How much is the fire including travel

[MrBoDangles]

Your son might be fortunate to play Hockey in Florida......... The training must be top notch.
Hard to believe, with only a thousand traveling age players that Florida can put out three tier 1's and a bunch of tier 2's. Only combining Wayzata, Anoka, and Forest Lake's numbers together I come up with all of Florida's.......

How's the housing market in Florida? Looking for a Minnesota neighbor?

They either start out with super human 5 year olds............ Or they have a better development model.............

[sorno82]

I guess we should just send Hal down to Florida and find the secret. I am assuming to play hockey in FLA is a huge commitment and requires a lot of passion. My guess is that the less skilled drop off rather quickly (generalization) leaving the higher skilled and passionate ones to continue developing.

I guess we will se in a few years if FLA starts kicking out 1st round picks. FLA also produces great football talent, so maybe its the water.

BTW, wasn't the TB GMs kid a AAA player down there and a B1-A player here?

[O-townClown]

I guess we should just send Hal down to Florida and find the secret. I am assuming to play hockey in FLA is a huge commitment and requires a lot of passion. My guess is that the less skilled drop off rather quickly (generalization) leaving the higher skilled and passionate ones to continue developing.

I guess we will se in a few years if FLA starts kicking out 1st round picks. FLA also produces great football talent, so maybe its the water.

BTW, wasn't the TB GMs kid a AAA player down there and a B1-A player here?

Sorn, I'm not sure how Bo drew his conclusions. He asked about the strength of the Tier I teams from Florida. Because you can't make a blanket statement since some are real strong and some aren't I shared some insight into how these teams are formed.

Yes, it requires a tremendous amount of family involvement in order to participate in Florida. There is basically a limitless ability to get on the ice. We're the ones going slowly, yet my son is on the ice about 125 days a year. (I have no trouble finding kids on the ice 200 days.)

Florida's Tier I isn't indicative of Florida's development model. The better players, whose parents can bear the cost, are targeted by these "AAA" or Tier I teams at a young age. On their own they aren't competitive nationally with the Top 10 teams. (Look at how badly the TPH Thunder got thumped at the 98 Super Series this weekend...that's another Tier I program in the Southeast. What's the point?) A very wealthy individual - I'm told a billionaire - sees to it that the 1998 Everblades AAA are strong. The 2000 Lightning just received a boost when a family involved in the LA Selects moved to Tampa, I think I was told to coach and run hockey schools in Florida.

Yes, you are right. Lawton's kid played on Brian Bradley's AAA '96 Lightning team. As those kids get older they have less and less success. They just don't have a pool feeding the team.

Some people see Tier I and want it. Some people see Tier I and want to puke.

[MrBoDangles]

I guess we should just send Hal down to Florida and find the secret. I am assuming to play hockey in FLA is a huge commitment and requires a lot of passion. My guess is that the less skilled drop off rather quickly (generalization) leaving the higher skilled and passionate ones to continue developing.

I guess we will se in a few years if FLA starts kicking out 1st round picks. FLA also produces great football talent, so maybe its the water.

BTW, wasn't the TB GMs kid a AAA player down there and a B1-A player here?

Sorn, I'm not sure how Bo drew his conclusions. He asked about the strength of the Tier I teams from Florida. Because you can't make a blanket statement since some are real strong and some aren't I shared some insight into how these teams are formed.

Yes, it requires a tremendous amount of family involvement in order to participate in Florida. There is basically a limitless ability to get on the ice. We're the ones going slowly, yet my son is on the ice about 125 days a year. (I have no trouble finding kids on the ice 200 days.)

Florida's Tier I isn't indicative of Florida's development model. The better players, whose parents can bear the cost, are targeted by these "AAA" or Tier I teams at a young age. On their own they aren't competitive nationally with the Top 10 teams. (Look at how badly the TPH Thunder got thumped at the 98 Super Series this weekend...that's another Tier I program in the Southeast. What's the point?) A very wealthy individual - I'm told a billionaire - sees to it that the 1998 Everblades AAA are strong. The 2000 Lightning just received a boost when a family involved in the LA Selects moved to Tampa, I think I was told to coach and run hockey schools in Florida.

Yes, you are right. Lawton's kid played on Brian Bradley's AAA '96 Lightning team. As those kids get older they have less and less success. They just don't have a pool feeding the team.

