Girls moving up to high school hockey.

[old goalie85]

Is it bad for the high school team to pull girls up?

[Not Ready]

At the U12 or PW, if it's not necessary then no.

Being this is a girls thread at U12 the skater will be missing action against the most competitive skaters in the state (best skaters play U12A). 35 plus games and as a young skater they may play a half dozen games. No promises are made at HS.

Especially no if it's detrimental to the program and the player.

Many high school coaches have no idea of the talent brewing at the U12 level of hockey. Many U12A teams can beat 14's and JV teams.

Once the kids reach 14's and Bantams it's a free for all. High schools take em.

[observer]

If only to fill out a JV roster, yes.

Every situation is wildly different so very difficult to generalize.

One often repeated measure is, first two lines varsity make the move. Otherwise, play 12U or 14U.

Keeping the JV level alive, and the JV Coaches job, isn't the responsibility of any youth association hockey family.

Recruit 30 new girls every year in order for this discussion to go away in the future.

[Not Ready]

If only to fill out a JV roster, yes.

Every situation is wildly different so very difficult to generalize.

......................................................................................

Keeping the JV level alive, and the JV Coaches job, isn't the responsibility of any youth association hockey family.

Recruit 30 new girls every year in order for this discussion to go away in the future.

I'll add, recruit goalies.

You nailed it!

[old goalie85]

In forest Lake we don't have huge #'s of girls yet. so the 12's tend to get depleted. I understand the J.V. needs kids but I wonder if in the long run it does not hurt more than helps. [Also have four boys varsity coach will not pull any from youth ranks]

[mnhcp]

Wait. It sounds like a JV coach greasing the parents of a 12A. It sounds like the 12's will suffer as a result of the departure. Sure this might be good for your daughter (SHORT TERM) to play 12 games vs 40 but slow down, help her team mates (and the relationships that will also be ruined). Sounds like some 12A's will be left high and dry. Very selfish on both the high schools part and parents. If the kid says yes, then it's normally really the parents steering. At 14's and Bantams this is expected (the move up).

Will they be starting 1st line stars? Then I just might change my mind but only slightly. Usually the kids (parents) we are talking about are average to just above average at best vs stars (girls).

[Cut Above]

Every situation is different as an earlier poster said.

Will this harm the youth program and is it necessary?

I'm assuming we're not talking 14's or Bantams.

This is a girls thread so I have to assuming we're talking a 12 or U12A?

I'm going out on a limb here, I'm also assuming it will have a negative impact on the 12A's or you wouldn't be posting.

Assuming I'm right, why? Really, why? It sounds like dine and ditch to me!

These girls will have the opportunity to play 2 to 4 years of HS together, why rush it? Why permanently ruin relationships and opportunity to develop as a team?

Why wouldn't every girl want to play U12A hockey?

[hockeyparent99]

Everyone is so quick to judge the player and the parents when these decisions are made. In some instances, the 12 program is so weak that the player would build bad habits (term puck hog come to mind) because there isn't enough talent on the 12 team to play 'with' them. Or think about the fact that maybe they truly are good enough to play 1st or 2nd line varsity, is really keeping them back at the 12 level in their best interest? It seems to me the parents and players that get most offended by these decisions are the parents with players that are average, and they feel 'left behind'. Each family, association, and even player in that family is different. Also from personal experience, my players have never played more than 26-28 games in a youth seasons, the 35-40 games has never been there, so 25 games at high school was not that big of a difference. Again, truly dependent on the association and coach in the youth program as well in regard to how many games and scrimmages the teams get. There is really on right or wrong answer - it may work for some and may not for others.

[observer]

Unfortunately the two most quoted reasons to make the move to high school before a player is done with youth hockey aren't hockey skill specific.

#1 Cost
#2 Transportation (if you have 2-3-4 skaters in the house removing one from the carpool can be a relief after 5-6 years of driving)

The high school team does skate 6 days a week and the times are generally better and more consistent. HS season is shorter.

I'd suggest staying with the youth association but you never know all the parts of the families decision. For hockey purposes, stay.

