How much is the fire including travel

[Task Force 34]

Here's the ones I'm pretty sure of:

Northfield
St. Francis
New Prague
New Ulm
Mound
St. Louis Park
Eagan
Bloomington Kennedy
River Falls
Hudson
Chippewa Falls
Chaska
North Branch

Not exactly powerhouse, large associations.

[InigoMontoya]

I can see why D6 spends so much time on this issue.

[Task Force 34]

I assume you are kidding about D6?

[standout4thlinejver]

Task Force 34-

Do you know if one of the 97 goalies is from Lakeville?

[Task Force 34]

Nope - no Lakeville goalie

[JSR]

JSR - The Fire mainly practice at MM and play their home games in Sommerset.

Royals Dad - If you look at the Machine teams they are essentially the Fire teams with the exception of maybe a few kids for the most part. You are light when you say that 50% of their practices are at MM, I bet it is more like 70% or more.

I think it is ridiculous that the Fire have to walk such a fine line. Who cares what the Fire do? If they want to play Tier 1 AAA hockey in the winter and have all MN kids then so be it. If people spent the same amount of time trying to improve their association as they do trying to shut down the Fire we would have great association hockey.

Here is a link to their website:

http://firehockey.pucksystems2.com

For the '00's I am seeing half their practices in Sommerset and half at MM. I see home games in Sommerset, and away game sin St. Louis, Illinois and Wisconsin

For teh 97's I see about half their practices in Sommerset, zero at MM, and the other half at Ridder or Marriuci with games/tourneys in WI, MO, IL, MI and MN.

As for rosters, Task Force does a nice job explianing in his posts.

I guess I am not sure where you got the 70/30 thing or where they are "essentially' Machine teams when the facts say otherwise. Yes some Machine players play on the team and BM is involved but that seems to be where the connection ends from what I can see. I haev no doubt that the people behind the team want year round Tier 1 for MN kids and this is probably a way for them to do it in the meantime, so I don't doubt that either. I also don't care if they have it, I like Tier 1, I like it as an option, I think eveyrone shoudl haev that option. But i do think people on this board seem to excaggerate things based on opinion and innuendo isntead of actual fact sometimes.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

JSR - The Fire mainly practice at MM and play their home games in Sommerset.

Royals Dad - If you look at the Machine teams they are essentially the Fire teams with the exception of maybe a few kids for the most part. You are light when you say that 50% of their practices are at MM, I bet it is more like 70% or more.

I think it is ridiculous that the Fire have to walk such a fine line. Who cares what the Fire do? If they want to play Tier 1 AAA hockey in the winter and have all MN kids then so be it. If people spent the same amount of time trying to improve their association as they do trying to shut down the Fire we would have great association hockey.

Here is a link to their website:

http://firehockey.pucksystems2.com

For the '00's I am seeing half their practices in Sommerset and half at MM. I see home games in Sommerset, and away game sin St. Louis, Illinois and Wisconsin

For teh 97's I see about half their practices in Sommerset, zero at MM, and the other half at Ridder or Marriuci with games/tourneys in WI, MO, IL, MI and MN.

As for rosters, Task Force does a nice job explianing in his posts.

I guess I am not sure where you got the 70/30 thing or where they are "essentially' Machine teams when the facts say otherwise. Yes some Machine players play on the team and BM is involved but that seems to be where the connection ends from what I can see. I haev no doubt that the people behind the team want year round Tier 1 for MN kids and this is probably a way for them to do it in the meantime, so I don't doubt that either. I also don't care if they have it, I like Tier 1, I like it as an option, I think eveyrone shoudl haev that option. But i do think people on this board seem to excaggerate things based on opinion and innuendo isntead of actual fact sometimes.

Let I got no problem with the Fire ... let them play. But to say BM is involved is putting it mildly. His business is hockey and this is hockey so to think it doesn't involve MM is ... well naive. Again I don't care but just adding my 2 cents.

[JSR]

JSR - The Fire mainly practice at MM and play their home games in Sommerset.

Royals Dad - If you look at the Machine teams they are essentially the Fire teams with the exception of maybe a few kids for the most part. You are light when you say that 50% of their practices are at MM, I bet it is more like 70% or more.

I think it is ridiculous that the Fire have to walk such a fine line. Who cares what the Fire do? If they want to play Tier 1 AAA hockey in the winter and have all MN kids then so be it. If people spent the same amount of time trying to improve their association as they do trying to shut down the Fire we would have great association hockey.

