Class A Rankings 2-13-11

[ryno44]

wow your standings are so far off that it is a freaking joke, there is no way and mean NO BLEEPING WAY that South St. Paul and Totino Grace should be ahead of Hermantown, a team with 8 loses does not belong in the top five, and as for Totino Grace they too don't belong ahead of Hermantown, it may be time for you to get out of the cities and come up north to watch some real hockey, but that's typical citidiots acting as if they are superior to everyone else in the state

Didn't South St. Paul beat cloquet who beat Hermantown? Chill....

[HShockeywatcher]

On Saturday, February 19th, the top two teams in my poll are playing games; St Thomas vs Hill-Murray and Blake vs Breck. I'm polling to see who you think will win each of the games.
Just like how I have LOW ahead of 8A and SSP 2nd in 4A...when you compare a team's body of work to the whole state, you can get a different result than if you simply compare them to a smaller group.

What???

If the "smaller" level is part of the entire state......this makes little sense to me... please explaine more.

Section seedings look at head to head games and not much else. State rankings can/should consider the full body of work, common opponents, as well as how teams are playing at that time. For example Eden Prairie's 5 losses (Edina x2, Eagan, AHA, East) mean nothing to their section seeding. They will be #1 in 6AA as they ran the table (with 1 tie vs. Wayzata). In theory they could have also lost to teams like Hermantown, Elk River, and lose their last 2 this week and would still likely be the #1 seed in 6AA, where as doing so would probably drop them below Wayzata and even BSM in the "state" rankings.

HSHW, nice job again on the rankings. I would argue that Totino will still be the #2 seed in 4A. Definitely no lower than #3 with their 6-2 win over Mahto and sweep of SLP and Chisago.

I would also disagree about Breck. I would be shocked if they were at the X playing for a 3rd straight title. Their best wins are Mahto in the first game of the year and probably Providence or SP Johnson after that. Plus I have seen them in person a few times and they looked really sloppy each time.

Thank you.

I will be the first to admit I totally missed the Totino/Maht game, and you are right about that. SSP/TG is very hard to compare.

wow your standings are so far off that it is a freaking joke, there is no way and mean NO BLEEPING WAY that South St. Paul and Totino Grace should be ahead of Hermantown, a team with 8 loses does not belong in the top five, and as for Totino Grace they too don't belong ahead of Hermantown, it may be time for you to get out of the cities and come up north to watch some real hockey, but that's typical citidiots acting as if they are superior to everyone else in the state

Thanks for all of the specific examples and constructive criticism. It will help me fix what you don't like about my rankings.

The city I live in most of the people I know don't hear the word hockey more than every 4 years...as I've said many times before, I'd love to be able to travel the state and see everyone play, but I simply go by scores.

[fivehole628]

wow your standings are so far off that it is a freaking joke, there is no way and mean NO BLEEPING WAY that South St. Paul and Totino Grace should be ahead of Hermantown, a team with 8 loses does not belong in the top five, and as for Totino Grace they too don't belong ahead of Hermantown, it may be time for you to get out of the cities and come up north to watch some real hockey, but that's typical citidiots acting as if they are superior to everyone else in the state

Well the way you are acting gives me the notion that I am better than you.

[mustangs29]

SSP should be the two seed in my opinion. 5 to 1 win over SLP and 5 to 1 win over Mahto. They also basically lost by one goal to STA who needed an empty netter to win 4 to 2. By playing the #1 team the closest they should lock up the #2 spot.

[defense]

But in the section seeding, you definitely CANNOT use only section games. Not possible. You would not get an accurate rating of all teams in the section. What if Wadena played DL twice, Apollo, M-B, and Prarie Centre twice each and won all of the games against them. WHile two wins over Detroit Lakes would be great, the other 6 wins really wouldn't mean as much...now if they lost to or tied one of those teams, that would have importance. Furthermore, using only section games, there is NO WAY that WIllmar is better than Little Falls.

[HawkeyPower]

wow your standings are so far off that it is a freaking joke, there is no way and mean NO BLEEPING WAY that South St. Paul and Totino Grace should be ahead of Hermantown, a team with 8 loses does not belong in the top five, and as for Totino Grace they too don't belong ahead of Hermantown, it may be time for you to get out of the cities and come up north to watch some real hockey, but that's typical citidiots acting as if they are superior to everyone else in the state

Didn't South St. Paul beat cloquet who beat Hermantown? Chill....

