Opting up?

[HShockeywatcher]

dontcallmeshirley, great post, but there's ultimately little point in making it. I've tried with very similar posts, as have others. I assume the majority of posters on here are from public schools (would make sense). I didn't know much about them til later in life, and I'm sure the same can be said of the reverse for most. I've never understood why ignorance of a topic brings rudeness, but it probably will continue.

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/competitiveS ... tivity=410

If you look on the left, you can click on "map" and this gives you a great idea of geo-relationship of the schools

AA makes sense for the most part, but parts of A have always confused me, assuming the goal is to be geographic, not talent based. Litchfield and Wilmar are right next to each other but in different sections; Proctor, Hermantown and Central, Park Rapids, etc, etc. But thanks for the link.

HSHW, the types of posts like the one above by you is what keeps these going. For someone who admits you never played, coached, or anything, you sure are high on yourself as a hockey mind. When you accomplish any of the above, you can call the rest of us ignorant, until then realize that you are the minority on this site.

Howie, high on myself as a hockey mind is something I definitely am not. I've gotten made fun of on here for asking dumb questions before that an average hockey mind would know.

No where in my post did I call any person or people ignorant, but that people can be ignorant of a specific topic. One of the definitions of ignorance from webster.com is "lack of knowledge." Period. Everyone is ignorant about something. Ignorant and dumb (or whatever you were thinking I meant) are not the same thing.

If my proper use of vocabulary makes me look bad for some reason, I can live with that.


As to your previous post, you should add that Warroad won in 2003 and 2005 and Hermantown won in 2007. Orono, Simley and Red Wing also made the finals in that time.

Another way to look at what is shown in those 11 years there have been 6 successful private school programs (5 that are currently Class A) and 5 successful public school programs, if we are counting making the finals as success. If it were a slew of private schools, then we could call it a private school thing, but it is specific private schools, just as it is specific public schools. Just another perspective to throw in there.

What you are saying may happen, which isn't very specific, nor should it be. I have not personally seen it, and have personally heard from multiple sources at multiple institutions that it does not happen. But I doubt it happens with all students. Many of these things probably happen at specific public schools as well, I don't know. And where the line between "legal recruiting" and "illegal recruiting" for a business is, I don't know.

Public schools all around the state and country deal with different types of recruiting, kids leaving for better athletic programs because "the academics are better" or other various reasons, some legit, some not. No, I do not have experience with it in hockey specifically, or MN for that matter, so maybe "hockey's different," but I doubt it. It happens on both sides.

The interesting thing that I see in MN and elsewhere is how gratifying it is to beat those schools. AHA recruits all their players but hasn't made state in 3 years. In my time in Duluth I'd heard of different people moving to Hermantown so they could raise their kids there so they could play hockey there. Sure, a handful (or a couple, depending on how you look at it) of private school have had recent success...as have the same amount of public schools. Personally, I'm on the fence on what is "right" and what is "wrong." Not all of what I post is my opinion, just different sides to a topic. It's a crazy systems, with different loop holes, some legal, some not.

Nothing is about "getting to last word." For me it is about hearing both sides to topics, learning information, discussing things, and putting other possible opinions out there.

[The X]

dontcallmeshirley, great post, but there's ultimately little point in making it. I've tried with very similar posts, as have others. I assume the majority of posters on here are from public schools (would make sense). I didn't know much about them til later in life, and I'm sure the same can be said of the reverse for most. I've never understood why ignorance of a topic brings rudeness, but it probably will continue.
AA makes sense for the most part, but parts of A have always confused me, assuming the goal is to be geographic, not talent based. Litchfield and Wilmar are right next to each other but in different sections; Proctor, Hermantown and Central, Park Rapids, etc, etc. But thanks for the link.

HSHW, the types of posts like the one above by you is what keeps these going. For someone who admits you never played, coached, or anything, you sure are high on yourself as a hockey mind. When you accomplish any of the above, you can call the rest of us ignorant, until then realize that you are the minority on this site.

Howie, high on myself as a hockey mind is something I definitely am not. I've gotten made fun of on here for asking dumb questions before that an average hockey mind would know.

No where in my post did I call any person or people ignorant, but that people can be ignorant of a specific topic. One of the definitions of ignorance from webster.com is "lack of knowledge." Period. Everyone is ignorant about something. Ignorant and dumb (or whatever you were thinking I meant) are not the same thing.

