Friends don't let Friends...

[AlterEagle]

...play hockey anywhere besides MSHSL...

Shattuck wins Tier 1 National Championship this year - final seconds and post game celebration in front of a few hundred???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3oJdQOXYz0

Eden Prairie wins MN State HS tourney - final seconds and post game celebration in front of 18,000 + statewide TV broadcast...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZoTIIMc ... re=related

Stay Home Kids... You could learn a lot from a du-

[EHSHack]

Shattuck is in Minnesota smart guy. But I know what you mean.

[AlterEagle]

Shattuck is in Minnesota smart guy. But I know what you mean.

..smart guy??? the EP video must still sting a little, eh?

[JSR]

...play hockey anywhere besides MSHSL...

Shattuck wins Tier 1 National Championship this year - final seconds and post game celebration in front of a few hundred???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3oJdQOXYz0

Eden Prairie wins MN State HS tourney - final seconds and post game celebration in front of 18,000 + statewide TV broadcast...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZoTIIMc ... re=related

Stay Home Kids... You could learn a lot from a du-

I still don't understand why you guys don;t make it possible for your kids to do both? In Wisconsin kids can play for their high school and play for a state championship but then they can ALSO play for Team Wisconsin which plays in the Elite League in the fall and then plays in the spring for the state AAA title, then if it wins plays in central districts, then if it wins goes on to play for the national championships. Tell me again why Minnesota does not allow this or make this possibel for it's high school players when it is clearly a feasible thing to do and you clearly have the talent, teams, and interest to do so? Make no logical sense to me. What am I missing. It doesn't diminish the state chamionship in the least and it gives them an additional oppoprtunity for the best of the best to compete at a higher level. How is that bad?

[AlterEagle]

...play hockey anywhere besides MSHSL...

Shattuck wins Tier 1 National Championship this year - final seconds and post game celebration in front of a few hundred???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3oJdQOXYz0

Eden Prairie wins MN State HS tourney - final seconds and post game celebration in front of 18,000 + statewide TV broadcast...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZoTIIMc ... re=related

Stay Home Kids... You could learn a lot from a du-

I still don't understand why you guys don;t make it possible for your kids to do both? In Wisconsin kids can play for their high school and play for a state championship but then they can ALSO play for Team Wisconsin which plays in the Elite League in the fall and then plays in the spring for the state AAA title, then if it wins plays in central districts, then if it wins goes on to play for the national championships. Tell me again why Minnesota does not allow this or make this possibel for it's high school players when it is clearly a feasible thing to do and you clearly have the talent, teams, and interest to do so? Make no logical sense to me. What am I missing. It doesn't diminish the state chamionship in the least and it gives them an additional oppoprtunity for the best of the best to compete at a higher level. How is that bad?

...and the can of worms has been re-opened....

[AlterEagle]

...play hockey anywhere besides MSHSL...

Shattuck wins Tier 1 National Championship this year - final seconds and post game celebration in front of a few hundred???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3oJdQOXYz0

Eden Prairie wins MN State HS tourney - final seconds and post game celebration in front of 18,000 + statewide TV broadcast...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZoTIIMc ... re=related

Stay Home Kids... You could learn a lot from a du-

I still don't understand why you guys don;t make it possible for your kids to do both? In Wisconsin kids can play for their high school and play for a state championship but then they can ALSO play for Team Wisconsin which plays in the Elite League in the fall and then plays in the spring for the state AAA title, then if it wins plays in central districts, then if it wins goes on to play for the national championships. Tell me again why Minnesota does not allow this or make this possibel for it's high school players when it is clearly a feasible thing to do and you clearly have the talent, teams, and interest to do so? Make no logical sense to me. What am I missing. It doesn't diminish the state chamionship in the least and it gives them an additional oppoprtunity for the best of the best to compete at a higher level. How is that bad?

...and the can of worms has been re-opened....

I'm not against that idea. I've seen Shattuck play BTW... they were the best of the best in Tier 1... a game between them and EP would have been a great game this year. There is no substance to the claim that Tier 1 is better competition. Tier 1 has many teams and they're not all of the quality of Shattuck, Thunderbirds, Honeybaked. The top talent in MSHSL is just as good as the top for Tier 1.

