Friends don't let Friends...

[keepyourheadup]

While too many HS programs overplay their top players I'm pretty certain the same thing happens to some degree in tier 1 AAA. I'm just not convinced that the number of players being prevented from developing is as high as you might think. I'm sure all of us can come up with examples of where this occurred but for the most part the best kids and those with the most potential for developing in to good players at the next level are the ones logging all the extra minutes. We just can't have it both ways..ie..expect our best players to stay and then expect coaches to roll three or four lines in order to help players fulfill their potential.

Since the AAA model first hit the scene I've been convinced that that is the direction we'll be going. Between budget constraints and a seemingly limitless need for parents to find better options for young hockey players the HS model is in for a real test. I have followed MN HS hockey for 40 years and will be heart broken if it goes away but in the current environment it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

[MNHockeyFan]

I agree that Minnesota Hockey hasn't done a good job developing the top end players. The focus seems to be on developing the middle tier kids and retaining the lower level players. These are valid goals, but there should also be attention paid to meeting the needs of potentially elite players.

MN Hockey's current approach is somewhat analagous to what happens in a many large elementary school classrooms at public schools. The kids who have learning issues or behavioral problems get a lot of attention. The daily curriculum and work is aimed primarily at the kids in the middle. The high achievers who behave in class are appreciated by the teacher but generally don't get much "developmental" attention. The teachers don't have the time or energy to focus on way to challenge and further develop those high achieving students.

In the school setting, many of the high achievers who have the financial means end up going to private schools where they will be challenged. I'm afraid we may see the same thing happen in MN Hockey if MN Hockey and the high school programs don't find a way to help further develop the top end players. There are many people who would love to "privatize" hockey in the state. If that happens, that could spell the demise of quality high school hockey.

One of the most astute posts I've read here - very well said. So the question then becomes, how should MN Hockey go about developing the high end players so that we produce more of the truly elite players? And how can this be done without forcing parents to spend a ton more money than they already do? The two most obvious answers probably involve:

1. Improved coaching. Not sure how you get there, but unfortunately there are still far too many very good young players who are not being taught the game well enough and challenged enough by their local youth coaches. There is typically a large gap in ability between the most and least talented players on most "A" teams, and the true high end players on most of these teams do not receive the specialized, more advanced instruction they need to reach their full potential at each level. This IMO is the weakest link in the community based model (see Wildcathcky's great analogy to the public elementary classrooms).

2. Improved competition. You can certainly make a case that the high end players are not facing stiff enough competition during the main winter season, both during practice and in games. I certainly would hate to see MN Hockey go the "privatizing" route, but maybe one way to avoid it would be to have a select number of true "elite level" players skate with a district-wide team (or possibly teams that combine several districts) instead of their local association "A" team. These teams would obviously play at a higher level than "A", much like the Elite HS League but this would be during the main winter season. Ideally only the best coaches around (and no parents of players!) would be selected. This idea might not work very well in outstate areas due to travel considerations, but I can't see why it wouldn't work in the greater metro area.

[EHSHack]

Shattuck is in Minnesota smart guy. But I know what you mean.

..smart guy??? the EP video must still sting a little, eh?

Oh good one. Clap clap clap. It is funny how you quickly edited your post to say "MSHSL" and not "Minnesota" like you had it.

[AlterEagle]

Shattuck is in Minnesota smart guy. But I know what you mean.

..smart guy??? the EP video must still sting a little, eh?

Oh good one. Clap clap clap. It is funny how you quickly edited your post to say "MSHSL" and not "Minnesota" like you had it.

I changed it for those who need help with the obvious...

[karl(east)]

I agree..... which is why I ask yet again though, why don't they allow for and extend Elite League teams play to post season (not just before season) and allow those teams to play for/toward the Tier 1 national title a well? It seems to me it would help strengthen the existing model and help insulate it more from the outside threats being mentioned as opposed to weakening it.

Someone with more knowledge of the history here might have to answer this one. Why did the MSHSL opt out of USA Hockey to begin with, and are some of those reasons holding back this sort of solution, which sounds appealing to me?

