When is a Hockey game a Dirty one?

[Skip_per]

Well, I had to ask the question.
First off I must say that I think that we in this country have become soft and wanting things to be the easier softer way and or just plain convenient.

So now you know where I come from. If you want it you have to work hard for it. After the game the other night and all of the scuttlebut about Brainerd, Coaching and players. I did a little research.
I had some inspiration of course.

Here is some of what I found:
The game on December 17th 2010 had Eden Prairie against Grand Rapids there was a total of 61 minutes of penalties with 16 dished out?
Was this a dirty game or a good tough physical one? There were no comments to indicate this being a bad one.

Here is another one, with the most penalized kid in the state from Roseau, there were 10 penalties 5 on each team with at total of 30 minutes of penalties. This was on December 30th between Roseau and Alexandria. I did not see any comments about this either.

Those are just a couple of the games out there, there are others.

Not sure what to think. It seems that there are alot of tough games out there. and Brainerd getting a bad rap?

I think that people dost protest tooo much.
If you are going to play the game prepare for it. It is a physical game.

[pipersniper12]

It is a physical game.

It's supposed to be physical. Brainerd must not of got the memo, or should I say, they got the wrong one. There is a big difference between clean physical play and dirty/cheap play.

[elliott70]

Watch video of the Brainerd coach - he played dirty, tough , sure, but dirty and times stupid...

[east hockey]

Watch video of the Brainerd coach - he played dirty, tough , sure, but dirty and times stupid...

Video? Like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgr6p8L4emY

Lee

[eastside hockey]

There are plenty of people out there who are opposed to the physical game of hockey when it comes to the big hits. Hits IMHO are a great part of the game and are generally what can separate the victor from the loser. It saddens me to say that there probably are a few coaches out there who will quietly encourage there player to push the limits around what a clean hit should be. When my son played, he was one of the most physical players on the team and enjoyed emploring large hits. I can honestly say that less than 3 to 5 % of his hits were illegal or even called for penelties. He was no superstar on the scoreboard for most of his years playing, but was one of the larget factors for creating more room on the ice by placing timely hits on the opposing players. Every player on the team has their role and capabilities.
I personally love to see big time physical games. Recently USA hockey is talking about not allowing Pee Wee level players check. This is a shame! We should spend more time focusing on the proper use and way of checking.
If we as fans truelly cant stand watching a physical game where we have to complain about it so much, there is an alterative. It's called girls high school hockey!!!!! Just dont expect to meet me at the rink !

[shins]

There is a big difference between a physical hockey game or a game with a lot of penalty minutes, and a cheap game. I think it comes down to the types of penalties (and non calls) as opposed to just the number of minutes. Having watched Brainerd play for the past few years I can say that they are not getting an undeserved or bad rap for their style.... it is borderline dirty. To argue against it is to agree with your coach when he tells other coaches that his kids need to grow a pair. This is still HIGH SCHOOL hockey for crying out loud!!

[slapshot99]

Roseau's leader in PIM as far as I hav heard is not a cheap player, I believe it is travis conell? From what I hav heard he has been called for checking from behind 2 or 3 times, all of which were questionable calls. This has accounted for the majority of his minutes.
As for brained being called out so much, I have yet to make the trip to see the warriors play, but I did go to a few games last year and they did play very cheap and unclassy, and the brained coach did not seem bothered one bit by his teams play.

[The Next One]

A few games off the top of my head:
Physical: Crox, EGF, Roseau last yr, Sartell, Monti
Dirty,cheap: Northern Lakes, Tech, Rapids, LF, Cloquet last yr

The pattern has been 3 or 4 solid performances and then a PLEASE BAN ME show.

[eastside hockey]

I remember when I grew up in hockey. If a player on the team took a cheap penelty, the coach had them wear a weight vest for the entire next practice. I do believe the coach has a large influence on the type of play that is allowed to persist game after game.
Blatent checks from behind at the high school level should recieve a 1 game suspension. At this level they know better and we dont need an orange stop sign on their backs.
I do believe that there are a lot of checking from behind calls made that are border line. If a player knows hes going to be hit and turns his back into the checking player, the call should not be made. I have been to games where I have no particular interest in either of the teams, and heads are being called for from the stands when everyone who was watching could clearly see the checked player turn away from the check and recieve the hit at an angle in to the back.
A lot of the time the Ref was not even in the right position to make the call correctly, or makes the call after the fact, based apon the reaction from the stands.

[PuckU126]

Watch video of the Brainerd coach - he played dirty, tough , sure, but dirty and times stupid...

Video? Like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgr6p8L4emY

Lee

And it all started with a water bottle.

