Development Opinions

[O-townClown]

We are in the minority, but that's ok ..because we are right.

This is priceless. Can someone tack this up top?

These are facts:

* 2011 was a down year with no Minnesotans being drafted in the 1st Round - last year there were three (Nelson, Bjugstad, Forbort), the year before saw two (Schroeder, Leddy), the year before it was one (Gardiner), the year before that it was three (O'Brien, White, McDonagh), and the year before that it was four (Mueller, Okposo, Fischer, Johnson). You have to cherry-pick recent draft results in order to make the case Minnesota isn't turning out top round talent.

* There are many obstacles to overcome in order for something to take hold as an alternative to the community-based model. No proposal has been laid out to show what form Tier I of HPC in-season hockey would look like. Some mention one team per District, some have said three teams, one option would be an 'open market' with multiple programs, and others envision one like a Team Minnesota per birthyear. Pointing out that these obstacles exist does not necessarily mean agreement with the superiority of community-based hockey, it means folks can't see an abandonment of a model that works very well with so many unanswered questions.

* People on your side disagree about where the problem lies, so I don't know how you can say "we are right" with any confidence. Is the problem that kids in Minnesota have to play within their association at age 9-11 and can't play elite Tier I hockey with the best of the best? Is it that there's a gap year or two after Bantams? Is it that our HS teams don't play enough games? I've heard all three at one time or another.

[MrBoDangles]

We are in the minority, but that's ok ..because we are right.

This is priceless. Can someone tack this up top?

These are facts:

* 2011 was a down year with no Minnesotans being drafted in the 1st Round - last year there were three (Nelson, Bjugstad, Forbort), the year before saw two (Schroeder, Leddy), the year before it was one (Gardiner), the year before that it was three (O'Brien, White, McDonagh), and the year before that it was four (Mueller, Okposo, Fischer, Johnson). You have to cherry-pick recent draft results in order to make the case Minnesota isn't turning out top round talent.

* There are many obstacles to overcome in order for something to take hold as an alternative to the community-based model. No proposal has been laid out to show what form Tier I of HPC in-season hockey would look like. Some mention one team per District, some have said three teams, one option would be an 'open market' with multiple programs, and others envision one like a Team Minnesota per birthyear. Pointing out that these obstacles exist does not necessarily mean agreement with the superiority of community-based hockey, it means folks can't see an abandonment of a model that works very well with so many unanswered questions.

* People on your side disagree about where the problem lies, so I don't know how you can say "we are right" with any confidence. Is the problem that kids in Minnesota have to play within their association at age 9-11 and can't play elite Tier I hockey with the best of the best? Is it that there's a gap year or two after Bantams? Is it that our HS teams don't play enough games? I've heard all three at one time or another.

Even though I believe it's true...... I didn't write what you quoted me as writing.

Hey, Bernie McBain, OTC says there are no hurdles to bringing your Fire team team to the Made compound.

You're a real modern day Paul Revere....

[Quasar]

We are in the minority, but that's ok ..because we are right.

This is priceless. Can someone tack this up top?

These are facts:

* 2011 was a down year with no Minnesotans being drafted in the 1st Round - last year there were three (Nelson, Bjugstad, Forbort), the year before saw two (Schroeder, Leddy), the year before it was one (Gardiner), the year before that it was three (O'Brien, White, McDonagh), and the year before that it was four (Mueller, Okposo, Fischer, Johnson). You have to cherry-pick recent draft results in order to make the case Minnesota isn't turning out top round talent.

* There are many obstacles to overcome in order for something to take hold as an alternative to the community-based model. No proposal has been laid out to show what form Tier I of HPC in-season hockey would look like. Some mention one team per District, some have said three teams, one option would be an 'open market' with multiple programs, and others envision one like a Team Minnesota per birthyear. Pointing out that these obstacles exist does not necessarily mean agreement with the superiority of community-based hockey, it means folks can't see an abandonment of a model that works very well with so many unanswered questions.

