STA

[PuckU126]

And yes, Providence Academy belongs in AA (along with Legacy Christian, St. Paul Saints, St. Paul Academy, and Minnehaha Academy.) - they are the host private school. They can offer those same advantages if they choose to do so.

Its not about being good in hockey, its about their ability to draw from a large pool of players which greatly enhances their ability to be good.

Their abilities are obviously lacking; why throw teams that cannot compete on a full fledged AA schedule?

With hockey rich programs like BSM, AHA, STA and HM cornering the Metro, those teams quoted above will have a difficult time to be able to obtain the talent and structure to compete on a higher level.

What I am saying is not all private schools belong in Class AA. BSM made the right move roughly 10 years ago, as did HM and AHA; however, STA does have the capabilities and structure so they should opt up.

The teams listed above can stay Class A because they offer even competition to the rest of their level. IMO no harm, no foul.

[PuckRanger]

And yes, Providence Academy belongs in AA (along with Legacy Christian, St. Paul Saints, St. Paul Academy, and Minnehaha Academy.) - they are the host private school. They can offer those same advantages if they choose to do so.

Its not about being good in hockey, its about their ability to draw from a large pool of players which greatly enhances their ability to be good.

Their abilities are obviously lacking; why throw teams that cannot compete on a full fledged AA schedule?

With hockey rich programs like BSM, AHA, STA and HM cornering the Metro, those teams quoted above will have a difficult time to be able to obtain the talent and structure to compete on a higher level.

What I am saying is not all private schools belong in Class AA. BSM made the right move roughly 10 years ago, as did HM and AHA; however, STA does have the capabilities and structure so they should opt up.

The teams listed above can stay Class A because they offer even competition to the rest of their level. IMO no harm, no foul.

While I agree that these teams probably aren't going to be top notch AA programs, that doesn't mean they can't play there. There are plenty of AA teams that don't contend for anything year in and year out. (Dodge County, Winona, River Lakes, Cambridge, Becker, and several others for example.) It would just be better for the big picture to have them all play AA instead of hand picking who can stay down and who moves up based on talent (again that leads toward the tier II garbage). Its about the fairest way to approach it that I can see.

[PuckU126]

And yes, Providence Academy belongs in AA (along with Legacy Christian, St. Paul Saints, St. Paul Academy, and Minnehaha Academy.) - they are the host private school. They can offer those same advantages if they choose to do so.

Its not about being good in hockey, its about their ability to draw from a large pool of players which greatly enhances their ability to be good.

Their abilities are obviously lacking; why throw teams that cannot compete on a full fledged AA schedule?

With hockey rich programs like BSM, AHA, STA and HM cornering the Metro, those teams quoted above will have a difficult time to be able to obtain the talent and structure to compete on a higher level.

What I am saying is not all private schools belong in Class AA. BSM made the right move roughly 10 years ago, as did HM and AHA; however, STA does have the capabilities and structure so they should opt up.

The teams listed above can stay Class A because they offer even competition to the rest of their level. IMO no harm, no foul.

While I agree that these teams probably aren't going to be top notch AA programs, that doesn't mean they can't play there. There are plenty of AA teams that don't contend for anything year in and year out. (Dodge County, Winona, River Lakes, Cambridge, Becker, and several others for example.) It would just be better for the big picture to have them all play AA instead of hand picking who can stay down and who moves up based on talent (again that leads toward the tier II garbage). Its about the fairest way to approach it that I can see.

That's fair to say. I just think the current setting those teams (not including STA) are fine where they are right now IMO. Currently they are playing at a proper competitive level.

However, if they ever turn into a private juggernaut and start to dominate their Class, they should opt up. *Cough* STA *Cough*

[HShockeywatcher]

I do have an issue with the arguments about a school having to make improvements to keep its athletes.

Where else in life will you see this? Someone staying at a job despite a better opportunity elsewhere? This simply does not happen.

And yes, Providence Academy belongs in AA (along with Legacy Christian, St. Paul Saints, St. Paul Academy, and Minnehaha Academy.) - they are the host private school. They can offer those same advantages if they choose to do so.

Its not about being good in hockey, its about their ability to draw from a large pool of players which greatly enhances their ability to be good.

Their abilities are obviously lacking; why throw teams that cannot compete on a full fledged AA schedule?

With hockey rich programs like BSM, AHA, STA and HM cornering the Metro, those teams quoted above will have a difficult time to be able to obtain the talent and structure to compete on a higher level.

What I am saying is not all private schools belong in Class AA. BSM made the right move roughly 10 years ago, as did HM and AHA; however, STA does have the capabilities and structure so they should opt up.

The teams listed above can stay Class A because they offer even competition to the rest of their level. IMO no harm, no foul.

While I agree that these teams probably aren't going to be top notch AA programs, that doesn't mean they can't play there. There are plenty of AA teams that don't contend for anything year in and year out. (Dodge County, Winona, River Lakes, Cambridge, Becker, and several others for example.) It would just be better for the big picture to have them all play AA instead of hand picking who can stay down and who moves up based on talent (again that leads toward the tier II garbage). Its about the fairest way to approach it that I can see.

1. What you just outlined is the basic principle for why schools should not opt up. Were teams not allowed to opt up and create this "tier II garbage" private schools would not be dominating as they are.

2. This is an issue for you, but public schools using open enrollment is not?

[PuckRanger]

Where else in life will you see this? Someone staying at a job despite a better opportunity elsewhere? This simply does not happen.

