STA

[MrBoDangles]

From followthepuck.com... a very good overview of STA and other private schools... IMO...

Attention St. Thomas Academy: Isn't your move up overdue?

With Holy Family Catholic making the move up to Class AA after only three years of having their own independent hockey program, what is stopping St. Thomas Academy, the 2011 Class A State Champions? St. Thomas Academy hockey is a proven successful program and the Cadets play over 50 percent of their regular season schedule against Class AA teams and prep schools. The Cadets would most likely be welcomed with open arms and better respected by the boys high school hockey fan base if they decided to FINALLY move up. Section 3AA looks like a nice fit for them.

Holy Family Catholic 2011-2012 enrollment: 595 (boys & girls)
Hill-Murray 2011-2012 enrollment: 705 (boys & girls)
Academy of Holy Angels 2011-2012 enrollment: 741 (boys & girls)
St. Thomas Academy 2011-2012 enrollment: 1066 (all boys Academy)*

Additional Information:

*Since I made the post above, I received two emails that the St. Academy enrollment for grades 9 through 12 is actually 534. The Cadets school information can be found here: http://www.cadets.com/page/365

They, the MSHSL (Minnesota State High School League), doubled the number (1066) because it is an all boys school. Not sure why that was necessary but that is what they did. I think all they needed to do was list it as '534 (boys only)'.

One of the emails also suggested, since I was singling out St. Thomas Academy, that I should also call out Breck School, Hermantown, and Blake School to move up as well. They too have had successful hockey programs in recent years. The pro-St. Thomas Academy supporter that emailed me had a good point if we were strictly talking about similar enrollments and successful programs at the Class A level. However, we are talking about an ALL BOYS SCHOOL. They have 534 BOYS. The other three schools, cut in half to represent the number of potential boys, would be Breck (200), Blake (260), Hermantown (313).

My point is that St. Thomas Academy has a much larger pool of boys eligible to play hockey and that they schedule a majority of their games against Class AA teams or prep schools. They play like a Class AA team during the regular season but they go into the Class A tournaments looking like Goliath's big brother.

2010-2011 regular season games vs. Class AA and elite non-MSHSL prep schools:
St. Thomas Academy: 15 out of 25 | 60%
Blake School: 9 out of 25 | 36%
Breck School: 8 out of 25 | 32%
Hermantown: 6 out of 25 | 24%

New Class AA team Holy Family Catholic: 4 out of 24 | 16.7%

If St. Thomas Academy does not want to move up due to their enrollment size, that is absolutely their prerogative. However, if the Cadets argument is that they want to play better competition during the regular season, why does that not stay consistent with deciding to opt up to the Class AA level and play in that tournament where the better teams are?

St. Thomas Academy's record versus Class A schools in the last six years:

91-8-4 (.919 win percentage)

2010-2011: 16-0-0 | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2009-2010: 13-2-0 (lost to Mahtomedi twice including the Section 4A title game)
2008-2009: 11-2-2 (lost to Duluth Marshall and Mahtomedi, Mahtomedi in the 4A title game)
2007-2008: 16-2-0 (lost to Breck and Duluth Marshall) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2006-2007: 17-1-1 (lost to Duluth Marshall at state and tied them regular season) | CLASS A THIRD PLACE
2005-2006: 18-1-1 (lost to Breck, tied Red Wing) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS

If it were not for Mahtomedi, St. Thomas Academy could be, should be looking at four straight Class A titles. But, somehow, Mahtomedi was able to upset St. Thomas Academy not once but twice in the Section 4A playoffs in back-to-back years thanks to some outstanding and timely goaltending by Brad Wohlers of the Zephyrs in both years. Mahtomedi was badly outshot in both games. In the 2010 playoffs, St. Thomas Academy outshot the Zephyrs 45-25. In 2009, 49-23 Cadets.

Some more information for the debate...

