AA teams that opt up

[curtiscurve]

I was wondering if someone can list all the teams that opt up to AA. Also, what teams do people think need to opt up.

I know that the following teams opt up...
Cloquet
Bemidji
Duluth East
Grand Rapids
BSM
Roseau

Teams that should man up....
St. Thomas
Breck
Hermantown
Duluth Central/Denfeld
Warroad
Rochester Lourdes (Give 1AA teams a little more competition)

[muckandgrind]

Teams that should man up....
St. Thomas
Breck
Hermantown
Duluth Central/Denfeld
Warroad
Rochester Lourdes (Give 1AA teams a little more competition)

I'd include Totino-Grace and Blake as well.

[OnFrozenPond]

I was wondering if someone can list all the teams that opt up to AA. Also, what teams do people think need to opt up.

I know that the following teams opt up...
Cloquet
Bemidji
Duluth East
Grand Rapids
BSM
Roseau

Teams that should man up....
St. Thomas
Breck
Hermantown
Duluth Central/Denfeld
Warroad
Rochester Lourdes (Give 1AA teams a little more competition)

They should limit the number of AA games for schools that choose against opting up. If you want to play A come tournament time, you can't play a bunch of AA games during the season and then walk through sections to state every year.

[HShockeywatcher]

AHA also opts up. Does Moorhead?

1. The BIGGEST issue is about length of time needed to opt up. I believe it is 4 years. Remember the days when Laurence McKenzie played basketball at Patrick Henry? 4 AAAA state titles in a row for now AAA school Minneapolis Patrick Henry. They opted up because they were good and going to stay that way for a while. Now are back down. It is rare outside of hockey, mostly likely because dominance is difficult to be known it will be for that period of time.

2. This is not a tier system. We had that, it didn't work and now we have a Class System. Allowing teams to opt up ruins to class system and brings it back to a semi-tier system. Imagine having two great tournaments year in and year out. Now we have one great one and one many disrespect. Anyone think that respect for the Class A tournament would go up with all the talented teams playing in the AA tournament?

MN, as well as the rest of the country in both high school and college, have classes. Obviously my opinion, and most of it won't change ever, but it seems silly that when a team like Holy Angels could win the Schwan Cup then go win the Class A tournament there'd be any disrespect given to them. The disrespect, as I see it, comes from teams opting up, not teams not opting up.

I was wondering if someone can list all the teams that opt up to AA. Also, what teams do people think need to opt up.

I know that the following teams opt up...
Cloquet
Bemidji
Duluth East
Grand Rapids
BSM
Roseau

Teams that should man up....
St. Thomas
Breck
Hermantown
Duluth Central/Denfeld
Warroad
Rochester Lourdes (Give 1AA teams a little more competition)

They should limit the number of AA games for schools that choose against opting up. If you want to play A come tournament time, you can't play a bunch of AA games during the season and then walk through sections to state every year.

There are zero teams listed above that do what you just described.

[PuckU126]

I was wondering if someone can list all the teams that opt up to AA. Also, what teams do people think need to opt up.

I know that the following teams opt up...
Cloquet
Bemidji
Duluth East
Grand Rapids
BSM
Roseau

Add Hill Murray to your list.

[muckandgrind]

I don't like using student enrollment has the measure for which class a team should play in. There are many "large" schools that play AA and are WAY out of their league. Irondale is an AA school, but should, in all respects, be a A school.

They should look at the size of the feeder programs instead and determine what class the high school team is, and in the case of private schools, make them automatically AA mainly because they have a built-in advantage over the public schools.

[Master Recruiter]

every private school should HAVE TO opt up. end of story

[MNHockeyFan]

every private school should HAVE TO opt up. end of story

Teams that HAVE TO opt up are not OPTING!

I agree with HShockeywatcher - if you're going to have a class system do not allow ANY team to opt up. This would result in two great tournaments. Allowing teams to opt up just dilutes the talent level in Class A.

[HockeyMN1]

Dear Private A Schools in MN
Grow a pair.
Cordially,
HockeyMN1

[hockeydad]

I believe I read somewhere recently that they were talking about changing the mandatory period for an opt-up from four years to two.

[Zamman]

As a private school supporter and alum, I feel all privates should opt up.
If you do not, your credibility is gone. Mind you this is not the players choice, so I am not knocking them.
Oh AHA opted up in 1998.