Ryno 44
I'd say they have a pretty good chance at getting a 2 seed, should not be #1 seed but it could happen with 1 loss in the section.

As far as this weeks rankings, Virginia (20) beat Marshall (12) in Marshall and are still behind them. Makes me think HSHW only cares about the cities teams.

Kind of similar arguements. Using that theory didn't Marshall beat Mahtomedi who beat Virginia. Practice what you preach, Chill.
Ranking are not only based on head to head matchups.
Again to HSHW thank you for putting the time in! For most of us its a good form of entertainment.

[DubCHAGuy]

But in the section seeding, you definitely CANNOT use only section games. Not possible. You would not get an accurate rating of all teams in the section. What if Wadena played DL twice, Apollo, M-B, and Prarie Centre twice each and won all of the games against them. WHile two wins over Detroit Lakes would be great, the other 6 wins really wouldn't mean as much...now if they lost to or tied one of those teams, that would have importance. Furthermore, using only section games, there is NO WAY that WIllmar is better than Little Falls.

Sorry, should have said head to head section games. When they go in to seed the sections the coaches have a rough idea of where everyone will be based on the performance throughout the whole season. When teams are close together it is almost always decided by the head to head game they played during the season. If they split, or didn't play, it usually then goes to how those teams did against the next best team in the section.

In a section like 8A this year, they might as well put the top 5 in a hat and draw names for the seeds.

[DubCHAGuy]

SSP should be the two seed in my opinion. 5 to 1 win over SLP and 5 to 1 win over Mahto. They also basically lost by one goal to STA who needed an empty netter to win 4 to 2. By playing the #1 team the closest they should lock up the #2 spot.

That could go either way. I'd assume the CSC coaches give SSP the nod and North Suburban coaches go with Totino, leaving it up to the coaches of the Tri-metro teams. It will also be interesting to see who gets #6 and #7. Johnson beat SLP, but SLP has been playing pretty good lately. It could be a tougher first round game than any #2 seed wants to see.

[ajj7878]

Once Lourdes beats Totino Grace this week people will see how over-rated totino is and maybe start to give Lourdes the credit they deserve.

i dont get how duluth marshall can beat lourdes, lose to virginia and virginia is ranked lower than both of them

[north*hockey]

I don't get how Virginia can beat Mahtomedi and be ranked....oh wait Virginia lost 5-2 versus a Mahtomedi team that is below .500

[HShockeywatcher]

Once Lourdes beats Totino Grace this week people will see how over-rated totino is and maybe start to give Lourdes the credit they deserve.

i dont get how duluth marshall can beat lourdes, lose to virginia and virginia is ranked lower than both of them

1. The win was in OT. As I've explained before, to me, yes it's a win, but it's every close.

2. Without the section losses to Central and Virginia, Marshall would have a case for top 7. Two OT losses doesn't drop you 15 spots.

3. Virginia recently lost to International Falls. While it is just one game, it's not one they should be anywhere close to losing, let alone actually lose.

This isn't the first 5 games of the season where if you beat another team you're ranked ahead of them. You need to weigh overall schedule/recent activity. I don't know how they run their lines against lower competition, but their game results are very inconsistent. They could easily do well in section, or lose in the quarters.

But in the section seeding, you definitely CANNOT use only section games. Not possible. You would not get an accurate rating of all teams in the section. What if Wadena played DL twice, Apollo, M-B, and Prarie Centre twice each and won all of the games against them. WHile two wins over Detroit Lakes would be great, the other 6 wins really wouldn't mean as much...now if they lost to or tied one of those teams, that would have importance. Furthermore, using only section games, there is NO WAY that WIllmar is better than Little Falls.

As DubCHAGuy pointed out, we're talking about head to head section games. So, you are right about it creating a situation with many teams, 2AA has been rough the last few years in my opinion. Personally, I hold teams equally responsible for not playing each other. ie. Could Totino beat SSP? Sure. Did they? No. And SSP did better against the top team.