If my proper use of vocabulary makes me look bad for some reason, I can live with that.


As to your previous post, you should add that Warroad won in 2003 and 2005 and Hermantown won in 2007. Orono, Simley and Red Wing also made the finals in that time.

Another way to look at what is shown in those 11 years there have been 6 successful private school programs (5 that are currently Class A) and 5 successful public school programs, if we are counting making the finals as success. If it were a slew of private schools, then we could call it a private school thing, but it is specific private schools, just as it is specific public schools. Just another perspective to throw in there.

What you are saying may happen, which isn't very specific, nor should it be. I have not personally seen it, and have personally heard from multiple sources at multiple institutions that it does not happen. But I doubt it happens with all students. Many of these things probably happen at specific public schools as well, I don't know. And where the line between "legal recruiting" and "illegal recruiting" for a business is, I don't know.

Public schools all around the state and country deal with different types of recruiting, kids leaving for better athletic programs because "the academics are better" or other various reasons, some legit, some not. No, I do not have experience with it in hockey specifically, or MN for that matter, so maybe "hockey's different," but I doubt it. It happens on both sides.

The interesting thing that I see in MN and elsewhere is how gratifying it is to beat those schools. AHA recruits all their players but hasn't made state in 3 years. In my time in Duluth I'd heard of different people moving to Hermantown so they could raise their kids there so they could play hockey there. Sure, a handful (or a couple, depending on how you look at it) of private school have had recent success...as have the same amount of public schools. Personally, I'm on the fence on what is "right" and what is "wrong." Not all of what I post is my opinion, just different sides to a topic. It's a crazy systems, with different loop holes, some legal, some not.

Nothing is about "getting to last word." For me it is about hearing both sides to topics, learning information, discussing things, and putting other possible opinions out there.

Agreed.

[Pioneerprideguy]

Per Startribune.com. Totino will opt up in football & play with the big boys but STA will stay put and play JV hockey.

[stpaul]

I am surprised and a bit disgusted by STA's decision. Looking at this year's enrollment numbers they are the 2nd largest private school in the state behind only CDH. They have certainly been competitive with the top hockey schools the past 5 years. They have their own arena. Their JV team beat HM 4-1 on Saturday. BSM decided it was time to move up after winning two A titles. STA certainly should do the same.

2010-2011 private school enrollment in grades 9-12:
CDH 1328
STA 533 boys (equivalent of 1066)
BSM 930
TG 802
AHA 741
HM 705

[HShockeywatcher]

Per Startribune.com. Totino will opt up in football & play with the big boys but STA will stay put and play JV hockey.

Totino has won 6 of the last 8 titles in 4A football. The years they didn't win they were 10-2 and 9-2, both years with one regular season loss. In the three year span from 00-01 to 02-03 St Thomas won 10 games in hockey. Very different scenarios.

It will be interesting to see what section Totino ends up, as any in their area has at least one team that has been dominant in recent years.

I am surprised and a bit disgusted by STA's decision. Looking at this year's enrollment numbers they are the 2nd largest private school in the state behind only CDH. They have certainly been competitive with the top hockey schools the past 5 years. They have their own arena. Their JV team beat HM 4-1 on Saturday. BSM decided it was time to move up after winning two A titles. STA certainly should do the same.

2010-2011 private school enrollment in grades 9-12:
CDH 1328
STA 533 boys (equivalent of 1066)
BSM 930
TG 802
AHA 741
HM 705

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing them in AA, it would be much better for whichever section they end up in, AA hockey, their schedule and probably their program. On the other hand, it would hurt A hockey tremendously, and probably MN hockey in general.

I don't know how it would work out, but does anyone know how it would break down if the top half of private schools by enrollment were put in AA and the bottom half were in A?

I am still wowed by the phenomenon that says your class has diddly to do with your overall ability, and how this phenomenon somehow only takes place in MN HS hockey

Any other opt up changes known at this point?

[mulefarm]

If STA wants to be a class A school, why do they schedule mostly AA in non-conference games? Really don't see the challenge for them to stay A.

[DubCHAGuy]

Per Startribune.com. Totino will opt up in football & play with the big boys but STA will stay put and play JV hockey.

