Development Opinions

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:11 pm

I stand corrected, only 9 mnths, then the kids play AAA Nats. Not for the OG's kids we go to Public[free] school.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 12:58 pm

Quasar wrote: Mergers and co-ops only work if the association your in gives you a waiver.
Then you can only waiver into another association if they accept your waiver.

I'm afraid mergers and co-ops don't solve the problem...

Waivers are different from mergers/co-op teams. They are imperfect for the reason you mention, plus the receiving team can feel it is developing someone else's player.

My son plays in a very small association. Smaller than anything you've experienced. Does the affiliate need to blow up its model to accomodate us? I sure don't think so.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:13 pm

old goalie85 wrote:FL will take any and all of those pine city , NB, Rush, CL,Wyoming,Stacy kids. We should form one assc. We could have a rec leauge.[We already run the youth football for all of the above] and put together a couple allstar teams for as many tournys as possible. play local and usa hockey.

If only everyone in FL was as welcoming as you.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:30 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Quasar wrote: Mergers and co-ops only work if the association your in gives you a waiver.
Then you can only waiver into another association if they accept your waiver.

I'm afraid mergers and co-ops don't solve the problem...
Waivers are different from mergers/co-op teams. They are imperfect for the reason you mention, plus the receiving team can feel it is developing someone else's player.

My son plays in a very small association. Smaller than anything you've experienced. Does the affiliate need to blow up its model to accomodate us? I sure don't think so.

There you go again..... Apples and oranges...

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:38 pm

Quasar wrote:There you go again..... Apples and oranges...

Me? You shifted from my mention of mergers/co-ops (the apple) to inject waivers (the watermelon).

I know, I know. My reference point is limited even though I've been involved in youth hockey at every level except a rink owner. Whatever.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:48 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Quasar wrote:There you go again..... Apples and oranges...
Me? You shifted from my mention of mergers/co-ops (the apple) to inject waivers (the watermelon).

I know, I know. My reference point is limited even though I've been involved in youth hockey at every level except a rink owner. Whatever.

No.. I was just stating the problem with mergers and co-ops.
Cant happen unless the waiver thing is addressed.

Lighten up a little maybe someone will sell you a rink then you can have it all.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:08 pm

If two youth programs merge or work to field a co-op team there is no need for waivers.

The obvious issue with merging youth programs is that the youth team is supposed to feed into two HS teams. There isn't a lot of precedence of mergers that have worked well.

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:10 pm

One of the earlier posts mentioned Justin Kloos as the 3rd leading scorer in the State last year. Remember, we are talking about POINTS, ie goals AND assists. Justin played on elite teams his whole career and would NOT be "buried" on a third line in Edina, Wyazata or anywhere else......he is that good of an overall player........Justin may be the exception though....

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:35 pm

nahc wrote:One of the earlier posts mentioned Justin Kloos as the 3rd leading scorer in the State last year. Remember, we are talking about POINTS, ie goals AND assists. Justin played on elite teams his whole career and would NOT be "buried" on a third line in Edina, Wyazata or anywhere else......he is that good of an overall player........Justin may be the exception though....

That was me. No disrespect to Justin meant.. The Edina crack was to prove a point.. I'm sure Justin will show us what he's got next year as a senior.. Any way you cut it # 3 n the state is real big potatoes!!!

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:51 pm

O-townClown wrote:If two youth programs merge or work to field a co-op team there is no need for waivers.

The obvious issue with merging youth programs is that the youth team is supposed to feed into two HS teams. There isn't a lot of precedence of mergers that have worked well.

We have youth programs feeding more than one high school now. That's not a problem. The problem is 3 weak associations merging makes one big weak association.

The strong associations like Edina, White bear Lake,Wayzata etc. Are not going to merge with anyone. Why should they?

Remember the premise is what does the phenom stuck in a small association do

For example .. You say waivers are not part of the discussion . So let's say by some miracle Forest Lake forms the mega association through mergers and co-ops. The phenom in Pine City is packing his gear when Dad has to give him the news that he can't get a waiver..

Is this clear enough for you?