The more I think about this, especially as I read about some of the changes made on the youth side, the more I think MN hockey and the MSHSL are making a very serious effort to prevent "privatization." (They may be separate organizations, but there seems to be an awful lot of cooperation going on.) Since these things are going on behind the scenes, this is all my speculation, but I think the evidence is pretty strong.

[itsmorefun]

I don't get it... There are so many people on this board who rip on Shattuck or Tier One teams who have NEVER had a kid play for either. If you don't have a kid who has played in these leagues than you can't really have a valid argument, can you? There are many different reasons families choose what they do and it's really nobody's business.

I have so many things to say, I don't even know where to start... so I'll just start rambling:


I can speak to this because I have a son who spent several years playing association hockey in MN, another several years playing Tier One hockey and another couple of years playing Shattuck hockey. He is one of the few who has experienced all of it. He loved it. I loved it and wouldn't change one thing about the decisions we made along the way. The memories are priceless.

Yes... MN has a couple of good teams. But that's not enough. Not everyone has the chance to play for Eden Prairie, Edina, or Hill Murray. People should have a choice... and MN doesn't really let them make a choice without some sort of backlash. By the way...Not everyone cares about the state tournament - few teams actually make it and it seems to be pretty close to the same that make it every year. When was the last time Waconia was in it? or maybe Red Wing? How about Sartell? If you're not from one of the same ol' same ol' schools, you're pretty much screwed.

Heres my last plug... with the amount of players that MN Youth hockey enrolls, MN should have a hell of a lot more kids who "make it", than they do. I agree that MN has a few who actually do, but percentage wise... it's actually quite pathetic. MN needs to do a better job.

Ok.. I'm done. I'm sure I'll hear the same ol cliche responses. But maybe... just maybe... one time, someone on this board would actually ask some questions to better understand why families choose what they do instead of always ripping on others choices.

What do you want to know?

It's good to hear from someone that can give insight from personal experience. A few questions:

At what age did you decide to leave local association hockey and what were the deciding factors?

Did it ever seem that your son was "missing out" by not playing with the neighborhood kids and were there any drawbacks for him with his friends in school, etc?

I'm not sure how old your son is but after going to SSM have you discussed whether he feels like he missed the traditional high school experience or if he has any regrets?

Did he get a D-I scholarship or was he drafted in the pros? Was all the extra effort, time, and money worth it in the end?

My wife and I discuss the role of sports/activities for our two young children and there's always the perceived backlash that it isn't good to commit so much of their time/effort to any one sport/activity (or sports in general.) We were both in sports/activities as kids and while it consumed my life it's what I loved doing. My best childhood memories come from those experiences and when you hang out with kids that love the same thing it makes it even more fun. Will some kids get burnt out, absolutely. IMO, there's a fine line between pushing to be the best and pushing over the edge and knowing your kid well enough to understand the difference is important.

At what age did you decide to leave local association hockey and what were the deciding factors? He left as a second year squirt. I've been around hockey my whole life. I saw the drama starting in association hockey as early as Mites. I didn't want that for me or my son. It also drove me crazy that the boys were being coached by guys who couldn't really skate. I'm glad that they stepped up and offered themselves, but I wanted more for my son. We had the opportunity to try something different, so we did. Worked out great. We spent the next five years playing Tier One hockey and loved every minute of it. Very little drama that entire time. Every parent and every kid wanted to be there, wanted to skate hard and wanted to improve. Our coach was completely dedicated to our team and gave us opportunities we never would have had staying in our association.

Did it ever seem that your son was "missing out" by not playing with the neighborhood kids and were there any drawbacks for him with his friends in school, etc? I never have understood this argument. He WAS playing with his friends. These are the kids that held his same passion for the game. When we didn't have hockey, he was playing with his neighborhood friends... he played basketball, baseball, tennis, knee hockey, video games, kickball, etc... all the time. He loved his neighborhood friends. There was never any real problem from his neighborhood friends that he left... mostly just the parents. Today he has friends from all over the country. Imagine his future networking opportunities!

I'm not sure how old your son is but after going to SSM have you discussed whether he feels like he missed the traditional high school experience or if he has any regrets? Absolutely NO regrets. He loves every minute of it. It has all the same things a traditional high school has... it's just better. Shattuck has prom, dances, sporting events, graduation, etc... just like all other schools. For my son... it's been a great choice. He loves the small community atomsphere.