Some people see Tier I and want it. Some people see Tier I and want to puke.

OT, You seem to be the last one to understand that the numbers don't add up.

The talked about variables can't possibly add up to the result.

Sorno must have looked, scratched his head like me, and understood.

Would the 98 Anoka Tornadoes not get waxed by any Florida tier 1 team? Look back at the 3 Minnesota associations that add up to Florida's totals. This will help to understand that something is not quite right.

Some also want to puke with their winter associations

What's the price for Hockey down there?

[sorno82]

Actually Bo, the numbers MN numbers and FLA numbers is apples and oranges. Chances are, if you do not show promise early in FLA, your career is over before you get a chance to start. In MN, the numbers are all comers. You get the whole bell curve in MN, while in FLA it is truncated to the top X percent.

[MrBoDangles]

Actually Bo, the numbers MN numbers and FLA numbers is apples and oranges. Chances are, if you do not show promise early in FLA, your career is over before you get a chance to start. In MN, the numbers are all comers. You get the whole bell curve in MN, while in FLA it is truncated to the top X percent.

Sorno.......... THEY START OUT WITH A VERY LOW NUMBER OF MITES Their retention is better than ours!!!!!!! So what does that mean when when you compare three good MN associations that have the same number as all of Florida........ and you find these results?

Florida has 3 tier 1 teams, and multiple tier 2 teams.

And here's the mule kick to the head........... THE THREE MINNESOTA ASSOCIATIONS STARTED OUT WITH WAY MORE MITES

[ilike2score]

Now I have heard it all....I believe you guys are saying Florida Hockey is Better than Minnesota Hockey. This is not my words...just how I am interpreting your ridiculous posts

[MrBoDangles]

Now I have heard it all....I believe you guys are saying Florida Hockey is Better than Minnesota Hockey. This is not my words...just how I am interpreting your ridiculous posts

Is this the same guy that came up with the "favorite poster" topic? OTC was your man, right?


HMMMMM!!!!?????

[O-townClown]

Would the 98 Anoka Tornadoes not get waxed by any Florida tier 1 team? Look back at the 3 Minnesota associations that add up to Florida's totals. This will help to understand that something is not quite right.

Some also want to puke with their winter associations

What's the price for Hockey down there?

Anoka's Pee Wee team this year will most likely have several 97s. I'm not sure if Anoka has a Top 20, Top 10, Top 5, or the best team in Minnesota this year. Comparisons are difficult. Three years ago the Florida Everblades 92s played in the Edina tournament over Christmas and went 2-2 against regular Bantam teams.

1998 is an odd year. The Everblades are nationally competitive, but as has been mentioned, they have players that aren't from Florida to get them to that level. Two kids were on the Wisconsin Fire last year? I think I have that right. Also, they have flown kids from Pittsburgh and Dallas to tournaments. Florida kids sit so they can play.

The 98 Panther Alliance team is 2-9 so far, with some real ugly results. They've lost 11-0 and 13-1 to the Everblades, and 9-0 and 8-0 to the Dallas Stars. Anoka would beat them, and so might Albert Lea and Alexandria. (Okay, that's a stretch.)

Our state has had one Florida-raised player drafted in the NHL, Andrew Yogan this year. And he left home for the OHL by about age 15. It is hard to think anyone would envy our developmental model. I think in time there will be more, but not because Florida has anything figured out. There are some USHL kids and a slew in Prep Schools. Some will probably be standouts at older ages.

Regarding Anoka, I'd take our state's top 98 Tier II team (the Scorpions) over them. They are a viable candidate to win a National Championship. (Class 3A if I'm not mistaken, now that the format has changed.) The team was formed in a similar manner to Tier I, pushing the envelope on several of our rules.

You may want to puke when you think about your local association, but that's a problem with your local association. Not with how Minnesota does things. We face the same challenge here. If an association is weak, should the state get involved? It's really their job to create an environment where each association has an opportunity to become a strong one, or so we feel. If they can't....

Cost for hockey: Of course, it varies. We have a very low cost in our program. $1,500 for Mites, $2,000 for Squirts, and about $2,200-2,500 for Pee Wees and older. Some add-ons, like jerseys an the possibility of a fourth tournament. I can find several where Mites are $2,500. Of course, that excludes travel. (Jr. Panthers went out of state three times last year, all involving flights.) At older ages, the Jr. B teams in our state run about $7,500 for the season. $3,000-3,500 for some programs at the PW/Bantam ages.