Here is a link to their website:

http://firehockey.pucksystems2.com

For the '00's I am seeing half their practices in Sommerset and half at MM. I see home games in Sommerset, and away game sin St. Louis, Illinois and Wisconsin

For teh 97's I see about half their practices in Sommerset, zero at MM, and the other half at Ridder or Marriuci with games/tourneys in WI, MO, IL, MI and MN.

As for rosters, Task Force does a nice job explianing in his posts.

I guess I am not sure where you got the 70/30 thing or where they are "essentially' Machine teams when the facts say otherwise. Yes some Machine players play on the team and BM is involved but that seems to be where the connection ends from what I can see. I haev no doubt that the people behind the team want year round Tier 1 for MN kids and this is probably a way for them to do it in the meantime, so I don't doubt that either. I also don't care if they have it, I like Tier 1, I like it as an option, I think eveyrone shoudl haev that option. But i do think people on this board seem to excaggerate things based on opinion and innuendo isntead of actual fact sometimes.

Let I got no problem with the Fire ... let them play. But to say BM is involved is putting it mildly. His business is hockey and this is hockey so to think it doesn't involve MM is ... well naive. Again I don't care but just adding my 2 cents.

I'm not naive, not even close. BM's business is hockey but I know alot of guys who's business is hockey and not every venture they partake in is directly related to their other ventures. It is possible to be involved in two separate ventures simultaneously. If MN ruless alllowed it, would it be part of MM, quite possibly but for now it's not and doesn't seem to be is all I am saying.

[MrBoDangles]

Here's the ones I'm pretty sure of:

Northfield
St. Francis
New Prague
New Ulm
Mound
St. Louis Park
Eagan
Bloomington Kennedy
River Falls
Hudson
Chippewa Falls
Chaska
North Branch

And some people think the Minnesota Model is perfect for everyone......

North Branch will have 17 Peewees and 23 Squirts, four of those being beginn ers. Some people on here can't begin to imagine that the top player shouldn't be playing with the 17 kid. They are blinded by their own successful association.

Tier 1 options are needed

Not exactly powerhouse, large associations.

[Quasar]

Here's the ones I'm pretty sure of:

Northfield
St. Francis
New Prague
New Ulm
Mound
St. Louis Park
Eagan
Bloomington Kennedy
River Falls
Hudson
Chippewa Falls
Chaska
North Branch

And some people think the Minnesota Model is perfect for everyone......

North Branch will have 17 Peewees and 23 Squirts, four of those being beginn ers. Some people on here can't begin to imagine that the top player shouldn't be playing with the 17 kid. They are blinded by their own successful association.

Tier 1 options are needed

Not exactly powerhouse, large associations.

Or ... How about the kid from Mound that lives 15 minutes away from two teams that went to state last year?? Nope....MN Hockey would rather make the kid and his parents drive 3 or 4 hours round trip 4 time a week.
How about some kind of waiver program. Oh wait ..That would mean somebody would get bumped by a kid from down the road..

And as we see these problems throughout the state and complain ....
The powers that be .. say "No Tier 1 hockey in our state" !!!

[urban iceman]

Here's the ones I'm pretty sure of:

Northfield
St. Francis
New Prague
New Ulm
Mound
St. Louis Park
Eagan
Bloomington Kennedy
River Falls
Hudson
Chippewa Falls
Chaska
North Branch

Not exactly powerhouse, large associations.

Is there a 95 level anymore? And who do I contact? we are from a small assoc. and the HS coach decided to take 4 Bantams up to the Varsity (without a tryout) and has decimated an otherwise very good Bantam A team. Need to move to better competition before HS next year because we must play at B1 level now!!

[Quasar]

Here's the ones I'm pretty sure of:

Northfield
St. Francis
New Prague
New Ulm
Mound
St. Louis Park
Eagan
Bloomington Kennedy
River Falls
Hudson
Chippewa Falls
Chaska
North Branch

Not exactly powerhouse, large associations.

Is there a 95 level anymore? And who do I contact? we are from a small assoc. and the HS coach decided to take 4 Bantams up to the Varsity (without a tryout) and has decimated an otherwise very good Bantam A team. Need to move to better competition before HS next year because we must play at B1 level now!!

I don't think there is any other level than Bantam in the state. Midgets were done away with long ago. You may be able to get a waiver to play on an A team somewhere, but I think it would be next to impossible. This is the reason many of us would like to see some kind of choice in Minnesota hockey..

Perhaps someone like Greybeard87 can give you a better answer...
how about it ...Can any one out there answer this question??