Did he get a D-I scholarship or was he drafted in the pros? Was all the extra effort, time, and money worth it in the end? Yep... completely worth it. The memories are priceless (and college is free).

My wife and I discuss the role of sports/activities for our two young children and there's always the perceived backlash that it isn't good to commit so much of their time/effort to any one sport/activity (or sports in general.) We were both in sports/activities as kids and while it consumed my life it's what I loved doing. My best childhood memories come from those experiences and when you hang out with kids that love the same thing it makes it even more fun. Will some kids get burnt out, absolutely. IMO, there's a fine line between pushing to be the best and pushing over the edge and knowing your kid well enough to understand the difference is important.[/quote]

Just want to be clear with my intent... The choices we made were great choices for us. I don't believe that these are the choices for every kid. I just believe that parents have to make the decision that's best for their family. AND they should be allowed to make those choices.... without any backlash.

Good Luck. You'll make the right choice.

[breakout]

Heres my last plug... with the amount of players that MN Youth hockey enrolls, MN should have a hell of a lot more kids who "make it", than they do. I agree that MN has a few who actually do, but percentage wise... it's actually quite pathetic. MN needs to do a better job.

Minnesota is over-represented if you go by Division I college players or NHL draft picks.

Pathetic?

Hardly.

Exactly!

According to a book I am reading, there were 15,000 people in the stands in 1969 when the Hendry Boucha led Warroad Warriors played Edina in the Minnesota State Hockey Tournament. Duluth East and Eden Prairie had over 15,000 in this year's state tournament championship game. I have been told that our state hockey tournament is 2nd in attendance to Indiana High School Basketball State Tournament. How cool is that?

We have a boat load of NHL, college and Jr. scouts at Elite League games. After the Elite League season the scouts fan out watch Minnesota high school hockey games. They go and watch the best players in the state. When the best of the best play, the cream will rise to the top.

Someone on this bored mentioned that Minnesota Hockey caters to the middle of the road kids and not develop the elite players. What a bunch of crap. The climate has changed. We have the best high school hockey in the nation and the Elite League which develops top players and keeps the majority of the truly elite players from moving on.

For those that don't like the current situation, don't stand on the sidelines and complain. Move to Wisconsin and play for the Fire or Capitals.

[goldy313]

Someone with more knowledge of the history here might have to answer this one. Why did the MSHSL opt out of USA Hockey to begin with, and are some of those reasons holding back this sort of solution, which sounds appealing to me?

The more I think about this, especially as I read about some of the changes made on the youth side, the more I think MN hockey and the MSHSL are making a very serious effort to prevent "privatization." (They may be separate organizations, but there seems to be an awful lot of cooperation going on.) Since these things are going on behind the scenes, this is all my speculation, but I think the evidence is pretty strong.

For high school athletics the governing body is the National Federation of High Schools (NFHS), they make the rule books and regulate officials, although each state can tweek them a bit. All 50 states plus the District of Columbia are members of the NFHS. Not every state association offers every sport; if the state does it is played under NFHS rules and regulations, if it doesn't they can play under whatever rules they so choose. For example the Minnesota High School League offers boys hockey so we play under the umbrella of the NFHS, the Iowa High School Athletic Association doesn't so Iowa plays under USA Hockey. State athletic associations are, generally, more tightly regulated than non state associations i.e. USA Hockey, AAU, USA Wrestling, etc. etc. though American Legion Baseball is a notable exception.

In general under NFHS safety and sportsmanship are valued higher than under other umbrellas where there is more a developmental aspect to the organization. For example in the NFHS there is a defined protocol for concussions, there isn't in USA Hockey.

[Wildcathcky]

Someone on this bored mentioned that Minnesota Hockey caters to the middle of the road kids and not develop the elite players. What a bunch of crap. The climate has changed. We have the best high school hockey in the nation and the Elite League which develops top players and keeps the majority of the truly elite players from moving on.

