AA teams that opt up

[The X]

1. A couple years ago I posted in the minnesota-scores discussion boards about a one class system in all classes. Whether you truly believe that "hockey's different" or not, the reality is that not only is the MSHSL going to do things uniformly for all classes, but what happens in football will happen in all sports.

Playing devil's advocate (arguing against my overall opinion) I suggested that having one class in all sports would be best for every sport. While a state title is amazing and shows that you accomplished a lot, in sports that aren't measured quantitatively with times, the winners of the lower classes could often feel like there was more they could do. Why not compete against all in the state and see how well you can do?

Instead of winning the AA title in football over and over, maybe you make it past a couple teams with enrollments 10x yours and to farther rounds each year. The examples could go on and on, so I won't give specifics, but the best example I would give is from track. The Class A 400m champ generally is quite a ways ahead of the 2nd place finisher. I've never been in those shoes, but were it me, if there were 5 faster times in AA, I'd want to actually race those 5 guys.

2. The one realistic solution I have never heard suggested that would accomplish what many are after is a system where not every team makes the playoffs. Not sure what the percentages are, but many states have systems where only the top teams in a division make the playoffs (sounds like Iowa does from a previous post). In Texas, there are 12 football titles given out and only the top 2 teams from each district of 6-10 teams make the playoffs.

We'd have to pick the size of our tournament, probably 16 or 32 teams, 4 or 5 rounds. With 32 teams (5 rounds), in hockey that'd mean divisions (whatever they become called) of 4 or 5 teams. The last 6 or 8 games of a team's season is played against those teams, the top team (or 2) makes the playoffs. You could either seed or have certain divisions matched up. Either way, you could play whoever you want, and the best teams would end up in the tournament.

In football, this would give us a two class system though, hmmm...

Leave it as is or go back to one class. Having "powers" move to AA only wrecks the integrity of a two class system. I have a theory that the way things are happening right now, eventually AA is going to turn into AAAA basketball: ALL METRO. Now that would be an awesome tournement....

I'm confused. Your first sentence, to me, suggests either a system with opt ups or one class, then your second sentence says opt ups ruin the system.

I doubt it will turn into all metro, as 7AA, 8AA, and 1AA will all be there, but the point is the same.

When the "powers" all have the advantage of obtaining top players from the youth associations across the state it becomes a problem. Clearly when 6 of top 10 in A have that advantage the proof is right in front of people that make these decisions. Anybody can spin it whichever way for their benefit but it is what it is.

If I had an 11 year old son who was awesome at basketball and was moving to the cities, where do you think I would move? It's not near a private school. There are many public schools around the metro with everything private schools offer and more.

The only "advantage" they have is athletes being able to transfer during high school, which rarely (but sometimes) happens. Beyond that, they offer the same thing the good public school programs do; good teams, good coaches, good cities, good teachers, good schools, good communities, etc.

Also curious who the 6 you speak of are? From my rankings:
#1 St Thomas [1]
#2 Breck [2]
#3 Blake [3]
#5 Totino [4]
#7 Marshall [5]
#16 Lourdes [6]
#17 Cathedral [7]
I can't speak of where the top 4 are getting their players recently personally, but hard to imagine the families who weren't going to those schools anyway would pay the tuition when there are plenty of close public communities. #5, the top go to East, not Marshall. #5, there are 3 AA schools in the same city. #7 with Tech in AA, you and doing well this year, hard to claim that.

The four you can't speak for are the top four though (the main ones people want up). Tech is pretty good this year, not usually very good and how about Apollo? Almost always bad in comparison to their always good class A private counterpart Cathedral. There are 3 AA in Rochester, but How many of them are ranked? Lourdes is

#1 AA Hill Murray 4 #1 A St. Thomas 3 evenly played game with winning goal scored in last two minutes of regulation. This pretty much sums up this entire thread IMO.

[HShockeywatcher]

Not sure what is summed up by that. To me it says that the top teams in both classes can compete against each other, just like most years. It also shows me why a class system is so great instead of a tier system. The schools being placed in a class based solely on their size and not ability.