[hockeyrocks87]

JSR - Don't believe everything you read on the calendar. You're getting a small piece of the picture (smoke & mirrors). The bottom line is who really cares, they should just let the team operate out of MN and most of the drama would go away.

[O-townClown]

Who cares what the Fire do? If they want to play Tier 1 AAA hockey in the winter and have all MN kids then so be it. If people spent the same amount of time trying to improve their association as they do trying to shut down the Fire we would have great association hockey.

Nobody cares until they register with USA Hockey under one of its affiliates. If the Fire folks tried to improve their association nobody would care. How strong is hockey in Somerset, Wisconsin? So strong that they came up with an idea to field teams comprised almost entirely from other places.

Nice.

[O-townClown]

And some people think the Minnesota Model is perfect for everyone......

North Branch will have 17 Peewees and 23 Squirts, four of those being beginn ers. Some people on here can't begin to imagine that the top player shouldn't be playing with the 17 kid. They are blinded by their own successful association.

Tier 1 options are needed

Not exactly powerhouse, large associations.

I have never heard that Minnesota's hockey model is perfect for everyone. Have you? What usually is stated is that it is best for most.

North Branch has numbers like many programs throughout the country. While one can say that kids outside of Minnesota can play on Tier I teams, how feasible is that for those playing in Montana, South Dakota, Wyoming, Hawaii, New Mexico, and other areas? North Branch is only an anomaly in Minnesota; it really isn't that unusual.

What "people on here" can't imagine that kids of disparate ability should be on different teams? The focus in North Branch should be to build a program where more than 40 kids from ages 9 through 12 play hockey. Those are anemic number, which begs the question why does North Branch have its own program? Facing virtually identical circumstances, what I see are programs working diligently to build their numbers so they can field more teams, thus allowing them to reduce the gulf between each team's strongest and least experienced players.

Minnesota Hockey governance should not place the wants of the hypothetical top player in an association like North Branch over the overriding need to have some semblance of order. Also, I don't see how Tier I hockey does anything for this hypothetical kid that Tier II couldn't do. The fear I'd have with Tier I hockey in Minnesota is that not enough players fit in to the teams that form if the goal is solely to provide a more appropriate competitive option for some.

Finally, it gets harder to build a program when its top players leave. North Branch corrects its issues by having more strong players, not fewer.

[MrBoDangles]

And some people think the Minnesota Model is perfect for everyone......

North Branch will have 17 Peewees and 23 Squirts, four of those being beginn ers. Some people on here can't begin to imagine that the top player shouldn't be playing with the 17 kid. They are blinded by their own successful association.

Tier 1 options are needed

Not exactly powerhouse, large associations.

I have never heard that Minnesota's hockey model is perfect for everyone. Have you? What usually is stated is that it is best for most.

North Branch has numbers like many programs throughout the country. While one can say that kids outside of Minnesota can play on Tier I teams, how feasible is that for those playing in Montana, South Dakota, Wyoming, Hawaii, New Mexico, and other areas? North Branch is only an anomaly in Minnesota; it really isn't that unusual.

What "people on here" can't imagine that kids of disparate ability should be on different teams? The focus in North Branch should be to build a program where more than 40 kids from ages 9 through 12 play hockey. Those are anemic number, which begs the question why does North Branch have its own program? Facing virtually identical circumstances, what I see are programs working diligently to build their numbers so they can field more teams, thus allowing them to reduce the gulf between each team's strongest and least experienced players.

Minnesota Hockey governance should not place the wants of the hypothetical top player in an association like North Branch over the overriding need to have some semblance of order. Also, I don't see how Tier I hockey does anything for this hypothetical kid that Tier II couldn't do. The fear I'd have with Tier I hockey in Minnesota is that not enough players fit in to the teams that form if the goal is solely to provide a more appropriate competitive option for some.

Finally, it gets harder to build a program when its top players leave. North Branch corrects its issues by having more strong players, not fewer.

- Best for most? Your concern for the other kids is alarming. Do you know how some of these top end kids are treated in these small associations? Remember your comments about "pass the puck". You seem to get it every now and then....

- Your next comment???

- This comment you kinda explained the need for tier 1 from a small association standpoint.

- Now YOU go back for the need for something else other than association hockey. I agree! Tier 1, Tier 2.. I agree! How about both?

- The last comment...... So a Fire or Blades type player should be a sacrificial lamb and play with some c level skaters only to slow down their own development?

You wouldn't even think of doing this to your own tier 1 kid......... and if you say you would I call you a liar.