[old goalie85]

My daughter is still a 10. I'm talking from a whats good for the program point of view. [ she is nowhere near good enough to move up]

[Cut Above]

Everyone is so quick to judge the player and the parents when these decisions are made. In some instances, the 12 program is so weak that the player would build bad habits (term puck hog come to mind) because there isn't enough talent on the 12 team to play 'with' them. Or think about the fact that maybe they truly are good enough to play 1st or 2nd line varsity, is really keeping them back at the 12 level in their best interest? It seems to me the parents and players that get most offended by these decisions are the parents with players that are average, and they feel 'left behind'. Each family, association, and even player in that family is different. Also from personal experience, my players have never played more than 26-28 games in a youth seasons, the 35-40 games has never been there, so 25 games at high school was not that big of a difference. Again, truly dependent on the association and coach in the youth program as well in regard to how many games and scrimmages the teams get. There is really on right or wrong answer - it may work for some and may not for others.

If Wayne Gretzky ie 1st or 2nd line HS (7th grader)...then maybe. But remember, association hockey is really about building the program. There is definately some sacrifice. I've seen selfish families ruin programs or levels of hockey on the girls side too many times. AAA hockey is the real season.

Per Observer:
Recruit 30 new girls every year in order for this discussion to go away in the future.

[royals dad]

[quote]Unfortunately the two most quoted reasons to make the move to high school before a player is done with youth hockey aren't hockey skill specific.

#1 Cost
#2 Transportation (if you have 2-3-4 skaters in the house removing one from the carpool can be a relief after 5-6 years of driving)"
[quote]

#1 Is pretty much false, at many schools you will end up doing fund raising, paying for captains practice, plus 3 vs 3 or OS league, and apparel. Costs add up and it is pretty much a wash.

#2 for practice this might be more of a headache as many middle school JR highs are not served by an activity bus and practice is often close to when school gets out. For games you will drive them to the bus then drive to the game and then pick them up from the bus. Again for most a bit of a wash.

#3 Sundays off - Nice family benefit

#4 If you have a good program your daughter can get some great mentorship from student athletes that are where you hope your daughter will be in 4 or 5 years (high GPA great hockey player). If your program is weaker on the academics or less positive towards younger players this might be a negative.

#5 The opportunity to practice with players at a higher skill and hockey maturity level. In a good program they will be pushed by players competing for JV and Varsity ice time everyday.

#6 For the most part coaching is a known quantity before the season. We did see a bunch of coaching changes go late into the summer but I think all but 1 or 2 are now set for the season. Often associtions have to wait to see who makes what teams before confirming parent coaches.

#7 With few exceptions girls travel has parent coaches HS is the opposite. This can be a plus or a minus depending on the situation.

#8 Opportunity for additional games, Elite Leagues, 3 vs 3 (hat trick and velocity), OS league (JV/V) have all become options for more games either as a team or signed up as individual for girls who were HS last season. Added to a AAA season many of the HS players go year round.

#9 Captains practice - at many programs the booster club will hire an out of program coach or former player to help run captains practice. This can makes these a good mini camp.

#10 Off season training - the top programs have on and off ice summer programs usually they will split youth players out to different sessions so the JV/V players are together for these.

That is just my top ten. I have daughters who are on both paths what is good for one is not always best for the other.

It is a difficult decision for a parent to help a player navigate, good luck to those who are in those shoes right now.

On a side note although I agree that recruiting is important I know that many of the tiny associations work as hard or harder at it then some of the super sized ones. There are places where they get 60 u8s by sending a sign up sheet home in the Kindergarten backpacks and other places that get 6 u8s with face to face recruiting in school open houses and call trees. Don't judge the effort by the result.

[mnhcp]

Unfortunately the two most quoted reasons to make the move to high school before a player is done with youth hockey aren't hockey skill specific.

#1 Cost
#2 Transportation (if you have 2-3-4 skaters in the house removing one from the carpool can be a relief after 5-6 years of driving)"

#1 Is pretty much false, at many schools you will end up doing fund raising, paying for captains practice, plus 3 vs 3 or OS league, and apparel. Costs add up and it is pretty much a wash.