This isn't business. Its high school athletics. I don't agree with this line of thinking at all. These kids aren't applying for jobs.

1. What you just outlined is the basic principle for why schools should not opt up. Were teams not allowed to opt up and create this "tier II garbage" private schools would not be dominating as they are.

What you would have is an all metro class of hockey. Do you realize that most of the traditional northern hockey powers are all class A schools based on enrollment. Even Duluth East was until the merger of their schools takes place next year. You would have no Grand Rapids, no Roseau, no East, no Cloquet... no northern flare in the tournament. That would be the just plain awful.

Also, you would have Hill-Murray, BSM, Cretin, etc. all playing back in class A, so YES, there still would likely be private school domination. The teams that would be forced back down that are the traditional powerhouses would be replacing other public schools in the state tourney... ie Grand Rapids replaces Virginia or Hibbing, Roseau replaces Warroad or TRF. You would still likely have 3-5 private schools in the state tournament. There are only 5 public schools that opt up, and ALL of them play in section 7AA or 8AA. Preventing opt ups would probably make the problem worse.

2. This is an issue for you, but public schools using open enrollment is not?

No. Open enrollment is an entirely different issue. Nobody has built a class A power hockey school using primarily open enrolled students.

[HShockeywatcher]

What strikes me as odd is that NO ONE yet has suggested things that the MSHSL do that would actually put a school like St Thomas in the top class without arbitrarily saying they have to be, for example, changing how enrollment is calculated.

Does Minneapolis North really only have 171 students at their schools? No, that number is adjusted for economic reasons, because lower socioeconomic students are less likely to participate in athletics, for example. They are playing Class A football next year because of it.

The number of students in your school determines who CAN participate, but not who actually does. If the actual number of students, or maybe a %, who do participate in extra-curricular activities at a school were counted, then a school where 90% of students participate would be up there.

Just one thought, and it would most likely be more accurate in general.

Where else in life will you see this? Someone staying at a job despite a better opportunity elsewhere? This simply does not happen.

This isn't business. Its high school athletics. I don't agree with this line of thinking at all. These kids aren't applying for jobs.

It was one example. This is life, which is what we are preparing kids for. PUBLIC schools shouldn't be a business, in the true sense of the word, but why can't there be competition? There is academically, but when students transfer not purely for academic reasons it's a bad thing.

1. What you just outlined is the basic principle for why schools should not opt up. Were teams not allowed to opt up and create this "tier II garbage" private schools would not be dominating as they are.

What you would have is an all metro class of hockey. Do you realize that most of the traditional northern hockey powers are all class A schools based on enrollment. Even Duluth East was until the merger of their schools takes place next year. You would have no Grand Rapids, no Roseau, no East, no Cloquet... no northern flare in the tournament. That would be the just plain awful.

Also, you would have Hill-Murray, BSM, Cretin, etc. all playing back in class A, so YES, there still would likely be private school domination. The teams that would be forced back down that are the traditional powerhouses would be replacing other public schools in the state tourney... ie Grand Rapids replaces Virginia or Hibbing, Roseau replaces Warroad or TRF. You would still likely have 3-5 private schools in the state tournament. There are only 5 public schools that opt up, and ALL of them play in section 7AA or 8AA. Preventing opt ups would probably make the problem worse.

What you are explaining here is a system where the class a school is in (which is supposed to be based on enrollment, not ability) somehow has anything to do with their talent level.

Were all of those schools to be in Class A, we would have, at the very least, two very good tournaments every year. On some years, a Class A tournament better than the Class AA tournament.

Sections would probably end up realigned somehow.

Cretin does not opt up. That point aside, how could the private school "domination" continue? That doesn't even make sense. All the private schools would be in the same sections, they would simply mostly be in Class A, there would be more public schools in Class AA and the traditional hockey powers would probably play in the X more.

2. This is an issue for you, but public schools using open enrollment is not?

No. Open enrollment is an entirely different issue. Nobody has built a class A power hockey school using primarily open enrolled students.

You don't know that, and neither do I. The analogy with private schools would be "built a class A power hockey school using primarily recruited students," which strictly for hockey purposes probably doesn't happen too much.

The issue isn't having a team that is primarily open enrolled happened, it can be one player that makes the difference.

But just like the private school issue, the issue for me is that it CAN happen. As you've already explained, you, and people in general, only care about the private schools who are successful, not private schools in general. Well, the same is true here. I have no issue with Hopkins, Apple Valley, Simley, or any other public school team that does well in their sport because of OE. It exists and CAN be used.

[goldy313]

Watcher, be carefull what you post because some of it is just wrong, factually wrong.

Minneapolis North is closing in 3 years because they have so few students. Do they have 171? they have 265 this year. They're still in A for football, adjusted or not. They have 40 freshmen this year and will not allow another class to enroll. So with no incoming freshmen and a graduating class this spring their school will have a reduced enrollment for the duration of their existance. If you're going to comment on Minneapolis North, get the story right, it's been news in the state for most of the past 6 months.

I have and others (hockeydad for one) have suggested that private schools should be counted differently than public ones. One such suggestion is private schools use a 1.5 multiplier, another has been in ice availability, another is the summer coaching option. So to say NO ONE is flat wrong. There are ideas and some very good ones at that to find some sort of balance that recognize the aspects of hockey that make competitive balance different than in basketball or baseball.