My comment about catering to the middle of the road kids is a generalization and probably an overstatement of the current situation. However, I know that the association my kids played in has steadily moved toward more of a participation model and put less and less focus on fielding competitive "A" level teams as they had in the past. I believe that many families in middle sized youth hockey associations have the perception that developing top end kids is not a priority in their communities. Regardless of whether it is actually true, there is a growing number of people looking for other options. The growth of summer programs is likely the catalyst for the unrest in winter associations. My prior post wasn't intended as a complaint about the current situation. Rather, I was trying to suggest that MN Hockey may need to look at some other options that will engage the high end kids in order to prevent private companies or others from making inroads in the winter. I want to see kids stay in Minnesota and high school hockey thrive, but it seems like we're at a turning point.

Breakout states that the majority of truly elite players are staying in high school hockey. I'm not sure that's a true statement anymore. While the Elite league and summer hockey has helped retain many high end kids, a large and growing number of the very best no longer finish their high school careers. Many of the very best leave for Ann Arbor, Shattuck's, or junior hockey after their sophomore or junior years. Perhaps implementing a post-high school Team Minnesota model as suggested by JSR would help slow the growth of that trend.

[karl(east)]

Someone with more knowledge of the history here might have to answer this one. Why did the MSHSL opt out of USA Hockey to begin with, and are some of those reasons holding back this sort of solution, which sounds appealing to me?

For high school athletics the governing body is the National Federation of High Schools (NFHS), they make the rule books and regulate officials, although each state can tweek them a bit. All 50 states plus the District of Columbia are members of the NFHS. Not every state association offers every sport; if the state does it is played under NFHS rules and regulations, if it doesn't they can play under whatever rules they so choose. For example the Minnesota High School League offers boys hockey so we play under the umbrella of the NFHS, the Iowa High School Athletic Association doesn't so Iowa plays under USA Hockey. State athletic associations are, generally, more tightly regulated than non state associations i.e. USA Hockey, AAU, USA Wrestling, etc. etc. though American Legion Baseball is a notable exception.

In general under NFHS safety and sportsmanship are valued higher than under other umbrellas where there is more a developmental aspect to the organization. For example in the NFHS there is a defined protocol for concussions, there isn't in USA Hockey.

Thanks, that explains it well. So presumably there is no way JSR's suggestion could work unless the MSHSL drops the NFHS and moves to USA Hockey? If so, that's unfortunate, but based on the MSHSL's mission statement their current choice makes a lot more sense.

Great discussion on this thread--keep it going.

[HShockeywatcher]

Someone mentioned this was apples and oranges, I couldn't agree more. First, tier one is made up of almost entirely 93 and 92 birthdates. MN HS includes many kids all the way to the 95 birthyear.

Secondly, to take a bunch of kids and through them together at the end of the season..no matter what their ability...and play teams that have practiced together for a whole year makes it hard to make a fair comparison. This is why team Canada struggled with those great soviet teams for so long. During the Elite league season I watched team SE play SSM three times. They lost by one and won by one at SSM and smoked them 5-0 on a neutral site. In my opinion if you made one team out of all participants from MN in the elite league and then practiced and played a full season they would have whipped up on SSM pretty good.

No doubt Tier 1 is good hockey and I suspect that the number of quality teams out there is far greater than the average MN fan realizes. As far as MN not fielding a team for nationals its the MSHSL rules that make this difficult.

P.S. Someone also mentioned that SSM has many of their best players leave prior to joining the prep team. This is true but don't discount the number who show up at SSM to play exclusively for the prep team. Toews, Parise, Crosby and Stafford are just a start. More careers at SSM end prior to the prep team than many people realize.

Take a look at the scores of the teams that played them this year. They shut out a good AHA team, beat BSM 3-1 and STA 8-4. What I was told about the STA game is that it was fairly even, but the 20 minute periods for the 1st two periods wore on the players and SSM is more conditioned. I doubt SSM will play many more schools, but I also doubt anyone would get very close with them on a regular basis.

Obviously if you took basically our All-State and had them play together all year, they'd be awesome. No one is arguing that. But comparing current HS teams to SSM is apples and oranges.

[JSR]

Someone with more knowledge of the history here might have to answer this one. Why did the MSHSL opt out of USA Hockey to begin with, and are some of those reasons holding back this sort of solution, which sounds appealing to me?