[JSR]

I still don't understand why you guys don;t make it possible for your kids to do both? In Wisconsin kids can play for their high school and play for a state championship but then they can ALSO play for Team Wisconsin which plays in the Elite League in the fall and then plays in the spring for the state AAA title, then if it wins plays in central districts, then if it wins goes on to play for the national championships. Tell me again why Minnesota does not allow this or make this possibel for it's high school players when it is clearly a feasible thing to do and you clearly have the talent, teams, and interest to do so? Make no logical sense to me. What am I missing. It doesn't diminish the state chamionship in the least and it gives them an additional oppoprtunity for the best of the best to compete at a higher level. How is that bad?

...and the can of worms has been re-opened....

I'm not against that idea. I've seen Shattuck play BTW... they were the best of the best in Tier 1... a game between them and EP would have been a great game this year. There is no substance to the claim that Tier 1 is better competition. Tier 1 has many teams and they're not all of the quality of Shattuck, Thunderbirds, Honeybaked. The top talent in MSHSL is just as good as the top for Tier 1.

You are right that not all AAA MM teams are all the quality of SSM, but there are a good 30 of them that are and I would also argue there are not 30 MSHSL teams that are that quality, there are some but not that many, so to truly do it correctly and within the "bounds" of the Tier 1 nationals intent I think you'd probably need to represent with your Elite League teams somehow.

Why doesn't MN take their 5 Elite league teams (or whatever it is) and playoff against SSM for the state title, then allow that team to represent MN in that district and then likely in Nationals. Just like Team Wisconsin plays the Capitols, Jr Admirals and Jr Gamblers for the WI state Tier 1 title (after HS state tourney is done and over) and then the winner of that represents WI in the Central District playoffs and the winner there goes to nationals. I think it would be great personally to that. I don't see how it would diminish anything about the culture up there, would not diminsh HS hockey or the state tourney, just a nice "after" season opportunity no differently than the Elite League is a nice "before" season opportunity.

[AlterEagle]

...and the can of worms has been re-opened....

I'm not against that idea. I've seen Shattuck play BTW... they were the best of the best in Tier 1... a game between them and EP would have been a great game this year. There is no substance to the claim that Tier 1 is better competition. Tier 1 has many teams and they're not all of the quality of Shattuck, Thunderbirds, Honeybaked. The top talent in MSHSL is just as good as the top for Tier 1.

You are right that not all AAA MM teams are all the quality of SSM, but there are a good 30 of them that are and I would also argue there are not 30 MSHSL teams that are that quality, there are some but not that many, so to truly do it correctly and within the "bounds" of the Tier 1 nationals intent I think you'd probably need to represent with your Elite League teams somehow.

Why doesn't MN take their 5 Elite league teams (or whatever it is) and playoff against SSM for the state title, then allow that team to represent MN in that district and then likely in Nationals. Just like Team Wisconsin plays the Capitols, Jr Admirals and Jr Gamblers for the WI state Tier 1 title (after HS state tourney is done and over) and then the winner of that represents WI in the Central District playoffs and the winner there goes to nationals. I think it would be great personally to that. I don't see how it would diminish anything about the culture up there, would not diminsh HS hockey or the state tourney, just a nice "after" season opportunity no differently than the Elite League is a nice "before" season opportunity.

Can you tell me how you arrived at Tier 1 having "30" teams that are of same level as Shattuck?

As far as why the HS teams don't go on to nationals - I'm not sure why. Perhaps someone can shed light on that... the trip would have to be funded by the school district maybe and I'm sure they don't want to be responsible for the liabilities?? Just thoughts...

[MoreCowBell]

Comparing SSM to MN HS hockey is apples and oranges, a lot of the good players at SSM never stay at the school long enough to play on the prep team, if they did a high school team wouldn't touch them. They go off to Ann Arbor, Canadian Jr's or USHL. Cammaretta and MacKinnon most likely will be gone.

[O-townClown]

Minnesota HS hockey is not part of USA Hockey, so it would be hard to send the team anywhere.

[AlterEagle]

Comparing SSM to MN HS hockey is apples and oranges, a lot of the good players at SSM never stay at the school long enough to play on the prep team, if they did a high school team wouldn't touch them. They go off to Ann Arbor, Canadian Jr's or USHL. Cammaretta and MacKinnon most likely will be gone.