I said this here on a different thread, the coaches association makes a lot of decisions, the MSHSL almost always goes along with their recomendations. Just like within any entity there are differing opinions and the hockey coaches are no exception, right now the view of Ken Pauly and those that elected him prevail. That won't be the case forever and then the landscape may change, there are voices in the coaching community not very happy at the direction the hockey world is headed and the inequity set up to enhance a very very few members in Class A. What happens then is a big question.

Things happen very slowly in regards to change, it took nearly 10 years from the onset of going to 2 classes in hockey to actually getting there. It took at least 6 years to get a transfer rule in place. It's taken 10 years to move towards section scheduling in football and we're still not there. The calls to to change hockey classification aren't new but also haven't been studied or presented yet, that will cahnge in the next couple of years.

[PuckRanger]

What strikes me as odd is that NO ONE yet has suggested things that the MSHSL do that would actually put a school like St Thomas in the top class without arbitrarily saying they have to be, for example, changing how enrollment is calculated.

Does Minneapolis North really only have 171 students at their schools? No, that number is adjusted for economic reasons, because lower socioeconomic students are less likely to participate in athletics, for example. They are playing Class A football next year because of it.

The number of students in your school determines who CAN participate, but not who actually does. If the actual number of students, or maybe a %, who do participate in extra-curricular activities at a school were counted, then a school where 90% of students participate would be up there.

Just one thought, and it would most likely be more accurate in general.

While its not a terrible idea, that type of system is just not realistic to implement. It doesn't need to be that complicated. Again, this should not just apply to St. Thomas Academy, but all private schools. A system like that would require some kind of foresight to see which kids are going to be playing sports at least a year in advance (so sections can be created) and would create a logistical nightmare trying to schedule things because you might be bounced into a different class if your incoming freshman class has really high or really low participation numbers, which probably has no real impact on the varsity team anyway.

It was one example. This is life, which is what we are preparing kids for. PUBLIC schools shouldn't be a business, in the true sense of the word, but why can't there be competition? There is academically, but when students transfer not purely for academic reasons it's a bad thing.

Competing for athletes just isn't something I believe in. The number of athletes that are actually preparing for a career in athletics is less than one tenth of one percent. School administrations should be focusing their efforts on other things besides trying to find a way to retain a student for athletic purposes. By the way, teaching a little bit of LOYALTY wouldn't be such a bad thing either.... something in which society in general could use a refresher course.

What you are explaining here is a system where the class a school is in (which is supposed to be based on enrollment, not ability) somehow has anything to do with their talent level.

Were all of those schools to be in Class A, we would have, at the very least, two very good tournaments every year. On some years, a Class A tournament better than the Class AA tournament.

Sections would probably end up realigned somehow.

Cretin does not opt up. That point aside, how could the private school "domination" continue? That doesn't even make sense. All the private schools would be in the same sections, they would simply mostly be in Class A, there would be more public schools in Class AA and the traditional hockey powers would probably play in the X more.

I'm not sure why I typed Cretin, I meant Holy Angels... Anyway, I am not sure where your picking up the idea where I think talent has anything to do with classifying these schools. I never said that, nor do I believe that should be considered. I said ALL private schools belong in class AA. The reason is solely to create a more competitive balance in class A - which is what the class system was designed to do in the first place. Besides, I struggle to see how you think things would be so different. We would have an almost identical tournament in class A. Sections would not be realigned that dramatically, especially outstate. They are geographically created (as they are in all MSHSL activities) and that wouldn't change because of the addition of the 8 or 9 schools that would no longer be allowed to opt up. To illustrate, here is likely who the tournament entrants would be in class A this year:
Section 1A: Rochester Lourdes
Section 2A: Breck or Holy Angels
Section 3A: New Ulm
Section 4A: Hill-Murray or St. Thomas Academy
Section 5A: Hermantown
Section 6A: Alexandria
Section 7A: Grand Rapids
Section 8A: Bemidji

Still 3 private schools here. We would have similar first round results as well with sections 4,5,7. and 8 likely all winning. We might have different ordering in the top 4, but the consolation bracket ends up the same.

Also 3 overtime section final AA games would not have taken place without Bemidji, Hill, and Rapids in AA. Tell me how this is an improvement?

You don't know that, and neither do I. The analogy with private schools would be "built a class A power hockey school using primarily recruited students," which strictly for hockey purposes probably doesn't happen too much.

I disagree... STA, Breck, Blake, Duluth Marshall, BSM and perhaps a couple more dramatically enhanced their schools by building strong hockey programs. Without hockey, these schools would not have anything near the notoriety they have now. There are plenty of accounts - some even documented on this forum - of private schools recruiting public school players. Schools won't ever admit it - they can't, but it isn't a big secret (outside of a select few who refuse to pull the blinders off) that it happens.

The issue isn't having a team that is primarily open enrolled happened, it can be one player that makes the difference.

One player will not build a decade long stretch of top-ten teams. So, yes, that IS the issue.

But just like the private school issue, the issue for me is that it CAN happen. As you've already explained, you, and people in general, only care about the private schools who are successful, not private schools in general. Well, the same is true here. I have no issue with Hopkins, Apple Valley, Simley, or any other public school team that does well in their sport because of OE. It exists and CAN be used.

That is not what I said. In fact, I have said numerous times in this thread alone that ALL private schools belong in AA, not just the successful ones. And as I said, open enrollment is a different issue and I don't have much of a problem with it as it is right now.