The issue, imo, is that to say that some teams have to move up, you should basically say the top 64 teams should be in the top class with a true tier system. While it would probably give all around better hockey for both classes, I doubt that would happen.

dontcallmeshirley,
You are right. The only thing these schools are doing is providing quality programs, facilities, coaches, etc. I'm not much of an English guy, I think the technical term may be recruiting or something similar, but it's not against any rules. Prior to 2003 (I believe) St Thomas didn't do well in hockey on a consistent basis that I can remember for a while. Alumni and the school (along with UST) decided that they needed a rink on campus and to get some really good coaches. Since, students have started to go to school there so they can be part of a good program. Hill Murray has a much bigger tradition. It is the same reason certain public school programs do well.

The same goes for public schools.
The thing, for me, that is sad is that instead of trying to fix the problem that is bringing certain programs down, there are people suggesting things to burden teams for doing well within the rules. I grew up in Minneapolis. It is sad to see what has happened with the hockey there. Why aren't we doing things to help the schools get rinks on/near campus and fuel the youth programs? It could keep kids off the streets and help programs. This is just one example.

Another is academics. Like it or not, if parents could choose between a good program with great academics and a better program with less quality academics, they would most likely choose the academics. All in all, I don't understand why there isn't more drive to fix the problem instead of blame teams for doing well in the system.

The only exception to everything you said is that I believe Hill Murray has a pretty successful track record.

[PuckU126]

STA can make the transition to AA. IMO

[dontcallmeshirley]

STA can make the transition to AA. IMO

Duly noted.

HSHockeywatcher, it is interesting that academics rarely enter the discussion, but are probably a greater factor than might be considered. It presumes a lot about the players on these teams to think that the only reason they go to schools like STA, Breck, etc. is to play hockey and win a state tournament by any means possible. However, I think it is safe to say that all privates are not created equally, and the better job one does conveying itself as an academic as well as athletic institution the more success it is likely to have in its "recruiting." Parents want the best hockey experience for their kids, but that doesn't mean they are likely to sacrifice academics as a result, especially considering that by paying for a private school they are shelling out for classroom time as well as ice time. If they have the means, and want their kids to have both, there is really no reason not to take them. Plenty of players at Blake go on to play at schools that are lauded for great hockey programs and academics. Blake Doerring from a couple of years back went to Dartmouth and Ryan Bullock is committed this year, and Nick Brunette went to Amherst. From Breck's Tourney team last year, John Russell went to Amherst, Mike Morin to Colorado College and Tyson Fulton to Union. Clearly, they are doing more than playing hockey if they are choosing schools with academic standards. So while these schools are apparently committing yearly sins against others, they are doing what is best for their own players, which should be their collective goal as private institutions.

[14hockey]

There is a couple things that bother me about the current A and AA divisions of schools. No matter whether you are a private school or co-op school in A, if you are consistently winning games. Then move up a class!! The numbers over the last decade are overwhelming and consistently bother me:

STA: 4 state tournaments with a record of 85-24-3
Breck/Blake: 7 state tournaments
Lourdes: 6 state tournaments with a record of 127-27-8
Warroad: 6 state tournaments with a record of 142-19-5
Hermantown: 4 state tournaments with a record of 97-12-3
Orono: 5 state tournaments with a record of 104-31-4
Little Falls: 5 state tournaments with a record of 120-18-2

The records falling the number of state tournaments is their records during the state tournament seasons. If youre consistently winning every season, why settle as one of the best of the worst? I do not care how much your enrollment is if you can win games at a lower level then move up and get some competition. Especially when teams like Little Falls for example pound teams into the ground and put up more then 10 goals 10 times a year. It bothers me that an AD of a school is okay with never actually being the best, only being the best of the lower 75 schools in the state.

[DubCHAGuy]

There is a couple things that bother me about the current A and AA divisions of schools. No matter whether you are a private school or co-op school in A, if you are consistently winning games. Then move up a class!! The numbers over the last decade are overwhelming and consistently bother me:

STA: 4 state tournaments with a record of 85-24-3
Breck/Blake: 7 state tournaments
Lourdes: 6 state tournaments with a record of 127-27-8
Warroad: 6 state tournaments with a record of 142-19-5
Hermantown: 4 state tournaments with a record of 97-12-3
Orono: 5 state tournaments with a record of 104-31-4
Little Falls: 5 state tournaments with a record of 120-18-2

The records falling the number of state tournaments is their records during the state tournament seasons. If youre consistently winning every season, why settle as one of the best of the worst? I do not care how much your enrollment is if you can win games at a lower level then move up and get some competition. Especially when teams like Little Falls for example pound teams into the ground and put up more then 10 goals 10 times a year. It bothers me that an AD of a school is okay with never actually being the best, only being the best of the lower 75 schools in the state.