For high school athletics the governing body is the National Federation of High Schools (NFHS), they make the rule books and regulate officials, although each state can tweek them a bit. All 50 states plus the District of Columbia are members of the NFHS. Not every state association offers every sport; if the state does it is played under NFHS rules and regulations, if it doesn't they can play under whatever rules they so choose. For example the Minnesota High School League offers boys hockey so we play under the umbrella of the NFHS, the Iowa High School Athletic Association doesn't so Iowa plays under USA Hockey. State athletic associations are, generally, more tightly regulated than non state associations i.e. USA Hockey, AAU, USA Wrestling, etc. etc. though American Legion Baseball is a notable exception.

In general under NFHS safety and sportsmanship are valued higher than under other umbrellas where there is more a developmental aspect to the organization. For example in the NFHS there is a defined protocol for concussions, there isn't in USA Hockey.

Thanks, that explains it well. So presumably there is no way JSR's suggestion could work unless the MSHSL drops the NFHS and moves to USA Hockey? If so, that's unfortunate, but based on the MSHSL's mission statement their current choice makes a lot more sense.

Great discussion on this thread--keep it going.

I think we are misunderstanding eachother slightly. I would agree there is no way a HIGH SCHOOL (like Eden Prairie) could ever play for the Tier 1 title and I knew that. Just like our State Champs, Wausau West cannot play for a post season Tier 1 title, BUT several of the players on their team can when they rejoin Team Wisconsin for play after the H.S. state tourne y is over. So why couldn't the Elite League teams do the same? The Elite League is not governed by MSHSL to my knowledge and IS in fact governed by USA Hockey, atleast that is what I understood as it is technically outside the high school strucure (just happens to have all high school players in it).

So again, I don't want you to change anything about yoru high school season or your state tourney. What I am saying is that once H.S. and the state tourney is over, why can't the Elite League teams get back together and play in the post season tourneys toward a national title at the Tier 1 MM and mm levels? Just like Team Wisconsin does. There is a separate state title on the line for Tier 1 in WI than the H.S. state title, totally different things, MN could do the same thing. Does that help clarify things?

[MrBoDangles]

Someone mentioned this was apples and oranges, I couldn't agree more. First, tier one is made up of almost entirely 93 and 92 birthdates. MN HS includes many kids all the way to the 95 birthyear.

Secondly, to take a bunch of kids and through them together at the end of the season..no matter what their ability...and play teams that have practiced together for a whole year makes it hard to make a fair comparison. This is why team Canada struggled with those great soviet teams for so long. During the Elite league season I watched team SE play SSM three times. They lost by one and won by one at SSM and smoked them 5-0 on a neutral site. In my opinion if you made one team out of all participants from MN in the elite league and then practiced and played a full season they would have whipped up on SSM pretty good.

No doubt Tier 1 is good hockey and I suspect that the number of quality teams out there is far greater than the average MN fan realizes. As far as MN not fielding a team for nationals its the MSHSL rules that make this difficult.

P.S. Someone also mentioned that SSM has many of their best players leave prior to joining the prep team. This is true but don't discount the number who show up at SSM to play exclusively for the prep team. Toews, Parise, Crosby and Stafford are just a start. More careers at SSM end prior to the prep team than many people realize.

Take a look at the scores of the teams that played them this year. They shut out a good AHA team, beat BSM 3-1 and STA 8-4. What I was told about the STA game is that it was fairly even, but the 20 minute periods for the 1st two periods wore on the players and SSM is more conditioned. I doubt SSM will play many more schools, but I also doubt anyone would get very close with them on a regular basis.

Obviously if you took basically our All-State and had them play together all year, they'd be awesome. No one is arguing that. But comparing current HS teams to SSM is apples and oranges.

STA played them "fairly even" for the first two periods, but then you doubt anyone else could on a regular basis? If STA can't... No one can? Was the score 8-4 or 6-4?

BSM's depth was really exploited in their game. Their one line was probably better, but didn't have the same conditioning like you said.

I think the Eden Prarie win over BSM was a "8-4" game.

The top 5 to possibly 10 MSHSL teams would be very competitive for TIER 1 national champ SSM.

[JSR]

Someone mentioned this was apples and oranges, I couldn't agree more. First, tier one is made up of almost entirely 93 and 92 birthdates. MN HS includes many kids all the way to the 95 birthyear.