Totino has won 6 of the last 8 titles in 4A football. The years they didn't win they were 10-2 and 9-2, both years with one regular season loss. In the three year span from 00-01 to 02-03 St Thomas won 10 games in hockey. Very different scenarios.

It will be interesting to see what section Totino ends up, as any in their area has at least one team that has been dominant in recent years.

I am surprised and a bit disgusted by STA's decision. Looking at this year's enrollment numbers they are the 2nd largest private school in the state behind only CDH. They have certainly been competitive with the top hockey schools the past 5 years. They have their own arena. Their JV team beat HM 4-1 on Saturday. BSM decided it was time to move up after winning two A titles. STA certainly should do the same.

2010-2011 private school enrollment in grades 9-12:
CDH 1328
STA 533 boys (equivalent of 1066)
BSM 930
TG 802
AHA 741
HM 705

I definitely wouldn't mind seeing them in AA, it would be much better for whichever section they end up in, AA hockey, their schedule and probably their program. On the other hand, it would hurt A hockey tremendously, and probably MN hockey in general.
?

No. MN hockey was doing just fine 7-8 years ago when STA was irrelevant. Class A hockey would probably be fine too, considering STA plays in 4A which would still have several quality teams if they moved up to AA. If all or even a majority of the privates opted up, that may be a different story. That said, I don't see STA opting up next year and that is just fine if that is what they choose to do.

[HShockeywatcher]

If STA wants to be a class A school, why do they schedule mostly AA in non-conference games? Really don't see the challenge for them to stay A.

So many? Have you even looked that their schedule? Outside of Cretin, they schedule all of ONE non-conference AA team. They play in the Schwan Cup; are you suggesting asking to go down a division or two because of their Class?

They play 12 AA teams, 7 are conference games and 1 is Cretin.

[mulefarm]

If STA wants to be a class A school, why do they schedule mostly AA in non-conference games? Really don't see the challenge for them to stay A.

So many? Have you even looked that their schedule? Outside of Cretin, they schedule all of ONE non-conference AA team. They play in the Schwan Cup; are you suggesting asking to go down a division or two because of their Class?

They play 12 AA teams, 7 are conference games and 1 is Cretin.

So they really are a AA team, but wants to win the A state tournament, so they go down at tournament time. Real convenient.

[crickett75]

If STA wants to be a class A school, why do they schedule mostly AA in non-conference games? Really don't see the challenge for them to stay A.

So many? Have you even looked that their schedule? Outside of Cretin, they schedule all of ONE non-conference AA team. They play in the Schwan Cup; are you suggesting asking to go down a division or two because of their Class?

They play 12 AA teams, 7 are conference games and 1 is Cretin.

So they really are a AA team, but wants to win the A state tournament, so they go down at tournament time. Real convenient.

shame·less
   /ˈʃeɪmlɪs/ Show Spelled[sheym-lis]
–adjective
1.
lacking any sense of shame: immodest; audacious.
2.
insensible to disgrace.
3.
showing no shame.

Origin:
before 900; Middle English; Old English sceamlēas. See shame, -less

—Related forms
shame·less·ly, adverb
shame·less·ness, noun

—Synonyms
1. brazen, indecent, impudent, bold, unabashed, unashamed. 2. hardened, unprincipled, corrupt.

—Antonyms
1. modest.

[HShockeywatcher]

If STA wants to be a class A school, why do they schedule mostly AA in non-conference games? Really don't see the challenge for them to stay A.

So many? Have you even looked that their schedule? Outside of Cretin, they schedule all of ONE non-conference AA team. They play in the Schwan Cup; are you suggesting asking to go down a division or two because of their Class?

They play 12 AA teams, 7 are conference games and 1 is Cretin.

So they really are a AA team, but wants to win the A state tournament, so they go down at tournament time. Real convenient.

SSP plays 15 AA games on their schedule, they should definitely move up first. Right?

[ACTUALFORMERPLAYER]

So many? Have you even looked that their schedule? Outside of Cretin, they schedule all of ONE non-conference AA team. They play in the Schwan Cup; are you suggesting asking to go down a division or two because of their Class?

They play 12 AA teams, 7 are conference games and 1 is Cretin.