As for the Wilmar card, you really have to decide what you are looking to rank about a team. Personally, I look at ranking the current team that is going in, not the team that played 4 months ago. Simply put, all but 2 of Wilmar's losses came before Christmas, neither to a section opponent, and in their last 14 games, they have beaten Fergus x2, Little Falls, Alex, DL and tied Sartell. If you look at their whole season, Little Falls gets to nod, and probably top seed, but that's not what I personally am looking at.

[totalonehockey23]

After beating benilde is spring lake park a top 20 team? In let's play hockey they are ranked 20. Are they a threat to pull off anymore upsets in sections?

[RangeHockeyFan1817]

Once Lourdes beats Totino Grace this week people will see how over-rated totino is and maybe start to give Lourdes the credit they deserve.

i dont get how duluth marshall can beat lourdes, lose to virginia and virginia is ranked lower than both of them

1. The win was in OT. As I've explained before, to me, yes it's a win, but it's every close.

2. Without the section losses to Central and Virginia, Marshall would have a case for top 7. Two OT losses doesn't drop you 15 spots.

3. Virginia recently lost to International Falls. While it is just one game, it's not one they should be anywhere close to losing, let alone actually lose.

This isn't the first 5 games of the season where if you beat another team you're ranked ahead of them. You need to weigh overall schedule/recent activity. I don't know how they run their lines against lower competition, but their game results are very inconsistent. They could easily do well in section, or lose in the quarters.





Marshall has had close games with 3 section opponents, Central, Virginia, and Hibbing and they didn't win ANY of them. And yes Virginia had 2 bad losses this year, to Mahtomedi and International Falls, however I don't think that depletes their whole season and deserves a 20 ranking, especially since they still have a shot at the #1 seed in sections. Oh and by the way, no, they could not "easily" lose in the quarters. semis or finals maybe but definitely not quarters.

[defense]

For me, games against section opponents are important. Head to head and against top teams, as is stated are also important. In my opinion though, a loss to a lower quality team in the section should hurt a team just as much as a win against a top section team helps a team.
I do not buy the "how they are playing now." I cannot believe that a section game in the first five games of the year shouldn't matter. I also cannot believe that any game early shouldn't matter. A game is a game is a game.
If you cannot use personel playing in a certain game as any type of excuse for a loss or tie,(like a backup goalie, or top scorers out of the lineup) then you definitely NEED to consider ALL games. On one hand the issue of who wasn't playing in goal for LF against Sartell is ignored, on the other hand a loss against M-B and a tie against Apollo is ignored when comparing Willmar with LF. Biased???
Ignore who is missing from the lineup for one team in a loss, ignore a loss to a lesser opponent by another team because it was early in the year. Both personel and when the game were played are secondary issues, but if you consider one, you need to consider both.
A ranking, such as a power ranking, or poll, or general ranking system done periodically throughout a given season generally puts more weight in how a team is currently playing than a seeding process for a postseason playoff.

[DubCHAGuy]

[quote="defense"] I do not buy the "how they are playing now." I cannot believe that a section game in the first five games of the year shouldn't matter. I also cannot believe that any game early shouldn't matter. A game is a game is a game. quote]

Agreed. I haven't followed 6A enough to know your details, but in general, the "how they are playing now" applies only to how people do the state rankings. For example, Edina loses Everson. Should they still be the #1 seed in 2AA? Yes. Would I still rank them as the current #2 team in the state? No, I would move them down.

[Bauerhockey74]

I believe slp could pull a couple of upsets off. They just need their goalie to play good and need to have good defense.

[totalonehockey23]

I believe slp could pull a couple of upsets off. They just need their goalie to play good and need to have good defense.

The number 2 seed is going to have to be geared up for a tough game against slp. Slp seems to be at the peak of their game and could be very tough to stop in sections.

[HShockeywatcher]

RangeHockeyFan1817, What if Virginia ended up #3 or #4 and Int Falls was #6 or #5? Could that not be an upset waiting to happen? I think so.

