Saw this over on the MSHSL Facebook Page. Looks like Ohio may make some changes in regards to private schools.
http://www.thecourier.com/Issues/2011/A ... Apr,25&c=s
Changing Landscape of High School Athletics In Ohio
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Also over on the MSHSL Facebook Page, Oklahoma is looking at the private schools.
http://newsok.com/athletic-success-coul ... _click=rss
http://newsok.com/athletic-success-coul ... _click=rss
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karl(east)
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Interesting articles, and also interesting that the MSHSL would post these on their Facebook page.
The solutions appear thoughtful. If Minnesota were to adopt something like the Ohio model, I don't think I'd complain too much. The option they chose is much better than the three they did not. My one doubt: when you take so many unlike things (enrollment, socieconomics, history of success) and try to roll them into single indicator, it begs the question...what on earth are they actually measuring? And how on earth do you weigh those things against one another?
The solutions appear thoughtful. If Minnesota were to adopt something like the Ohio model, I don't think I'd complain too much. The option they chose is much better than the three they did not. My one doubt: when you take so many unlike things (enrollment, socieconomics, history of success) and try to roll them into single indicator, it begs the question...what on earth are they actually measuring? And how on earth do you weigh those things against one another?
State high school athletic leagues are really good at sharing information with each other, I know we in Minnesota modeled our transfer rule on other states, primarily Florida but also Missouri and Wisconsin among others. It also shows our probelms with transfers, privates, enrollments aren't unique.
I also know we in Minnesota have our public/private debates but we here have it pretty good compared to places like Ohio, New Jersey, and California where it's out of hand. 60 Minutes had a piece about a New Jersey basketball program that made Apple Valley wrestling look tame.
It also shows, contrary to some opinions, that things can and do change. Just because Our Holy Savior of the Three Pointer Academy plays in a class consistant with their enrollment, that may not and probably will not be the case in the future.
sports.
It irks me how bad our papers here cover prep sports considering how high our participation numbers are. Nothing but blurbs about the change in classes in football which should have been a major story. Aside from a page on the MSHSL web site which was little more than propaganda. (seriously John your source is the AD from the school who will benefit most by getting Lakeville out of their class? Cripes Lakeville has 200 more kids and you scheduled Wayzata as a non conference game 2 years ago but now have safety concerns?
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I also know we in Minnesota have our public/private debates but we here have it pretty good compared to places like Ohio, New Jersey, and California where it's out of hand. 60 Minutes had a piece about a New Jersey basketball program that made Apple Valley wrestling look tame.
It also shows, contrary to some opinions, that things can and do change. Just because Our Holy Savior of the Three Pointer Academy plays in a class consistant with their enrollment, that may not and probably will not be the case in the future.
sports.
It irks me how bad our papers here cover prep sports considering how high our participation numbers are. Nothing but blurbs about the change in classes in football which should have been a major story. Aside from a page on the MSHSL web site which was little more than propaganda. (seriously John your source is the AD from the school who will benefit most by getting Lakeville out of their class? Cripes Lakeville has 200 more kids and you scheduled Wayzata as a non conference game 2 years ago but now have safety concerns?
)Ohio & Oklahoma
Ohio's proposed plan does seem overly complicated. Illinois and Missouri have a simple multiplier for private schools. In Illinois it is 1.65 and in Missouri it is 1.35. Private school enrollments are mutiplied by those numbers for placements in classes.
If Minnesota took this approach it would seem to affect probably only STA & T-G in hockey. They are the only private schools that are large enough to be moved to AA with this type of formula.
It is interesting that all 3 states rejected proposals to have a seperate state tournament or seperate sections for private schools.
I also agree that Minnesota's issue is very tame compared to many others. For instance the Massachusetts State HS Hockey Tournament (the highest class is called The Super Eight) has been won by Catholic schools 19 out of 21 times. And this tournament does not include 16 Boston-area prep schools that have a seperate tournament and 36 New England-area boarding academies that do their own thing.
If Minnesota took this approach it would seem to affect probably only STA & T-G in hockey. They are the only private schools that are large enough to be moved to AA with this type of formula.
It is interesting that all 3 states rejected proposals to have a seperate state tournament or seperate sections for private schools.
I also agree that Minnesota's issue is very tame compared to many others. For instance the Massachusetts State HS Hockey Tournament (the highest class is called The Super Eight) has been won by Catholic schools 19 out of 21 times. And this tournament does not include 16 Boston-area prep schools that have a seperate tournament and 36 New England-area boarding academies that do their own thing.
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karl(east)
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Another possible solution popped into my head while reading the discussion on affluence on the Warroad coaching thread.