So they really are a AA team, but wants to win the A state tournament, so they go down at tournament time. Real convenient.

SSP plays 15 AA games on their schedule, they should definitely move up first. Right?

Agreed. Do they both need help with the paperwork?

[MNpuck14]

unreal. St. Thomas which is a AA caliber team, playing A and crushing the dreams of anyone else including teams in 4A like Mahtomedi, Totino, and SSP from ever getting their chance to play in the state tournament. Just ridiculous. Grow a pair!

[HShockeywatcher]

unreal. St. Thomas which is a AA caliber team, playing A and crushing the dreams of anyone else including teams in 4A like Mahtomedi, Totino, and SSP from ever getting their chance to play in the state tournament. Just ridiculous. Grow a pair!

The phenomenon of the class you are a part of in a class system determined by enrollment of the school having diddly to do with the integrity of the program happens only in the MN high school hockey

[Yakunin]

I heard today at the hockey tournament that the Holy Family Catholic Fire moved up to AA as well. Congrats to them for making the move. That program will keep growing quickly under their new coaching staff and playing at the AA.

[DotaDangler]

unreal. St. Thomas which is a AA caliber team, playing A and crushing the dreams of anyone else including teams in 4A like Mahtomedi, Totino, and SSP from ever getting their chance to play in the state tournament. Just ridiculous. Grow a pair!

"crushing the dreams of anyone else" You realize Mahtomedi beat STA to go to state the previous two seasons right?

Write a letter to the MSHL and explain why you think STA should move up, just try not to smudge the ink with your tears.

[ICE23]

Ya, but if STA, Breck, Totino, etc. all moved up then everyone would be complaining about watching an all private team tourney, and say all the public schools deserve to have their own state tourney

But lets say STA did move up and pretend they were in the tourney instead of say...Eden Prairie (just an example). Then theres another team you can add to the list of teams that deserve to be in the tourney that aren't there. This way you can see both teams. If they dont want to move up so be it.

In reality public school programs can develope players through the ranks and have a good sense how the team will be in upcoming years(yes they could lose some to to transfer, juniors, etc). STA was not really even on the hockey map 10 years ago and if you ask them what their future holds 5-6 years down the road they really have no idea. You can assume good players will continue to enroll there, but you really dont know, maybe they will go back to where they were 10 years ago or maybe the MSHSL will make more restrictions to transfering. Ask a team like Eden Prairie the same question and they can just look at the Peewee program and you can have an idea of how they will be 5-6 years down the road.

[MNpuck14]

unreal. St. Thomas which is a AA caliber team, playing A and crushing the dreams of anyone else including teams in 4A like Mahtomedi, Totino, and SSP from ever getting their chance to play in the state tournament. Just ridiculous. Grow a pair!

"crushing the dreams of anyone else" You realize Mahtomedi beat STA to go to state the previous two seasons right?

Write a letter to the MSHL and explain why you think STA should move up, just try not to smudge the ink with your tears.

You realize that was with NHL draft D1 hockey player Ben Marshall right? Also with the help of Zurn, Adams, and Wohlers who are all gone now.

[thestickler07]

To be quite honest I'm over the two class system of hockey, and think a change to a one class system would be best. Imagine no opt-ups but otherwise have sections as they are now. Then at the end of the section playoffs the champion of section 1A plays the champion of section 1AA for the right to represent section 1 in state. It would be a sweet sixteen-esque situation in that you could play schools your size in the section initially but would eventually create david v goliath matchups the section finals. With no-opt ups you have to play with schools your size and couldn't strategically opt-up or stay down depending on the difficulty of the sections that year.

Also, I'm pretty tired of people complaining about competitive balance in class A. The MSHSL has made it pretty clear that enrollment is the paramount priority for determining fairness in postseason competition. If you have a problem with that take it up with them don't b**** about it endlessly on the internet. If you want to complain about fairness or give everyone a medal for participating be my guest but that isn't what the real world is like and reinforcing the "everyone is a winner" notion is foolish because you'll get left behind. Living out of state I haven't seen ANY crying or complaining about privates in sports in the state leagues. People accept privates as being a part of the competition and play accordingly. Making an excuse saying they recruit or that its "not what was intended" by playing in class A is petty in my opinion. And if that's wasn't what was intended, then why hasn't the MSHSL changed anything? If the MSHSL wanted the best competitive balance for every state tournament they could do it, use a Tier system or have an open class where the best teams could decide at the end of the year what playoff level they thought they could compete in.