[blindref]

I remember when I grew up in hockey. If a player on the team took a cheap penelty, the coach had them wear a weight vest for the entire next practice. I do believe the coach has a large influence on the type of play that is allowed to persist game after game.
Blatent checks from behind at the high school level should recieve a 1 game suspension. At this level they know better and we dont need an orange stop sign on their backs.
I do believe that there are a lot of checking from behind calls made that are border line. If a player knows hes going to be hit and turns his back into the checking player, the call should not be made. I have been to games where I have no particular interest in either of the teams, and heads are being called for from the stands when everyone who was watching could clearly see the checked player turn away from the check antd recieve the hit at an angle in to the back.
A lot of the time the Ref was not even in the right position to make the call correctly, or makes the call after the fact, based apon the reaction from the stands
.

I disagree
Checking from behind is called tighter in college than high school.
People are more concerned about the kid sitting than the other kid

[blindref]

[quote="The Next One"]A few games off the top of my head:
Physical: Crox, EGF, Roseau last yr, Sartell, Monti
Dirty,cheap: Northern Lakes, Tech, Rapids, LF, Cloquet last yr

The pattern has been 3 or 4 solid performances and then a PLEASE BAN ME show.[/q
uote]

Tech and LG aren't cheap.

Brainerd plays like a bunch of undisciplined a## clowns.

They weren't like thay when Ty was there.

[The Next One]

A few games off the top of my head:
Physical: Crox, EGF, Roseau last yr, Sartell, Monti
Dirty,cheap: Northern Lakes, Tech, Rapids, LF, Cloquet last yr

The pattern has been 3 or 4 solid performances and then a PLEASE BAN ME show.[/q
uote]

Tech and LG aren't cheap.

Brainerd plays like a bunch of undisciplined a## clowns.

They weren't like thay when Ty was there.

I did not mean Tech and LF were cheap....BRD was cheap in those games

[curtiscurve]

Any game featuring the Brainerd Warriors falls under the CHEAP/DIRTY category.

[DmanDad1980]

As equipment has gotten better, as the game has increased in speed, the thing that I have seen more of in the last decade, is the senseless head hunting and checking from behind... too much of it, and you know it does not add to the game...

I love a physical game, that is how I played it when I was younger, but to go after the head and from behind, no time for it frankly... No need for it, and the rules should reflect the senseless action...

IMHO

[BSUBeaver]

As equipment has gotten better, as the game has increased in speed, the thing that I have seen more of in the last decade, is the senseless head hunting and checking from behind... too much of it, and you know it does not add to the game...

I love a physical game, that is how I played it when I was younger, but to go after the head and from behind, no time for it frankly... No need for it, and the rules should reflect the senseless action...

IMHO

I think you have hit the nail on the head. The equipment has gotten so much more advanced that it helps the kids feel indestructible. Look at the shoulder pads now, many of those are starting to look like football shoulder pads. With all the plastic and harder fibers that are out there now, an elbow/shoulder to the head is going to have a more adverse effect on the receiver than the disher.

[HShockeywatcher]

There are plenty of people out there who are opposed to the physical game of hockey when it comes to the big hits. Hits IMHO are a great part of the game and are generally what can separate the victor from the loser. It saddens me to say that there probably are a few coaches out there who will quietly encourage there player to push the limits around what a clean hit should be. When my son played, he was one of the most physical players on the team and enjoyed emploring large hits. I can honestly say that less than 3 to 5 % of his hits were illegal or even called for penelties. He was no superstar on the scoreboard for most of his years playing, but was one of the larget factors for creating more room on the ice by placing timely hits on the opposing players. Every player on the team has their role and capabilities.

I could've quoted a couple different people in this thread, but this seemed like a good person to quote. The trouble, which has been discussed in thread after thread, is the direct reffing/coaching seems to be going and what is allowed. Things like "finishing your check" and checking from behind are the two biggest that get me when watching the game.

I learned early that you are not allowed to check anyone without the puck, if you do it is a two minute interference call. A quick google search will tell you the same thing. You can't watch 2 minutes of HS hockey and not see multiple guys without the puck getting checked.

I've read multiple articles on what is known as "finishing your check." It's another thing that is not within the rules as written but has slowly been allowed.

I copied this from the NHL webiste, I assume it's the same for HS:
"43.1 Checking from Behind – A check from behind is a check delivered on a player who is not aware of the impending hit, therefore unable to protect or defend himself, and contact is made on the back part of the body. When a player intentionally turns his body to create contact with his back, no penalty shall be assessed."
I see this all the time when watching. It is common now. You can hit people from behind, you see people's neck's throw back, they fall down, the crowd cheers and there's no call.

As I've pointed out before, and as eastside hockey pointed out, there are people that hit incorrectly, or illegally, on purpose, whether directed or on their own. I have known people whose sole purpose of playing the game was to hit people, legally or not.