#2 for practice this might be more of a headache as many middle school JR highs are not served by an activity bus and practice is often close to when school gets out. For games you will drive them to the bus then drive to the game and then pick them up from the bus. Again for most a bit of a wash.

#3 Sundays off - Nice family benefit

#4 If you have a good program your daughter can get some great mentorship from student athletes that are where you hope your daughter will be in 4 or 5 years (high GPA great hockey player). If your program is weaker on the academics or less positive towards younger players this might be a negative.

#5 The opportunity to practice with players at a higher skill and hockey maturity level. In a good program they will be pushed by players competing for JV and Varsity ice time everyday.

#6 For the most part coaching is a known quantity before the season. We did see a bunch of coaching changes go late into the summer but I think all but 1 or 2 are now set for the season. Often associtions have to wait to see who makes what teams before confirming parent coaches.

#7 With few exceptions girls travel has parent coaches HS is the opposite. This can be a plus or a minus depending on the situation.

#8 Opportunity for additional games, Elite Leagues, 3 vs 3 (hat trick and velocity), OS league (JV/V) have all become options for more games either as a team or signed up as individual for girls who were HS last season. Added to a AAA season many of the HS players go year round.

#9 Captains practice - at many programs the booster club will hire an out of program coach or former player to help run captains practice. This can makes these a good mini camp.

#10 Off season training - the top programs have on and off ice summer programs usually they will split youth players out to different sessions so the JV/V players are together for these.

That is just my top ten. I have daughters who are on both paths what is good for one is not always best for the other.

It is a difficult decision for a parent to help a player navigate, good luck to those who are in those shoes right now.

On a side note although I agree that recruiting is important I know that many of the tiny associations work as hard or harder at it then some of the super sized ones. There are places where they get 60 u8s by sending a sign up sheet home in the Kindergarten backpacks and other places that get 6 u8s with face to face recruiting in school open houses and call trees. Don't judge the effort by the result.

#4 = An example of a negative, your daughter can grow up really fast with unsupervised locker room talk.
#5 = It's great to practice with players that push you. However, playing games or sitting on the bench with JV/Varsity players is different. Being pushed in a game situation isn't usually best for development.
#8 = Being off season this is a wash. In season, more games at youth. How many games will a 7th grader play.
#9 = 7th grader can still attend captains practice
#10 = 7th grader can still attend and hopefully be w/ the JV or Varsity if there are other youths.

[royals dad]

#4 = An example of a negative, your daughter can grow up really fast with unsupervised locker room talk.
#5 = It's great to practice with players that push you. However, playing games or sitting on the bench with JV/Varsity players is different. Being pushed in a game situation isn't usually best for development.
#8 = Being off season this is a wash. In season, more games at youth. How many games will a 7th grader play.
#9 = 7th grader can still attend captains practice
#10 = 7th grader can still attend and hopefully be w/ the JV or Varsity if there are other youths.

#4 Sure can go either way, in our case it has been a positive. That is because the players and coaches have made it that way. Daughters grow up really fast regardless we try to keep grades up and open communication lines and hope for the best. In my family we have had more trouble with a U10 locker room and bullying than the varsity one. Could be vastly different for other situations.

#5 Playing at a level lower than your skill level can also be a negative, so it really can go either way.

#8 These are all games that will be happening off season for HS but not for youth so this is not a wash. If you are a youth player you can not try out for elites or the OS varsity league. SO this is not a "wash" they were specifically created to satisfy the HS "not enough games" argument.

#9 Not in many programs generally only girls who are trying out attend captains practice. If you tried out for a travel team it would be unlikley that you would go to captains.

#10 I only know of the ones around us but the coaches I know do not want to take some subjectively so they will say JV/V (and u14 age outs) in one group and youth in the other.

I was just going from my personal experience. But as often has been said it is not a black and white situation, everyone has different factors to weigh. The kids we are talking about are those who are excelling beyond their birth year it is not an easy decision or one that most parents take lightly.