In the end after all the bickering and crying people are going to have to sack up and teach your kids that there are winners and losers in everything in life, down from jobs to high school hockey. And complaining about advantages/disadvantages that you or others have doesn't change the final score. You can keep your moral victories, I'll keep the "W" in the history books.


Oh and after that whole rant, STA should be ashamed for playing in the JV tournament. Opt up in every sport and beat the best. No glory in being the big fish in a small pond. Leave that distinction to the losers who think the A tournament is their rightful place.

[The X]

To be quite honest I'm over the two class system of hockey, and think a change to a one class system would be best. Imagine no opt-ups but otherwise have sections as they are now. Then at the end of the section playoffs the champion of section 1A plays the champion of section 1AA for the right to represent section 1 in state. It would be a sweet sixteen-esque situation in that you could play schools your size in the section initially but would eventually create david v goliath matchups the section finals. With no-opt ups you have to play with schools your size and couldn't strategically opt-up or stay down depending on the difficulty of the sections that year.

Also, I'm pretty tired of people complaining about competitive balance in class A. The MSHSL has made it pretty clear that enrollment is the paramount priority for determining fairness in postseason competition. If you have a problem with that take it up with them don't b**** about it endlessly on the internet. If you want to complain about fairness or give everyone a medal for participating be my guest but that isn't what the real world is like and reinforcing the "everyone is a winner" notion is foolish because you'll get left behind. Living out of state I haven't seen ANY crying or complaining about privates in sports in the state leagues. People accept privates as being a part of the competition and play accordingly. Making an excuse saying they recruit or that its "not what was intended" by playing in class A is petty in my opinion. And if that's wasn't what was intended, then why hasn't the MSHSL changed anything? If the MSHSL wanted the best competitive balance for every state tournament they could do it, use a Tier system or have an open class where the best teams could decide at the end of the year what playoff level they thought they could compete in.

In the end after all the bickering and crying people are going to have to sack up and teach your kids that there are winners and losers in everything in life, down from jobs to high school hockey. And complaining about advantages/disadvantages that you or others have doesn't change the final score. You can keep your moral victories, I'll keep the "W" in the history books.


Oh and after that whole rant, STA should be ashamed for playing in the JV tournament. Opt up in every sport and beat the best. No glory in being the big fish in a small pond. Leave that distinction to the losers who think the A tournament is their rightful place.

Hey Stickler, obviously, you have no concept of reality with this issue. Nor do I think you have kids playing at this time or possibly ever. When a school like Breck loses 14 seniors like last years team did, then turns around and makes it back to the tourney there is a problem here. Granted Breck did get beat in the QF by a strong TRF team but its just ridiculous. Obviously, you feel that this is ok because you have no kids being denied opportunities year after year because of these AAA private school teams that recruit top talent to play against these small town schools. This is precisely, IMO, what is wrong with this country and is the reason we are in the shape we are in. The sense of entitlement at all costs regardless of who it effects and the realities of the situation. Oh yea, STA 12 New Ulm 2, I guess New Ulm just could not compete with a metro all star team. What a joke.

[WB6162]

I hope they opt up for the sake of the kids. They are good enough to play AA and their school should show a little faith in them.

There is nothing positive left for St Thomas playing at the A level. If they win the championship, it means nothing to anyone.

Until they opt up to play with the big boys they are nothing to me. A good school, nice kids but their hockey program is a joke, to me.

[The X]

I hope they opt up for the sake of the kids. They are good enough to play AA and their school should show a little faith in them.

There is nothing positive left for St Thomas playing at the A level. If they win the championship, it means nothing to anyone.

Until they opt up to play with the big boys they are nothing to me. A good school, nice kids but their hockey program is a joke, to me.

They are good enough to play AA because most of them came from large associations that play AA in high school. Therefore, if you are a top player in a large association then transfer to an A level school you should be a superstar in high school. Which is what you are seeing at STA.