In-house costs usually are about $400 for a 10-12 week season, but some programs are less.

[O-townClown]

Florida has 3 tier 1 teams, and multiple tier 2 teams.

There are very few ages where you'll find three Tier I teams, and if you do there are one or two that are real weak.

Every team gets registered as Tier II, just like all your association teams. (Right, I was told they are all Tier II and not Rec or Tournament?)

Tier I is a designation, not necessarily a level of play. Jancze once said it best...AAA means three good lines, AA means two, and A means one. Our state's best 99 is not playing Tier I.

Let me put it this way: Last year Edina fielded a Pee Wee A team (champs) and two B1 teams (highly ranked all year). Virtually every kid I saw on an Edina B2 team would be a Pee Wee AA player in Florida, and the best would be stars down here.

Pee Wee A hockey is basically house league level with a few decent players that stayed with their program rather than join a AA team possibly 100 miles from home.

[MrBoDangles]

Minnesota association Hockey is not great for everyone either. My comment was that some want to puke up here too. I'm not to that point, but things could be better.

Thanks for the discussion...... Always looking for the best route for my kids and the info on here has helped me find the answers.

[BadgerBob82]

Mr Bo: I imagine MN could provide fairly competitive Teir 1 teams within a 60 mile radius of Wayzata, Forest Lake and Anoka. Also, ever think the people playing hockey in FLA are "hockey people" transplanted or maybe working there? Like maybe kids of Lightning players might have pretty good hockey genes? So take two former players that stayed there and they can be the coach, have maybe 3-5 current player's kids, a couple CEO's with hockey backgrounds and hey, you just might have something?

I would like you to provide your opinion as to what the FLA "development model" could possibly included that MN doesn't? Maybe it's drive your A$$ off to get the nearest rink for practice? Or fly your little kids around the US to play games? Those factors would weed out your casual players alright!

You are the ultimate in the "grass is greener..." Though I've heard there are some other MN players leaving to go to FLA? I've written down the names to check the NHL draft in 2016.

[MrBoDangles]

Mr Bo: I imagine MN could provide fairly competitive Teir 1 teams within a 60 mile radius of Wayzata, Forest Lake and Anoka. Also, ever think the people playing hockey in FLA are "hockey people" transplanted or maybe working there? Like maybe kids of Lightning players might have pretty good hockey genes? So take two former players that stayed there and they can be the coach, have maybe 3-5 current player's kids, a couple CEO's with hockey backgrounds and hey, you just might have something?

I would like you to provide your opinion as to what the FLA "development model" could possibly included that MN doesn't? Maybe it's drive your A$$ off to get the nearest rink for practice? Or fly your little kids around the US to play games? Those factors would weed out your casual players alright!

You are the ultimate in the "grass is greener..." Though I've heard there are some other MN players leaving to go to FLA? I've written down the names to check the NHL draft in 2016.

The people that play in Florida specialize in the sport more because they have to to play. In Minnesota a majority of the kids play other sports so the the focus is only there for a few months. Did you notice the price of mites compared to squirts? It's pretty obvious the training of mites is a little more intense down there. With anything, if you train at it, you get good at it. They have better and more training than our mostly parent coached players.

60 mile radius? I would hope! 60 miles covers most of the metro area, bud...... Did you read the last couple pages before commenting.

Having to go to another state to play tier 1 is what doesn't make sense.

Yes, please watch the draft in the future...... better yet look at the current drafts and watch next year. Have you heard of California?

Besides Edina and maybe a couple others, Florida is putting out a better product player for player. How is Edina better? Because it's a rat race to do more camps, clinics, summer AAA, etc than the next person to make a higher team. (TRAINING)

Keep your head in the sand.

[BadgerBob82]

Mr. Bo: Maybe you didn't get the gist of my post. You somehow picked Wayzata, Anoka and Forest Lake saying they couldn't compete in FLA. FLA rules state a 60 mile radius, so that is why I picked that number. MN Hockey is doing it right. If you want Tier 1 hockey, it's a short drive bud.

