STA

Older Topics, Not the current discussion

Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)

Should there be a seperate class for private schools

Poll ended at Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:23 pm

Yes
39
57%
No
30
43%
 
Total votes: 69

HShockeywatcher
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:21 pm

Post by HShockeywatcher »

There are a couple D3 baseball programs in MN, and even more in WI, that would probably put together a few (or more) wins yearly were they given a Big Ten schedule. They are absolutely dominant in D3. Does St Thomas doing well at nationals recently mean they should opt up to D2 or D1?

Wis. Whitewater's football program has been to the national championship game the last 5 years (may be longer, but I'm too lazy to find out) and won 3 of them. When I saw a broadcast about the program never did I hear "are you thinking about moving up to D2 or D1?" but instead all I heard was congratulations on how good of a program they have put together. Should they consider moving up?

As for hockey, the same could be said about a couple of the teams in the NCHA as well as other D3 teams out east. St Norbert's, for example, goes to nationals regularly and could handle a low quality D1 schedule. Should they move up?

Obviously the answer to all of these questions is "no." But somehow the answer is different for MN high school hockey.
Marty Moose wrote:Wow. This isn't complicated at all. The perspectives really fall into two camps.

1) STA, and other metro private schools, have significant inherent advantages that allow them to be more successful at hockey. These advantages are not available to smaller public schools. STA, or any other school that is readily pursuing those advantages, should voluntarily opt up to play in AA, where there is GENERALLY stronger competition. Anything else is shameful, as they are not honoring the intent of the two-class system.

2) STA, and other metro private schools, have significant inherent advantages that allow them to be more successful at hockey. These advantages are not available to smaller public schools. But that's cool. Any of these schools should be cheered for exploiting these advantages to the fullest. They should try to win as many games and trophies as they can in Class A. That way, they can feel good about themselves and claim that it is all about development, character, etc.

I'm sorry, but the honorable stance on this does not require further elaboration.
#1 is what most public school supporters on here are saying. #2 is basically a mockery of private schools and not actually the way anyone feels.

When it comes down to it (yes karl, I've said part of this before) EVERY state champ in both classes in the last 20 years is either private, from an affluent community or from a hockey community. Hockey is not a cheap sport and is played by those who are well off, or those who it is part of their life, generally. Because of this, a school with 2,000+ may not have that much of an advantage over one of 200, depending on where it's located. Which basically makes
ogelthorpe wrote:
My point is if you had two classes with everybody playing by enrollment you would have two strong classes and then you wouldn't have to have schools opt up to keep the competitive balance.
I've been saying this for years (still am), and every once in a while someone (like you) posts this same thing in agreement. The vast majority of people don't care...why would you want two strong classes when you could have one strong class and one to make fun of? \:D/

If you don't allow opt ups, in most years the A tournament would be stronger than the AA tournament, or at least as strong as.
blueblood
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STA

Post by blueblood »

Can we put this topic to bed, until at least November 14th when tryouts start?
Mite-dad
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Post by Mite-dad »

Actually it comes up in March when a private school again wins the 1A title.
DmanDad1980
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Post by DmanDad1980 »

HSHockeyWatcher... :roll:

Again, let's put this in simple terms for you...

MIAC Baseball & Hockey teams can recruit on an equal basis from the same selection pool...

St. Norberts can recruit and attract hockey players to their D3 school on an equal basis with their peers...

New Ulm cannot recruit kids outside their city limits, Alex cannot recruit kids outside their city limits, and the list goes on and on for all the public schools in this state...

STA can recruit hockey players from all over the Metro, all over the state and even outside the state...

Your college analogy/argument is flawed, makes zero sense, when talking about HS sports...

It is obvious, the playing field is not equal when discussing private vs public schools in high school atheletics, and it is especially apparent in hockey... STA has the right to stay in A, but do they have a clear advantage over nearby publics... Yes... Just go ask Lakeville South this year how much they would have liked to have the kids that grew up there, play there... Lakeville South is one of many examples in this debate... Ask WBL, Stillwater, North St Paul and Woodbury about how they feel about Hill...

STA belongs in AA. It is their choice to stay in A. STA is allowed to recruit their players to their school. STA plays a great regular season AA schedule, they just do not follow that up by playing up in AA Sections and State, where they belong, in AA...
HShockeywatcher
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Post by HShockeywatcher »

DmanDad1980,

I will try to respond to each point you have made and keep it as short as possible.

D3 schools cannot recruit in the same ways D1 schools can. I believe that is one of the main things that separates them into the divisions they are in. D1 schools can offer athletic scholarships, as can D2 schools (although usually not for as much $), while D3 schools cannot. Very different. Because of this, the talent at each level is tiered. For the most part though, the best in the lowest tier could play with or compete with average/below average in the top tier.

You are 100% right that private businesses recruit. You, nor I, have specific examples of private schools violating the rules of how they fill their rosters. If they are breaking any, they should be punished, as should public schools who violate them. The thing certain private schools (and certain public schools) are doing, though, is making their program (and their school) better to appeal to more people.

Instead of asking the people who are still at the communities how they feel after people have left their communities, ask those who have left, why they left. You are correct in that public schools cannot recruit in the way that private schools do, nor should they. What they can, and should do, though, is better their academics, facilities, building, and athletic programs to attract more there. It's how communities grow.

I add this, if there were not a multiplier to count low SE students less, I would be for counting private school students more. Knowing that many private school students receive financial aid though, a "normal" kid at a private school is similar to one at a public school.
observer
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Post by observer »

HSHW

It's time for you to go away on this one and never come back.

You're wrong, the school administrators are wrong and everyone that supports STA staying at single A is wrong.

You're embarassing the players with your silly debating. The school and everyone involved in STA hockey is second class and you're proof.
PuckU126
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Post by PuckU126 »

observer wrote:... the school administrators are wrong and everyone that supports STA staying at single A is wrong.
Bingo. Period. Fin.

How ever you want to say it; that is the bottom line.

If Holy Family can do it, why can't STA?

8)
The Puck
LGW
old goalie85
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Post by old goalie85 »

Lets not forget about STA's buddy Hill. They both need to move to a different conference.
PuckU126
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Post by PuckU126 »

old goalie85 wrote:Lets not forget about STA's buddy Hill. They both need to move to a different conference.
Different story. STA's class situation is the topic at hand.

Plus HM only dominates in hockey in the CSC. No need to change conferences just because of that. They're fine with where they are.

8)
The Puck
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High Flyer
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Post by High Flyer »

observer wrote:The school and everyone involved in STA hockey is second class
Becareful observer, your getting pretty far out there on that limb when you start making statements like this...
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