[HShockeywatcher]

Hey Stickler, obviously, you have no concept of reality with this issue. Nor do I think you have kids playing at this time or possibly ever. When a school like Breck loses 14 seniors like last years team did, then turns around and makes it back to the tourney there is a problem here. Granted Breck did get beat in the QF by a strong TRF team but its just ridiculous. Obviously, you feel that this is ok because you have no kids being denied opportunities year after year because of these AAA private school teams that recruit top talent to play against these small town schools. This is precisely, IMO, what is wrong with this country and is the reason we are in the shape we are in. The sense of entitlement at all costs regardless of who it effects and the realities of the situation. Oh yea, STA 12 New Ulm 2, I guess New Ulm just could not compete with a metro all star team. What a joke.

Hermantown was a team of mostly seniors, "reloaded" like Breck and is a better team than they are but it's okay because they are public?

You'd be okay with Hermantown winning 13-2 and St Thomas 5-1? This is the playoffs, you don't have to hold back.

As I've told you personally, and said on here, I'd prefer St Thomas to move up. I don't like the system we have now, but that's another issue.

When students leave for private schools, they free up spots on public schools' rosters for kids to play. They are creating opportunities for others, not taking them away.
If you mean at the state level, St Thomas being in 3AA or 4AA this year would've meant another private school in AA (possibly) and TG in their spot in A. Just different kids.

[The X]

Hey Stickler, obviously, you have no concept of reality with this issue. Nor do I think you have kids playing at this time or possibly ever. When a school like Breck loses 14 seniors like last years team did, then turns around and makes it back to the tourney there is a problem here. Granted Breck did get beat in the QF by a strong TRF team but its just ridiculous. Obviously, you feel that this is ok because you have no kids being denied opportunities year after year because of these AAA private school teams that recruit top talent to play against these small town schools. This is precisely, IMO, what is wrong with this country and is the reason we are in the shape we are in. The sense of entitlement at all costs regardless of who it effects and the realities of the situation. Oh yea, STA 12 New Ulm 2, I guess New Ulm just could not compete with a metro all star team. What a joke.

Hermantown was a team of mostly seniors, "reloaded" like Breck and is a better team than they are but it's okay because they are public?

You'd be okay with Hermantown winning 13-2 and St Thomas 5-1? This is the playoffs, you don't have to hold back.

As I've told you personally, and said on here, I'd prefer St Thomas to move up. I don't like the system we have now, but that's another issue.

When students leave for private schools, they free up spots on public schools' rosters for kids to play. They are creating opportunities for others, not taking them away.
If you mean at the state level, St Thomas being in 3AA or 4AA this year would've meant another private school in AA (possibly) and TG in their spot in A. Just different kids.

The "consolation" thread explains this best. No, I'm not okay with the publics doing this as opposed to your privates. One has to wonder what is going on up there as well. If you watched the hermantown qtr final game, it sure looked like they let off the gas a little bit after it was obvious they were going to win. Was waiting for your reply.

[HShockeywatcher]

The "consolation" thread explains this best. No, I'm not okay with the publics doing this as opposed to your privates. One has to wonder what is going on up there as well. If you watched the hermantown qtr final game, it sure looked like they let off the gas a little bit after it was obvious they were going to win. Was waiting for your reply.

I have read the consolation thread and don't know what's there that explains this. Sorry I missed it.

Generally when blowouts (which 13-2 is right on the fence of being) are discussed, most will say once you're in the playoffs, all bets are off. This isn't just the playoffs, it's state. The common belief is that the team should operate as they normally would.

The next line of thought is that if you are going to "lay off" it is insulting to the other team to play keep away; you should give the lower lines a chance and keep playing the game. It doesn't usually come up in discussing a game at State that you stop playing.

All that being said, I didn't get a chance to watch the game. From the stat sheet, I see that 15 players got points, 4 defensemen scored, only 3 players got 4 points, the teams best player only had 2 points and the most goals a single player had was 2.
Again, I did not watch the game, but what the stat sheet tells me is that they did "lay off," they did not roll the top lines the whole game, they spread the scoring around, etc, etc. I would also bet they could've scored 10+ more goals had they been trying to.

No these games are not fun and no one likes that they happen. But they do and they have to be played. Strictly from looking at the stat sheet, within the integrity of the game, it looks to me as if they did a great job of following the guidelines of playing a weaker team.

Funny how no one complained about running up the score in the final of AA in 2006