[HShockeywatcher]

Minneapolis North is closing in 3 years because they have so few students. Do they have 171? they have 265 this year. They're still in A for football, adjusted or not. They have 40 freshmen this year and will not allow another class to enroll. So with no incoming freshmen and a graduating class this spring their school will have a reduced enrollment for the duration of their existance. If you're going to comment on Minneapolis North, get the story right, it's been news in the state for most of the past 6 months.

I have and others (hockeydad for one) have suggested that private schools should be counted differently than public ones. One such suggestion is private schools use a 1.5 multiplier, another has been in ice availability, another is the summer coaching option. So to say NO ONE is flat wrong. There are ideas and some very good ones at that to find some sort of balance that recognize the aspects of hockey that make competitive balance different than in basketball or baseball.

You are correct in that I did not know the issue MPLS North is facing. That being said, nothing I posted was factually wrong. Their posted "enrollment" is 65% of their actual enrollment, which was my whole point. Were their true enrollment used, they would be playing AA football, for example.

Fine, two people in a 13 page thread. I stand corrected; the point was no serious discussion has been made about it, which is true.
Personally I do not understand the rational for counting students more because they play sports, or are more apt to. An affluent student who attends a private school is more likely to play sports that one who attends a public school?
I would say that another category, like students on free or reduced lunch, could be used to count students less.
I don't know how much of a difference it would make, but I'd like to see schools count the attendance of boys and girls different.

It was one example. This is life, which is what we are preparing kids for. PUBLIC schools shouldn't be a business, in the true sense of the word, but why can't there be competition? There is academically, but when students transfer not purely for academic reasons it's a bad thing.

Competing for athletes just isn't something I believe in. The number of athletes that are actually preparing for a career in athletics is less than one tenth of one percent. School administrations should be focusing their efforts on other things besides trying to find a way to retain a student for athletic purposes. By the way, teaching a little bit of LOYALTY wouldn't be such a bad thing either.... something in which society in general could use a refresher course.

I'm not by any means saying that schools should try to be more competitive with their hockey program, I'm talking about their school. I'd be willing to bet that more MPLS players, who weren't going to go to a private school for HS already, would stay in the system were the schools better. A private school allows them to live where they are but go somewhere where the educational opportunities are better. Improve the SCHOOL and more students will stay.

Loyalty is a two way street. Part of that goes from the school to the student. You call it loyalty to stay with a school that is not loyal to your individual success when you have the ability to attend one?

I agree with your statement about our society, but that is another topic.

What you are explaining here is a system where the class a school is in (which is supposed to be based on enrollment, not ability) somehow has anything to do with their talent level.

Were all of those schools to be in Class A, we would have, at the very least, two very good tournaments every year. On some years, a Class A tournament better than the Class AA tournament.

Sections would probably end up realigned somehow.

That point aside, how could the private school "domination" continue? That doesn't even make sense. All the private schools would be in the same sections, they would simply mostly be in Class A, there would be more public schools in Class AA and the traditional hockey powers would probably play in the X more.

I'm not sure why I typed Cretin, I meant Holy Angels... Anyway, I am not sure where your picking up the idea where I think talent has anything to do with classifying these schools. I never said that, nor do I believe that should be considered. I said ALL private schools belong in class AA. The reason is solely to create a more competitive balance in class A - which is what the class system was designed to do in the first place. Besides, I struggle to see how you think things would be so different. We would have an almost identical tournament in class A. Sections would not be realigned that dramatically, especially outstate.

Also 3 overtime section final AA games would not have taken place without Bemidji, Hill, and Rapids in AA. Tell me how this is an improvement?

You say talent has nothing to do with it, but then say that it is because of competitiveness (which comes from the talent of the schools). Tweak the formula in a fair way if you want, I have no issue with that, but saying that a successful team in the current system needs to be part of a bigger system doesn't make sense. You can see many examples of this in college athletics, even hockey.

You used one year's example. Maybe this year things wouldn't have changed, although Duluth East probably would've been the winner of the whole thing. But on any other year where there are at least 1, or more, private schools in AA, things would be changed. It would be better because we'd have two great tournaments.

I'm not at all saying the AA tournament would be better (unless you dislike having private schools ruin your tournament). I'm saying we would have two great tournaments instead of one.
If all good basketball, football, baseball, etc programs opted up to the top class, would state be better in the top class every year? Sure, but the overall quality of the tournaments would hurt, which is what we have now.

And to try to solve this we want more good teams from the lower class to play up, diluting the talent pool of the the lower class even more, instead of getting rid of all dilution?

As far as realignment goes, right now all A sections 2-8 have 9-11 members and 1A has 12. Were you to add 8 or 9 teams to that mix and sections were to stay equally sized some teams from one region would have to be placed in another. I don't know how, but it would happen. And just as it is not purely geographical now, with Hermantown in 5A and not 7A, the same could be done for a competitive aspect.

You don't know that, and neither do I. The analogy with private schools would be "built a class A power hockey school using primarily recruited students," which strictly for hockey purposes probably doesn't happen too much.

I disagree... STA, Breck, Blake, Duluth Marshall, BSM and perhaps a couple more dramatically enhanced their schools by building strong hockey programs. Without hockey, these schools would not have anything near the notoriety they have now. There are plenty of accounts - some even documented on this forum - of private schools recruiting public school players. Schools won't ever admit it - they can't, but it isn't a big secret (outside of a select few who refuse to pull the blinders off) that it happens.

To say they don't recruit and no one will admit it is wrong. They need to recruit. I was recruited (away from a different private school) and I helped recruit other prospective students while attending the academy. As do those working for and attending public schools.