[Pens4]

That is a great list of pro's & con's...I don't really disagree with any of them. Let me throw out something else...all hockey player have a natural progression of skills and mental maturity that allows them to understand and play the game at a high level.

Our goal should be to put them in an environment that facilitates them reaching that next level. Put them in over their heads and it will stifle confidence, creativity and they will turn into a dump and chase role player. Every transition to the next level of play requires that player to make adjustments and if they are overwhelmed by the competition or don't get enough ice time to make the transition...they will regress back to a position of safety.

I have been lucky to be associated with a really good group of players at the 12 level last year. This summer we transitioned to the 14 level and started the summer in the Two Nations league at the 14 level. The 1st weekend in North Dakota they were 1-4. This group of probably the best 12's in the state found out it was a whole different game when playing against 15 year olds.

They made the transition during the summer and those girls had success at the 14 level but it took all summer. I try to imagine this same group a girls going from 12's and playing high school. Instead of playing 15 year olds...they are grinding it out against the likes of Reber, Crowe and the Ramsey’s of the world. They are not mentally or physically strong enough to expand their game to that level yet.

Don’t be in such a hurry to become a role player on the team….eventually they will reach a level that requires that. Take advantage of the natural progression to expand those roles.

[Not Ready]

If I wasn't clear, I was assuming we are talking about 12's. My son made the 2nd line Varsity as a 9th grade Bantam so we to have seen both sides. The rosters are usually deep enough in the Youth Program to allow for this. Where on the girls side when my daughter reaches 14's there won't be enough kids left at 14's because the high school has taken the better skaters. At this point it's survival of the fittest (some programs don't even have goalies at 14's). It just seems to me at 12's it's completely unnecessary and often damaging to a program.

So we've made a long term decision for our daughter (as have other families) to stay with her 12 team this year and help them all so she has greater success in high school. In HS there are no promises, at 12A it's competitive, plenty of ice and yes 40 games.

Don't forget the 12's season (PW) starts earlier and a player departing a month or 2 into the season for HS is also wrong.

[Not Ready]

That is a great list of pro's & con's...I don't really disagree with any of them. Let me throw out something else...all hockey player have a natural progression of skills and mental maturity that allows them to understand and play the game at a high level.

Our goal should be to put them in an environment that facilitates them reaching that next level. Put them in over their heads and it will stifle confidence, creativity and they will turn into a dump and chase role player. Every transition to the next level of play requires that player to make adjustments and if they are overwhelmed by the competition or don't get enough ice time to make the transition...they will regress back to a position of safety.

I have been lucky to be associated with a really good group of players at the 12 level last year. This summer we transitioned to the 14 level and started the summer in the Two Nations league at the 14 level. The 1st weekend in North Dakota they were 1-4. This group of probably the best 12's in the state found out it was a whole different game when playing against 15 year olds.

They made the transition during the summer and those girls had success at the 14 level but it took all summer. I try to imagine this same group a girls going from 12's and playing high school. Instead of playing 15 year olds...they are grinding it out against the likes of Reber, Crowe and the Ramsey’s of the world. They are not mentally or physically strong enough to expand their game to that level yet.

Don’t be in such a hurry to become a role player on the team….eventually they will reach a level that requires that. Take advantage of the natural progression to expand those roles.

Great post!

[old goalie85]

Sounds like two U12 girls from F.L. will be allowed to try out for the high school team.

[observer]

Anyone that attends FL schools is "allowed" to try out for the FL High School team.

[nickel slots]

Anyone that attends FL schools is "allowed" to try out for the FL High School team.

From the MSHSL Handbook:

BYLAW 105.00 GRADE LEVEL ELIGIBILITY
Cross Reference: Bylaw 302 (Cities of the First Class), Bylaw 109 (Seasons of Participation)
and Bylaw 303.4 (Junior High School Bylaws)

Participation in League-sponsored programs is limited to students in grades 7 through 12. Students in grade 7, 8, and 9 may participate only if they are enrolled in a continuation school for that high school.

Elementary students in grades K-6 are not eligible to participate in any League activities.