* People on your side disagree about where the problem lies, so I don't know how you can say "we are right" with any confidence. Is the problem that kids in Minnesota have to play within their association at age 9-11 and can't play elite Tier I hockey with the best of the best? Is it that there's a gap year or two after Bantams? Is it that our HS teams don't play enough games? I've heard all three at one time or another.

I wondered when you would show up.

All of your points are well taken and I think correct.

"because we are right" refers to the fact there will be some kind of USA hockey in Minnesota before 5 years are up. What that will be I have no idea and I don't suppose you do either.

What I am talking about is District HPC hockey...

All the smoke will not change the fact that its coming to Minnesota in one form or another.. Let's have your opinion on how that would or would not work out in district 10.

Please quit putting words in my mouth. I have enough trouble on my own

[MrBoDangles]

This is priceless. Can someone tack this up top?

These are facts:

* 2011 was a down year with no Minnesotans being drafted in the 1st Round - last year there were three (Nelson, Bjugstad, Forbort), the year before saw two (Schroeder, Leddy), the year before it was one (Gardiner), the year before that it was three (O'Brien, White, McDonagh), and the year before that it was four (Mueller, Okposo, Fischer, Johnson). You have to cherry-pick recent draft results in order to make the case Minnesota isn't turning out top round talent.

* There are many obstacles to overcome in order for something to take hold as an alternative to the community-based model. No proposal has been laid out to show what form Tier I of HPC in-season hockey would look like. Some mention one team per District, some have said three teams, one option would be an 'open market' with multiple programs, and others envision one like a Team Minnesota per birthyear. Pointing out that these obstacles exist does not necessarily mean agreement with the superiority of community-based hockey, it means folks can't see an abandonment of a model that works very well with so many unanswered questions.

* People on your side disagree about where the problem lies, so I don't know how you can say "we are right" with any confidence. Is the problem that kids in Minnesota have to play within their association at age 9-11 and can't play elite Tier I hockey with the best of the best? Is it that there's a gap year or two after Bantams? Is it that our HS teams don't play enough games? I've heard all three at one time or another.

Even though I believe it's true...... I didn't write what you quoted me as writing.

Hey, Bernie McBain, OTC says there are no hurdles to bringing your Fire team team to the Made compound.

You're a real modern day Paul Revere....

And MN will remain the land where the Edina kid will develop at a greaterrate than the Pine City kid. Ain't it great that we have a guy from Florida to tell us this is best....? Isn't the Pine City kid lucky to have Buck, the guy that played little Hockey, coach his squirt team?

[O-townClown]

It's tough to stay on point when you keep bringing up the plight of the hypothetical superstar player from Pine City. No place in the U.S. has a great answer for how to deal with low participation.

Count your blessings you are in Minnesota. At grade 9 he can join a Varsity hockey team at a private school like Totino-Grace or Hill-Murray.

Let's step beyond the theoretical. How many kids are woefully out of place in Minnesota? It seems to me like a lot of people think their kid or grandkid is the one that's going to make these supposed teams.

[Quasar]

It's tough to stay on point when you keep bringing up the plight of the hypothetical superstar player from Pine City. No place in the U.S. has a great answer for how to deal with low participation.

Count your blessings you are in Minnesota. At grade 9 he can join a Varsity hockey team at a private school like Totino-Grace or Hill-Murray.

Let's step beyond the theoretical. How many kids are woefully out of place in Minnesota? It seems to me like a lot of people think their kid or grandkid is the one that's going to make these supposed teams.

I don't know about Bo. My grandkid is past the cut off. IE: He's already playing varsity. This is about a few kids that are willing to dream for something more. When you know that only 206 Minnesotans played in the NHL in it's entire history, worrying about some kid in Pine City seems stupid on its face.
But there is no reason that the kids parents have to be wealthy for him to give it a try. If there is some way to make this happen for a few, and it doesn't hurt the many, whats the harm?

[O-townClown]

This is about a few kids that are willing to dream for something more.

But there is no reason that the kids parents have to be wealthy for him to give it a try. If there is some way to make this happen for a few, and it doesn't hurt the many, whats the harm?

