Class A Rankings 2-13-11

[elliott70]

I will be shocked if 7A is not
Hibbing or Virginia
Central
Marshall
I Falls
Eveleth
and the rest....

[defense]

In January Willmar tied St. Cloud Apollo, they did beat them 1-0 last week though.... but they aren't going to get the chance to prove themselves against that pesky Morris-Benson team....Little Falls beat Apollo 5-3 last week and 8-1 in January, while they dispatched that pesky M-B team 5-1 in DEC. These are section games aren't they??

[KICKED-IN-THE-PRIVATES]

RangeHockeyFan1817, What if Virginia ended up #3 or #4 and Int Falls was #6 or #5? Could that not be an upset waiting to happen? I think so.

For me, games against section opponents are important. Head to head and against top teams, as is stated are also important. In my opinion though, a loss to a lower quality team in the section should hurt a team just as much as a win against a top section team helps a team.
I do not buy the "how they are playing now." I cannot believe that a section game in the first five games of the year shouldn't matter. I also cannot believe that any game early shouldn't matter. A game is a game is a game.
If you cannot use personel playing in a certain game as any type of excuse for a loss or tie,(like a backup goalie, or top scorers out of the lineup) then you definitely NEED to consider ALL games. On one hand the issue of who wasn't playing in goal for LF against Sartell is ignored, on the other hand a loss against M-B and a tie against Apollo is ignored when comparing Willmar with LF. Biased???
Ignore who is missing from the lineup for one team in a loss, ignore a loss to a lesser opponent by another team because it was early in the year. Both personel and when the game were played are secondary issues, but if you consider one, you need to consider both.
A ranking, such as a power ranking, or poll, or general ranking system done periodically throughout a given season generally puts more weight in how a team is currently playing than a seeding process for a postseason playoff.

Just a couple points.
1. I can agree to disagree. Never said I'm right, just giving my opinion.
2. I was not there, but I highly doubt the back up goalie is the sole reason for allowing 6 more goals than would've won the game.3. The one head to head game with Wilmar/Little Falls was in Little Falls and Wilmar won. In general, when it comes to section rankings, if all else is someone close, which it is, I tip my hat to the winner.
4. Two of Wilmar's early losses were to section teams who they beat the second time they played. Sure, Little Falls is a better team (which is why they are ranked and Wilmar isn't) but in a smaller pool, Wilmar wins in my opinion.
5. It's not how you start, it's how you finish. If we needed to put as much weight on early games, there would be some formula, there would be no voting and it would be figured out easily. Wilmar isn't the team they were in December. Period.
6. If Little Falls had won the head to head meeting, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Look at his Save Percentage, GAA, and wins (on the road at Hibbing, Tech, Brainerd, Rogers). It does matter that your starting goalie didn't play. LF outshot Sartell even though they spent more time in the box. And the game was at Sartel! Willmar out worked LF at LF (It didn't Help LF to have 2 of their best players sitting on the bench for discipline reasons) and that is 1 of 3 hiccups they've had this year!! Sartell, Willmar etc.. do not have those claims....

Things will clear themselves when Wilmar is beat by Tech tonight and Sartell is beat by Brainerd on Thursday.....

[RangeHockeyFan1817]

So what if Hibbing wins the game this week? Hibbing should be ahead of Virginia. And I have a hard time putting Central behind Hibbing and putting a team who lost to the 5 seed at #1 or #2 regardless. It really seems like everyone is discounting the loss to International Falls IN Virginia simply because they won the first match up two months ago.

...I do not buy the "how they are playing now." I cannot believe that a section game in the first five games of the year shouldn't matter. I also cannot believe that any game early shouldn't matter. A game is a game is a game...

Yes if Hibbing wins tonight they will be #1 I don't think anyone is disputing that and if that is the case and you're looking at either Virginia or Central for the 2 spot, it should go to Virginia because they beat Central. The loss to the Falls doesn't or shouldn't hold more weight than that win, it sounds like you're discounting a lot wins and only focusing on one loss, i'm not saying it should be forgotten by any means but it's not like they got blown out of the water by the Falls, they lost by one goal with seconds left in the game. and earlier you said you couldn't drop Marshall much because they lost a very close game, why doesn't that hold true for Virginia? Plus Central never even played the Falls so it can't be used as a common opponent argument, who knows if Central would have beat them or not if they would have played. This is a pretty good debate and appreciate that it has stayed that way, that's what the forum is for We'll see how things shake out tonight with the official seeding tomorrow

[HShockeywatcher]

KICKED-IN-THE-PRIVATES,

Goals against are not just on the goalie. And unless the goalie was getting the penalties and others were serving them for him, he is not to blame for that. Look at the top teams in the state; they play their backups in games they know they'll win. It's not an excuse, they lost a game. At the end of the day they have a lot of excuses and not much else, imo.