I know a family that moved to FLA and promptly asked for a transfer back because the hockey in particular was so horribly bad. (The crime, weather and traffic were too) So maybe FLA has a couple good programs in the major cities. It's a number's game, have 10 million people in an area and you might be able to put together 20 kids per age group. How you could possibly think that is a good model for MN is foolish.

Talk to the people from IL and MI. They envy MN as they only have AAA hockey and it is a rat race year to year figuring which mouse trap is better.

So, keep up the fight for whatever it is you want. Thankfully, the people you think have their head in the sand actually know what works and what doesn't. You will probably have better vision on it when you are 20 years older and watching your grandkids.

[MrBoDangles]

Mr. Bo: Maybe you didn't get the gist of my post. You somehow picked Wayzata, Anoka and Forest Lake saying they couldn't compete in FLA. FLA rules state a 60 mile radius, so that is why I picked that number. MN Hockey is doing it right. If you want Tier 1 hockey, it's a short drive bud.

I know a family that moved to FLA and promptly asked for a transfer back because the hockey in particular was so horribly bad. (The crime, weather and traffic were too) So maybe FLA has a couple good programs in the major cities. It's a number's game, have 10 million people in an area and you might be able to put together 20 kids per age group. How you could possibly think that is a good model for MN is foolish.

Talk to the people from IL and MI. They envy MN as they only have AAA hockey and it is a rat race year to year figuring which mouse trap is better.

So, keep up the fight for whatever it is you want. Thankfully, the people you think have their head in the sand actually know what works and what doesn't. You will probably have better vision on it when you are 20 years older and watching your grandkids.

Grandpa Hockey, Those three associations have the same number of players as all of Florida....... You're talking about gathering from ten times the Florida's numbers to compete? THE SAME NUMBER OF PLAYERS, PLAYERS, PLAYERS....... Give the nurse a swat on the butt for me.

[O-townClown]

I know a family that moved to FLA and promptly asked for a transfer back because the hockey in particular was so horribly bad.

I'm not surprised! By Minnesota standards it is horrible.

My attitude:

We're in Florida. Our kids can play hockey! Doesn't really make sense to complain.

[MrBoDangles]

I know a family that moved to FLA and promptly asked for a transfer back because the hockey in particular was so horribly bad.

I'm not surprised! By Minnesota standards it is horrible.

My attitude:

We're in Florida. Our kids can play hockey! Doesn't really make sense to complain.

To start, Badgers comment was fictional.

Florida hockey is SO horrible because........
The talent is horrible?
The training is horrible?
The parents are horrible? Or is it JUST THAT the numbers are low and there are not the same number of rinks down there? You might pay a little more, but the training is a lot more.

Does your kid play tier 1 or tier 2? If everything you say is honest you would not have your kid try for higher than tier 2

Minnesota numbers would not dwindle with a few AAA teams...........

[BadgerBob82]

Mr Bo: I can't figure you out. You are making a claim that FLA hockey provides so much more "training" than MN. Can you help me understand what training FLA provides that isn't available here? With the AAA year-round options, Accel MN, Total Hockey, Velocity, etc I don't know what your meaning of training could possibly be? If your local association doesn't meet your expectations, then move to one that does. You are proclaiming FLA hockey as a good model, yet I am not sure you've said what is good about it?

I've read a few of your old posts, you seem fixated on the FIRE? What is your affliation with the FIRE?

[O-townClown]

To start, Badgers comment was fictional.

Florida hockey is SO horrible because........
The talent is horrible?
The training is horrible?
The parents are horrible? Or is it JUST THAT the numbers are low and there are not the same number of rinks down there? You might pay a little more, but the training is a lot more.

Does your kid play tier 1 or tier 2? If everything you say is honest you would not have your kid try for higher than tier 2

Minnesota numbers would not dwindle with a few AAA teams...........

"Training is a lot more"? How do you figure? It's like college...you get what you want.

Yes, the talent here is horrible. A decent player is usually a star here and teams are filled with lots of filler. There is the irrestistable urge to put the good players together on the same team so "these" kids don't have to play with "those" kids.

My son plays on a Rec team in a Tier II program. As mentioned, almost all of our clubs are Tier II clubs. There is some confusion as to whether USA Hockey will do away with Tier I/II designations for Pee Wees now that they have done away with Nationals. It is possible he won't play on a team registered as something other than Rec until Bantams.

