Int'l Cup Tournament

[sdog]

Where on the internet? Got a link?

It also doesn't get mentioned that the Flyers ended the game on a 5 on 3. The fight started at the buzzer with 5 Flyers fighting the three Thunder Bay kids. Both teams came onto the ice at game end and a 4 th Thunder Bay player came from the bench and got involved. the coaches (retards) did not send their kids out to brawl. I know one of the coaches well and he never would have sent kids over the bench.

Fact - the game did not end on a 5-3 Flyer advantage...in fact Flyers were on a 5-4 advantage and Thunder had their goalie pulled so it was 5 on 5 players on the ice (excluding the Flyer goalie)

Fact...at the final buzzer, with the puck rolling into the Flyer D zone corner a Thunder played leaped into the air and hit the biggest kid on the Flyers from behind into the glass. The Flyer player reacted accordingly to this type of hit and defended himself...by pushing and admittingly throwing some punches...but all by himself...and the refs would have broken this up...BUT

FACT - as the Flyer players left the bench to celebrate and hogpile on the winning goalie...one of the coaches on the Thunder bench yell GO!!!...and all the Thunder players came off the bench in a wave, attacking Flyer players at random, some from BEHIND!...it was a sad show of unsportsmanship...clearly somebody needs to remind the TB coach who yelled GO!...not to confuse the tactics he obviousy teaches players on the Tier 3 JUNIOR hockey team he coaches in the SIJHL ....with what are appropriate tactics ...both on the ice and when the final buzzer sounds...for the 12-13 year old kids he coaches on the Thunder.

FACT...a Flyer coach did pull a Thunder player off a Flyer player because he tried to KICK the Flyer player with this skate.

The real loser here are the kids who got cheated out of a championship game...both the Thunder players...and they are very skilled hockey players...and the Flyers players...who are also very skilled hockey players. Really sad...but there is simply too much bad blood between these 2 teams to chance a repeat of how the last tourney ended...hopefully as time goes on the situation will simmer down and we can all move on from this.

You are quite right about the kids getting cheated...and on that note, I heard the decision to forfeit was made by a Flyers' parents vote. Did anybody ask the Flyers kids what they wanted?

[Cdale]

1 Game's penalties for Thunder Bay: (5 roughings, a head contact, a game misconduct etc...)
This was VS Machine Black in which one kid ended up with concussion and one with a seperated shoulder

1 11 Hooking 2 9:38
1 6 Elbowing 2 16:13
2 9 Charging 2 2:04
2 9 Head Contact/Checking 2 2:29
2 6 Tripping 2 5:54
2 5 High Sticking 2 8:39
2 6 RoughingGame Misconduct 10 9:50
2 6 Roughing 4 9:50
2 96 Roughing 2 12:24
2 15 Boarding 2 13:39
3 9 Charging 2 2:27

[thunderwolf]

1 Game's penalties for Thunder Bay: (5 roughings, a head contact, a game misconduct etc...)
This was VS Machine Black in which one kid ended up with concussion and one with a seperated shoulder

1 11 Hooking 2 9:38
1 6 Elbowing 2 16:13
2 9 Charging 2 2:04
2 9 Head Contact/Checking 2 2:29
2 6 Tripping 2 5:54
2 5 High Sticking 2 8:39
2 6 RoughingGame Misconduct 10 9:50
2 6 Roughing 4 9:50
2 96 Roughing 2 12:24
2 15 Boarding 2 13:39
3 9 Charging 2 2:27

And one of the kids who left the game got hurt on a clean, open ice hit with no penalty called. My point exactly about how a biased report of the "facts" can truly distort what really happened.

And I have been told (yes I know, hearsay) that the Machine coaches didn't have a problem with the way Thunder Bay played. All of these reports are from biased Flyers supporters I would believe.

[old goalie85]

I watched Thunder play a couple times this weekend. I personally didn't see anything that I didn't see in my son's five 98 nat games. We played [and got crushed by] the flyers. They are a big tough team I'm sure they [the kids] would have wanted to play. The game between the Crush and the nats had a borderline fight in it. That age boys are starting to get into those teen years.

[hockey59]

Thanks to online stats. Check out the penalty minutes in 98 division over 5 games. 6 teams including the CCM flyers were within 10 penalties of the Thunder for the whole tournament. Minneapolis doesn't exactly have a reputation for letting things go and an average of 8 penalties per game on average for Thunder Bay isn't exactly broad street bully hockey. I'm not saying they weren't chippy, but with those kinds of stats sure don't paint a good picture for throwing a championship. They send an even worse message as these kids enter bantam A hockey against bigger, older kids this fall.