These schools would be known for different reasons, but I don't thinking saying these schools wouldn't have the notoriety they have now is that true. Additionally, in much of the [hockey] public's eyes, a lot of what they are known for now is considered negative.

But just like the private school issue, the issue for me is that it CAN happen. As you've already explained, you, and people in general, only care about the private schools who are successful, not private schools in general. Well, the same is true here. I have no issue with Hopkins, Apple Valley, Simley, or any other public school team that does well in their sport because of OE. It exists and CAN be used.

That is not what I said. In fact, I have said numerous times in this thread alone that ALL private schools belong in AA, not just the successful ones. And as I said, open enrollment is a different issue and I don't have much of a problem with it as it is right now.[/quote]

How is it different?
It cannot happen with the same frequency as going to private schools, simply because of numbers, but the same things can happen. I do not know the ins and outs of where all players come from, nor do I think that should be (or is) public knowledge, so I cannot know if schools in hockey have benefited or not. They do in other sports and one can only assume they do in hockey as well.

I have no issue with it. If you're a good hockey (or football, or basketball or gymnastics) player, as well as a good student, why not transfer somewhere with better academics where you can also be on a better team? What I do not understand is why people are in denial that this happens. Despite what you say, we are not in denial about private schools recruiting, which is legal. Why are your blinders on when it comes to how OE is used for different reasons?

[MrBoDangles]

STA is sandbagging
STA HAD something to be proud of a few years ago.
The faculty have been the leaders in the pussifacation of the program.
Hermantown was the real class A champion
Holy Family and no STA?
Hockey players are now going to avoid going to STA
The reason they stay down is fear
Nobody cares about North Mpls's attendance
Shattuck St. Mary and then the class A tournament?
STA is making a mockery out of MN HS Hockey

HSHW keeps trying to change the real topics

[HShockeywatcher]

HSHW keeps trying to change the real topics

No, he is trying to discuss the real issues. Many understand that and have respectful discussions with me and others about that.

In the current system, would 95+% of people like to see St Thomas play in AA? Yes. Asked and answered. Why they are not opting up is curious at this point, but within their rights as an institution.

Why the MSHSL doesn't "care" to change things is something I'd be curious about. It'd be nice to hear from someone with some actual knowledge about the topics.

I have first hand knowledge of what St Thomas is/was like from when I went to school there and what private schools are like. I have first hand knowledge of how many public schools operate and the "attracting" of players to different schools for both academic, athletic and other reasons. The only sports St Thomas is "dominant" in are alpine skiing and swimming; were they in AA in either they would be just as successful. I do not care what class they are in; I only give MY perspective on the situation as a whole.
To me, a lot of this is an issue in the educational system as a whole. Many seem to ignore that and want to blame private schools for what is happening instead of working to fix the issues of why students leave for them.

[MrBoDangles]

HSHW keeps trying to change the real topics

No, he is trying to discuss the real issues. Many understand that and have respectful discussions with me and others about that.

In the current system, would 95+% of people like to see St Thomas play in AA? Yes. Asked and answered. Why they are not opting up is curious at this point, but within their rights as an institution.

Why the MSHSL doesn't "care" to change things is something I'd be curious about. It'd be nice to hear from someone with some actual knowledge about the topics.

I have first hand knowledge of what St Thomas is/was like from when I went to school there and what private schools are like. I have first hand knowledge of how many public schools operate and the "attracting" of players to different schools for both academic, athletic and other reasons. The only sports St Thomas is "dominant" in are alpine skiing and swimming; were they in AA in either they would be just as successful. I do not care what class they are in; I only give MY perspective on the situation as a whole.
To me, a lot of this is an issue in the educational system as a whole. Many seem to ignore that and want to blame private schools for what is happening instead of working to fix the issues of why students leave for them.

It's about knowing when it's time. STA needs the MSHSL to change the rules/guidelines to MAKE them move up? How is it possible that you, and the faculty, do not understand how blatantly low class this is?

Do you find it funny that you have to say "within their rights"? You are just admitting that they're...... sandbaggers, cowards, etc.

The downward spiral of STA. The people all know now.

[High Flyer]

](*,) HSHW keeps trying to change the real topics

No, he is trying to discuss the real issues. Many understand that and have respectful discussions with me and others about that.

HShockeywatcher-Trying to have a respectful disussion with Bodangs is like spitting into the wind...

[PuckRanger]

I'm not by any means saying that schools should try to be more competitive with their hockey program, I'm talking about their school. I'd be willing to bet that more MPLS players, who weren't going to go to a private school for HS already, would stay in the system were the schools better. A private school allows them to live where they are but go somewhere where the educational opportunities are better. Improve the SCHOOL and more students will stay.

Loyalty is a two way street. Part of that goes from the school to the student. You call it loyalty to stay with a school that is not loyal to your individual success when you have the ability to attend one?

I agree with your statement about our society, but that is another topic.

There in lies the reason the private schools have an advantage and likens them more to a AA school since they can pick and choose who attends, which is what I have been saying all along. Public schools don't have the same resources available to make this happen. I am not faulting the school, just pointing out it is an advantage and a large one at that when comparing to a public school of similar enrollment, which are class A schools. That advantage isn't as prevelant when comparing to AA schools.

You say talent has nothing to do with it, but then say that it is because of competitiveness (which comes from the talent of the schools). Tweak the formula in a fair way if you want, I have no issue with that, but saying that a successful team in the current system needs to be part of a bigger system doesn't make sense. You can see many examples of this in college athletics, even hockey.