Secondly, to take a bunch of kids and through them together at the end of the season..no matter what their ability...and play teams that have practiced together for a whole year makes it hard to make a fair comparison. This is why team Canada struggled with those great soviet teams for so long. During the Elite league season I watched team SE play SSM three times. They lost by one and won by one at SSM and smoked them 5-0 on a neutral site. In my opinion if you made one team out of all participants from MN in the elite league and then practiced and played a full season they would have whipped up on SSM pretty good.

No doubt Tier 1 is good hockey and I suspect that the number of quality teams out there is far greater than the average MN fan realizes. As far as MN not fielding a team for nationals its the MSHSL rules that make this difficult.

P.S. Someone also mentioned that SSM has many of their best players leave prior to joining the prep team. This is true but don't discount the number who show up at SSM to play exclusively for the prep team. Toews, Parise, Crosby and Stafford are just a start. More careers at SSM end prior to the prep team than many people realize.

Take a look at the scores of the teams that played them this year. They shut out a good AHA team, beat BSM 3-1 and STA 8-4. What I was told about the STA game is that it was fairly even, but the 20 minute periods for the 1st two periods wore on the players and SSM is more conditioned. I doubt SSM will play many more schools, but I also doubt anyone would get very close with them on a regular basis.

Obviously if you took basically our All-State and had them play together all year, they'd be awesome. No one is arguing that. But comparing current HS teams to SSM is apples and oranges.

STA played them "fairly even" for the first two periods, but then you doubt anyone else could on a regular basis? If STA can't... No one can? Was the score 8-4 or 6-4?

BSM's depth was really exploited in their game. Their one line was probably better, but didn't have the same conditioning like you said.

I think the Eden Prarie win over BSM was a "8-4" game.

The top 5 to possibly 10 MSHSL teams would be very competitive for TIER 1 national champ SSM.

You might be right and I am not saying you are wrong. However, single game cases are very tough to really draw anything from in this scenario. The reason being, I am just guessing here, BUT I bet these H.S. teams really get "up" for games against SSM when they are able occur. However, could these high school teams play a 50+ game schedule with virtually every single game being played at that level and then navigate a tournament at the end of the season at that level. I know the Elite League teams could and would do quite well, I just wonder if an actual high school team could do it, I suspect depth would become a real issue before the half way point of the season or even a 4 game tourney. That is just a hunch though with nothing to base it one scientifically.

[MrBoDangles]

Take a look at the scores of the teams that played them this year. They shut out a good AHA team, beat BSM 3-1 and STA 8-4. What I was told about the STA game is that it was fairly even, but the 20 minute periods for the 1st two periods wore on the players and SSM is more conditioned. I doubt SSM will play many more schools, but I also doubt anyone would get very close with them on a regular basis.

Obviously if you took basically our All-State and had them play together all year, they'd be awesome. No one is arguing that. But comparing current HS teams to SSM is apples and oranges.

STA played them "fairly even" for the first two periods, but then you doubt anyone else could on a regular basis? If STA can't... No one can? Was the score 8-4 or 6-4?

BSM's depth was really exploited in their game. Their one line was probably better, but didn't have the same conditioning like you said.

I think the Eden Prarie win over BSM was a "8-4" game.

The top 5 to possibly 10 MSHSL teams would be very competitive for TIER 1 national champ SSM.

You might be right and I am not saying you are wrong. However, single game cases are very tough to really draw anything from in this scenario. The reason being, I am just guessing here, BUT I bet these H.S. teams really get "up" for games against SSM when they are able occur. However, could these high school teams play a 50+ game schedule with virtually every single game being played at that level and then navigate a tournament at the end of the season at that level. I know the Elite League teams could and would do quite well, I just wonder if an actual high school team could do it, I suspect depth would become a real issue before the half way point of the season or even a 4 game tourney. That is just a hunch though with nothing to base it one scientifically.

Same here with just a hunch.

HSHW was on to something with conditioning. BSM and STA both seemed to go flat towards the end of the games. Were they hyped up at the beginning of the game or was SSM more game ready? Tough to know for sure.....