No, I did not grow up playing hockey, so my view point is very different than that of many, I know. What is dirty hockey? It's tough to say now in my opinion. If you are doing things that are illegal but helping your team and they are not getting called, why would you stop? I know most adults wouldn't. It is a very aggressive game, that can often get out of hand from poor control of the game by the refs, but dirty it usually is not.

[goldy313]

In youth a check from behind is a check from behind, a hit to the head is a hit to the head. The NCAA is going that way too. In high school, it's more to the NHL where the player being hit has some responsibility in the action; you can't turn your back and you can't lower your head in an attempt to draw a penalty.

There is a local kid who consistantly drops to knee when he's about to be checked along the boards and the crowd roars for a penalty every time he is hit in the head, yet rarely a penalty is called. He also has a tendancy to turn his back, sometimes it results in a boarding but never a check from behind. They've had to drag him off the ice a couple of times though I think that's good officiating.

Lou Nanne makes a very good point about enforcing the rules already in place instead of making new ones. The NHL has done that and cleaned the game up in just a couple of years from where it was.

[PuckU126]

In youth a check from behind is a check from behind, a hit to the head is a hit to the head. The NCAA is going that way too. In high school, it's more to the NHL where the player being hit has some responsibility in the action; you can't turn your back and you can't lower your head in an attempt to draw a penalty.

There is a local kid who consistantly drops to knee when he's about to be checked along the boards and the crowd roars for a penalty every time he is hit in the head, yet rarely a penalty is called. He also has a tendancy to turn his back, sometimes it results in a boarding but never a check from behind. They've had to drag him off the ice a couple of times though I think that's good officiating.

Lou Nanne makes a very good point about enforcing the rules already in place instead of making new ones. The NHL has done that and cleaned the game up in just a couple of years from where it was.

I agree; its just a matter of time before he gets seriously injured. I have no sympathy for players like that. They're like the professional soccer players; always crying and trying to draw penalties.

Play the bloody game!

[underthenbar01]

You can call it dirty when the majority of the penalties are committed with the stick. Too many slashing, tripping, hooking, high sticking and or cross checking penalties add up to a very cheap and dirty game

[HShockeywatcher]

In youth a check from behind is a check from behind, a hit to the head is a hit to the head. The NCAA is going that way too. In high school, it's more to the NHL where the player being hit has some responsibility in the action; you can't turn your back and you can't lower your head in an attempt to draw a penalty.

There is a local kid who consistantly drops to knee when he's about to be checked along the boards and the crowd roars for a penalty every time he is hit in the head, yet rarely a penalty is called. He also has a tendancy to turn his back, sometimes it results in a boarding but never a check from behind. They've had to drag him off the ice a couple of times though I think that's good officiating.

Lou Nanne makes a very good point about enforcing the rules already in place instead of making new ones. The NHL has done that and cleaned the game up in just a couple of years from where it was.

I agree; its just a matter of time before he gets seriously injured. I have no sympathy for players like that. They're like the professional soccer players; always crying and trying to draw penalties.

Play the bloody game!

Personally, I'd say if anything that kid should be called for penalties, not those hitting him. Putting yourself in harm's way to try to draw a penalty is idiotic.

Going with what I said, and your first two paragraphs together, I would think that a check from behind should be a check from behind and a hit to the head should be a hit to the head unless the player being hit moved his body to have that hit happen.
That is sometimes difficult to judge, which an honest ref can then use a minor vs a major.

I don't agree with the "delivered on a player who is not aware of the impending hit" part of the check from behind definition. If they are only trying to not have the above situation happen, I agree. But you are hit from behind and you were not spinning your body in anyway, the hitter should go to the box.

The amount of violence that is allowed when children have skates, pads and a stick in their hands is crazy. You'd go to jail outside of hockey for some of the crazy, illegal hits kids make and yet when on the ice some don't even get called.

[mnhockeynemn]

If they ever change to Girls Hockey Rules, it would ruin the sport completely!! Especially the rivalries games

[eastside hockey]

If they ever change to Girls Hockey Rules, it would ruin the sport completely!! Especially the rivalries games

If that ever happened, They might as well change Foodball to two hand touch or use flags. What are we coming to?

[HShockeywatcher]

If they ever change to Girls Hockey Rules, it would ruin the sport completely!! Especially the rivalries games

You are right. But that is not what anyone is saying. All I, and most on here, am saying is to call the rules as they are written, instead of letting things slide. We are in an imperfect reffing rating system, I believe, which I doubt will change anytime soon.

[Potatohead9]

If they ever change to Girls Hockey Rules, it would ruin the sport completely!! Especially the rivalries games

You are right. But that is not what anyone is saying. All I, and most on here, am saying is to call the rules as they are written, instead of letting things slide. We are in an imperfect reffing rating system, I believe, which I doubt will change anytime soon.

Excellent point. The Coach can only control his team. But it is the Ref who ultimately controls the game. There is a need for more consistancy from both the Refs and Coaches.