Considering many MN HS players go to Ann Arbor and USHL as well - we're pretty much back to comparing apples. And Cammaratta is a MN product btw - not high school obviously, but he grew up playing Minnesota Youth Hockey (aside from a stint at Fire).

[JSR]

I'm not against that idea. I've seen Shattuck play BTW... they were the best of the best in Tier 1... a game between them and EP would have been a great game this year. There is no substance to the claim that Tier 1 is better competition. Tier 1 has many teams and they're not all of the quality of Shattuck, Thunderbirds, Honeybaked. The top talent in MSHSL is just as good as the top for Tier 1.

You are right that not all AAA MM teams are all the quality of SSM, but there are a good 30 of them that are and I would also argue there are not 30 MSHSL teams that are that quality, there are some but not that many, so to truly do it correctly and within the "bounds" of the Tier 1 nationals intent I think you'd probably need to represent with your Elite League teams somehow.

Why doesn't MN take their 5 Elite league teams (or whatever it is) and playoff against SSM for the state title, then allow that team to represent MN in that district and then likely in Nationals. Just like Team Wisconsin plays the Capitols, Jr Admirals and Jr Gamblers for the WI state Tier 1 title (after HS state tourney is done and over) and then the winner of that represents WI in the Central District playoffs and the winner there goes to nationals. I think it would be great personally to that. I don't see how it would diminish anything about the culture up there, would not diminsh HS hockey or the state tourney, just a nice "after" season opportunity no differently than the Elite League is a nice "before" season opportunity.

Can you tell me how you arrived at Tier 1 having "30" teams that are of same level as Shattuck?

As far as why the HS teams don't go on to nationals - I'm not sure why. Perhaps someone can shed light on that... the trip would have to be funded by the school district maybe and I'm sure they don't want to be responsible for the liabilities?? Just thoughts...

I came to that conclusion based on a few things. For one just take a look at the final season rankings and who compromises the top 30, and just use logic of what you know about those teams, I think you forget there are something like 113 Tier 1 AAA MM teams in the USA out there and it's easy to forget quite a few are quite good:

http://myhockeyrankings.com/rank.php?a=1&v=118

SSM may have won it all but it's not like they were just heads and shoulders above everyone else. Then consider a team like Team Wisconsin finished 4th in those rankings and split their two games with SSM head to head, then consdier the 57th ranked Madison Capitols took TW to a SO in the state tourney. SSM was a great and deserving champ but if you think there is a huge difference between the #1 team and #30 team in Tier 1 AAA MM I would have to disagree with you there big time.

As for your other question, H.S. are not USA Hockey sanctioned programs as someone else mentioend so you could not send your H.S. champ to districts or nationals which is why I said you would use the Elite League teams which are USA Hockey sanctioned teams and could potentialy be entered.

And in case someone miscontrues this, I am not saying AAA Tier 1 is better than your H.S. model in MN, not even close, in fact I love H.S. hockey. Just making the point that Tier 1 is pretty deep with talented teams, as it should be considering how it is comprised.

[keepyourheadup]

Someone mentioned this was apples and oranges, I couldn't agree more. First, tier one is made up of almost entirely 93 and 92 birthdates. MN HS includes many kids all the way to the 95 birthyear.

Secondly, to take a bunch of kids and through them together at the end of the season..no matter what their ability...and play teams that have practiced together for a whole year makes it hard to make a fair comparison. This is why team Canada struggled with those great soviet teams for so long. During the Elite league season I watched team SE play SSM three times. They lost by one and won by one at SSM and smoked them 5-0 on a neutral site. In my opinion if you made one team out of all participants from MN in the elite league and then practiced and played a full season they would have whipped up on SSM pretty good.

No doubt Tier 1 is good hockey and I suspect that the number of quality teams out there is far greater than the average MN fan realizes. As far as MN not fielding a team for nationals its the MSHSL rules that make this difficult.

P.S. Someone also mentioned that SSM has many of their best players leave prior to joining the prep team. This is true but don't discount the number who show up at SSM to play exclusively for the prep team. Toews, Parise, Crosby and Stafford are just a start. More careers at SSM end prior to the prep team than many people realize.

[JSR]

Someone mentioned this was apples and oranges, I couldn't agree more. First, tier one is made up of almost entirely 93 and 92 birthdates. MN HS includes many kids all the way to the 95 birthyear.