No, my son will not be playing for the Tier I Everblades or Lightning Alliance. First off, I'm not looking to drop $7,500-10,000 on youth hockey. Second of all, the little Tier I we have tears apart the community-based model that would work best. (Granted, "community" is a pretty loose definition when you are drawing a radius of 60-miles around each rink!)

What I see anecdotally is that most players develop much better playing close to home. Sure, there is an occasional Austin Cangelosi, but there are many more kids that "rush to be average" by getting on a super-team. Call it Tier I or AAA or whatever. Once these teams have formed, as evidenced by Tucker's Lightning 2000, they don't have anyone to play for competitive games so they have to leave the state if they want a test. (His AAA level Squirt team is beating Pee Wee A teams by about 10-1.)

I'm a big proponent of summer hockey. The nice part is that if you feel your association/club isn't providing some of what is needed it is fairly easy to remedy that. Note, this is not something in-season Tier I does...by definition there are very few kids that can get on these teams. Kids here, if they are strong players, regularly have chances to go on two or three or even more out-of-state trips in the Spring/Summer. For our familiy, it was a chance to see our son on a team with all strong players and a measuring stick to see how his skill progression compared to others. Minnesota is a dream in that off-season hockey does not require leaving the area. Must be nice.

A much bigger problem here is AA hockey. We have a hard time sustaining competitive AA leagues. This is where the Tier I Everblades usually find their players. Imagine your program can't field a AA team...your son - no matter how good - is an A player. "Your son is so GOOD! He needs to play at a higher level! He's not an A player. He's a AAA player!" Please leave your check with our Manager.

Tier I actually makes it harder to get traction on AA, where in Detroit it probably regulates to keep a very competitive playing field. (In Minnesota the equivalent are the so-called Mega associations like Edina, Wayzata, and Eden Prairie that are just too deep for most of the rest.)

USA Hockey is dead against the whole Tier I monster. Look at the recent decision to do away with Pee Wee Nationals. Look at how all Mite and Squirt teams are Rec. Look at the HPC, proposed as a way to rein in "AAA" hockey with sensible game limits.

And no, they aren't trying to "hold kids back" like you think.

[MrBoDangles]

To start, Badgers comment was fictional.

Florida hockey is SO horrible because........
The talent is horrible?
The training is horrible?
The parents are horrible? Or is it JUST THAT the numbers are low and there are not the same number of rinks down there? You might pay a little more, but the training is a lot more.

Does your kid play tier 1 or tier 2? If everything you say is honest you would not have your kid try for higher than tier 2

Minnesota numbers would not dwindle with a few AAA teams...........

"Training is a lot more"? How do you figure? It's like college...you get what you want.

Yes, the talent here is horrible. A decent player is usually a star here and teams are filled with lots of filler. There is the irrestistable urge to put the good players together on the same team so "these" kids don't have to play with "those" kids.

My son plays on a Rec team in a Tier II program. As mentioned, almost all of our clubs are Tier II clubs. There is some confusion as to whether USA Hockey will do away with Tier I/II designations for Pee Wees now that they have done away with Nationals. It is possible he won't play on a team registered as something other than Rec until Bantams.

No, my son will not be playing for the Tier I Everblades or Lightning Alliance. First off, I'm not looking to drop $7,500-10,000 on youth hockey. Second of all, the little Tier I we have tears apart the community-based model that would work best. (Granted, "community" is a pretty loose definition when you are drawing a radius of 60-miles around each rink!)

What I see anecdotally is that most players develop much better playing close to home. Sure, there is an occasional Austin Cangelosi, but there are many more kids that "rush to be average" by getting on a super-team. Call it Tier I or AAA or whatever. Once these teams have formed, as evidenced by Tucker's Lightning 2000, they don't have anyone to play for competitive games so they have to leave the state if they want a test. (His AAA level Squirt team is beating Pee Wee A teams by about 10-1.)

I'm a big proponent of summer hockey. The nice part is that if you feel your association/club isn't providing some of what is needed it is fairly easy to remedy that. Note, this is not something in-season Tier I does...by definition there are very few kids that can get on these teams. Kids here, if they are strong players, regularly have chances to go on two or three or even more out-of-state trips in the Spring/Summer. For our familiy, it was a chance to see our son on a team with all strong players and a measuring stick to see how his skill progression compared to others. Minnesota is a dream in that off-season hockey does not require leaving the area. Must be nice.