[TTpuckster]

every private school should HAVE TO opt up. end of story

Teams that HAVE TO opt up are not OPTING!

I agree with HShockeywatcher - if you're going to have a class system do not allow ANY team to opt up. This would result in two great tournaments. Allowing teams to opt up just dilutes the talent level in Class A.

I respectively disagree.

I still like seeing the matchups at the state tournament such as Roseau vrs Edina, or, as will happen this year Bemidji vrs Hill Murray, etc.

So I believe we need to have the option as long as we have a 2 class system.

The best option is to just go back to a 1 Class tournament, period!!!

[hockeyfan893]

The tricky thing here is the subjectivity involved in determining which private schools should opt up and which shouldn't. Teams like Blake would be tough to place. Sure, they're competing this year. But most other years they aren't as competitive as they are right now. Would this involve a re-assessment every year to determine which school is of the right caliber?

[HShockeywatcher]

The tricky thing here is the subjectivity involved in determining which private schools should opt up and which shouldn't. Teams like Blake would be tough to place. Sure, they're competing this year. But most other years they aren't as competitive as they are right now. Would this involve a re-assessment every year to determine which school is of the right caliber?

The way some (much bigger) states do it is that the private schools have their own league. Most of the ones allowed in the public school division are made to play in the top division. That being said, these are generally (from my limited knowledge) states with many more divisions than MN.

Another thing I will also admit is that certain schools being AA would attract different clientele. But does that mean that Meadow Creek should have to be AA? Really?


The thing that always blows my mind is that this is only an issue for hockey. Cretin is in the top class in every sport. But aside from them, I've never heard anything about any city school playing AAAA basketball or AAAAA football or anything like that. I believe Marshall plays AA basketball and football. The public schools that opt up in hockey don't opt up in many other sports, if any.

Sure, "hockey's different" I've heard that before. With that argument, wouldn't the public schools have the advantage, with kids generally playing in the same system and with the same teammates all the way up from an early age? While the private schools get kids from different organizations who haven't been playing together for years. What I say in EP I'm betting was a direct result of those boys playing together for more years than they could at any private school.

[power92]

No disrespect to the schools, but would it really be beneficial for teams like SPA, Minnehaha, and even Providence to play AA? Don't automatically lump all privates together, most care about academics more than athletics. Minnehaha barely has a JV team.

[dirtracing17]

duluth marshall should also man up

[HockeyMN1]

No disrespect to the schools, but would it really be beneficial for teams like SPA, Minnehaha, and even Providence to play AA? Don't automatically lump all privates together, most care about academics more than athletics. Minnehaha barely has a JV team.

Fair enough...
Dear St. Thomas, Breck, Blake, Marshall, Lourdes, Totino-Grace, St. Cloud Cathedral, Holy Family, and yes Providence Academy,
Grow a pair.

[wblhcky24]

Im not so sure about hermantown

[karl(east)]

I suppose someone needs to step in and be the defender of the status quo.

What does the current system do right?
-It creates a separation between large and small schools that is, for the most part, good for competitive balance in the sport, and provides us with two pretty good state tournaments. It's not perfect in that regard, but it may be the best we can do.
-It allows teams that want to play in the "bigger" tournament to do so. Some might argue that if we didn't allow opt-ups, there wouldn't be a "bigger" tournament. In an ideal world that might be true, and it also might've worked if they'd done that back when they started two-class play. But now, it would create an uproar, and now that the A tournament has the reputation of not being quite as good, many fans would be up in arms, and there's no guarantee that the fans of programs forced down would pay as much attention.
-It preserves a lot of old rivalries, or allows teams to move around to preserve them if they so choose.
-It preserves geographic integrity. North-south battles are a huge part of the tradition of the sport. If there were no opt-ups, the AA north would consist of Moorhead, Brainerd, and maybe Duluth East. Ditto for the great public-private rivalries at AA State--only Cretin would qualify.