This argument just goes in circles, rehashing the same points over and over. Youth hockey in America has a pay-to-play philosophy. "If there is some way to make this happen..."? Soccer in England, and I presume the rest of Europe, is predicated on a system where the skilled young players don't pay. There's no way to make that happen here; it would require a cultural shift that is too big. (Pre-teens would be signed by the youth programs affiliated with professional clubs, which is why they'd let kids play without paying.)

The reason your same-note refrain rings hollow with me is that we have a system in place where this player absolutely has a chance to reach the NHL. Keith Ballard is from Baudette. Tim Bergland is from Crookston. Tom Chorske started his HS career at Minneapolis West before the school closed. Joe Dziedzic attended Edison. Matt Niskanen is from Virginia. John Pohl is from Red Wing. There are others.

Minnesota must be doing something right. Your comment about hockey only being for the wealthy is the same thing they say around Toronto and the provervial huge fish in a small pond (in this case, Pine City) is pretty much what they say about First Nation skaters in Canada. Any system is open to commentary about its supposed shortcomings.

[Quasar]

This is about a few kids that are willing to dream for something more.

But there is no reason that the kids parents have to be wealthy for him to give it a try. If there is some way to make this happen for a few, and it doesn't hurt the many, whats the harm?

This argument just goes in circles, rehashing the same points over and over. Youth hockey in America has a pay-to-play philosophy. "If there is some way to make this happen..."? Soccer in England, and I presume the rest of Europe, is predicated on a system where the skilled young players don't pay. There's no way to make that happen here; it would require a cultural shift that is too big. (Pre-teens would be signed by the youth programs affiliated with professional clubs, which is why they'd let kids play without paying.)

The reason your same-note refrain rings hollow with me is that we have a system in place where this player absolutely has a chance to reach the NHL. Keith Ballard is from Baudette. Tim Bergland is from Crookston. Tom Chorske started his HS career at Minneapolis West before the school closed. Joe Dziedzic attended Edison. Matt Niskanen is from Virginia. John Pohl is from Red Wing. There are others.

Minnesota must be doing something right. Your comment about hockey only being for the wealthy is the same thing they say around Toronto and the provervial huge fish in a small pond (in this case, Pine City) is pretty much what they say about First Nation skaters in Canada. Any system is open to commentary about its supposed shortcomings.

You know O-Town your a good guy that only hears his own voice.
Your interpretation of the world is based on your experiences.
You seem to be unable to understand any point of view other than your own. You have the whole misdirection thing down to an art.
It is obvious to me you have no ideas of your own about anything that would add to this discussion. Anyone can throw the black sludge of misdirection into any subject, and then claim superiority.

The question still remains... How does Minnesota embrace ADM?
If you can't figure out an answer , why not just leave it alone ?

[O-townClown]

You know O-Town your a good guy that only hears his own voice.
Your interpretation of the world is based on your experiences.
You seem to be unable to understand any point of view other than your own. You have the whole misdirection thing down to an art.
It is obvious to me you have no ideas of your own about anything that would add to this discussion. Anyone can throw the black sludge of misdirection into any subject, and then claim superiority.

The question still remains... How does Minnesota embrace ADM?
If you can't figure out an answer , why not just leave it alone ?

Interesting, I've heard plenty of things supporting narrowing the base at a young age. From about a dozen people. It's not in my voice, because I see that as a bad thing.

Your interpretation of the world is based on your experiences, which is unfortunate because you don't seem to have a very broad reference point. Funny you say that I have no ideas of my own, I've been told I'm very opinionated!

They only misdirection is on the part of those trying to 'prove' that Minnesota's player development is lacking. When your points are held to scrutiny the argument shifts. Kind of makes one wonder how strong the argument is.

If you are asking how the Minnesota Hockey affiliate is embracing the ADM, I'm not an insider there. I suspect it is like the rest of the country; they're trying to figure out how to incorporate the concepts.