Secondly, to take a bunch of kids and through them together at the end of the season..no matter what their ability...and play teams that have practiced together for a whole year makes it hard to make a fair comparison. This is why team Canada struggled with those great soviet teams for so long. During the Elite league season I watched team SE play SSM three times. They lost by one and won by one at SSM and smoked them 5-0 on a neutral site. In my opinion if you made one team out of all participants from MN in the elite league and then practiced and played a full season they would have whipped up on SSM pretty good.

No doubt Tier 1 is good hockey and I suspect that the number of quality teams out there is far greater than the average MN fan realizes. As far as MN not fielding a team for nationals its the MSHSL rules that make this difficult.

P.S. Someone also mentioned that SSM has many of their best players leave prior to joining the prep team. This is true but don't discount the number who show up at SSM to play exclusively for the prep team. Toews, Parise, Crosby and Stafford are just a start. More careers at SSM end prior to the prep team than many people realize.

I know this. Wisconsin started retaining more kids in it's H.S. programs once they allowed Team Wisconsin to participate in the AAA post season state and national tournamens. Less kids lost to AAA MM and Juniors by a significant margin compared to previous years. The interest from scouts when a team makes it to nationals is actually pretty phenominal. Kids on TW who didn't get looks previously are all of a sudden on the map everywhere when their team makes nationals and not just the U18 MM team, same goes for teh U16 mm team that they field in it, actually it's almost more so for the U16 team. MN gets plenty of opportunity for gets to get scouted I realize but still, I just don't get why they don;t offer the option is all.

[breakout]

Minnesota HS hockey is not part of USA Hockey, so it would be hard to send the team anywhere.

Exactly.

IMO, Minnesota hockey is 2nd to none. We have a great balance of community hockey and off season AAA hockey if players choose to go that direction. Elite League and Elite Development League give the MN high school players with loftier goals get the extra games in. The number of scouts in the stands and the draft choices that typically come out of this state demonstrate the quality of Minnesota hockey.

The attendance at the State Tournament and T.V. viewership screams ..... do NOT fix what isn't broken!

For those that can afford/justify 35K for hockey plus parent expenses ..... enjoy. Congrats to SSM.

[itsmorefun]

I don't get it... There are so many people on this board who rip on Shattuck or Tier One teams who have NEVER had a kid play for either. If you don't have a kid who has played in these leagues than you can't really have a valid argument, can you? There are many different reasons families choose what they do and it's really nobody's business.

I have so many things to say, I don't even know where to start... so I'll just start rambling:


I can speak to this because I have a son who spent several years playing association hockey in MN, another several years playing Tier One hockey and another couple of years playing Shattuck hockey. He is one of the few who has experienced all of it. He loved it. I loved it and wouldn't change one thing about the decisions we made along the way. The memories are priceless.

Yes... MN has a couple of good teams. But that's not enough. Not everyone has the chance to play for Eden Prairie, Edina, or Hill Murray. People should have a choice... and MN doesn't really let them make a choice without some sort of backlash. By the way...Not everyone cares about the state tournament - few teams actually make it and it seems to be pretty close to the same that make it every year. When was the last time Waconia was in it? or maybe Red Wing? How about Sartell? If you're not from one of the same ol' same ol' schools, you're pretty much screwed.

Heres my last plug... with the amount of players that MN Youth hockey enrolls, MN should have a hell of a lot more kids who "make it", than they do. I agree that MN has a few who actually do, but percentage wise... it's actually quite pathetic. MN needs to do a better job.

Ok.. I'm done. I'm sure I'll hear the same ol cliche responses. But maybe... just maybe... one time, someone on this board would actually ask some questions to better understand why families choose what they do instead of always ripping on others choices.

What do you want to know?

[O-townClown]

Heres my last plug... with the amount of players that MN Youth hockey enrolls, MN should have a hell of a lot more kids who "make it", than they do. I agree that MN has a few who actually do, but percentage wise... it's actually quite pathetic. MN needs to do a better job.

Minnesota is over-represented if you go by Division I college players or NHL draft picks.

Pathetic?

Hardly.

[itsmorefun]

[quote="O-townClown"][quote="itsmorefun"]Heres my last plug... with the amount of players that MN Youth hockey enrolls, MN should have a hell of a lot more kids who "make it", than they do. I agree that MN has a few who actually do, but percentage wise... it's actually quite pathetic. MN needs to do a better job.[/quote]

Minnesota is over-represented if you go by Division I college players or NHL draft picks.