For me, games against section opponents are important. Head to head and against top teams, as is stated are also important. In my opinion though, a loss to a lower quality team in the section should hurt a team just as much as a win against a top section team helps a team.
I do not buy the "how they are playing now." I cannot believe that a section game in the first five games of the year shouldn't matter. I also cannot believe that any game early shouldn't matter. A game is a game is a game.
If you cannot use personel playing in a certain game as any type of excuse for a loss or tie,(like a backup goalie, or top scorers out of the lineup) then you definitely NEED to consider ALL games. On one hand the issue of who wasn't playing in goal for LF against Sartell is ignored, on the other hand a loss against M-B and a tie against Apollo is ignored when comparing Willmar with LF. Biased???
Ignore who is missing from the lineup for one team in a loss, ignore a loss to a lesser opponent by another team because it was early in the year. Both personel and when the game were played are secondary issues, but if you consider one, you need to consider both.
A ranking, such as a power ranking, or poll, or general ranking system done periodically throughout a given season generally puts more weight in how a team is currently playing than a seeding process for a postseason playoff.

Just a couple points.
1. I can agree to disagree. Never said I'm right, just giving my opinion.
2. I was not there, but I highly doubt the back up goalie is the sole reason for allowing 6 more goals than would've won the game.
3. The one head to head game with Wilmar/Little Falls was in Little Falls and Wilmar won. In general, when it comes to section rankings, if all else is someone close, which it is, I tip my hat to the winner.
4. Two of Wilmar's early losses were to section teams who they beat the second time they played. Sure, Little Falls is a better team (which is why they are ranked and Wilmar isn't) but in a smaller pool, Wilmar wins in my opinion.
5. It's not how you start, it's how you finish. If we needed to put as much weight on early games, there would be some formula, there would be no voting and it would be figured out easily. Wilmar isn't the team they were in December. Period.
6. If Little Falls had won the head to head meeting, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[RangeHockeyFan1817]

[quote="HShockeywatcher"]RangeHockeyFan1817, What if Virginia ended up #3 or #4 and Int Falls was #6 or #5? Could that not be an upset waiting to happen? I think so.

If that were the scenario then yes, but I can't really figure how that would come to be. Pretty much the only way they won't be #1 is if they lose tomorrow night, which is possible and if they do lose tomorrow they still will have beaten everyone else in the section once, no other team in the section has, so that should put them right below Hibbing at 2. I don't think you can put teams ahead of them that they beat head to head

[HShockeywatcher]

RangeHockeyFan1817, What if Virginia ended up #3 or #4 and Int Falls was #6 or #5? Could that not be an upset waiting to happen? I think so.

If that were the scenario then yes, but I can't really figure how that would come to be. Pretty much the only way they won't be #1 is if they lose tomorrow night, which is possible and if they do lose tomorrow they still will have beaten everyone else in the section once, no other team in the section has, so that should put them right below Hibbing at 2. I don't think you can put teams ahead of them that they beat head to head

With that logic Int. Falls would have to be ahead of Virginia, which is where that logic falls apart...

-Marshall tied Hibbing and lost in OT to Central and Virginia. (0-2-1)
-Central beat Marshall in OT and Hibbing by 2 but lost to Virginia. (2-1)
-Hibbing tied Marshall, beat Virginia and lost to Central. (1-1-1)
-Virginia beat Marshall in OT, lost to Hibbing and beat Central, but was the only team on this list to lose to Int. Falls. (2-1)

The record is the record against the other 3 of the top 4, which in my opinion is all that should matter with this section. Really, you could pull names out of a hat and I don't think anyone could argue with your order. The only issue I have is that Int. Falls loss; how is that weighed? Or is it just ignored?

My train of thought here; Central, Hibbing, and Virginia are in a A beat B beat C beat A circle. Virginia lost to International Falls, so they get the losing bid of all of that. Marshall didn't beat any of them, so I put them before everyone.

[PuckRanger]

RangeHockeyFan1817, What if Virginia ended up #3 or #4 and Int Falls was #6 or #5? Could that not be an upset waiting to happen? I think so.

This statement is a little unrealistic for two reasons:

1) The odds of a Virginia/I Falls quarterfinal matchup are a billion to one. I Falls will almost certainly be playing at Duluth Marshall in the quarters. The results make it pretty obvious... Falls will get the 5 seed, Virginia won't get any lower than 3 for sure, and most likely no lower than 2. That matchup isn't going to happen... the other lower seeds aren't going to beat anyone in the top 4.