[muckandgrind]

You could solve all this by going back to one class. Look at the flip side - why don't we have 8 different classes - then every varsity player could say they played in a state tournament. O.K. - great. But what does THAT mean? Being a "champion" should be something special. Do you think if you asked all professional baseball players if they thought a AAA minor league championship meant as much as a world series title they'd all say yes? Is it fair to have schools with an enrollment of 350 competing against schools with an enrollment of 3000? Of course not. But, who ever said life was fair? I don't mean to be cruel, but what exactly do we want to teach children? Do you think when you go out into the real world and are competing for an engineering job with someone with a degree from MIT and you've got your degree from a small college with a not too good reputation for engineering, they are really going to care that "oh, we're smaller, not as good, but we try hard?"

Let's go back to everybody competing on one level. Do you really think the USA hockey gold medal in 1980 would have felt as good as it did if there were an Olympic "A" class and an Olympic "AA" class?

IMHO

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!! We have a winner!!!!!

[PuckU126]

You could solve all this by going back to one class. Look at the flip side - why don't we have 8 different classes - then every varsity player could say they played in a state tournament. O.K. - great. But what does THAT mean? Being a "champion" should be something special. Do you think if you asked all professional baseball players if they thought a AAA minor league championship meant as much as a world series title they'd all say yes? Is it fair to have schools with an enrollment of 350 competing against schools with an enrollment of 3000? Of course not. But, who ever said life was fair? I don't mean to be cruel, but what exactly do we want to teach children? Do you think when you go out into the real world and are competing for an engineering job with someone with a degree from MIT and you've got your degree from a small college with a not too good reputation for engineering, they are really going to care that "oh, we're smaller, not as good, but we try hard?"

Let's go back to everybody competing on one level. Do you really think the USA hockey gold medal in 1980 would have felt as good as it did if there were an Olympic "A" class and an Olympic "AA" class?

IMHO

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!! We have a winner!!!!!

Wouldn't work with this many teams.

The system we have now is working. It would be dumb to pick at it.

[HShockeywatcher]

The system we have now is working. It would be dumb to pick at it.

While I agree, to a point, most would disagree with you...

[luckyEPDad]

The system we have now is working. It would be dumb to pick at it.

While I agree, to a point, most would disagree with you...

Depends on how you define "working". Its definitely not working for those who feel a need for a single state champion. Has it prevented the death of small school HS hockey? Does anyone have some numbers for that?

[PuckU126]

The system we have now is working. It would be dumb to pick at it.

While I agree, to a point, most would disagree with you...

Of course.

There are flaws in the current system; however, all systems will have flaws.

[PuckU126]

The system we have now is working. It would be dumb to pick at it.

While I agree, to a point, most would disagree with you...

Depends on how you define "working". Its definitely not working for those who feel a need for a single state champion. Has it prevented the death of small school HS hockey? Does anyone have some numbers for that?

I doubt a single state champion will ever happen again in High School hockey; those people are just going to have to get use to it. It's usually safe to say the AA champion is the best in state... usually.

As for preventing the death of small school HS hockey, I think the system does work in their benefit and is more of a incentive by providing a more "level" playing field. As for the numbers, I have none, but I am sure someone can enlighten us with their perspective.

[DKS1962]

A hockey was established to allow smaller schools an opportunity to compete at the state level against similar competition.
College degree analogy: A schools may have 1 MIT grad, several college grads and several kids that are lucky if they complete high school. AA schools have 5 MIT grads and the rest are solid college grads.
Olympics Analogy: It's called "Miracle on Ice" for a reason. Same if an A school won a single class state tournament.
We have enough talent and teams in MN to support a 2 class hockey tournament.
My opinion: The top private schools should compete at the AA level. St Thomas had 90 kids from all over the metro try out for their varsity. Most of them "MIT" grads. I don't know of an out state A program that has that many local kids trying out for their high school team.
St Thomas defeats what the MSHSL was trying to establish with A hockey.