Team Name Penalty minutes from tournament
CCM Flyers 64
Skate to Excellence 16
Jr Beavers 72
Reebok Nationals 58
MN Legacy Hockey 49
Miracle Gold 66
Thunder Bay 98s 80
MINWIS Elites 60
Thunder Bay Thunder 82
AAA Crush Hockey 66
Machine Black 71
Ice Edge Elite 54

The Thunder were within 10 penalty calls (18 minutes more, 82 vs 64) than the Flyers...whoopi...the Flyers got 24 minutes of their calls over one play in the game with the Jr. Beavers...and I'm sure if you asked the Jr Beaver coaches, they would have no problem with how the Flyers played against them.

And you keep bringing up preparing players for the physical aspect of Bantams hockeyday...fact is some of the Flyer parents have already had kids who have played Bantams, High School, Juniors, etc...so we are well aware of how to prepare our kids for the higher physical levels of hockey.

Naturally all the Flyer players wanted to play in the Championship game vs. the Thunder...but only 21 days after the well documented brawl that occurred at Indy Classic...it wasn't a decision to be made by 12-13 year olds.

The Flyers had won 12 games in a row and 2 tourney titles prior to forfeiting the championship game...it wasn't an easy decision to make...but it was made. By the way, this is kids hockey...not the Stanley Cup Finals...and I'll trade 16 Flyer players and 17 Thunder players waking up today with no serious injury...for a 1st place medal, a t-shirt or a trophy...anytime.

[hockey59]

1 Game's penalties for Thunder Bay: (5 roughings, a head contact, a game misconduct etc...)
This was VS Machine Black in which one kid ended up with concussion and one with a seperated shoulder

1 11 Hooking 2 9:38
1 6 Elbowing 2 16:13
2 9 Charging 2 2:04
2 9 Head Contact/Checking 2 2:29
2 6 Tripping 2 5:54
2 5 High Sticking 2 8:39
2 6 RoughingGame Misconduct 10 9:50
2 6 Roughing 4 9:50
2 96 Roughing 2 12:24
2 15 Boarding 2 13:39
3 9 Charging 2 2:27

And one of the kids who left the game got hurt on a clean, open ice hit with no penalty called. My point exactly about how a biased report of the "facts" can truly distort what really happened.

And I have been told (yes I know, hearsay) that the Machine coaches didn't have a problem with the way Thunder Bay played. All of these reports are from biased Flyers supporters I would believe.

Thunderwolf...did someone highjack your user name?...cause I know the real thunderwolf is a TB 98 parent...so you were not even in attendance at the Indy classic.

Actually, you would be better off expending your energy trying to recover the game jerseys that the TB98 turned Thunder mgr plundered from the 98 team (instead of wearing those grey practice jerseys).
If you want to defend your friends, I do understand...just don't comment on the events that occurred at a tournament you didn't attend in person

[interestedbystander]

Sounds like a missed opportunity to teach some valuable life lessons (or just chicken &*$!) to me. Don't play in the tournament at all if you are not willing to play ALL of the teams. Perhaps the better move would have been to have the tournament director get the two teams together with the parents and coaches and warn them to behave. But, once again, parents getting overly involved in a kid's game. I bet a couple of overly vocal, dramatic mommies got the whole bunch riled up.

[Roofjob19]

Thanks to online stats. Check out the penalty minutes in 98 division over 5 games. 6 teams including the CCM flyers were within 10 penalties of the Thunder for the whole tournament. Minneapolis doesn't exactly have a reputation for letting things go and an average of 8 penalties per game on average for Thunder Bay isn't exactly broad street bully hockey. I'm not saying they weren't chippy, but with those kinds of stats sure don't paint a good picture for throwing a championship. They send an even worse message as these kids enter bantam A hockey against bigger, older kids this fall.

Team Name Penalty minutes from tournament
CCM Flyers 64
Skate to Excellence 16
Jr Beavers 72
Reebok Nationals 58
MN Legacy Hockey 49
Miracle Gold 66
Thunder Bay 98s 80
MINWIS Elites 60
Thunder Bay Thunder 82
AAA Crush Hockey 66
Machine Black 71
Ice Edge Elite 54

The Thunder were within 10 penalty calls (18 minutes more, 82 vs 64) than the Flyers...whoopi...the Flyers got 24 minutes of their calls over one play in the game with the Jr. Beavers...and I'm sure if you asked the Jr Beaver coaches, they would have no problem with how the Flyers played against them.