As for the state of Minnesota, it seems they have a head start on a lot of the ideas. A very broad base at the younger ages with a reluctance to travel, a short season for pre-pubescent youth hockey, frequent ice touches, and high-performance options for those in the Twin Cities' traditional hockey communities.

USA Hockey is shifting focus away from just Red, White & Blue hockey. People are just now seeing that the ADM encompasses much more. Maybe for Minnesota it is as simple as offering a Fall High Performance league akin to the Elite league for high schoolers, but with the players from Select 14/15 camp.

What will be interesting is to see if "reformers" trying to break the community-based model will seize parts of the ADM in order to get USA Hockey on their side.

[Quasar]

You know O-Town your a good guy that only hears his own voice.
Your interpretation of the world is based on your experiences.
You seem to be unable to understand any point of view other than your own. You have the whole misdirection thing down to an art.
It is obvious to me you have no ideas of your own about anything that would add to this discussion. Anyone can throw the black sludge of misdirection into any subject, and then claim superiority.

The question still remains... How does Minnesota embrace ADM?
If you can't figure out an answer , why not just leave it alone ?

Interesting, I've heard plenty of things supporting narrowing the base at a young age. From about a dozen people. It's not in my voice, because I see that as a bad thing.

Your interpretation of the world is based on your experiences, which is unfortunate because you don't seem to have a very broad reference point. Funny you say that I have no ideas of my own, I've been told I'm very opinionated!

They only misdirection is on the part of those trying to 'prove' that Minnesota's player development is lacking. When your points are held to scrutiny the argument shifts. Kind of makes one wonder how strong the argument is.

If you are asking how the Minnesota Hockey affiliate is embracing the ADM, I'm not an insider there. I suspect it is like the rest of the country; they're trying to figure out how to incorporate the concepts.

As for the state of Minnesota, it seems they have a head start on a lot of the ideas. A very broad base at the younger ages with a reluctance to travel, a short season for pre-pubescent youth hockey, frequent ice touches, and high-performance options for those in the Twin Cities' traditional hockey communities.

USA Hockey is shifting focus away from just Red, White & Blue hockey. People are just now seeing that the ADM encompasses much more. Maybe for Minnesota it is as simple as offering a Fall High Performance league akin to the Elite league for high schoolers, but with the players from Select 14/15 camp.

What will be interesting is to see if "reformers" trying to break the community-based model will seize parts of the ADM in order to get USA Hockey on their side.

Thank you

This is very helpful to people trying to make some sense of this subject.
I think most everyone knows where I stand on this, or at least what my ideas are. Now they have a inkling of yours. Way better than reciting who did or did not do this or that in the draft etc.

I don't consider myself a reformer, if fact I don't have any influence within Minnesota hockey. I also wonder who if anyone will try to influence USA hockey in the coming few years.

Just think this is an important subject for the parents of kids just starting on the journey. When knowledgeable hockey people like you quit arguing and start analyzing, solutions start to become evident.

Now I am sounding like a grandpa.. Sorry for that !

[greybeard58]

The 206 number from the NHL site refers to where a player was born, Bill Nyrop was not born in Minn but played High school at Edina, Dan Hinote was not born in Mn played High school for Elk River. There at least 6-8 more that I know of that played in Minnesota but were not born here. Second was Mass. with 166 and then Michigan with 122.

Bo, Maybe have a chat with your DD or the new D10 President and maybe they will have some answers for you. Not sure just how the smaller associations went for the combination idea at the Presidents meetings,but I would be willing to bet that a lot of community walls went up by some of the smaller associations.You could also try and contact either one of the past 2 presidents of the District, they might be able to help with some answers or how some different ideas can be placed for discussion.

[Quasar]

The 206 number from the NHL site refers to where a player was born, Bill Nyrop was not born in Minn but played High school at Edina, Dan Hinote was not born in Mn played High school for Elk River. There at least 6-8 more that I know of that played in Minnesota but were not born here. Second was Mass. with 166 and then Michigan with 122.