Pathetic?

Hardly.[/quote]

We should... we enroll something like 58,000 kids in youth hockey across the state. What I believe is that our top kids aren't being as developed as much as they could be. We produce a lot of VERY GOOD hockey players... just not enough GREAT hockey players. Many of those VERY GOOD hockey players might have the chance to be GREAT if we allowed them the opportunity to grow.

[The Best in the Bizz3]

Someone mentioned this was apples and oranges, I couldn't agree more. First, tier one is made up of almost entirely 93 and 92 birthdates. MN HS includes many kids all the way to the 95 birthyear.

Secondly, to take a bunch of kids and through them together at the end of the season..no matter what their ability...and play teams that have practiced together for a whole year makes it hard to make a fair comparison. This is why team Canada struggled with those great soviet teams for so long. During the Elite league season I watched team SE play SSM three times. They lost by one and won by one at SSM and smoked them 5-0 on a neutral site. In my opinion if you made one team out of all participants from MN in the elite league and then practiced and played a full season they would have whipped up on SSM pretty good.

No doubt Tier 1 is good hockey and I suspect that the number of quality teams out there is far greater than the average MN fan realizes. As far as MN not fielding a team for nationals its the MSHSL rules that make this difficult.

P.S. Someone also mentioned that SSM has many of their best players leave prior to joining the prep team. This is true but don't discount the number who show up at SSM to play exclusively for the prep team. Toews, Parise, Crosby and Stafford are just a start. More careers at SSM end prior to the prep team than many people realize.

If you want to be technical, Shane Gersich and Keegan Iverson are 96's

[Wildcathcky]

We should... we enroll something like 58,000 kids in youth hockey across the state. What I believe is that our top kids aren't being as developed as much as they could be. We produce a lot of VERY GOOD hockey players... just not enough GREAT hockey players. Many of those VERY GOOD hockey players might have the chance to be GREAT if we allowed them the opportunity to grow.

I agree that Minnesota Hockey hasn't done a good job developing the top end players. The focus seems to be on developing the middle tier kids and retaining the lower level players. These are valid goals, but there should also be attention paid to meeting the needs of potentially elite players.

MN Hockey's current approach is somewhat analagous to what happens in a many large elementary school classrooms at public schools. The kids who have learning issues or behavioral problems get a lot of attention. The daily curriculum and work is aimed primarily at the kids in the middle. The high achievers who behave in class are appreciated by the teacher but generally don't get much "developmental" attention. The teachers don't have the time or energy to focus on way to challenge and further develop those high achieving students.

In the school setting, many of the high achievers who have the financial means end up going to private schools where they will be challenged. I'm afraid we may see the same thing happen in MN Hockey if MN Hockey and the high school programs don't find a way to help further develop the top end players. There are many people who would love to "privatize" hockey in the state. If that happens, that could spell the demise of quality high school hockey.

[darkhorse]

I don't get it... There are so many people on this board who rip on Shattuck or Tier One teams who have NEVER had a kid play for either. If you don't have a kid who has played in these leagues than you can't really have a valid argument, can you? There are many different reasons families choose what they do and it's really nobody's business.

I have so many things to say, I don't even know where to start... so I'll just start rambling:


I can speak to this because I have a son who spent several years playing association hockey in MN, another several years playing Tier One hockey and another couple of years playing Shattuck hockey. He is one of the few who has experienced all of it. He loved it. I loved it and wouldn't change one thing about the decisions we made along the way. The memories are priceless.

Yes... MN has a couple of good teams. But that's not enough. Not everyone has the chance to play for Eden Prairie, Edina, or Hill Murray. People should have a choice... and MN doesn't really let them make a choice without some sort of backlash. By the way...Not everyone cares about the state tournament - few teams actually make it and it seems to be pretty close to the same that make it every year. When was the last time Waconia was in it? or maybe Red Wing? How about Sartell? If you're not from one of the same ol' same ol' schools, you're pretty much screwed.

Heres my last plug... with the amount of players that MN Youth hockey enrolls, MN should have a hell of a lot more kids who "make it", than they do. I agree that MN has a few who actually do, but percentage wise... it's actually quite pathetic. MN needs to do a better job.