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:24 pm

When 2 smaller associations coop at certain levels both association boards approve the coop before anything else is approved. One association is responsible for a specific team or teams. In some cases the 2 associations one will have the Peewee and the other the Bantams. Blanket or group waivers are then filled out by the non hosting Association players. For coops between Districts is a little more complicated. But for associations that do coop, waivers while needed are not a problem and the scenario for a waivered player being denied for an approved coop does not happen. The process has been in lace for years for both youth and girls, usually last for 2 years at the youth level or until a different set of parents come up with new ideas.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:35 pm

Quasar wrote:For example .. You say waivers are not part of the discussion . So let's say by some miracle Forest Lake forms the mega association through mergers and co-ops. The phenom in Pine City is packing his gear when Dad has to give him the news that he can't get a waiver..

Is this clear enough for you?

Forest Lake now needs to merge associations to provide appropriate opportunities? Okay, I was definitely thinking of the small associations.

Pine City has two PW teams w 10-12 skaters. Forest Lake has five with larger rosters.

Your argument for blowing up Minnesota's community-based model in order to reach out to a handful of kids isn't clear to me at all. You keep shifting to new points.

What problem are you trying to solve? Maybe if you define that it'll make more sense. The absence of a Minnesotan in the first round? The paucity of 100 point scorers in the NHL from Minnesota? The lack of Division I NCAA players from Pine City? Your grandkid's team isn't any good? Hard to tell as you seem to be all over the map.

Minnesota has a community-based system that works very well for most. The unregulated off-season provides an opportunity to form teams with no geographic restrictions. For elite prospects, some choose to leave the state to pursue hockey opportunities elsehwere. Clear enough for you?

I'll get behind the movement to modify hockey in Minnesota when someone can provide an alternative that makes sense. Too many unanswered questions still. If the ADM rep works with Minnesota Hockey officials to invoke the HPCs it'll be vastly better than losing control. For this reason, I suspect you'll see Minn Hock move slowly and resist change.

Night Train · Post by **Night Train** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:50 pm

Maybe SWPrez can give a little more background but here are a few things I know about the Mpls-Park Storm.

Prior to forming a co-op'd single PeeWee A team between the two associations the St. Louis Park Squirt A team was like 0-16 in D3 play. Minneapolis SW Squirt As played in lowly D1. They formed a single PeeWee A team taking 6-8 players from each association. The players that didn't make the co-op'd A team returned to their own association and played PeeWee B. The PeeWee A team had some difficulty their first year but 3 years later the same group went to the State Bantam A tourney. A side benefit, that many didn't consider, was that the co-op'd team at A level only only took 6-8 players from each association and instantly the B teams performed much better and were solid B. Because only 6-8 went to the Storm PeeWee A team the Southwest PeeWee B team went to Regionals.

A key point to this discussion is that the co-op'd team can't be called Forest Lake or Pine City because then there's discussion regarding who owns the team. It was important to name the Mpls-Park team the Storm and put them in all together different uniforms. The team belonged to the kids, not one association or another. The River Heights Rebels, a co-op’d Bantam A team from Inver Grove Heights and South St. Paul was formed using the same arrangement. Bantam is a good level as numbers start to drop because of some strong players already needed for high school teams. But maybe if there was a good Bantam A option fewer would leave to high school. In those instances the associations keep registration revenue. Finances can be worked out so registration dollars go the association where the player left so the association isn't damaged financially. Players from the first Storm Bantam A team ended up attending 7 different high schools. The responsibility of any youth association is all about developing players not where they'll attend high school. They need to focus on good development for all the kids. In fact youth association hockey really has no connection with high school hockey. None. One is a 501c3 youth association and the other is a high school. Not connected.

So, one association volunteers to host the team. Arrange a tryout for all the associations in D10 that don't host an A team. Players not making the co-op'd Bantam A team return to their association and play B. Nobody loses anything. Bantam A first and then maybe PeeWee A. This is your best option in the next few years or your player will already be done with their youth hockey years. The A level kids have a good experience. There are other benefits as well. All of a sudden everyone is working harder on their game as they want to make that co-op'd A team called the D10 Rattlers. Everyone always says that Edina and Wayzata are strong because of the number of kids. Wrong. They're good because not only do they have more kids than you but, more importantly, they're also outworking you because of the competition to make the A team.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:22 pm

O-townClown wrote:
Quasar wrote:For example .. You say waivers are not part of the discussion . So let's say by some miracle Forest Lake forms the mega association through mergers and co-ops. The phenom in Pine City is packing his gear when Dad has to give him the news that he can't get a waiver..

Is this clear enough for you?
Forest Lake now needs to merge associations to provide appropriate opportunities? Okay, I was definitely thinking of the small associations.

Pine City has two PW teams w 10-12 skaters. Forest Lake has five with larger rosters.