[OnFrozenPond]

A hockey was established to allow smaller schools an opportunity to compete at the state level against similar competition.
College degree analogy: A schools may have 1 MIT grad, several college grads and several kids that are lucky if they complete high school. AA schools have 5 MIT grads and the rest are solid college grads.
Olympics Analogy: It's called "Miracle on Ice" for a reason. Same if an A school won a single class state tournament.
We have enough talent and teams in MN to support a 2 class hockey tournament.
My opinion: The top private schools should compete at the AA level. St Thomas had 90 kids from all over the metro try out for their varsity. Most of them "MIT" grads. I don't know of an out state A program that has that many local kids trying out for their high school team.
St Thomas defeats what the MSHSL was trying to establish with A hockey.

Enrollment figures for Private Schools are irrelevant. They should place all Private Schools in AA and let them petition the MSHSL to opt down to class A rather than the other way around. That way you force the hand of the power houses like STA and Breck, but also have some leeway for Privates that don't have strong programs. With only a two year commitment, no school will be misplaced for very long.

[High Flyer]

St Thomas had 90 kids from all over the metro try out for their varsity. Most of them "MIT" grads.

fact or speculation?

[DKS1962]

I spoke with a Cadet at the State tournament. He told me 90 kids tried out
for the high school team and he didn't make it.
It may not be true.

[DKS1962]

I spoke with a Cadet at the State tournament. He told me 90 kids tried out
for the high school team and he didn't make it.
It may not be true.

[defense]

Even if St. Thomas Academy had 40 or50 try out, it would still be more than the vast majority of Class A teams. Besides the fact that I would assume that there would be a much higher percentage of "varstity" quality players in that 40 or 50 than would be at..say... Red Wing, or even Warroad....Definitely places like Little Falls.
This, however does not change my opinion that St. Thomas Academy is perfectly fine playing hockey in Class A. I was and still am of the opinion that Championships are a special thing. Something to be cherrished. Something to work hard for, something that doesn't happen in a snap. It may take years and years of developing a program before it will produce a championship caliber team, and even then there is no promises.
These private prep schools have advantages over the public schools no doubt. They can get the players they want. Their coaches can coach the same year in and year out because they can get the "right" players. In a public school this is less true.
My opinion is and will always be the same though. Private schools who are put into class A are put there under the same rules as everyone else.
I just think of how special it will be the outstate class a public school I cheer for beats one of the prep schools to go to the championship game...

[MrBoDangles]

Even if St. Thomas Academy had 40 or50 try out, it would still be more than the vast majority of Class A teams. Besides the fact that I would assume that there would be a much higher percentage of "varstity" quality players in that 40 or 50 than would be at..say... Red Wing, or even Warroad....Definitely places like Little Falls.
This, however does not change my opinion that St. Thomas Academy is perfectly fine playing hockey in Class A. I was and still am of the opinion that Championships are a special thing. Something to be cherrished. Something to work hard for, something that doesn't happen in a snap. It may take years and years of developing a program before it will produce a championship caliber team, and even then there is no promises.
These private prep schools have advantages over the public schools no doubt. They can get the players they want. Their coaches can coach the same year in and year out because they can get the "right" players. In a public school this is less true.
My opinion is and will always be the same though. Private schools who are put into class A are put there under the same rules as everyone else.
I just think of how special it will be the outstate class a public school I cheer for beats one of the prep schools to go to the championship game...

Community programs work hard to develop championship caliber teams............ You say that STA had to work hard (only a little easier)?

[defense]

Even if St. Thomas Academy had 40 or50 try out, it would still be more than the vast majority of Class A teams. Besides the fact that I would assume that there would be a much higher percentage of "varstity" quality players in that 40 or 50 than would be at..say... Red Wing, or even Warroad....Definitely places like Little Falls.
This, however does not change my opinion that St. Thomas Academy is perfectly fine playing hockey in Class A. I was and still am of the opinion that Championships are a special thing. Something to be cherrished. Something to work hard for, something that doesn't happen in a snap. It may take years and years of developing a program before it will produce a championship caliber team, and even then there is no promises.
These private prep schools have advantages over the public schools no doubt. They can get the players they want. Their coaches can coach the same year in and year out because they can get the "right" players. In a public school this is less true.
My opinion is and will always be the same though. Private schools who are put into class A are put there under the same rules as everyone else.
I just think of how special it will be the outstate class a public school I cheer for beats one of the prep schools to go to the championship game...