In January Willmar tied St. Cloud Apollo, they did beat them 1-0 last week though.... but they aren't going to get the chance to prove themselves against that pesky Morris-Benson team....Little Falls beat Apollo 5-3 last week and 8-1 in January, while they dispatched that pesky M-B team 5-1 in DEC. These are section games aren't they??

Again, my opinion, but Wilmar has not lost a section game since December and with the exception of losing to Morris by 1 goal away in the first game of the year, they beat both the other teams the second time around.

Regardless of common opponents, when you do have head to head, that outweighs it.

When all is said and done, I believe LF will get the top seed, then Sartell and Wilmar, but that is not how I think it should go personally.

Yes if Hibbing wins tonight they will be #1 I don't think anyone is disputing that and if that is the case and you're looking at either Virginia or Central for the 2 spot, it should go to Virginia because they beat Central. The loss to the Falls doesn't or shouldn't hold more weight than that win, it sounds like you're discounting a lot wins and only focusing on one loss, i'm not saying it should be forgotten by any means but it's not like they got blown out of the water by the Falls, they lost by one goal with seconds left in the game. and earlier you said you couldn't drop Marshall much because they lost a very close game, why doesn't that hold true for Virginia? Plus Central never even played the Falls so it can't be used as a common opponent argument, who knows if Central would have beat them or not if they would have played. This is a pretty good debate and appreciate that it has stayed that way, that's what the forum is for We'll see how things shake out tonight with the official seeding tomorrow

I agree it is a fun debate.

Personally, I fault both teams evenly for not playing. IF and DC didn't play. Well, they didn't play. Can't compare that.

-I will 100% agree that on paper Virginia should get the nod over Central.
-But the issue comes in when you compare Hibbing and Central I would give the nod to Central because of the head to head win and a couple common opponent comparisons.
-Then when you compare Hibbing and Virginia; IF Hibbing wins again, they for sure get the nod over Virginia. In that case, we have a little triangle. Without much to compare, Virginia is the ONLY one of the 4 that has lost to another section opponent so I would put them at the bottom, personally.

Then if Virginia wins tonight, I would let the loss slide as a fluke, give them the top seed, Central #2 and Hibbing #3.

It is tough. Again, I believe you could pull these three out of a hat and no one could really argue with you. This is just how I look at it.

[north*hockey]

I know it doesn't matter much now but honestly chisago lakes has no right to be up at the 9 spot. They don't have a single win this year against even a descent opponent. And now tonight they SLIDE by st. louis park....

[HShockeywatcher]

Virginia, Central, Hibbing, Marshall, Int Falls?

I don't like where a #5 beats the #1, but this seems to be it. I doubt if Simley were to beat St Thomas tonight they'd still be the #1 in 4A.

I know it doesn't matter much now but honestly chisago lakes has no right to be up at the 9 spot. They don't have a single win this year against even a descent opponent. And now tonight they SLIDE by st. louis park....

It's one of those tough schedules. They have 5 tough games on their schedule, and lost all 5 (two to the #3 by 1). But they also take care of business against the lower teams like almost no other team in the state. While other teams in the state have ties or close wins against lower teams, until tonight, they had not won a game by less than 2 goals. So yeah, they may be a team not deserving of the list, but what is one to do with them? All they have proven is that they couldn't beat Hibbing in their 3rd game, couldn't keep it close with BSM and are a goal short of Totino but that they take care of business otherwise. It would be interesting to see teams like this with a different schedule or in a different section.

[totalonehockey23]

I know it doesn't matter much now but honestly chisago lakes has no right to be up at the 9 spot. They don't have a single win this year against even a descent opponent. And now tonight they SLIDE by st. louis park....

I think chisago could actually surprise a lot of teams in sections. They may not have as much talent as other teams, but they could outwork many opponents. Yeah sure they probably aren't worthy of a top 10 spot. They did beat spring lake park twice this season which did beat bsm.