Bo, Maybe have a chat with your DD or the new D10 President and maybe they will have some answers for you. Not sure just how the smaller associations went for the combination idea at the Presidents meetings,but I would be willing to bet that a lot of community walls went up by some of the smaller associations.You could also try and contact either one of the past 2 presidents of the District, they might be able to help with some answers or how some different ideas can be placed for discussion.

Thanks for the correction on the 206 number. I just found that site the other day. What a bunch of fun going through all that data. When you look at Ontario alone having 2200 or so players if my memory serves me, the dominance by Canada becomes really evident
At any rate, a person could spend hours going through all the information in those tables. And I think I will!!

[greybeard58]

The fun part of that site ,it goes back to 1917. Some of the names bring back a lot of good memories from the 50's and 60's and 70.s.
If you can ever find the series, it was on classic sports and split the NHL History into 5 parts with a lot of old footage and interviews. Showed goal judges standing on the back of the net and ended with the 70's. Wish I had copied it.
I apologize with this being a bit off of topic.

[Quasar]

The fun part of that site ,it goes back to 1917. Some of the names bring back a lot of good memories from the 50's and 60's and 70.s.
If you can ever find the series, it was on classic sports and split the NHL History into 5 parts with a lot of old footage and interviews. Showed goal judges standing on the back of the net and ended with the 70's. Wish I had copied it.
I apologize with this being a bit off of topic.

Beard,
The tape is called 75 years of NHL history. It's $10.00 at amazon dot com.
I don't know if it's the same one your talking about but check it out anyway..

Ok ...back on topic

[karl(east)]

Ok ...back on topic

Meh, considering how far we often ramble on these threads, this one wasn't bad at all...

Despite some of the accusations thrown around, I think a lot of the back-and-forth here has been pretty illuminating. Keep it going...

[MrBoDangles]

It's tough to stay on point when you keep bringing up the plight of the hypothetical superstar player from Pine City. No place in the U.S. has a great answer for how to deal with low participation.

Count your blessings you are in Minnesota. At grade 9 he can join a Varsity hockey team at a private school like Totino-Grace or Hill-Murray.

Let's step beyond the theoretical. How many kids are woefully out of place in Minnesota? It seems to me like a lot of people think their kid or grandkid is the one that's going to make these supposed teams.

OTC, With Summer AAA Hockey being all the rage that it is we're starting to see kids from smaller associations cracking the lineups of these teams. Yes, kids in small towns are able to have potential. When these families go back to their small time associations they see how the development is lacking. The kids from the bigger association kids go back and there's not much of a difference. It's not just a few families, it's hundreds.

What are the options?

Seems like something should be provided for these families. It would be a whole different story for you if you were trapped behind the borders of a weak association. Half the practice time of other associations and nearly the same price .

There is NO way we should be happy with some of the third world Hockey going on in Minnesota.

[Quasar]

It's tough to stay on point when you keep bringing up the plight of the hypothetical superstar player from Pine City. No place in the U.S. has a great answer for how to deal with low participation.

Count your blessings you are in Minnesota. At grade 9 he can join a Varsity hockey team at a private school like Totino-Grace or Hill-Murray.

Let's step beyond the theoretical. How many kids are woefully out of place in Minnesota? It seems to me like a lot of people think their kid or grandkid is the one that's going to make these supposed teams.

OTC, With Summer AAA Hockey being all the rage that it is we're starting to see kids from smaller associations cracking the lineups of these teams. Yes, kids in small towns are able to have potential. When these families go back to their small time associations they see how the development is lacking. The kids from the bigger association kids go back and there's not much of a difference. It's not just a few families, it's hundreds.

What are the options?

Seems like something should be provided for these families. It would be a whole different story for you if you were trapped behind the borders of a weak association. Half the practice time of other associations and nearly the same price .

There is NO way we should be happy with some of the third world Hockey going on in Minnesota.

One of the big problems with Minnesota hockey is that there are many people that don't know what some small associations are like. They only have their reference from their association, and just don't understand where we are coming from. Like spin-o saying I didn't know what I was talking about when I referenced 35 games.
They live in a world of their own making, where other opinions don't matter. I guess it's our duty to keep them honest EH?