And you keep bringing up preparing players for the physical aspect of Bantams hockeyday...fact is some of the Flyer parents have already had kids who have played Bantams, High School, Juniors, etc...so we are well aware of how to prepare our kids for the higher physical levels of hockey.

Naturally all the Flyer players wanted to play in the Championship game vs. the Thunder...but only 21 days after the well documented brawl that occurred at Indy Classic...it wasn't a decision to be made by 12-13 year olds.

The Flyers had won 12 games in a row and 2 tourney titles prior to forfeiting the championship game...it wasn't an easy decision to make...but it was made. By the way, this is kids hockey...not the Stanley Cup Finals...and I'll trade 16 Flyer players and 17 Thunder players waking up today with no serious injury...for a 1st place medal, a t-shirt or a trophy...anytime.

Hockey59 was at the Indy Championship Game and in his 1st post states the facts of the incident following a Flyer victory accurately. I was there to witness the game,was on the ice for the post game brawl, and have watched the subsequent video 50 times or more watching the actions of both teams and there was just no way the Flyers were going to be put in that position again. This is not about preparing kids for Bantams it is about the safety of the kids involved in the game and the kids and parents made the decision as a group to forfeit the game. The Flyers would have loved to win a 3rd Championship in a row but it would have been the wrong decision had a kid on either team been seriously injured.
Hopefully after some time passes the Thunder and Flyers will meet again because all 3 of the previous meetings have been very competitive games. (1-1-1) over the last 2 summers.

[thunderwolf]

Thunderwolf...did someone highjack your user name?...cause I know the real thunderwolf is a TB 98 parent...so you were not even in attendance at the Indy classic.

Actually, you would be better off expending your energy trying to recover the game jerseys that the TB98 turned Thunder mgr plundered from the 98 team (instead of wearing those grey practice jerseys).
If you want to defend your friends, I do understand...just don't comment on the events that occurred at a tournament you didn't attend in person

You are missing the whole point though. Stating "facts" while adding personally biased comments to them changes the entire message delivered. There are two sides to this story and only the Flyers version is being posted. I don't hear the Flyers parents commenting on an adult coach shaking a 12 year old player.

Posting game penalty lists and then mentioning that two players were injured makes it appear that the injuries were caused by illegal play. A fact (the penalties called during the game) is clouded by the presentation with players being hurt.

Really, this is not my fight, but I do take exception to references of coaches as retards and players as being in prison in a few years. These are 12 and 13 year olds and I would guess if you were to take a look at their futures it would compare favourably to those of any other similiarly aged randomly selected kids.

[keepurheadup]

Was this pond hockey with no refs? If your kid is scared to play other kids the exact same age who are 12 and 13 years old and just over 100lbs soaking wet you better get him out of hockey. When you go into first years bantams in 3 months your kids will be playing 180lb 14 and 15 year olds who truly can cause serious harm. The reffing at these minneapolis tourneys is usually brutal in terms of over calling everything so if you can't play in that setting, you're gonna have a problem. Wait till you see some of the other big Canadian clubs especially from Manitoba.

Most of the kids on the TBT are 120-180 easy. The issue here isn't rough play, it's dirty play. Rough is fine, it's part of the game.

[keepurheadup]

1 Game's penalties for Thunder Bay: (5 roughings, a head contact, a game misconduct etc...)
This was VS Machine Black in which one kid ended up with concussion and one with a seperated shoulder

1 11 Hooking 2 9:38
1 6 Elbowing 2 16:13
2 9 Charging 2 2:04
2 9 Head Contact/Checking 2 2:29
2 6 Tripping 2 5:54
2 5 High Sticking 2 8:39
2 6 RoughingGame Misconduct 10 9:50
2 6 Roughing 4 9:50
2 96 Roughing 2 12:24
2 15 Boarding 2 13:39
3 9 Charging 2 2:27

And one of the kids who left the game got hurt on a clean, open ice hit with no penalty called. My point exactly about how a biased report of the "facts" can truly distort what really happened.

And I have been told (yes I know, hearsay) that the Machine coaches didn't have a problem with the way Thunder Bay played. All of these reports are from biased Flyers supporters I would believe.