[JSR]

- Best for most? Your concern for the other kids is alarming. Do you know how some of these top end kids are treated in these small associations? Remember your comments about "pass the puck". You seem to get it every now and then....

One of the best and most insightful points made on here in a long time. This "scenario" is not good for anyone involved. Tier 1 ability kids in small associations are in a no win situation alot of the time.

[Task Force 34]

That's why most of those kids migrate to other programs. They are viewed as snobs or "superstar wanna be's" when all they really want is to play with other skilled kids in a competitive environment and skate more than the smaller associations can provide. Throw in non-parent coaching and there you have it.

It's not a whole lot more complex than that, really it isn't.

[SnowedIn]

And some people think the Minnesota Model is perfect for everyone......

North Branch will have 17 Peewees and 23 Squirts, four of those being beginn ers. Some people on here can't begin to imagine that the top player shouldn't be playing with the 17 kid. They are blinded by their own successful association.

Tier 1 options are needed

Not exactly powerhouse, large associations.

I have never heard that Minnesota's hockey model is perfect for everyone. Have you? What usually is stated is that it is best for most.

North Branch has numbers like many programs throughout the country. While one can say that kids outside of Minnesota can play on Tier I teams, how feasible is that for those playing in Montana, South Dakota, Wyoming, Hawaii, New Mexico, and other areas? North Branch is only an anomaly in Minnesota; it really isn't that unusual.

What "people on here" can't imagine that kids of disparate ability should be on different teams? The focus in North Branch should be to build a program where more than 40 kids from ages 9 through 12 play hockey. Those are anemic number, which begs the question why does North Branch have its own program? Facing virtually identical circumstances, what I see are programs working diligently to build their numbers so they can field more teams, thus allowing them to reduce the gulf between each team's strongest and least experienced players.

Minnesota Hockey governance should not place the wants of the hypothetical top player in an association like North Branch over the overriding need to have some semblance of order. Also, I don't see how Tier I hockey does anything for this hypothetical kid that Tier II couldn't do. The fear I'd have with Tier I hockey in Minnesota is that not enough players fit in to the teams that form if the goal is solely to provide a more appropriate competitive option for some.

Finally, it gets harder to build a program when its top players leave. North Branch corrects its issues by having more strong players, not fewer.

- Best for most? Your concern for the other kids is alarming. Do you know how some of these top end kids are treated in these small associations? Remember your comments about "pass the puck". You seem to get it every now and then....

- Your next comment???

- This comment you kinda explained the need for tier 1 from a small association standpoint.

- Now YOU go back for the need for something else other than association hockey. I agree! Tier 1, Tier 2.. I agree! How about both?

- The last comment...... So a Fire or Blades type player should be a sacrificial lamb and play with some c level skaters only to slow down their own development?

You wouldn't even think of doing this to your own tier 1 kid......... and if you say you would I call you a liar.

Tier 1 allows top players the option to play together. Some will opt for T1 this some will not. Benefits to these players: 1) Higher tempo practices 2) Increased number of reps 3) Increased aptitude for playmaking because working with faster players with better passing skills 4) More fun because they a playing and practicing with players with similar skills and learning much more then they would with a group that is less skilled 5) The opportunity to play against Tier 1 teams from the US and Canada.
Perfect option for top players THAT WANT THIS.

On the other hand some top players like to be the top 2 or 3 on their team and develop confidence and enjoy this situation. This scenario is provided by most association teams.

Ch Ch Ch Change. How about having both options available to our skaters? Yes it would mix up the current system of Association Hockey if Tier 1 teams start popping up all over the place. Could change things in a big way. But the current system does not offer the accelerated development available in Tier 1. Hockey is changing and maybe things need to change here in MN too.

The reasonable solution would be to limit the number of Tier 1 teams in the state to enable the top players an opportunity to play and develop in Tier 1, without infringing much on the current Association Model. In other states Tier 1 and Tier 11 co-oexist.

[Quasar]

That's why most of those kids migrate to other programs. They are viewed as snobs or "superstar wanna be's" when all they really want is to play with other skilled kids in a competitive environment and skate more than the smaller associations can provide. Throw in non-parent coaching and there you have it.

It's not a whole lot more complex than that, really it isn't.

North Branch removed themselves from a co-op agreement with Cambridge/Isanti that allowed for A traveling peewee and bantam.

This statement was taken from their July 2010 board meeting minutes..

CI Co-Op – North Branch board members are not interested in a traveling co-op with Cambridge
Isanti for next. We may have some Bantam level players that may want to be waived to CI and
potentially some of our PeeWee level players, but we are not interested in a full co-op.