[O-townClown]

Bo, I agree.

What you have described is a localized issue with the association. Minnesota Hockey has an obligation to provide playing opportunities. I see them having a responsibility to provide an environment where all associations can be strong. It is a tall order if they are responsible for making all the weak associations better.

Mergers and co-ops are one solution that works within the existing framework. As we saw with the Minneapolis/Park example, it can be hard to strike a balance that works for everyone.

[Quasar]

Bo, I agree.

What you have described is a localized issue with the association. Minnesota Hockey has an obligation to provide playing opportunities. I see them having a responsibility to provide an environment where all associations can be strong. It is a tall order if they are responsible for making all the weak associations better.

Mergers and co-ops are one solution that works within the existing framework. As we saw with the Minneapolis/Park example, it can be hard to strike a balance that works for everyone.

Mergers and co-ops only work if the association your in gives you a waiver.
Then you can only waiver into another association if they accept your waiver.

The problem is for the exceptional player. The home association doesn't want to lose him... Most other associations that are strong don't want the headaches from the parents in their association if they take him. The week associations would be glad to have him, but if that's the case he might as well stay where he is.

If there was some kind of team that took kids from anywhere as long as they could make the try outs, this kid would have a place to play with his peers. The current system does not allow this

I'm afraid mergers and co-ops don't solve the problem...

[old goalie85]

FL will take any and all of those pine city , NB, Rush, CL,Wyoming,Stacy kids. We should form one assc. We could have a rec leauge.[We already run the youth football for all of the above] and put together a couple allstar teams for as many tournys as possible. play local and usa hockey.

[old goalie85]

And travel does not seem to be the problem because I see Pine @ our rink all the time !!

[Quasar]

FL will take any and all of those pine city , NB, Rush, CL,Wyoming,Stacy kids. We should form one assc. We could have a rec leauge.[We already run the youth football for all of the above] and put together a couple allstar teams for as many tournys as possible. play local and usa hockey.

Now your talking !!!!

[HockeyDad41]

Bo, I agree.

What you have described is a localized issue with the association. Minnesota Hockey has an obligation to provide playing opportunities. I see them having a responsibility to provide an environment where all associations can be strong. It is a tall order if they are responsible for making all the weak associations better.

Mergers and co-ops are one solution that works within the existing framework. As we saw with the Minneapolis/Park example, it can be hard to strike a balance that works for everyone.

Mergers and co-ops only work if the association your in gives you a waiver.
Then you can only waiver into another association if they accept your waiver.

The problem is for the exceptional player. The home association doesn't want to lose him... Most other associations that are strong don't want the headaches from the parents in their association if they take him. The week associations would be glad to have him, but if that's the case he might as well stay where he is.

If there was some kind of team that took kids from anywhere as long as they could make the try outs, this kid would have a place to play with his peers. The current system does not allow this

I'm afraid mergers and co-ops don't solve the problem...

Need a private company to step up and provide for the northern suburbs what the Choice League provides for the south and any one willing to drive.

Given how slow anything is to change with our current community based system, I suspect that none of our current skaters will benefit from any of these great ideas. The cynic in me suspects those in power positions at all levels of community based hockey will do nothing to erode their power base.

Personally as long as the goal is met of providing a better avenue of development and competition for the crowd that wants more than the current model allows, I could care less if it's privately run or part of the community based model.

[old goalie85]

Reebok Nats[Steve Yurochuk] is starting all year hockey academy @ Eagan. 400 hrs of ice. $12,000 and you still play assc. That should get some kids to quit hockey. Can you say "too much of a good thing"?

[Quasar]

Reebok Nats[Steve Yurochuk] is starting all year hockey academy @ Eagan. 400 hrs of ice. $12,000 and you still play assc. That should get some kids to quit hockey. Can you say "too much of a good thing"?

Oh my god !!! Whats Skinner gonna do?