What you were told was incorrect.

If refs called games cleanly we wouldn't even be having this discussion nor would checking potentially be getting removed at the pewee level.

What's recapped above for penalties were just the one that were actually called. The refs did a terrible job that game and there were around twice as many.

I have tape of the game, including the pummeling of one of the machine players by a TBT player that was twice his size after the whistle - three players crashed the net one got thrown over the goalie by a TBT player trying to clear the crease, the TBT player then jumped on him and started pounding him in the face. The TBT player was thrown out of the game but allowed to play for the rest of the tournament - he should've been thrown out of the tournament.

Also on a player in the Machine zone one of the TBT players and a Machine player were in the corner and the TBT player looking right at the Machine player trys to spear the Machine player in the throat under his mask, while the ref just a few feet stood there and watched...

The TBT play dirty, the issue isn't rough, it's dirty play. It's really too bad too because they've got a skilled group of kids that I know has played together for a while. It seems like they just need to get rid of a few rotten eggs or correct their behavior and get a new coach...

[dzonecoverage]

somebody needs to post a link to the video

[hockey59]

Thunderwolf...did someone highjack your user name?...cause I know the real thunderwolf is a TB 98 parent...so you were not even in attendance at the Indy classic.

Actually, you would be better off expending your energy trying to recover the game jerseys that the TB98 turned Thunder mgr plundered from the 98 team (instead of wearing those grey practice jerseys).
If you want to defend your friends, I do understand...just don't comment on the events that occurred at a tournament you didn't attend in person

You are missing the whole point though. Stating "facts" while adding personally biased comments to them changes the entire message delivered. There are two sides to this story and only the Flyers version is being posted. I don't hear the Flyers parents commenting on an adult coach shaking a 12 year old player.

Posting game penalty lists and then mentioning that two players were injured makes it appear that the injuries were caused by illegal play. A fact (the penalties called during the game) is clouded by the presentation with players being hurt.

Really, this is not my fight, but I do take exception to references of coaches as retards and players as being in prison in a few years. These are 12 and 13 year olds and I would guess if you were to take a look at their futures it would compare favourably to those of any other similiarly aged randomly selected kids.

Thunderwolf....as least we can agree on something...The reference another poster made characterizing the Thunder coaches as retards and players as being in prison in a few years was clearly unfortunate and obviously in-accurate. The Thunder coaches are not retards...and the Thunder have some really skilled hockey players and the Thunder organization has been around for a long time...back to the day when my older son (a 90 birthyear) played for the LS Stars and Jr. Gophers against the Thunder... those games were always hard fought and physical...but NEVER involved a bench clearly brawl following a game.

The Flyer coach in question (who I talked to in person today) did pull a Thunder player off a prone-on-the-ice Flyer player and held on to him for a few seconds while asking him to return to his bench...according to the coach, the Thunder player in question told our coach to F...off and that he "wanted to kill someone"...and then our coach let go of him to help break up another fight.

The ironic thing is (by chance, I asked what his grandsons number was while standing next to him while watching the Thunder play the Legacy during Saturdays International Cup semifinals) I talked to the Grandpa of the Thunder kid involved in the incident you're referring to with our coach...turns out the Grandpa is a really nice guy and I'm sure his grandson is a good kid...but in the heat of the moment, emotions are high during a brawl...and s... happens.

And for the record, our Flyer coach takes exception to your repeated accusations that he "shook the Thunder player". He was trying to break up a melee and protect the safety of both the Flyer and Thunder players.

I think its time to move on and enjoy the 5 week summer break our team is taking.

[Cdale]

somebody needs to post a link to the video

A link would be nice. Also note-
Thunder bay in 4 games:
10 Roughing calls
4 Charging calls
2 head shots (calls)
1 Boarding call
1 Game Misconduct

[hockeyday]

I think if parents on a team want to start having debates and votes on the extremely subjective concept of what teams are "dirty" and "cheap shots" then tournament committees everywhere beware. Maybe we can organize debates and determine which teams we will and wont play and I guess the concept of minimum games is out the window if the hockey moms on the other team think one of your kids hit little Johnny too hard last game. I can see the CCM and other parents threatening teams in the future - "one more hit like that and we wont play you". Of course with this new parent board of review for each team, we will we need a panel of judges for some sort of appeal process review now that refs are no longer sufficient. People are paying big bucks and these tournaments are all reffed by qualified and often too strict refs. Forfeiting games against teams your own age are wrong and my thing is there are good and bad tournaments and if you don't like how one is run mark it down on your list and do go back there again.