You used one year's example. Maybe this year things wouldn't have changed, although Duluth East probably would've been the winner of the whole thing. But on any other year where there are at least 1, or more, private schools in AA, things would be changed. It would be better because we'd have two great tournaments.

I'm not at all saying the AA tournament would be better (unless you dislike having private schools ruin your tournament). I'm saying we would have two great tournaments instead of one.
If all good basketball, football, baseball, etc programs opted up to the top class, would state be better in the top class every year? Sure, but the overall quality of the tournaments would hurt, which is what we have now.

And to try to solve this we want more good teams from the lower class to play up, diluting the talent pool of the the lower class even more, instead of getting rid of all dilution?

As far as realignment goes, right now all A sections 2-8 have 9-11 members and 1A has 12. Were you to add 8 or 9 teams to that mix and sections were to stay equally sized some teams from one region would have to be placed in another. I don't know how, but it would happen. And just as it is not purely geographical now, with Hermantown in 5A and not 7A, the same could be done for a competitive aspect.

Actually, they are 100% purely geographical. See the map here. All the public schools that opt up would be in 7A or 8A if they were to play down. The private schools are all metro, thus they would end up in one of the metro sections. They would be in section 2A or 4A and likely bump a school on the outskirts like Waconia or Chisago Lakes into another section.

To say they don't recruit and no one will admit it is wrong. They need to recruit. I was recruited (away from a different private school) and I helped recruit other prospective students while attending the academy. As do those working for and attending public schools.

These schools would be known for different reasons, but I don't thinking saying these schools wouldn't have the notoriety they have now is that true. Additionally, in much of the [hockey] public's eyes, a lot of what they are known for now is considered negative.

I was implying recruit for hockey... not in general. These schools would not be that popular without hockey... no way, no how. It would be nieve to think that these schools would have much, if any, state-wide recognition if they didn't have good hockey programs.

How is it different?
It cannot happen with the same frequency as going to private schools, simply because of numbers, but the same things can happen. I do not know the ins and outs of where all players come from, nor do I think that should be (or is) public knowledge, so I cannot know if schools in hockey have benefited or not. They do in other sports and one can only assume they do in hockey as well.

I have no issue with it. If you're a good hockey (or football, or basketball or gymnastics) player, as well as a good student, why not transfer somewhere with better academics where you can also be on a better team? What I do not understand is why people are in denial that this happens. Despite what you say, we are not in denial about private schools recruiting, which is legal. Why are your blinders on when it comes to how OE is used for different reasons?

Open enrollment isn't comparable. It does happen, yes, and I don't think anyone is in denial about it. And when a lot of that takes place in the metro it is among AA schools, which isn't relative to my point. My point is that the small class A hockey schools don't benefit from it much. A player here or there, maybe yes. But, as I said earlier, they do not build an entire hockey team with it. I'll use Warroad as an example... how are they to draw a handful of metro players to come up there and play? In fact, how are they even going to draw players from anywhere in the state? Options are limited... severely. Same can be said for dozens and dozens of other class A schools. Meanwhile, STA, Breck, and others just zip down the road and have their pick of the litter. This is not a fair playing field. This is what I am refering to when I say "competetive balance". I am not referring to the quality of play on the ice. Its about each school getting a fair chance at fielding a competetive team. Some will and some won't, such is the nature of athletics. Bottom line is that it is different and it is because of numbers just as you said, which is exactly why private schools belong in class AA.

[MrBoDangles]

HSHW keeps trying to change the real topics

No, he is trying to discuss the real issues. Many understand that and have respectful discussions with me and others about that.

HShockeywatcher-Trying to have a respectful disussion with Bodangs is like spitting into the wind...

Tell me what isn't truthful about my post..?

[HShockeywatcher]

No, he is trying to discuss the real issues. Many understand that and have respectful discussions with me and others about that.

HShockeywatcher-Trying to have a respectful disussion with Bodangs is like spitting into the wind...

Tell me what isn't truthful about my post..?

truth and respect are the same thing now?

[HShockeywatcher]

I'm not by any means saying that schools should try to be more competitive with their hockey program, I'm talking about their school. I'd be willing to bet that more MPLS players, who weren't going to go to a private school for HS already, would stay in the system were the schools better. A private school allows them to live where they are but go somewhere where the educational opportunities are better. Improve the SCHOOL and more students will stay.

Loyalty is a two way street. Part of that goes from the school to the student. You call it loyalty to stay with a school that is not loyal to your individual success when you have the ability to attend one?

I agree with your statement about our society, but that is another topic.

There in lies the reason the private schools have an advantage and likens them more to a AA school since they can pick and choose who attends, which is what I have been saying all along. Public schools don't have the same resources available to make this happen. I am not faulting the school, just pointing out it is an advantage and a large one at that when comparing to a public school of similar enrollment, which are class A schools. That advantage isn't as prevelant when comparing to AA schools.

Sure, if everyone and their brother were applying to them they could simply pick the best athletes of those qualified, but this simply does not happen. If you read the article on Totino and football, the enrollments are declining.

Actually, they are 100% purely geographical. See the map here. All the public schools that opt up would be in 7A or 8A if they were to play down. The private schools are all metro, thus they would end up in one of the metro sections. They would be in section 2A or 4A and likely bump a school on the outskirts like Waconia or Chisago Lakes into another section.

