are people from both sides who are gathering info and making a plan and hopefully we can have a Town Meeting to get this info out.

First of all it would be nice to see BAHA step up and set up a survey on whether to pursue this further. Let's hear from the Majority, and see what we want. Being that BAHA is the governing body of both Associations.

Night Train · Post by **Night Train** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:59 pm

A single youth association would help attract and retain more players. The point about more kids playing at the appropriate level is an important one. More kids will have fun and success by playing at the right level. By growing the single association both high schools would get more and better players in the future. Long term you'd like to avoid the single high school team but it will take 3-4 years as a single youth association to determine the HS future.

Are the girls already merged? Is it working well for them?

auld_skool · Post by **auld_skool** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:38 pm

Night Train wrote:A single youth association would help attract and retain more players. The point about more kids playing at the appropriate level is an important one. More kids will have fun and success by playing at the right level. By growing the single association both high schools would get more and better players in the future. Long term you'd like to avoid the single high school team but it will take 3-4 years as a single youth association to determine the HS future.

Are the girls already merged? Is it working well for them?

I'll give you my $.02 on a couple of your points. First, like I said earlier, it's going to be an uphill battle to get the youth programs merged if the High Schools don't. I say this because I know at least one of the HS coaches has said that more than once. His reason? I'm going to assume he doesn't want to be caught in the middle when a kid from the other side of town wants to switch to his to play hockey for him.

As far as the girls...yeah, it's kinda working in the sense that without being combined there probably wouldn't be enough girls on either side on a regular basis to have a girls program. So yes, at least girls get to play hockey. There are things they might do better but the whole thing is only possible due to a TON of work by a VERY FEW people so let's just say there are other issues.

And I want to say I agree with your original statements...I think you're 100% right. Getting there though is anywhere from very tough to impossible.

Bullseye · Post by **Bullseye** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:13 am

Well if Bloomington Public Schools sticks to their guns neither coach will have to worry about kids switching schools, unless they move to another house. I was just informed of the new rule of transferring to the other High School. As of 1/12/12 they no longer will allow kids to transfer to Jefferson if their home school is Kennedy. Lets see how long this last.

In-District Transfer
Transfers within Bloomington

Parents/guardians who live in Bloomington and would like their student to attend a school other than the student’s school of residence the following year may complete an Intra-District transfer request. (See Policy 503.2 Student Assignment/ Transfers on the School Board Policies & Regulations web page.)

Requests must be submitted during the enrollment dates listed below for each grade level, and should be submitted online. The online request website will not be open to submissions outside of these dates. If you are unable to complete the request online, please contact your current school office for assistance. You can also fill out and submit a paper copy to your school: Elementary Paper Copy and Secondary Paper Copy.

Parents/guardians are encouraged to submit requests early in the process. Transfers will be subject to available space and limited to ensure enrollment balance among the schools. Upon receipt of the request, you will be sent an e-mail that will indicate when to expect action on the request.

If you have any questions, please contact your current school principal.

Transfer Request Dates

Grades 9-12
November 1, 2011 – August 24, 2012
Please note: As of Jan. 12, all transfer requests from Kennedy to Jefferson high school have been closed.

Now with this said, how do other programs that have merged or are merged do it. Anyone from Cooper / Armstrong, Chaska / Chan. or any others that could tell how it is going or how it works.

It will be quite interesting what will happen if this continues and lets say neither HS team is ever competitive again. With this, and truthfully this is how it should be, (no transfers) what is stopping a merger. BAHA is already set up, they can now run the Youth Program for the betterment of the Community. Let's get Hockey and the kids back in Bloomington

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Future of Bloomington Hockey, Jaguars or Eagles, or Bears

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