[karl(east)]

I think we are misunderstanding eachother slightly. I would agree there is no way a HIGH SCHOOL (like Eden Prairie) could ever play for the Tier 1 title and I knew that. Just like our State Champs, Wausau West cannot play for a post season Tier 1 title, BUT several of the players on their team can when they rejoin Team Wisconsin for play after the H.S. state tourne y is over. So why couldn't the Elite League teams do the same? The Elite League is not governed by MSHSL to my knowledge and IS in fact governed by USA Hockey, atleast that is what I understood as it is technically outside the high school strucure (just happens to have all high school players in it).

So again, I don't want you to change anything about yoru high school season or your state tourney. What I am saying is that once H.S. and the state tourney is over, why can't the Elite League teams get back together and play in the post season tourneys toward a national title at the Tier 1 MM and mm levels? Just like Team Wisconsin does. There is a separate state title on the line for Tier 1 in WI than the H.S. state title, totally different things, MN could do the same thing. Does that help clarify things?

Yes--I was confused over who governs the Elite League. If it is indeed USA Hockey...forward your idea on to the right people! I'm guessing cost and conflict with spring sports would be the most significant concerns, but they have to deal with those if fall, too.

[JSR]

I think we are misunderstanding eachother slightly. I would agree there is no way a HIGH SCHOOL (like Eden Prairie) could ever play for the Tier 1 title and I knew that. Just like our State Champs, Wausau West cannot play for a post season Tier 1 title, BUT several of the players on their team can when they rejoin Team Wisconsin for play after the H.S. state tourne y is over. So why couldn't the Elite League teams do the same? The Elite League is not governed by MSHSL to my knowledge and IS in fact governed by USA Hockey, atleast that is what I understood as it is technically outside the high school strucure (just happens to have all high school players in it).

So again, I don't want you to change anything about yoru high school season or your state tourney. What I am saying is that once H.S. and the state tourney is over, why can't the Elite League teams get back together and play in the post season tourneys toward a national title at the Tier 1 MM and mm levels? Just like Team Wisconsin does. There is a separate state title on the line for Tier 1 in WI than the H.S. state title, totally different things, MN could do the same thing. Does that help clarify things?

Yes--I was confused over who governs the Elite League. If it is indeed USA Hockey...forward your idea on to the right people! I'm guessing cost and conflict with spring sports would be the most significant concerns, but they have to deal with those if fall, too.

I've heard the biggest road block is that you'd need to hold your state H.S. tourney a week or two earlier than you do currently if I am not mistaken. Not sure the history behind the weekend it is currently on or whatever. Like I said, I kow Wisconsin makes it work so in theory MN could too if they wanted to. Yes spring sports can be an issue but like you said, fal sports are for Elite League but honestly the Tier 1 tourney is over by like the first week in April or so, so it's not that big of a deal conflict wise. Chances are the "Elite" players would like this additional option I would think but that is just me. As for submitting it, it is just my idea but I have no dog in the fight in MN since I live in WI so it wouldn't mean much coming from me

[O-townClown]

...because USA Hockey really wants some thrown-together all-star team to form at the end of the year so they can win the Tier I tournament for the oldest Youth classification.

[JSR]

...because USA Hockey really wants some thrown-together all-star team to form at the end of the year so they can win the Tier I tournament for the oldest Youth classification.

What are you talking about?

ALL Tier 1 AAA MM teams are basically allstar teams at their root. The Elite League teams play a nice before season schedule so they aren't jsut "thrown together teams" they are teams that play together and then take a break for H.S. and then can get back together for this purpose, just like Team Wisconsin does and so do a handful of other teams around the country. It's actually not a big deal and actually a real good idea to keep top end kids playing for their high schools instead of seeking other alternatives. USA Hockey does not care one way or another

[O-townClown]

What are you talking about?

ALL Tier 1 AAA MM teams are basically allstar teams at their root. The Elite League teams play a nice before season schedule so they aren't jsut "thrown together teams" they are teams that play together and then take a break for H.S. and then can get back together for this purpose, just like Team Wisconsin does and so do a handful of other teams around the country. It's actually not a big deal and actually a real good idea to keep top end kids playing for their high schools instead of seeking other alternatives. USA Hockey does not care one way or another

St. Louis played 64 games.
Thunderbirds 72.
Honeybaked 72.
Capitals 63.
Buffalo 67.
California 70.
Comcast 71.
Gilmour 64.