I will agree they are mostly geographical, although if they were 100% geographical Hermantown and Proctor would not be in the same section with Central in a different section.

That all being said, let's pretend for a second (while ignoring private schools) that all schools who would come down are in section 7 or 8. Looking at the map, Central (and maybe even Two Harbors) would probably get bumped into 5. Some of the southern schools in 8 would probably get bumped into 6. Schools like the Mankatos and maybe Albert Lea could get into 3. There's lots that could happen that would keep things "mostly geographical" and make things more competitive.

I was implying recruit for hockey... not in general. These schools would not be that popular without hockey... no way, no how. It would be nieve to think that these schools would have much, if any, state-wide recognition if they didn't have good hockey programs.

Open enrollment isn't comparable. It does happen, yes, and I don't think anyone is in denial about it. And when a lot of that takes place in the metro it is among AA schools, which isn't relative to my point. My point is that the small class A hockey schools don't benefit from it much. A player here or there, maybe yes. But, as I said earlier, they do not build an entire hockey team with it. I'll use Warroad as an example... how are they to draw a handful of metro players to come up there and play? In fact, how are they even going to draw players from anywhere in the state? Options are limited... severely. Same can be said for dozens and dozens of other class A schools. Meanwhile, STA, Breck, and others just zip down the road and have their pick of the litter. This is not a fair playing field. This is what I am refering to when I say "competetive balance". I am not referring to the quality of play on the ice. Its about each school getting a fair chance at fielding a competetive team. Some will and some won't, such is the nature of athletics. Bottom line is that it is different and it is because of numbers just as you said, which is exactly why private schools belong in class AA.

Let me get this straight, certain private schools should be AA because they CAN just walk down the street and "pick" good athletes, even if they DO NOT. Meanwhile, A public schools that CAN also "pick" good athletes should not be AA because they also DO NOT? At least we know how logical statements work

Two things:
1. This still implies that AA is "better." People continue to come on here every year and talk about how hockey is a sport you do not need numbers to be good at.
And now in a system based on enrollment, in a sport where numbers don't give you an advantage, small schools, with a competitive advantage, should be in a class with schools bigger than them? If you read that and think it doesn't flow, I concur

2. You are really making private schools sound like they have some dog catcher, or crane game, or something of the sort and they just track down good students that will be good athletes in the future and force them into the seats.
I have heard of plenty of students in the past who wanted to go to certain private schools for athletic reasons and didn't because they knew they would not be able to survive the academic rigor.
It is funny how very few have good things to say about an institution with no girls, that you have to wear a funny, not affiliated with the military in any way, uniform, whose main focus is your success and preparing you for college but somehow they can so easily "pick" any kids they want to attend their school.

[Neuuman]

I'm not by any means saying that schools should try to be more competitive with their hockey program, I'm talking about their school. I'd be willing to bet that more MPLS players, who weren't going to go to a private school for HS already, would stay in the system were the schools better. A private school allows them to live where they are but go somewhere where the educational opportunities are better. Improve the SCHOOL and more students will stay.

Loyalty is a two way street. Part of that goes from the school to the student. You call it loyalty to stay with a school that is not loyal to your individual success when you have the ability to attend one?

I agree with your statement about our society, but that is another topic.

There in lies the reason the private schools have an advantage and likens them more to a AA school since they can pick and choose who attends, which is what I have been saying all along. Public schools don't have the same resources available to make this happen. I am not faulting the school, just pointing out it is an advantage and a large one at that when comparing to a public school of similar enrollment, which are class A schools. That advantage isn't as prevelant when comparing to AA schools.

Sure, if everyone and their brother were applying to them they could simply pick the best athletes of those qualified, but this simply does not happen. If you read the article on Totino and football, the enrollments are declining.

Actually, they are 100% purely geographical. See the map here. All the public schools that opt up would be in 7A or 8A if they were to play down. The private schools are all metro, thus they would end up in one of the metro sections. They would be in section 2A or 4A and likely bump a school on the outskirts like Waconia or Chisago Lakes into another section.

I will agree they are mostly geographical, although if they were 100% geographical Hermantown and Proctor would not be in the same section with Central in a different section.

That all being said, let's pretend for a second (while ignoring private schools) that all schools who would come down are in section 7 or 8. Looking at the map, Central (and maybe even Two Harbors) would probably get bumped into 5. Some of the southern schools in 8 would probably get bumped into 6. Schools like the Mankatos and maybe Albert Lea could get into 3. There's lots that could happen that would keep things "mostly geographical" and make things more competitive.

I was implying recruit for hockey... not in general. These schools would not be that popular without hockey... no way, no how. It would be nieve to think that these schools would have much, if any, state-wide recognition if they didn't have good hockey programs.

Open enrollment isn't comparable. It does happen, yes, and I don't think anyone is in denial about it. And when a lot of that takes place in the metro it is among AA schools, which isn't relative to my point. My point is that the small class A hockey schools don't benefit from it much. A player here or there, maybe yes. But, as I said earlier, they do not build an entire hockey team with it. I'll use Warroad as an example... how are they to draw a handful of metro players to come up there and play? In fact, how are they even going to draw players from anywhere in the state? Options are limited... severely. Same can be said for dozens and dozens of other class A schools. Meanwhile, STA, Breck, and others just zip down the road and have their pick of the litter. This is not a fair playing field. This is what I am refering to when I say "competetive balance". I am not referring to the quality of play on the ice. Its about each school getting a fair chance at fielding a competetive team. Some will and some won't, such is the nature of athletics. Bottom line is that it is different and it is because of numbers just as you said, which is exactly why private schools belong in class AA.