Currently, the MSHSL applies a blanket multiplier to free/reduced lunch students (.25) when figuring school enrollments for classification. They do this because there's a good body of evidence that shows that poorer kids are less likely to participate in sports, meaning these schools' enrollments might not accurately reflect the number of students who actually can participate in sports.
Instead of using the same number for all sports, maybe they should use a different one for different sports. Relatively cheap sports could have a higher number (say, .5), while very expensive ones could have a lower one (.1, for example). I don't know exactly how much of an impact that would have--it definitely wouldn't force Breck into AA, and might not affect St. Thomas--but I figured I'd throw the idea out on the table.
Currently, the MSHSL applies a blanket multiplier to free/reduced lunch students (.25) when figuring school enrollments for classification. They do this because there's a good body of evidence that shows that poorer kids are less likely to participate in sports, meaning these schools' enrollments might not accurately reflect the number of students who actually can participate in sports.
Instead of using the same number for all sports, maybe they should use a different one for different sports. Relatively cheap sports could have a higher number (say, .5), while very expensive ones could have a lower one (.1, for example). I don't know exactly how much of an impact that would have--it definitely wouldn't force Breck into AA, and might not affect St. Thomas--but I figured I'd throw the idea out on the table.
Just for an idea here are some others for football and hockey (FB/H)
Edina ($190/$190)
Eden Prairie ($250/$250)
Grand Rapids ($110/$110)
Lakeville ($275/$600)
Duluth ($225/$450)
Rochester ($190/$220)
EGF ($130/$150)
WBL ($142/$250)
In Lanesboro all sports are free, not coincidently 75% of all students participate in athletics. Wayzata football is $130 which I though was cheap. Most private schools include athletic fees in their tuition.
I kind of like the idea you had Karl, but it got me thinking what is an expensive sport? Hockey in Grand Rapids is cheaper than Cross Country in most places.
Edina ($190/$190)
Eden Prairie ($250/$250)
Grand Rapids ($110/$110)
Lakeville ($275/$600)
Duluth ($225/$450)
Rochester ($190/$220)
EGF ($130/$150)
WBL ($142/$250)
In Lanesboro all sports are free, not coincidently 75% of all students participate in athletics. Wayzata football is $130 which I though was cheap. Most private schools include athletic fees in their tuition.
I kind of like the idea you had Karl, but it got me thinking what is an expensive sport? Hockey in Grand Rapids is cheaper than Cross Country in most places.
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karl(east)
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My thought was that we'd judge that by the rough cost of playing the sport without factoring the activity fees, since those vary so much.goldy313 wrote:I kind of like the idea you had Karl, but it got me thinking what is an expensive sport? Hockey in Grand Rapids is cheaper than Cross Country in most places.
My suspicion is that if a kid is good enough to make the varsity hockey team, a couple hundred extra dollars for an activity fee isn't what's going to break the bank for the family. The real issue is all the equipment and camps all the way up through the youth years and into high school...those are the costs that really deter families from letting their kids play hockey, and the reason we see hockey flourish in Edina and wither and die in Minneapolis. (As far as I understand it.)
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HShockeywatcher
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The biggest issue I have with the private vs public debate is that no one will deny that private schools in general have an inherent advantage over public schools in general, but many private schools do not have advantages over specific public schools. While I doubt I'll win over many on here, I wish the private factor was taken out (or played a lesser role) and the other factors were considered.
For this reason, I really like what Ohio has done. It sounds like what they are doing is being done equally to public and private schools.
The question about it that I have, though, is that using socioeconomic status and sport specific tradition, could a school get put into a class too high for them to continue the success they had at a lower level?
The second "fear" I'd have is that it would become too tiered.
I don't really like the Oklahoma plan because it is not sport specific; a "hockey school" would have to opt up in" all sports. That being said, I like the "15-mile radius of a 5A or 6A school" (although I think it should be "two or more" instead of "a"). Small, rural private schools would not be penalized simply for being private.
Both plans seem to say that success at one level implies success at another.
The root of the debate that I disagree with is the hinder those who are good instead of improving what we have.
Great reads; any solution should be sport specific.
For this reason, I really like what Ohio has done. It sounds like what they are doing is being done equally to public and private schools.
The question about it that I have, though, is that using socioeconomic status and sport specific tradition, could a school get put into a class too high for them to continue the success they had at a lower level?
The second "fear" I'd have is that it would become too tiered.
I don't really like the Oklahoma plan because it is not sport specific; a "hockey school" would have to opt up in" all sports. That being said, I like the "15-mile radius of a 5A or 6A school" (although I think it should be "two or more" instead of "a"). Small, rural private schools would not be penalized simply for being private.
Both plans seem to say that success at one level implies success at another.
The root of the debate that I disagree with is the hinder those who are good instead of improving what we have.
Great reads; any solution should be sport specific.