Ok.. I'm done. I'm sure I'll hear the same ol cliche responses. But maybe... just maybe... one time, someone on this board would actually ask some questions to better understand why families choose what they do instead of always ripping on others choices.

What do you want to know?

It's good to hear from someone that can give insight from personal experience. A few questions:

At what age did you decide to leave local association hockey and what were the deciding factors?

Did it ever seem that your son was "missing out" by not playing with the neighborhood kids and were there any drawbacks for him with his friends in school, etc?

I'm not sure how old your son is but after going to SSM have you discussed whether he feels like he missed the traditional high school experience or if he has any regrets?

Did he get a D-I scholarship or was he drafted in the pros? Was all the extra effort, time, and money worth it in the end?

My wife and I discuss the role of sports/activities for our two young children and there's always the perceived backlash that it isn't good to commit so much of their time/effort to any one sport/activity (or sports in general.) We were both in sports/activities as kids and while it consumed my life it's what I loved doing. My best childhood memories come from those experiences and when you hang out with kids that love the same thing it makes it even more fun. Will some kids get burnt out, absolutely. IMO, there's a fine line between pushing to be the best and pushing over the edge and knowing your kid well enough to understand the difference is important.

[karl(east)]

We should... we enroll something like 58,000 kids in youth hockey across the state. What I believe is that our top kids aren't being as developed as much as they could be. We produce a lot of VERY GOOD hockey players... just not enough GREAT hockey players. Many of those VERY GOOD hockey players might have the chance to be GREAT if we allowed them the opportunity to grow.

I agree that Minnesota Hockey hasn't done a good job developing the top end players. The focus seems to be on developing the middle tier kids and retaining the lower level players. These are valid goals, but there should also be attention paid to meeting the needs of potentially elite players.

MN Hockey's current approach is somewhat analagous to what happens in a many large elementary school classrooms at public schools. The kids who have learning issues or behavioral problems get a lot of attention. The daily curriculum and work is aimed primarily at the kids in the middle. The high achievers who behave in class are appreciated by the teacher but generally don't get much "developmental" attention. The teachers don't have the time or energy to focus on way to challenge and further develop those high achieving students.

In the school setting, many of the high achievers who have the financial means end up going to private schools where they will be challenged. I'm afraid we may see the same thing happen in MN Hockey if MN Hockey and the high school programs don't find a way to help further develop the top end players. There are many people who would love to "privatize" hockey in the state. If that happens, that could spell the demise of quality high school hockey.

That just about nails it. MN Hockey is in an awkward position. They've got a very nice community-based model that encourages a ton of participation. There's a large tier of kids playing youth hockey just for fun--a group that simply does not exist in other states. (This is partly why, IMO, the number of Minnesotans in college hockey/the NHL seems smaller than it should be, based on raw numbers...if we let the free market dictate hockey in this state, a lot of these kids wouldn't be playing at all.)

As an organization, MNH owes these kids some loyalty--they are a public entity designed to "treat everyone equally." But if that focus on the bottom neglects the kids on top, they will bolt for better opportunities. The MSHSL is gambling that, through the Elite League and such, they can keep few enough kids from leaving that it doesn't threaten the system. So far, that seems to be working reasonably well, though there's no guarantee. The youth ranks may wind up being a different story; only time will tell.

[JSR]

We should... we enroll something like 58,000 kids in youth hockey across the state. What I believe is that our top kids aren't being as developed as much as they could be. We produce a lot of VERY GOOD hockey players... just not enough GREAT hockey players. Many of those VERY GOOD hockey players might have the chance to be GREAT if we allowed them the opportunity to grow.

I agree that Minnesota Hockey hasn't done a good job developing the top end players. The focus seems to be on developing the middle tier kids and retaining the lower level players. These are valid goals, but there should also be attention paid to meeting the needs of potentially elite players.

MN Hockey's current approach is somewhat analagous to what happens in a many large elementary school classrooms at public schools. The kids who have learning issues or behavioral problems get a lot of attention. The daily curriculum and work is aimed primarily at the kids in the middle. The high achievers who behave in class are appreciated by the teacher but generally don't get much "developmental" attention. The teachers don't have the time or energy to focus on way to challenge and further develop those high achieving students.