In other words, anybody in grades 7-12 can tryout for any varsity sport in that school district. That doesn't mean the coach can't cut them and send them back to youth or junior high athletics.

[old goalie85]

Thank you for the info. Our boys coach will not take 9th graders. Hope girls coaches take the same stance soon.

[Cut Above]

Anyone that attends FL schools is "allowed" to try out for the FL High School team.

From the MSHSL Handbook:

BYLAW 105.00 GRADE LEVEL ELIGIBILITY
Cross Reference: Bylaw 302 (Cities of the First Class), Bylaw 109 (Seasons of Participation)
and Bylaw 303.4 (Junior High School Bylaws)

Participation in League-sponsored programs is limited to students in grades 7 through 12. Students in grade 7, 8, and 9 may participate only if they are enrolled in a continuation school for that high school.

Elementary students in grades K-6 are not eligible to participate in any League activities.

In other words, anybody in grades 7-12 can tryout for any varsity sport in that school district. That doesn't mean the coach can't cut them and send them back to youth or junior high athletics.

Now suppose my kid goes to Catholic Jr High through the 8th grade. She has every intention of going to the Public High School in 9th grade. Is she eligible to play HS Hockey in 8th grade while still going to Catholic Jr High? I don't think I can register her for the Public HS until the spring of her 8th grade year.

What's throwing me off here is "enrolled in a continuation school for that high school". She's clearly in the school district.

[capitalist]

My kids registered for freshman year classes at their public middle school in the spring. Would your kid be able to do the same at his Catholic school? Doubtful. There is probably a definition of 'continuation' somewhere in the MSHSL file cabinets.

Catholic school 8th graders in St. Paul can't play for Cretin, even if they're registered to attend there for their freshman year.

Best answer: keep your 8th grader in U14 no matter what the rules say.

[MinnGirlsHockey]

Anyone that attends FL schools is "allowed" to try out for the FL High School team.

From the MSHSL Handbook:

BYLAW 105.00 GRADE LEVEL ELIGIBILITY
Cross Reference: Bylaw 302 (Cities of the First Class), Bylaw 109 (Seasons of Participation)
and Bylaw 303.4 (Junior High School Bylaws)

Participation in League-sponsored programs is limited to students in grades 7 through 12. Students in grade 7, 8, and 9 may participate only if they are enrolled in a continuation school for that high school.

Elementary students in grades K-6 are not eligible to participate in any League activities.

In other words, anybody in grades 7-12 can tryout for any varsity sport in that school district. That doesn't mean the coach can't cut them and send them back to youth or junior high athletics.

Now suppose my kid goes to Catholic Jr High through the 8th grade. She has every intention of going to the Public High School in 9th grade. Is she eligible to play HS Hockey in 8th grade while still going to Catholic Jr High? I don't think I can register her for the Public HS until the spring of her 8th grade year.

What's throwing me off here is "enrolled in a continuation school for that high school". She's clearly in the school district.

FYI - BYLAW 105.00 also contains the following definitions:

Definitions:
1. A Continuation School is one that is under the same administrative head and governing board.
2. A student in grades 7, 8, or 9, who attends a school under a separate administrative head and governing board; which does not have a continuation high school; and where no other opportunity for participation on a high school team exists; is eligible to participate for a public high school team provided the public high school and the non-continuation school have established a joint agreement for participation in League Activities. The non-continuation school must be located in the public high school district as defined below.
3. Public high school district: The term “High School District" shall refer to the territory assigned to a specific high school by a Board of Education and shall not refer to a school system except in cases in which only one high school exists in a school system.

Last year I heard of one local public high school which allowed a few 8th graders attending a couple nearby K-8 Catholic schools to try out for its Girls Hockey program (I think at least 1 of them made the JV team)...I assume they must have had this "joint agreement" (described in definition #2 above) in place.

[sinbin]

Our school, while it has a strong high school program, forbids freshmen and younger from playing in HS. So, our JV team is composed primarily of seniors and lifelong youth 'B' players who will likely never play varsity, either. They feel development is better in 14U than JV.