Your argument for blowing up Minnesota's community-based model in order to reach out to a handful of kids isn't clear to me at all. You keep shifting to new points.

What problem are you trying to solve? Maybe if you define that it'll make more sense. The absence of a Minnesotan in the first round? The paucity of 100 point scorers in the NHL from Minnesota? The lack of Division I NCAA players from Pine City? Your grandkid's team isn't any good? Hard to tell as you seem to be all over the map.

Minnesota has a community-based system that works very well for most. The unregulated off-season provides an opportunity to form teams with no geographic restrictions. For elite prospects, some choose to leave the state to pursue hockey opportunities elsehwere. Clear enough for you?

I'll get behind the movement to modify hockey in Minnesota when someone can provide an alternative that makes sense. Too many unanswered questions still. If the ADM rep works with Minnesota Hockey officials to invoke the HPCs it'll be vastly better than losing control. For this reason, I suspect you'll see Minn Hock move slowly and resist change.

Hey I don't think I said all that stuff... I think your the one that's confused. I don't want to "Blow Up" anything I think your the one who introduced the term. You need to listen a little better

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:35 pm

Night Train wrote:Maybe SWPrez can give a little more background but here are a few things I know about the Mpls-Park Storm.

Prior to forming a co-op'd single PeeWee A team between the two associations the St. Louis Park Squirt A team was like 0-16 in D3 play. Minneapolis SW Squirt As played in lowly D1. They formed a single PeeWee A team taking 6-8 players from each association. The players that didn't make the co-op'd A team returned to their own association and played PeeWee B. The PeeWee A team had some difficulty their first year but 3 years later the same group went to the State Bantam A tourney. A side benefit, that many didn't consider, was that the co-op'd team at A level only only took 6-8 players from each association and instantly the B teams performed much better and were solid B. Because only 6-8 went to the Storm PeeWee A team the Southwest PeeWee B team went to Regionals.

A key point to this discussion is that the co-op'd team can't be called Forest Lake or Pine City because then there's discussion regarding who owns the team. It was important to name the Mpls-Park team the Storm and put them in all together different uniforms. The team belonged to the kids, not one association or another. The River Heights Rebels, a co-op’d Bantam A team from Inver Grove Heights and South St. Paul was formed using the same arrangement. Bantam is a good level as numbers start to drop because of some strong players already needed for high school teams. But maybe if there was a good Bantam A option fewer would leave to high school. In those instances the associations keep registration revenue. Finances can be worked out so registration dollars go the association where the player left so the association isn't damaged financially. Players from the first Storm Bantam A team ended up attending 7 different high schools. The responsibility of any youth association is all about developing players not where they'll attend high school. They need to focus on good development for all the kids. In fact youth association hockey really has no connection with high school hockey. None. One is a 501c3 youth association and the other is a high school. Not connected.

So, one association volunteers to host the team. Arrange a tryout for all the associations in D10 that don't host an A team. Players not making the co-op'd Bantam A team return to their association and play B. Nobody loses anything. Bantam A first and then maybe PeeWee A. This is your best option in the next few years or your player will already be done with their youth hockey years. The A level kids have a good experience. There are other benefits as well. All of a sudden everyone is working harder on their game as they want to make that co-op'd A team called the D10 Rattlers. Everyone always says that Edina and Wayzata are strong because of the number of kids. Wrong. They're good because not only do they have more kids than you but, more importantly, they're also outworking you because of the competition to make the A team.

I think this would be a good thing for the majority. And I would love to see a Moose, or Hawks in all the districts... Mpls /St louis park needed to do this to survive. District 10 on the other hand sends kids to state with out any help. Ie: they don't need it I hope down the road the they will do this co-op with the intention of forming all star teams that can compete where ever they want.

Just looking for a little choice. We all know that when its offered players flock to it. Must be a reason in their somewhere. The Summer/Winter system is not the answer because the summer scene is way too cutthroat for most people. I know there are no easy answers, That's why I keep asking

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:43 pm

Great model. Except the allstar teams play tier 1. The other kids play in-house. Each FL elementry [7 total] has a team, two from NB,three from CL, two from pine city, one from Rush city per age group. Play each team three times. No D2 bxllshxt. No mn hockey. No usa hockey. Way cheaper kids play w/classmates,less travel. Pick said "allstars" a couple times a year so the kids keep working to get better. Still having time to go snowmobling,sking,ice fishing whatever,and enjoy the great game of hockey!!!!!!!