Sounds like you are a fan of the Tier 1/2 system? If you have a decent team that year you have to play AA (Tier 1). Besides your stats are skewed. Why do you only count the years they went to state? Of course if a team makes the state tournament they are going to have a good record that year. Some of those TOTAL records for the last 10 years:

STA: 161-117-7 (.565 winning %)
Lourdes: 191-78-13 (.677)
Blake: 179-76-10 (.675)

Lourdes & Blake don't exactly play in great conferences for those records either.

[defense]

There is a couple things that bother me about the current A and AA divisions of schools. No matter whether you are a private school or co-op school in A, if you are consistently winning games. Then move up a class!! The numbers over the last decade are overwhelming and consistently bother me:

STA: 4 state tournaments with a record of 85-24-3
Breck/Blake: 7 state tournaments
Lourdes: 6 state tournaments with a record of 127-27-8
Warroad: 6 state tournaments with a record of 142-19-5
Hermantown: 4 state tournaments with a record of 97-12-3
Orono: 5 state tournaments with a record of 104-31-4
Little Falls: 5 state tournaments with a record of 120-18-2

The records falling the number of state tournaments is their records during the state tournament seasons. If youre consistently winning every season, why settle as one of the best of the worst? I do not care how much your enrollment is if you can win games at a lower level then move up and get some competition. Especially when teams like Little Falls for example pound teams into the ground and put up more then 10 goals 10 times a year. It bothers me that an AD of a school is okay with never actually being the best, only being the best of the lower 75 schools in the state.

You obviously are from White Bear Lake???? Brainerd????
You see we do not have tier 1 and tier 2 anymore. They ended that. They decided to seperate the teams playing Minnesota High School hockey into two classes according to the number of students enrolled at the school, instead of by how successfull the team has been. The idea was not to create a higher level of hockey and a lower level of hockey, it was to pair schools with more comperable enrollments together. Schools like Roseau, Hill Murray, Grand Rapids decide on their own to play in a class with more twin cities area teams, no one mandates that, it is their decision.
THe thing to complain about is not that class A has dominant teams, (so does AA, what should they do then??? Play in Shattuck's league??). THe thing to complain about is how they decide which schools are big enough to put in class AA. NO ONE likely believes that Bemidji, DuLuth East,(both opt up) even Alexandria, Fergus Falls, Deroit Lakes... belongs in class A. They are put their because the MSHSL divides the teams looking at teh whole state, when actually they should divide the teams looking at regions.

[HShockeywatcher]

14hockey,

I will agree with you that it is disturbing to see that. But what is disturbing is that your two comments contradict each other imo. What has happened is that those who have either done well, or consider themselves above the rest, have moved up. When the best are gone, there are less who are good and those who are will do well consistently. Without teams opting up, this wouldn't be a problem.

STA can make the transition to AA. IMO

Duly noted.

HSHockeywatcher, it is interesting that academics rarely enter the discussion, but are probably a greater factor than might be considered. It presumes a lot about the players on these teams to think that the only reason they go to schools like STA, Breck, etc. is to play hockey and win a state tournament by any means possible. However, I think it is safe to say that all privates are not created equally, and the better job one does conveying itself as an academic as well as athletic institution the more success it is likely to have in its "recruiting." Parents want the best hockey experience for their kids, but that doesn't mean they are likely to sacrifice academics as a result, especially considering that by paying for a private school they are shelling out for classroom time as well as ice time. If they have the means, and want their kids to have both, there is really no reason not to take them. Plenty of players at Blake go on to play at schools that are lauded for great hockey programs and academics. Blake Doerring from a couple of years back went to Dartmouth and Ryan Bullock is committed this year, and Nick Brunette went to Amherst. From Breck's Tourney team last year, John Russell went to Amherst, Mike Morin to Colorado College and Tyson Fulton to Union. Clearly, they are doing more than playing hockey if they are choosing schools with academic standards. So while these schools are apparently committing yearly sins against others, they are doing what is best for their own players, which should be their collective goal as private institutions.