In the school setting, many of the high achievers who have the financial means end up going to private schools where they will be challenged. I'm afraid we may see the same thing happen in MN Hockey if MN Hockey and the high school programs don't find a way to help further develop the top end players. There are many people who would love to "privatize" hockey in the state. If that happens, that could spell the demise of quality high school hockey.

That just about nails it. MN Hockey is in an awkward position. They've got a very nice community-based model that encourages a ton of participation. There's a large tier of kids playing youth hockey just for fun--a group that simply does not exist in other states. (This is partly why, IMO, the number of Minnesotans in college hockey/the NHL seems smaller than it should be, based on raw numbers...if we let the free market dictate hockey in this state, a lot of these kids wouldn't be playing at all.)

As an organization, MNH owes these kids some loyalty--they are a public entity designed to "treat everyone equally." But if that focus on the bottom neglects the kids on top, they will bolt for better opportunities. The MSHSL is gambling that, through the Elite League and such, they can keep few enough kids from leaving that it doesn't threaten the system. So far, that seems to be working reasonably well, though there's no guarantee. The youth ranks may wind up being a different story; only time will tell.

I agree..... which is why I ask yet again though, why don't they allow for and extend Elite League teams play to post season (not just before season) and allow those teams to play for/toward the Tier 1 national title a well? It seems to me it would help strengthen the existing model and help insulate it more from the outside threats being mentioned as opposed to weakening it.

[Lowstickside]

a little more rambling...
State Tournament was basically the Rau show. And the kid was great. Fun to watch, I loved the tournament. However, did he ever leave the ice? He was on every power play, penalty kill, and EP rolled what, two lines? 1-2 then 1-2-3. 1-2 then 1-2-3. Throw in the special teams and your EP 3rd liner plays like 2-3 shifts per period. Rau is a great player. He went down and did very well at the end of the season in the USHL playoffs. Put up some serious points. He should have played there all year and let some other kids develop.

Problem with MN hockey; 24 game season allows for 2 lines and a few superstars that never leave the ice. EP H.S. of 4000 and a huge association and you get to HS and watch 4-5 kids log all the ice? Seriously? Is this development? Do you realize how many good kids
are not being developed here in MN. because of this type of system. You can do this because we play 2-3 games per week, and hardly any back to back.

This is not to rip on EP at all. Blaine did the same and I'm not sure their 1st line ever left the ice! This is MN hockey in general starting with the squirts! How many squirt 3rd liners do we leave sitting on the bench most of the year who would have been a great player at age 17? Quite a few is my bet, but we'll never know with this type of system.

[AlterEagle]

a little more rambling...
State Tournament was basically the Rau show. And the kid was great. Fun to watch, I loved the tournament. However, did he ever leave the ice? He was on every power play, penalty kill, and EP rolled what, two lines? 1-2 then 1-2-3. 1-2 then 1-2-3. Throw in the special teams and your EP 3rd liner plays like 2-3 shifts per period. Rau is a great player. He went down and did very well at the end of the season in the USHL playoffs. Put up some serious points. He should have played there all year and let some other kids develop.

Problem with MN hockey; 24 game season allows for 2 lines and a few superstars that never leave the ice. EP H.S. of 4000 and a huge association and you get to HS and watch 4-5 kids log all the ice? Seriously? Is this development? Do you realize how many good kids
are not being developed here in MN. because of this type of system. You can do this because we play 2-3 games per week, and hardly any back to back.

This is not to rip on EP at all. Blaine did the same and I'm not sure their 1st line ever left the ice! This is MN hockey in general starting with the squirts! How many squirt 3rd liners do we leave sitting on the bench most of the year who would have been a great player at age 17? Quite a few is my bet, but we'll never know with this type of system.

Where do I even start.... The majority of this thread has talked about how to keep the best players in our MSHSL system to make our high end output more (in terms of quantity)... and you're talking about getting them to leave??? Wow. Eden Prairie shouldn't have to cater to mediocrity just so someone else can play and get a trophy. Their enrollment is 3,300 (not 4,000) so enough with the over-exaggerations to make a point. And furthermore there have been similar thoughts to the "giving more kids a chance" issue since well before EP (or any other school for that matter) was 3,000+.

And to top it off, most "youth" associations have an equal playing time clause in the bylaws (given there's variations to it) so there's no 3rd line squirts sitting on the bench.