A much bigger problem here is AA hockey. We have a hard time sustaining competitive AA leagues. This is where the Tier I Everblades usually find their players. Imagine your program can't field a AA team...your son - no matter how good - is an A player. "Your son is so GOOD! He needs to play at a higher level! He's not an A player. He's a AAA player!" Please leave your check with our Manager.

Tier I actually makes it harder to get traction on AA, where in Detroit it probably regulates to keep a very competitive playing field. (In Minnesota the equivalent are the so-called Mega associations like Edina, Wayzata, and Eden Prairie that are just too deep for most of the rest.)

USA Hockey is dead against the whole Tier I monster. Look at the recent decision to do away with Pee Wee Nationals. Look at how all Mite and Squirt teams are Rec. Look at the HPC, proposed as a way to rein in "AAA" hockey with sensible game limits.

And no, they aren't trying to "hold kids back" like you think.

Again, I still will not buy it when comparing apples to apples. I know for a fact that Anoka, Wayzata, and Forest Lake could not come close to forming 2-3 tier 1 teams and a bunch of tier 2's with the same numbers as all of Florida. Even if the three flew in a few ringers it wouldn't be enough. If I added up kids from small out of the loop associations it would be even farther from happening.

Reading back through a couple of these topics has really shown me how you bounce around on your story.......

[MrBoDangles]

Mr Bo: I can't figure you out. You are making a claim that FLA hockey provides so much more "training" than MN. Can you help me understand what training FLA provides that isn't available here? With the AAA year-round options, Accel MN, Total Hockey, Velocity, etc I don't know what your meaning of training could possibly be? If your local association doesn't meet your expectations, then move to one that does. You are proclaiming FLA hockey as a good model, yet I am not sure you've said what is good about it?

I've read a few of your old posts, you seem fixated on the FIRE? What is your affliation with the FIRE?

Do most AAA summer programs have better training than average and below community winter associations? Should we have to wait until summer for our kids to get good training?

We know people that love the Fire program and experience. They are able to live where they want without having to live in hockey suburbia....... 4,500 square foot home with acreage on a lake beats a 1,200 square foot hut in Edina for the same price.

[Pudda_Puck_In_Her_Ear]

did we ever figure out if Fire costs more than association hockey

[MrBoDangles]

did we ever figure out if Fire costs more than association hockey

Association 1,200-2600
Fire 2,500

[O-townClown]

Again, I still will not buy it when comparing apples to apples. I know for a fact that Anoka, Wayzata, and Forest Lake could not come close to forming 2-3 tier 1 teams and a bunch of tier 2's with the same numbers as all of Florida. Even if the three flew in a few ringers it wouldn't be enough. If I added up kids from small out of the loop associations it would be even farther from happening.

Reading back through a couple of these topics has really shown me how you bounce around on your story.......

I have not bounced around one bit. How many Tier II teams are their in Anoka, Wayzata, and Forest Lake at the Pee Wee level? It must be 15.

You could easily form two Tier I teams that will finish with a national ranking of about 75, just like the Panthers Alliance will at Pee Wee 98. That's well above the rank for the Everblades 99, I'll bet.

I don't think you understand about the Tier I landscape. It is like you assume all Tier I teams are better than all Tier II teams.

Let me know where you feel I've bounced around and I'll clarify for you. Florida does a pretty good job despite extremely low participation. The paradox is that a kid like my son can play a lot of hockey because there is not much competition for ice time. Rinks are open year 'round, so it is easy to play through the summer.

If it bothers you to have a good player on a weak team, you'd be miserable here if your son played in half of our programs. If he were in the other half you'd be miserable because the competition for most games is really weak. (I'm driving 2 1/2 hours to Jacksonville and getting a hotel room for two games that will probably be 9-2 this weekend.)

If you exercise your choice to not be in either half you will easily spend $7,500-10,000 this year for hockey because the team needs to play out of state. And your kid will be labeled an ice whore because he's always at skate n' shoots and clinics because his team doesn't practice during the week.

Knock yourself out.

[O-townClown]

did we ever figure out if Fire costs more than association hockey

Association 1,200-2600
Fire 2,500

Main cost of youth travel hockey is travel. Isn't the total tally for some Fire teams more like $7,500? I seem to remember seeing them entered in events that required a flight. I'll ask some of my friends.