Who does it hurt?
-Big co-ops made up of several small teams that have to scrape together to field a program, but end up in AA. I agree with this critique, and wish some exception could be made.
-Big schools with weak hockey programs who might benefit under a tier system. I don't buy this one. If you have a big school, you have untapped potential. Get to work and put together a better program. It's what the current AA powers did. If demographics aren't on the program's side for that, it's unfortunate, but probably beyond the purview of the MSHSL.
-Champions/dominant teams in Class A, who then get criticized on message boards for not being the "real" champion. Please. If you're truly happy with where you are, you shouldn't have any reason to complain. Ignore the haters and enjoy your success.
-Public Class A schools that have to "compete unfairly" against privates. There are reasons for challenging this perception, though I don't want to spend the next two decades discussing this, so I won't get into that.

[nickmon3]

duluth marshall should also man up

I dont agree. They cant even win 7a, how do you think they would complete in 7AA or 5AA?

[dirtracing17]

duluth marshall should also man up

I dont agree. They cant even win 7a, how do you think they would complete in 7AA or 5AA?

they took virginia to overtime last year in the semi finals, when there good, there good, third and second at state a couple years ago, best recent resume at state in the recent years

[warriors41]

I would agree that Breck, STA, and Warroad should strongly consider moving up to AA. The other school not so much. These three teams have not just had repeated success in class A, but have had several championship teams. Being competitive is not the same as being champion. Why should you move up to AA if you haven't been champion in class A or it happens rarely?

I also don't believe that privates should have to opt up to AA or play in their own tournament. It really helps to strengthen the quality of play in class A. Also, there are a lot of almost rivalries that have formed between A public schools and A private schools come tournament time I think. For instance, the last two years Warroad and Breck have met in the A tournament and it's been a great atmosphere.

[nota612er]

Amateur Association numbers should have zero bearing on the competitive level for the local high school team. Many youth associations feed multiple public high schools and also lose players to the privates. Further, amateur associations are/should be about sustaining themselves for the good of the community and their members, not to build the local high school program....pipe dream I know. A large population base without a solid youth program is an indictment of a poor performing youth association (cost? political dysfunction?) and the focus should be on fixing that if the HS hockey team wants to compete vs. penalizing a small population base that has created a successful youth association. I’m with a few others on here that don’t have a real problem with the competitive advantage held by the small privates; I think the two class system works pretty well. Last time I checked, there are many competitive advantages/disadvantages in the real world. I still don’t get why it works for every other sport under MSHSL guidelines to use multiple classes, but simply because hockey “used to be one class” there is such angst over small schools getting a spot at the table. If you don’t like the Class A bracket, don’t watch it. Trust me, the small schools realize there is a distinct competitive difference between the two classes, but still see the Class A tournament as the chance to win a state championship against similar sized programs. Do the multiple classes in football and basketball, etc. not celebrate separate state championships and recognize them as such? Watch the kids being announced before the start of the games at the single A tournament games….do they not look nervous and excited to be experiencing a potential one in a lifetime event?

All my respect to the opt-up and small AA programs, but I think Hermantown is the poster child for single A hockey. Approximately 25 years ago Hermantown didn’t even have its own rink! There was no history of success and there were very few winning (+.500) seasons. Instead, the ability to align to an appropriate, competitive environment and a committed community/youth association created some small successes by the mid to late 90’s in single A. Success breeds success and since then, the HS team has consistently competed (certainly not dominated) in Class A but the youth teams, who compete against all associations regardless of size, are generally pretty average. IMO, the Hermantown model is what we should be encouraging, not discouraging. If a school/community decides to opt-up because of tradition or “because that is real hockey”…more power to you!

FYI - I’m not 100% positive, but I thought both Duluth East and Duluth Denfeld will be large enough to be considered “have to be” AA schools next year with the realignment of Duluth schools.

[HShockeywatcher]

I think it's funny the original question referenced "private school powerhouses" when the only "powerhouses" that have been that for a considerable amount of time either have opted up or are public schools. All of the private schools that are have been dominant at one time either used to be and aren't now or weren't in the past and are now. Which suggests things being cyclical and requiring them to opt (I know, oxymoron) up would be silly.

My opinion is that the only class without 8 teams a section, or 64 teams total should be the bottom class. If teams are allowed to opt up, teams should either be able to request to opt down, or when a team goes up, the smallest team should go down. Like karl was saying, there is no reason that a team like Minneapolis should be in 6AA, let alone AA. Sure they are doing quite well record wise now (12-1-3), but their schedule is comparable to a 3A one. They could've gone 24-0 with that schedule and probably gotten the 7th seed in their section.

[Cujo]

At what point enrollment wise do you have to move up?