2) Even if they were to meet in the quarters, the odds of I Falls winning again aren't very good. Everything fell into place for them that night in Virginia and they have completely fallen apart as a team since. Pulling off an upset like that twice in a few weeks isn't all that realistic.

[KICKED-IN-THE-PRIVATES]

I do not buy the "how they are playing now." I cannot believe that a section game in the first five games of the year shouldn't matter. I also cannot believe that any game early shouldn't matter. A game is a game is a game. quote]

Agreed. I haven't followed 6A enough to know your details, but in general, the "how they are playing now" applies only to how people do the state rankings. For example, Edina loses Everson. Should they still be the #1 seed in 2AA? Yes. Would I still rank them as the current #2 team in the state? No, I would move them down.

Thank You....

[RangeHockeyFan1817]

RangeHockeyFan1817, What if Virginia ended up #3 or #4 and Int Falls was #6 or #5? Could that not be an upset waiting to happen? I think so.

If that were the scenario then yes, but I can't really figure how that would come to be. Pretty much the only way they won't be #1 is if they lose tomorrow night, which is possible and if they do lose tomorrow they still will have beaten everyone else in the section once, no other team in the section has, so that should put them right below Hibbing at 2. I don't think you can put teams ahead of them that they beat head to head

With that logic Int. Falls would have to be ahead of Virginia, which is where that logic falls apart...-Marshall tied Hibbing and lost in OT to Central and Virginia. (0-2-1)
-Central beat Marshall in OT and Hibbing by 2 but lost to Virginia. (2-1)
-Hibbing tied Marshall, beat Virginia and lost to Central. (1-1-1)
-Virginia beat Marshall in OT, lost to Hibbing and beat Central, but was the only team on this list to lose to Int. Falls. (2-1)

The record is the record against the other 3 of the top 4, which in my opinion is all that should matter with this section. Really, you could pull names out of a hat and I don't think anyone could argue with your order. The only issue I have is that Int. Falls loss; how is that weighed? Or is it just ignored?

My train of thought here; Central, Hibbing, and Virginia are in a A beat B beat C beat A circle. Virginia lost to International Falls, so they get the losing bid of all of that. Marshall didn't beat any of them, so I put them before everyone.

Yes Virginia lost to the Falls once BUT they also BEAT them once lets not forget that. Which is why I said they beat everyone in the section ONCE if they were win tomorrow night

[PuckRanger]

...I do not buy the "how they are playing now." I cannot believe that a section game in the first five games of the year shouldn't matter. I also cannot believe that any game early shouldn't matter. A game is a game is a game...

I can't agree more. There is a reason why they keep score in ALL of the games. They do not show up on the schedule as scrimmages or exhibitions. They ALL count, and should count evenly.

The only scenario where I would count one game more heavily than another is when two teams play each other and split. I would give a very slight nod to the game two victor simply because that is the only form of a tie-breaker we may have in a very short and limited season. But you can't discount the first game entirely.

[HShockeywatcher]

So what if Hibbing wins the game this week? Hibbing should be ahead of Virginia. And I have a hard time putting Central behind Hibbing and putting a team who lost to the 5 seed at #1 or #2 regardless. It really seems like everyone is discounting the loss to International Falls IN Virginia simply because they won the first match up two months ago.

...I do not buy the "how they are playing now." I cannot believe that a section game in the first five games of the year shouldn't matter. I also cannot believe that any game early shouldn't matter. A game is a game is a game...

I can't agree more. There is a reason why they keep score in ALL of the games. They do not show up on the schedule as scrimmages or exhibitions. They ALL count, and should count evenly.

The only scenario where I would count one game more heavily than another is when two teams play each other and split. I would give a very slight nod to the game two victor simply because that is the only form of a tie-breaker we may have in a very short and limited season. But you can't discount the first game entirely.

I'm not going to say anyone's wrong, but I'm shocked to hear this. I don't know how it works, but even the Pagestat2 ranking gives more weight to more recent games. I'm not saying you discount them, but you need to understand that there is a difference. Maybe it's just because no one of the same opinion is saying anything, but I find it odd that we are ranking the schedule, not the team.

Is this all still about 6A? Because if it is, you also need to look at the fact that two of the section games Wilmar lost the first time around they won the 2nd time. I am not discounting any of the games being played.