Community programs work hard to develop championship caliber teams............ You say that STA had to work hard (only a little easier)?

What????????????
No, I said that STA had numerous advantages.....just the same as an Edina or Minnetonka or Moorhead has advantages in numbers.... So the class A schools ran away from the big numbers of the largest public schools....Now, the opinion seems to be, we should take out these programs as well because some of them are exploiting it.... I say let them exploit it if they want to. At least with them in the class a tournement, teh class A teams can salvage some form of integrity....
When the private schools start dominating AA, the same things will be said. Then people will be wanting them back out of the MSHSL....

[Jimbo99]

Then people will be wanting them back out of the MSHSL....

NOW we're talking!! Ahhh, the good ol' days.

[MrBoDangles]

Even if St. Thomas Academy had 40 or50 try out, it would still be more than the vast majority of Class A teams. Besides the fact that I would assume that there would be a much higher percentage of "varstity" quality players in that 40 or 50 than would be at..say... Red Wing, or even Warroad....Definitely places like Little Falls.
This, however does not change my opinion that St. Thomas Academy is perfectly fine playing hockey in Class A. I was and still am of the opinion that Championships are a special thing. Something to be cherrished. Something to work hard for, something that doesn't happen in a snap. It may take years and years of developing a program before it will produce a championship caliber team, and even then there is no promises.
These private prep schools have advantages over the public schools no doubt. They can get the players they want. Their coaches can coach the same year in and year out because they can get the "right" players. In a public school this is less true.
My opinion is and will always be the same though. Private schools who are put into class A are put there under the same rules as everyone else.
I just think of how special it will be the outstate class a public school I cheer for beats one of the prep schools to go to the championship game...

"something doesn't happen in a snap" - It did for STA
"May take years to develop a championship caliber team" - STA did it in a couple years by making some business moves.
"Championships are a special thing" - Yes, they are!!!!!
"Something to be cherrished" - Yes, and this opportunity is being stolen away from the small communities by the faculty cowards of STA......

STA Hockey is a scam.

[Oldtimehockeyguy23]

I spoke with a Cadet at the State tournament. He told me 90 kids tried out
for the high school team and he didn't make it.
It may not be true.

haha there is no way 90 tried out. huge AA schools only get 60 to try out (wayzata minnetonka, EP) maybe maybe STA got 40 but really who cares how many try out?

[BodyShots]

Do they teach these CADETS any class at that school, or does it have to come strickly from home? Two weeks in a row, I've sat at church behind two high school kids with St. Thomas letter jackets. When the priest offers everybody to show their sign of peace, these two kids shake mommy and daddy's hand, but nobody else. If it happens again next week, should I (DENOZO them) and slap them on the back of the head?

[Oldtimehockeyguy23]

Do they teach these CADETS any class at that school, or does it have to come strickly from home? Two weeks in a row, I've sat at church behind two high school kids with St. Thomas letter jackets. When the priest offers everybody to show their sign of peace, these two kids shake mommy and daddy's hand, but nobody else. If it happens again next week, should I (DENOZO them) and slap them on the back of the head?

hahaha

[defense]

I would guess they are just insecure high school kids....just my opinion..

[HShockeywatcher]

Then people will be wanting them back out of the MSHSL....

NOW we're talking!! Ahhh, the good ol' days.

I doubt that would be a good thing. They were play schedules twice as long and almost all would attract better talent.

"Something to be cherrished" - Yes, and this opportunity is being stolen away from the small communities by the faculty cowards of STA......

STA Hockey is a scam.

This thinking makes little sense to me. By leaving a community to play for a private school, what are you doing? You are creating roster spots on other teams. I remember a few years ago now that a whole bunch (60-70 boys tried out) of guys transferred to a private school in Richfield and there were guys who had played the previous season who didn't make the team. Many had to play elsewhere. Think of how many spots on teams around the the metro this created for other teams.