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:46 pm

old goalie85 wrote:Great model. Except the allstar teams play tier 1. The other kids play in-house. Each FL elementry [7 total] has a team, two from NB,three from CL, two from pine city, one from Rush city per age group. Play each team three times. No D2 bxllshxt. No mn hockey. No usa hockey. Way cheaper kids play w/classmates,less travel. Pick said "allstars" a couple times a year so the kids keep working to get better. Still having time to go snowmobling,sking,ice fishing whatever,and enjoy the great game of hockey!!!!!!!

Kinda described Little League baseball. Parents don't really like Little League where I live, preferring "travel ball" which has no single governing body.

Funny your post cites no MAHA and no AHAUS...they would LOVE for hockey to be run the way you describe!

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:55 pm

Same set-up we use for football w/out the allstars[tier 1 or whatever you care to call them] No need for district 2, mn hockey, if you want to scrimmage someone , nobody can say any thing to you. They have no authority.

Night Train · Post by **Night Train** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:55 pm

District 10 on the other hand sends kids to state with out any help.

In D10 only players in associations not offering A. Or, associations that shouldn't be offering A. Draw the line where you want. Every Associations recruiting improves once this option is available.

Great model. Except the allstar teams play tier 1. The other kids play in-house. Each FL elementry [7 total] has a team, two from NB,three from CL, two from pine city, one from Rush city per age group. Play each team three times. No D2 bxllshxt. No mn hockey. No usa hockey. Way cheaper kids play w/classmates,less travel. Pick said "allstars" a couple times a year so the kids keep working to get better. Still having time to go snowmobling,sking,ice fishing whatever,and enjoy the great game of hockey!!!!!!!

You're all over the board here. Part of what you described is C level hockey and it's already available in D10. If you want to cut the C level commitment in half then take a proposal to your Association President. I think a better option, for what you described, is Minnesota Hockey has formed a Rec League and parks already supply teams to the League. Kinda like the former Squirt Leagues in Duluth. That takes members, and revenue, from the Forest Lake Youth Association though.

Think about what you can do to improve the situation today.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:01 pm

MrBoDangles wrote:
spin-o-rama wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:What about the phenom kid in Pine City, MN that wants to stay going to school with his friends? Could he live out his Hockey goals and still be with his friends if he had a tier1 option at the NSC?
Just curious, what makes you think the NSC tier 1 team will have a spot for the Pine City kid? How many Tier 1 teams limit their geographical recruiting area in order to pick up the small town kids? That NSC tier 1 team may fill up with kids from outside MN.

It's only 10 more miles from Pine City to Somerset than to the NSC. Why not just play there?
I said phenom.....

Maybe because it's 10 miles closer and a half hour faster (35w?). There are quite a few small association district 10 kids that play for the fire. Somerset is not driveable for many in the state... but that's not the point.

Christian Isaakson is a good example.... Pine City kid. Left as a Bantam so he would become a blip on the radar. Phenom? Small town kid? He felt he had to leave his lifelong friends for Hockey.

Anders Lee..... St Francis kid. Left in Squirts for greener Hockey pastures.

Blake Hienrich.... Cambridge kid. One of the group that left for Hockey opportunities.... Freshman starter for Blaine, Jesse Norling, was another from this group. You'll be hearing about this group as they're getting a little older.

North Branch kid that has played for the Fire the last few years... NOW he had to say goodbye to his classmates because he's entering HS age. Heading to Hill.

Benik toughed it out. Everyone said he wasn't legit...... He was the BCHL rookie of the year. The couple Shattuck guys on the team didn't come close.

And there are plenty more.

Yes, small town kids. They wouldn't need recruiting to make the team.

Quasar · Post by **Quasar** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:30 pm

MrBoDangles wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:
spin-o-rama wrote: Just curious, what makes you think the NSC tier 1 team will have a spot for the Pine City kid? How many Tier 1 teams limit their geographical recruiting area in order to pick up the small town kids? That NSC tier 1 team may fill up with kids from outside MN.

It's only 10 more miles from Pine City to Somerset than to the NSC. Why not just play there?
I said phenom.....

Maybe because it's 10 miles closer and a half hour faster (35w?). There are quite a few small association district 10 kids that play for the fire. Somerset is not driveable for many in the state... but that's not the point.
Christian Isaakson is a good example.... Pine City kid. Left as a Bantam so he would become a blip on the radar. Phenom? Small town kid? He felt he had to leave his lifelong friends for Hockey.