Let me get this straight, certain private schools should be AA because they CAN just walk down the street and "pick" good athletes, even if they DO NOT. Meanwhile, A public schools that CAN also "pick" good athletes should not be AA because they also DO NOT? At least we know how logical statements work

Two things:
1. This still implies that AA is "better." People continue to come on here every year and talk about how hockey is a sport you do not need numbers to be good at.
And now in a system based on enrollment, in a sport where numbers don't give you an advantage, small schools, with a competitive advantage, should be in a class with schools bigger than them? If you read that and think it doesn't flow, I concur

2. You are really making private schools sound like they have some dog catcher, or crane game, or something of the sort and they just track down good students that will be good athletes in the future and force them into the seats.
I have heard of plenty of students in the past who wanted to go to certain private schools for athletic reasons and didn't because they knew they would not be able to survive the academic rigor.
It is funny how very few have good things to say about an institution with no girls, that you have to wear a funny, not affiliated with the military in any way, uniform, whose main focus is your success and preparing you for college but somehow they can so easily "pick" any kids they want to attend their school.

This has probably been debated to death (maybe in this thread, maybe not). But let's be honest. Private school vs. public vs. low enrollment. You could solve all this by going back to one class. Look at the flip side - why don't we have 8 different classes - then every varsity player could say they played in a state tournament. O.K. - great. But what does THAT mean? Being a "champion" should be something special. Do you think if you asked all professional baseball players if they thought a AAA minor league championship meant as much as a world series title they'd all say yes? Is it fair to have schools with an enrollment of 350 competing against schools with an enrollment of 3000? Of course not. But, who ever said life was fair? I don't mean to be cruel, but what exactly do we want to teach children? Do you think when you go out into the real world and are competing for an engineering job with someone with a degree from MIT and you've got your degree from a small college with a not too good reputation for engineering, they are really going to care that "oh, we're smaller, not as good, but we try hard?"

Let's go back to everybody competing on one level. Do you really think the USA hockey gold medal in 1980 would have felt as good as it did if there were an Olympic "A" class and an Olympic "AA" class?

IMHO

[Goalie171]

Who else thinks it's messed up that STA students salute the American flag. They may be Junior ROTC but they are NOT in the military and I know alot of people in the military that were really mad about them saluting the flag.

[MNHockeyFan]

It is funny how very few have good things to say about an institution with no girls, that you have to wear a funny, not affiliated with the military in any way, uniform, whose main focus is your success and preparing you for college but somehow they can so easily "pick" any kids they want to attend their school.

Yeah that is pretty weird when you think about it:

> No girls
> Must wear military-like uniforms
> Demanding academics with tons of homework

But so what? All they need to do is snap their fingers and the area's best hockey players will come running*!

* Even if it is "JV Hockey" as some here like to call it!

[Neuuman]

Who else thinks it's messed up that STA students salute the American flag. They may be Junior ROTC but they are NOT in the military and I know alot of people in the military that were really mad about them saluting the flag.

If they are "NOT in the military" and choose to salute the flag, what exactly is the problem? I guess I thought the American flag was a symbolic figure of "America" - I wasn't aware the military had exclusive rights.

P.S. - God bless all the soldiers fighting for our rights.

[DotaDangler]

Who else thinks it's messed up that STA students salute the American flag. They may be Junior ROTC but they are NOT in the military and I know alot of people in the military that were really mad about them saluting the flag.

Are you effin kidding me. Proves people will really bitch about anything when it comes to STA. JROTC students are instructed on how to salute the flag properly, and it is actually a JROTC requirement that cadets in uniform salute the flag at appropriate times such as a sporting event or when it is first raised in the morning. And those rules are made by people who ARE in the military(Army). Please don't comment on things you know nothing about.

[High Flyer]

No, he is trying to discuss the real issues. Many understand that and have respectful discussions with me and others about that.

HShockeywatcher-Trying to have a respectful disussion with Bodangs is like spitting into the wind...

Tell me what isn't truthful about my post..?

you can't handle the truth, so you deflect and insult

[MrBoDangles]

STA is sandbagging
STA HAD something to be proud of a few years ago.
The faculty have been the leaders in the pussifacation of the program.
Hermantown was the real class A champion
Holy Family and no STA?
Hockey players are now going to avoid going to STA
The reason they stay down is fear
Nobody cares about North Mpls's attendance
Shattuck St. Mary and then the class A tournament?
STA is making a mockery out of MN HS Hockey

HSHW keeps trying to change the real topics

[MrBoDangles]

The STA folks on here are blinded into thinking- that if there IS a little doubt that they will win the A championship- that they must be at the right level.

I don't think there is one person on either side of this discussion that feels they should not move up to AA. Why do you think that is? So if everyone thinks the same thing, do you think it is at all possible that this is why the Hockey community is losing all respect for the program/school?

I remember being excited for STA the first year they started doing good. Only recently, with their scheduling and total domination of the small school class, have I become fed up with them, along with most others.

The only reason the faculty wants to stay at A is because they figure why possibly ruin what we have now. Them saying that they don't want to excell (be known) at a higher level is a lie. I hope we all know that.

The sad truth to all this is that STA will take a large hit from this decision. People now know their angle....... They are hoping to stay a household name by collecting the small program trophy.

Look for this program to take a downward spiral..... Because of the faculty cowards.