A hockey was established to allow smaller schools an opportunity to compete at the state level against similar competition.

I would be curious to hear from someone who knows, exactly, why multiple classes were formed. I can't think of another sport with many teams that is one class. I would guess it was part of the same rational there for having multiple classes in all sports; whatever that is exactly.

Are you saying that everyone who makes it to state is of similar ability? Warroad has an enrollment of 318 and New Ulm+New Ulm Cathedral is 747. Ultimately enrollment doesn't determine ability, as we've all heard many say, any it is two classes with the top enrollments and the bottom.

How about the top half of schools are up, the bottom half are down, and if someone wants to move up, someone has to move down? That would get St Thomas up. No one else, but it would solve this issue...

[MrBoDangles]

Then people will be wanting them back out of the MSHSL....

NOW we're talking!! Ahhh, the good ol' days.

I doubt that would be a good thing. They were play schedules twice as long and almost all would attract better talent.

"Something to be cherrished" - Yes, and this opportunity is being stolen away from the small communities by the faculty cowards of STA......

STA Hockey is a scam.

This thinking makes little sense to me. By leaving a community to play for a private school, what are you doing? You are creating roster spots on other teams. I remember a few years ago now that a whole bunch (60-70 boys tried out) of guys transferred to a private school in Richfield and there were guys who had played the previous season who didn't make the team. Many had to play elsewhere. Think of how many spots on teams around the the metro this created for other teams.

A hockey was established to allow smaller schools an opportunity to compete at the state level against similar competition.

I would be curious to hear from someone who knows, exactly, why multiple classes were formed. I can't think of another sport with many teams that is one class. I would guess it was part of the same rational there for having multiple classes in all sports; whatever that is exactly.

Are you saying that everyone who makes it to state is of similar ability? Warroad has an enrollment of 318 and New Ulm+New Ulm Cathedral is 747. Ultimately enrollment doesn't determine ability, as we've all heard many say, any it is two classes with the top enrollments and the bottom.

How about the top half of schools are up, the bottom half are down, and if someone wants to move up, someone has to move down? That would get St Thomas up. No one else, but it would solve this issue...

Did you have a brain injury? What don't you understand? You are saying that community based hockey programs should be happy to lose their top players so other kids can play Hockey??????????????? Are you out of your mind? What happens to the boys out of your 60-70 that don't make it in the private school tryouts? What high school do they play for that year?

You are losing credibility faster than your sandbagging STA team.

[HShockeywatcher]

[
Did you have a brain injury? What don't you understand? You are saying that community based hockey programs should be happy to lose their top players so other kids can play Hockey??????????????? Are you out of your mind? What happens to the boys out of your 60-70 that don't make it in the private school tryouts? What high school do they play for that year?

You are losing credibility faster than your sandbagging STA team.

I know you have selective reading, but at least try to pay attention. I don't think any program should be happy when a player goes elsewhere, but I also think they should fight to keep them instead of simply claim the player needs to be "loyal."

So you don't want kids to leave, but when they do they are somehow entitled to play high school hockey somewhere? Some of them played Jr Gold and others hung up their skates. If you're not good enough to play, you don't.

Basically what you're saying is that the smaller class was created so undeserving teams from small communities can make the state tournament. If this were the case and private schools were actually "ruining" what the class was created for, then the MSHSL wouldn't allow it. But they do, so I doubt that's the case.
What probably happened was they wanted to allow for two good tournaments and to see more of the state represented at the state level.

[MrBoDangles]

This thinking makes little sense to me. By leaving a community to play for a private school, what are you doing? You are creating roster spots on other teams. I remember a few years ago now that a whole bunch (60-70 boys tried out) of guys transferred to a private school in Richfield and there were guys who had played the previous season who didn't make the team. Many had to play elsewhere. Think of how many spots on teams around the the metro this created for other teams. ~ HSHW


Is it possible to read this any other way?