[totalonehockey23]

I know it doesn't matter much now but honestly chisago lakes has no right to be up at the 9 spot. They don't have a single win this year against even a descent opponent. And now tonight they SLIDE by st. louis park....

I think chisago could actually surprise a lot of teams in sections. They may not have as much talent as other teams, but they could outwork many opponents. Yeah sure they probably aren't worthy of a top 10 spot. They did beat spring lake park twice this season which did beat bsm.

[chubbs]

Virginia, Central, Hibbing, Marshall, Int Falls?

I don't like where a #5 beats the #1, but this seems to be it. I doubt if Simley were to beat St Thomas tonight they'd still be the #1 in 4A.

Not all sections are the same. 7a has more depth

[truehockeyfan]

Hermantown give up less then 3 goals in 5A

[HShockeywatcher]

Virginia, Central, Hibbing, Marshall, Int Falls?

I don't like where a #5 beats the #1, but this seems to be it. I doubt if Simley were to beat St Thomas tonight they'd still be the #1 in 4A.

Not all sections are the same. 7a has more depth

More than 4A?

The (most likely) 6th seed beat LOW and lost to Blake by 1. The (most likely) 7th seed beat Benilde. Simley will probably be 9th. It was just an example, but 7A definitely doesn't have more depth.

[elliott70]

Virginia, Central, Hibbing, Marshall, Int Falls?

I don't like where a #5 beats the #1, but this seems to be it. I doubt if Simley were to beat St Thomas tonight they'd still be the #1 in 4A.

Not all sections are the same. 7a has more depth

More than 4A?

The (most likely) 6th seed beat LOW and lost to Blake by 1. The (most likely) 7th seed beat Benilde. Simley will probably be 9th. It was just an example, but 7A definitely doesn't have more depth.

4A has 3 good teams capable of winning the section.
Although STA is pretty much a lock.

7A has 4 teams capable of winning it.
8A has 2 teams.

[elliott70]

5A has 4 but in reality it is hERMANTOWN (same as 4A)
6A 2 teams, maybe
1a 1 team
2A 1 team
3A Maybe, maybe 2 teams.

[elliott70]

So, the single A tourney can be set...

1 Lourdes
2 Blake
3 New Ulm
4 STA
5 Hermantown
6 Little Falls
7 one of 4 teams Virginia, Hibbing, Marshall and Central
8 one of two teams Warroad or Thief River Falls

1 - 6 will be a surprise if these teams do not win it...
7who knows
8 if one of those 2 don't win it, it is a surprise.

When they speak of depth, I think they mean possibilities of who will win.

[defense]

bump

[Mite-dad]

6A is far from set in stone. In fact I think it is a coin flip at this point. The top two teams are both playing well right now.

[elliott70]

6A
Sartell-St Stephen (15-7-1)
Wilmar (13-7-3)
Little Falls (19-3-2)
Detroit Lakes (13-9-1)
I still don’t believe the Fliers should be the top seed, but they are definitely the team to beat with their only two losses in their last 18 games being to Wilmar and Sartell.

ACTUAL
6A
1-Little Falls
2-Sartell
3-Willmar
4-Fergus Falls
5-Alexandria
6-Detroit Lakes
7-Northern Lakes
8-Morris-Benson
9-Apollo High School
10-Prarie Centre
11-Wadena- Deer Creek



7A
Duluth Central (12-12)
Hibbing (14-8-1)
Virginia (17-7)
Duluth Marshall (15-8-1)
Marshall dropped from the top to the bottom in the matter of two weeks. Sections will be exciting.

ACTUAL
7A
1. Virginia
2. Hibbing
3. Duluth Central
4. Duluth Marshall
5. International Falls
6. Eveleth
7. Silver Bay
8. Greenway
9. Ely
10. Two Harbors


8A
Lake of the Woods (15-5-3)
Thief River Falls (15-7-1)
Warroad (16-8 )
Crookston (10-11-3)
East Grand Forks (9-12-1)
This section is so close that the team I have at #5 has beaten the team I have at #1. Could the winner get the 4th seed at state?

ACTUAL
#1 Warroad
#2 TRF
#3 Low
#4 Crookston
#5 EGF
#6 RLF
#7 Park Rapids
#8 KCC
#9 Bagley

[chubbs]

More than 4A?

The (most likely) 6th seed beat LOW and lost to Blake by 1. The (most likely) 7th seed beat Benilde. Simley will probably be 9th. It was just an example, but 7A definitely doesn't have more depth.