Yeah, they're really catering to teams that don't play together through the season.

If the Tier I Midget championship comes to be dominated by teams that aren't intact for the Fall/Winter season you will see USA Hockey do something in a hurry.

[darkhorse]

St. Louis played 64 games.
Thunderbirds 72.
Honeybaked 72.
Capitals 63.
Buffalo 67.
California 70.
Comcast 71.
Gilmour 64.

Yeah, they're really catering to teams that don't play together through the season.

If the Tier I Midget championship comes to be dominated by teams that aren't intact for the Fall/Winter season you will see USA Hockey do something in a hurry.

Pretty sure the post said Team WI and a handful of other programs. How you got "catering" to those teams out of that is beyond me. Are you really assuming that these teams would "dominate" the Tier I championship?

Personally I think it's a good idea that would give kids a more compelling reason to stay at home, play Fall Elite League, play for their HS team, and then have a highly competitive Spring team they can be a part of. For the most part kids that leave early do it to increase the number of games they play (ice time) and up the level of competition, this would do both.

[BodyShots]

I think we are misunderstanding eachother slightly. I would agree there is no way a HIGH SCHOOL (like Eden Prairie) could ever play for the Tier 1 title and I knew that. Just like our State Champs, Wausau West cannot play for a post season Tier 1 title, BUT several of the players on their team can when they rejoin Team Wisconsin for play after the H.S. state tourne y is over. So why couldn't the Elite League teams do the same? The Elite League is not governed by MSHSL to my knowledge and IS in fact governed by USA Hockey, atleast that is what I understood as it is technically outside the high school strucure (just happens to have all high school players in it).

So again, I don't want you to change anything about yoru high school season or your state tourney. What I am saying is that once H.S. and the state tourney is over, why can't the Elite League teams get back together and play in the post season tourneys toward a national title at the Tier 1 MM and mm levels? Just like Team Wisconsin does. There is a separate state title on the line for Tier 1 in WI than the H.S. state title, totally different things, MN could do the same thing. Does that help clarify things?

Maybe what they should do is take the top 20 elite players and make an all-star team that would get back together after the high school season to play in this national title? Kind of an award for being the best in the fall elite league!

[keepyourheadup]

Elite league teams are basically just thrown together, I know this from personnal experience, a few practices prior to the season and only a couple after that.

[JSR]

What are you talking about?

ALL Tier 1 AAA MM teams are basically allstar teams at their root. The Elite League teams play a nice before season schedule so they aren't jsut "thrown together teams" they are teams that play together and then take a break for H.S. and then can get back together for this purpose, just like Team Wisconsin does and so do a handful of other teams around the country. It's actually not a big deal and actually a real good idea to keep top end kids playing for their high schools instead of seeking other alternatives. USA Hockey does not care one way or another

St. Louis played 64 games.
Thunderbirds 72.
Honeybaked 72.
Capitals 63.
Buffalo 67.
California 70.
Comcast 71.
Gilmour 64.

Yeah, they're really catering to teams that don't play together through the season.

If the Tier I Midget championship comes to be dominated by teams that aren't intact for the Fall/Winter season you will see USA Hockey do something in a hurry.

You conveneintly left out the:
Boston Jr. Bruins
Team Wisconsin
Boston Little Bruins
Midfarifield Blues
Cape Cod Whalers
Neponset Valley River Rats
Connecticut Jr. Bobcats
Long Islands Royals
Alaska AllStars
Buffalo Saints

and several others ALL of whom regularly compete in the Tier 1 national playoffs in spring and ALL of whom play roughly the same (or fewer) number of games than the Elite League teams do together. I also think it's comical that you assume that a MN Elite League team would "dominate" the Tier 1 championship playoffs every year. They would be very good, might even win a title (just liek TW did a few years ago) but to think they'd come in and dominate, yeah, I don't think so.

[keepyourheadup]

So what you are saying is basically that a team Minnesota would do about the same as team Wisconcin, you've now answered your own question from your earlier thread.