[Anti Orange]

Both sides of this need to get over it and move on. It's a hockey game.

[hockey59]

CCM forfeited a championship game because it was too rough? Thats a great lesson for the kids going into bantam hockey this year - When the going gets tough pack up your gear and go home. Maybe CCM can start up a new non-contact league or see if their boys can play in the girls hockey league.

Hockeyday...listed above was your first post on regarding the Flyers and Thunder...what it has in common with all the others (except for the one where you list penalty minutes...which had some value) is that it contains no facts...just your opinions...which to be kind could be referred to as mis-guided and irrelevant...and to not be kind...could be referred to as coming from a D....bag who know very little about the sport of hockey.

I may not agree with Thunderwolf, but at least I respect what he has to say, because it has been relevant to the discussion.

Your comments have simply been demeaning towards our players and parents and I doubt you were even at the tourney...you simply blab your off-base and irrelevant opinions...how bout giving it a rest.

[hockeyday]

your poster refer to parents and coaches as retards and suggest their kids are going to end up in prison and you have the nerve to get on your high horse and call me demeaning. All I can say is if I ran a tournament CCM can look elsewhere and you may find that is not just my opinion which I thought was acceptable on an opinion chat line. If you're not happy about other opinions contrary to yours I'm sure you will have a parent vote and boycott the site!!

[Anti Orange]

I thought my kids were whiners. I think you should both shut up and stop whining. Stop crying.

[Cdale]

your poster refer to parents and coaches as retards and suggest their kids are going to end up in prison and you have the nerve to get on your high horse and call me demeaning. All I can say is if I ran a tournament CCM can look elsewhere and you may find that is not just my opinion which I thought was acceptable on an opinion chat line. If you're not happy about other opinions contrary to yours I'm sure you will have a parent vote and boycott the site!!

I was probably wrong to use 'retard'. I did not say anything about prison (WHAT?). And after some time, this will fade away and maybe these 2 squads will battle again in a great hockey game. The Flyers aren't the 1st team to pull out and won't be the last. I'm moving on.

[hockeyday]

I apologize I was all wrong. I heard Boston is thinking of pulling out of game 7 because of that dirty hit on Horton. CCM is totally right in teaching their kids to quit when the competition plays too tough.

[interestedbystander]

If you are not willing to play ALL the teams in the tournament, don't play at all. I would be careful, if I were a tournament director, to register any team that has a history of doing this (letting the parents decide whether to play certain teams). As a team, you pay for a certain number of games and incur a certain amount of expense in travel/housing --- hope Thunder Bay is getting a partial refund.

[Roofjob19]

I apologize I was all wrong. I heard Boston is thinking of pulling out of game 7 because of that dirty hit on Horton. CCM is totally right in teaching their kids to quit when the competition plays too tough.

Tough is not the problem...Dirty is. For example compare the 98 Jr Steelers to the TB Thunder. The Steelers will hit evrything that moves like the Thunder but will there is never any intent to injure. They play hard and tough. The Thunder does the same but with an intent to injure and all of the behind the play cross checks, slashes, and punches that gives them a bad rep. It's too bad because the are a very good team with some really skilled kids.

[Dilligaf]

It was wrong fort CCM to not play. Sends the wrong message. If a few parents didn't want their kids to play, then they can go home. The refs need to take control right away and toss kids right away if anything happened. Not playing should never have been an option. I know some people that were at that game. According to them it was not as bad as some make it and was worse than others have made it. They should have played the game.

[TBAYGIRLS]

Was this pond hockey with no refs? If your kid is scared to play other kids the exact same age who are 12 and 13 years old and just over 100lbs soaking wet you better get him out of hockey. When you go into first years bantams in 3 months your kids will be playing 180lb 14 and 15 year olds who truly can cause serious harm. The reffing at these minneapolis tourneys is usually brutal in terms of over calling everything so if you can't play in that setting, you're gonna have a problem. Wait till you see some of the other big Canadian clubs especially from Manitoba.

Most of the kids on the TBT are 120-180 easy. The issue here isn't rough play, it's dirty play. Rough is fine, it's part of the game

Just to let you know half of the kids on my team are just over 100 and some are under 100.. yes we have big players but we werent taught to intend injury