Anders Lee..... St Francis kid. Left in Squirts for greener Hockey pastures.

Blake Hienrich.... Cambridge kid. One of the group that left for Hockey opportunities.... Freshman starter for Blaine, Jesse Norling, was another from this group. You'll be hearing about this group as they're getting a little older.

North Branch kid that has played for the Fire the last few years... NOW he had to say goodbye to his classmates because he's entering HS age. Heading to Hill.

Benik toughed it out. Everyone said he wasn't legit...... He was the BCHL rookie of the year. The couple Shattuck guys on the team didn't come close.

And there are plenty more.

Yes, small town kids. They wouldn't need recruiting to make the team.

This may be a bit of a stretch ….But

Bobby Orr Parry Sound, Ontario Scoring leader 70/71 139 points not bad for a defenseman
Wayne Gretzky Brantford, Ontario 85/86 215 points never been topped
Sidney Crosby Cole Harbour, Nova Scotia 06/07 120 points a lot more to come

Small town kids all … of course they all had to leave home because they didn’t have a Super rink 15 minutes away.

Neuuman · Post by **Neuuman** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:32 pm

nahc wrote:One of the earlier posts mentioned Justin Kloos as the 3rd leading scorer in the State last year. Remember, we are talking about POINTS, ie goals AND assists. Justin played on elite teams his whole career and would NOT be "buried" on a third line in Edina, Wyazata or anywhere else......he is that good of an overall player........Justin may be the exception though....

Have to agree - 3rd in regular season points, first in regular season points in AA, first overall in total points (reg. season and playoffs combined), U of M scholarship in hand before his senior year, tied for 3rd in Elite league scoring in 2010, I don't think there was a team in the state on which Justin would have been "buried" on the third line. He led a respectable AA metro conference in scoring by a margin of 20 points - 33% more points than the second leading scorer(s). It seems if you're not 6 feet tall and 190 lbs. or if you don't play in the lake conference you don't get too much respect. Based on what I've heard, and with a U of M scholarship in hand, college scouts don't see it that way. IMHO

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 10:53 pm

Neuuman wrote:
nahc wrote:One of the earlier posts mentioned Justin Kloos as the 3rd leading scorer in the State last year. Remember, we are talking about POINTS, ie goals AND assists. Justin played on elite teams his whole career and would NOT be "buried" on a third line in Edina, Wyazata or anywhere else......he is that good of an overall player........Justin may be the exception though....
Have to agree - 3rd in regular season points, first in regular season points in AA, first overall in total points (reg. season and playoffs combined), U of M scholarship in hand before his senior year, tied for 3rd in Elite league scoring in 2010, I don't think there was a team in the state on which Justin would have been "buried" on the third line. He led a respectable AA metro conference in scoring by a margin of 20 points - 33% more points than the second leading scorer(s). It seems if you're not 6 feet tall and 190 lbs. or if you don't play in the lake conference you don't get too much respect. Based on what I've heard, and with a U of M scholarship in hand, college scouts don't see it that way. IMHO

Great player!!!

I think the point the original poster was trying to make was that he could of got lost in the shuffle in his youth years.
We were originally all trying to figure out if kids, like Kloos, developed quicker being a big fish in a smaller pond(not the best example for being small) than the likes of Edina..... Then it went in many different direction.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:09 pm

When thinking abouit it, Edina seems to be a perfect example of having star power sucked out of kids..... With such a powerful high school team you would think they would have more NHL players that would be household names across the country. Not the case. They put out a few good D-1 players...... but how about the world class player?

People can say it takes a lot of ingredients to build a world class player. Well then, what ingredients do the past Edina kids have missing?

* I know there's been a few from Edina to make the NHL, but where's the star power? With the program Edina has you would think there would be more representation.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:01 am

bo- I was thinking today, If we had a kid from Nb, two from CL /one frompine/rush and what ever, I think those kids would end up being big playas.I think those top end kids from small assc. would turn some heads off the get go. BUT after getting comfrotable[sp?] w/ the other six FL kids they would move to new levels in hockey. Not to mention getten what is theirs! O.k. now I've talked like a kid!!! Now as an adult. Why can't they!!! When I read your list it made me think of FL a long time ago. Why would any high school coach want this you might ask?? because the top end kids don't really play w/the rest of the team anyway. UNLESS OF COURSE they had fresh comp around them.