Your right, depth probably wasn't the right word to use. I should've said that 7a probably has the most teams with a legitimate shot to win the section. 4a is definitely stronger all around.

[PuckU126]

6A
Sartell-St Stephen (15-7-1)
Wilmar (13-7-3)
Little Falls (19-3-2)
Detroit Lakes (13-9-1)
I still don’t believe the Fliers should be the top seed, but they are definitely the team to beat with their only two losses in their last 18 games being to Wilmar and Sartell.

ACTUAL
6A
1-Little Falls
2-Sartell
3-Willmar
4-Fergus Falls
5-Alexandria
6-Detroit Lakes
7-Northern Lakes
8-Morris-Benson
9-Apollo High School
10-Prarie Centre
11-Wadena- Deer Creek



7A
Duluth Central (12-12)
Hibbing (14-8-1)
Virginia (17-7)
Duluth Marshall (15-8-1)
Marshall dropped from the top to the bottom in the matter of two weeks. Sections will be exciting.

ACTUAL
7A
1. Virginia
2. Hibbing
3. Duluth Central
4. Duluth Marshall
5. International Falls
6. Eveleth
7. Silver Bay
8. Greenway
9. Ely
10. Two Harbors


8A
Lake of the Woods (15-5-3)
Thief River Falls (15-7-1)
Warroad (16-8 )
Crookston (10-11-3)
East Grand Forks (9-12-1)
This section is so close that the team I have at #5 has beaten the team I have at #1. Could the winner get the 4th seed at state?

ACTUAL
#1 Warroad
#2 TRF
#3 Low
#4 Crookston
#5 EGF
#6 RLF
#7 Park Rapids
#8 KCC
#9 Bagley

What a bust on the prediction/actual...

[elliott70]

3A
New Ulm (16-4-2)
Hutchinson (8-13-1)
Litchfield (14-8-1)
Marshall (15-5-3)
The weakest section in Class A, but New Ulm has shown they can play up to their opponents.

[elliott70]

3A
New Ulm (16-4-2)
Hutchinson (8-13-1)
Litchfield (14-8-1)
Marshall (15-5-3)
The weakest section in Class A, but New Ulm has shown they can play up to their opponents.

3A
1. New Ulm
2. Hutchinson
3. LDC
4. Marshall
5. Luverne
6. Redwood Valley
7. Sleepy Eye
8. Fairmont
9. Windom Area
10. Worthington

[HShockeywatcher]

6A
Sartell-St Stephen (15-7-1)
Wilmar (13-7-3)
Little Falls (19-3-2)
Detroit Lakes (13-9-1)
I still don’t believe the Fliers should be the top seed, but they are definitely the team to beat with their only two losses in their last 18 games being to Wilmar and Sartell.

ACTUAL
6A
1-Little Falls
2-Sartell
3-Willmar
4-Fergus Falls
5-Alexandria
6-Detroit Lakes
7-Northern Lakes
8-Morris-Benson
9-Apollo High School
10-Prarie Centre
11-Wadena- Deer Creek



7A
Duluth Central (12-12)
Hibbing (14-8-1)
Virginia (17-7)
Duluth Marshall (15-8-1)
Marshall dropped from the top to the bottom in the matter of two weeks. Sections will be exciting.

ACTUAL
7A
1. Virginia
2. Hibbing
3. Duluth Central
4. Duluth Marshall
5. International Falls
6. Eveleth
7. Silver Bay
8. Greenway
9. Ely
10. Two Harbors


8A
Lake of the Woods (15-5-3)
Thief River Falls (15-7-1)
Warroad (16-8 )
Crookston (10-11-3)
East Grand Forks (9-12-1)
This section is so close that the team I have at #5 has beaten the team I have at #1. Could the winner get the 4th seed at state?

ACTUAL
#1 Warroad
#2 TRF
#3 Low
#4 Crookston
#5 EGF
#6 RLF
#7 Park Rapids
#8 KCC
#9 Bagley

What a bust on the prediction/actual...

Not sure you can find it anywhere it may rankings pages that I said these were predictions of anything. What I have said multiple times, though, is that this is how I would rank them at the time. Additionally, (1) Warroad/LOW and Virginia/Hibbing games were both played this week AFTER my rankings. I'm not sure how Hibbing gets the nod on Central, but aside from that, both are how I'd have it now and (2) 6A is ranked how I have said I think it would get ranked. I wouldn't call that a bust.