You make some great points here. The same is true for Shattuck; having talked to people that have gone there they talk about how rigorous the school is. Simply put, there are plenty of students who do not/would not cut it at some of these schools.

To add to what you said and touch on what I was saying, it is interesting that "bettering" education in certain places is never a topic of discussion. Private schools are a business and need to do whatever they can to get certain people to go there. That being said, our tax dollars should be going to keeping the public schools to a standard to not have people want to leave.

Hockey is different than other sports in that you play for your city with many of the same kids year in and year out. There are plenty of kids who attend private schools growing up and would for HS anyway, but not the majority. If your organization is losing a student to a private school, I would think the response should be "what was wrong to make them move?"

[PuckU126]

STA can make the transition to AA. IMO

Duly noted.

HSHockeywatcher, it is interesting that academics rarely enter the discussion, but are probably a greater factor than might be considered. It presumes a lot about the players on these teams to think that the only reason they go to schools like STA, Breck, etc. is to play hockey and win a state tournament by any means possible. However, I think it is safe to say that all privates are not created equally, and the better job one does conveying itself as an academic as well as athletic institution the more success it is likely to have in its "recruiting." Parents want the best hockey experience for their kids, but that doesn't mean they are likely to sacrifice academics as a result, especially considering that by paying for a private school they are shelling out for classroom time as well as ice time. If they have the means, and want their kids to have both, there is really no reason not to take them. Plenty of players at Blake go on to play at schools that are lauded for great hockey programs and academics. Blake Doerring from a couple of years back went to Dartmouth and Ryan Bullock is committed this year, and Nick Brunette went to Amherst. From Breck's Tourney team last year, John Russell went to Amherst, Mike Morin to Colorado College and Tyson Fulton to Union. Clearly, they are doing more than playing hockey if they are choosing schools with academic standards. So while these schools are apparently committing yearly sins against others, they are doing what is best for their own players, which should be their collective goal as private institutions.

I thought it, and you wrote it!

[PoniesDad45]

If they would just go back to one championship trophy it would take care of this issue and "team stacking" at smaller private schools would no longer be an issue. Just put 16 teams in a one class tourney with equal numbers of brackets reserved for small schools.

Then when a small school makes the State Tourney, not only do they get the chance to play in the Tourney, if they go all the way and win it all it will actually mean much more. For you folks who didn't get a chance to watch the Tourney when it was one class you really missed out.

[dontcallmeshirley]

To add to what you said and touch on what I was saying, it is interesting that "bettering" education in certain places is never a topic of discussion. Private schools are a business and need to do whatever they can to get certain people to go there. That being said, our tax dollars should be going to keeping the public schools to a standard to not have people want to leave.

Hockey is different than other sports in that you play for your city with many of the same kids year in and year out. There are plenty of kids who attend private schools growing up and would for HS anyway, but not the majority. If your organization is losing a student to a private school, I would think the response should be "what was wrong to make them move?"

Very true, and it would be interesting if someone with way, way too much time on his hands, unfettered access to public and private information, and few scruples could put together a sort of map showing which regions kids "defect" from more often to private schools, or open enroll in different public schools, or just plain old move to new school systems. I would be surprised if too many kids on the "A" level teams from Eden Prairie, Edina, Minnetonka, and other similar suburbs left for the private school ranks. The youth programs are strong, the high school teams are historically good, and the academics are well regarded. On the other hand, Minneapolis, the city to which these suburbs are roughly attached, now has one hockey team. It is a sure thing that there are more than 20 Varsity caliber hockey players currently living in Minneapolis. Which gets to the question that you raise: at what point, and for what reasons, do they lose faith in the system? Why are the best hockey players not attending the Minneapolis schools (and St. Paul publicschools? And Richfield schools? And North Metro schools? etc.)? I doubt that the reason is hockey, so the scope of the discussion is broader than the "board." It is a good question to ask, though.