I understand they are signing waivers for A players both in Peewee and Bantam... I don't know anything about the situation in North Branch, but it looks like they opted out of A traveling.. Not quite the scenario envisioned by OTC....

[observer]

we are from a small assoc. and the HS coach decided to take 4 Bantams up to the Varsity (without a tryout) and has decimated an otherwise very good Bantam A team. Need to move to better competition before HS next year because we must play at B1 level now!!

This is unfortunate and shouldn't happen. The HS coach has no control over the situation other than requesting the kids play high school to fill out a varsity or JV roster. It's up to the bantam players, and their families, to stick together to play out their youth years at Bantam A. If you know the players ask them why they would leave their bantam experience behind. (1. money, 2. transportation) I think it's a mistake and the kids will actually develop better at Bantam A with 50 games and 3-4 tournaments. And, the high school coach will get a better product next year. Just say no thanks.

It all goes back to recruiting 5-6 year olds. Recruit 30 new boys this year, and the following years, to improve the future and allow the players to play out their bantam years. The high school coach should play with what he's got. If he wants to put some energy into the youth program, including recruiting, that would be a good thing. Otherwise, stay away.

[Quasar]

we are from a small assoc. and the HS coach decided to take 4 Bantams up to the Varsity (without a tryout) and has decimated an otherwise very good Bantam A team. Need to move to better competition before HS next year because we must play at B1 level now!!

This is unfortunate and shouldn't happen. The HS coach has no control over the situation other than requesting the kids play high school to fill out a varsity or JV roster. It's up to the bantam players, and their families, to stick together to play out their youth years at Bantam A. If you know the players ask them why they would leave their bantam experience behind. (1. money, 2. transportation) I think it's a mistake and the kids will actually develop better at Bantam A with 50 games and 3-4 tournaments. And, the high school coach will get a better product next year. Just say no thanks.

It all goes back to recruiting 5-6 year olds. Recruit 30 new boys this year, and the following years, to improve the future and allow the players to play out their bantam years. The high school coach should play with what he's got. If he wants to put some energy into the youth program, including recruiting, that would be a good thing. Otherwise, stay away.

No kid ever says no to the varsity coach!!

Feeding the Minnesota high school league is the only reason Minnesota youth hockey exists in it's current form...

Minnesota Hockey will not allow AAA hockey in the state because they believe it will water down the High School league.
So ..if your one of the lucky ones tapped for varsity while still a bantam good for you. .. If not ..Tough...

[royals dad]

Minnesota Hockey will not allow AAA hockey in the state because they believe it will water down the High School league.
So ..if your one of the lucky ones tapped for varsity while still a bantam good for you. .. If not ..Tough...

How is this story any different if the kids go AAA vs Varsity? The kids left behind are still not good enough to have the same options. With AAA you just recreate this story much more often. I understand but disagree with your point of view but in this case your argument is backwards. The kids tapped for varsity arent lucky they are deemed good enough, the ones left behind are the same ones who would be left behind in year round AAA.

This is where Minn Hockey splits from ADM. ADM wants HPCs at Bantam (not lower) and Minn Hockey does not. ADM suggest Pewees play with a wide range of talent on teams and not in HPCs.

[JSR]

That's why most of those kids migrate to other programs. They are viewed as snobs or "superstar wanna be's" when all they really want is to play with other skilled kids in a competitive environment and skate more than the smaller associations can provide. Throw in non-parent coaching and there you have it.

It's not a whole lot more complex than that, really it isn't.

Don't forget the words "puck hog" and "overzealous parents" in there ......

Good post task force

[Quasar]

Minnesota Hockey will not allow AAA hockey in the state because they believe it will water down the High School league.
So ..if your one of the lucky ones tapped for varsity while still a bantam good for you. .. If not ..Tough...

How is this story any different if the kids go AAA vs Varsity? The kids left behind are still not good enough to have the same options. With AAA you just recreate this story much more often. I understand but disagree with your point of view but in this case your argument is backwards. The kids tapped for varsity arent lucky they are deemed good enough, the ones left behind are the same ones who would be left behind in year round AAA.

This is where Minn Hockey splits from ADM. ADM wants HPCs at Bantam (not lower) and Minn Hockey does not. ADM suggest Pewees play with a wide range of talent on teams and not in HPCs.

Once you've been there you will understand...
I'm tired of the old nobody is good enough for AAA ..
If you bothered to read the original post about the kid left out, you'll get the gist of my post.

And apparently you don't understand the fact that there is no AAA in Minnesota for them to go to...