The ADM Question

[Quasar]

The question is … How does Minnesota fit into the future of youth hockey as defined by USA hockey’s ADM (American Development Model).

With the approval of the peewee checking portion of the ADM it’s pretty obvious that The ADM is now the operational plan for the future as far as USA hockey is concerned. It is my opinion that the end game is the replacement of tier 1 AAA hockey with the USA hockey HPC (High performance Club)s.
It is the stated goal of USA hockey to have at least 35 HPC clubs within 5 years. The target for Minnesota is three (3) clubs.

As near as I can tell based on conversations with some of the movers and shakers of the summer AAA scene it is their opinion that somehow the high performance clubs will come from the private hockey clubs. Hard to see how at the moment given Minnesota hockey’s insistence that nothing other than association hockey can be played in Minnesota during the winter season.

The rub is that the ADM at the HPC level, the last year of peewee in Minnesota and Bantam minor in the rest of the world, calls for a year around schedule with way more total on ice hours and games than the 35 or so that Minnesota hockey deems adequate. My opinion is that Minnesota hockey can solve the problem by authorizing high performance clubs at the District level.. These HPC’s would draw from all the kids in the district, and would play the USA hockey National HPC schedule.

So what do you think? Are the High Performance Clubs going to be part of Minnesota hockey, or.. will the privately owned for profit clubs finally be able to play their games in the winter. It’s something all Mite parents should be thinking about because it is going to effect your children when they reach the Bantam level.

[spin-o-rama]

The rub is that the ADM at the HPC level, the last year of peewee in Minnesota and Bantam minor in the rest of the world, calls for a year around schedule with way more total on ice hours and games than the 35 or so that Minnesota hockey deems adequate.

Where does MH state that 35 games is adequate for PW-Ban aged kids? I don't know any PWA or BA team that played less than 50 games last winter season. Add in a few summer games, and the current situation more than doubles what your claim is. Minnesota does not have a problem with kids getting enough ice - for games or practices.

[Quasar]

The rub is that the ADM at the HPC level, the last year of peewee in Minnesota and Bantam minor in the rest of the world, calls for a year around schedule with way more total on ice hours and games than the 35 or so that Minnesota hockey deems adequate.

Where does MH state that 35 games is adequate for PW-Ban aged kids? I don't know any PWA or BA team that played less than 50 games last winter season. Add in a few summer games, and the current situation more than doubles what your claim is. Minnesota does not have a problem with kids getting enough ice - for games or practices.

Yes you are correct. 35 is probably too low.. Read the HPC training regimen for Bantams and let me know how you think that will fit.. There are actually teams that are playing 75 or more games at the youth level if you count scrimmages etc. The point is .. it all goes away at 15 years of age. Am I wrong about this?

[luckyEPDad]

How many kids are rostered for three USA Hockey HPC clubs? Isn't that number so small that it wouldn't have any noticable effect on Minnesota Hockey?

[mnhcp]

The rub is that the ADM at the HPC level, the last year of peewee in Minnesota and Bantam minor in the rest of the world, calls for a year around schedule with way more total on ice hours and games than the 35 or so that Minnesota hockey deems adequate.

Where does MH state that 35 games is adequate for PW-Ban aged kids? I don't know any PWA or BA team that played less than 50 games last winter season. Add in a few summer games, and the current situation more than doubles what your claim is. Minnesota does not have a problem with kids getting enough ice - for games or practices.

There might be a couple of the larger associations that are able to field an HPC style club within it and go into the mix. I do not think that the major issue is going to be ice times or games I think it will be getting a strong enough pool of kids to field an HPC style team. The only way that is going to happen (outside of OMG, Edina, etc) is going to be for the association hockey rules to either loosen way up or to go away so that those one or two strong kids that most associations have to be able to go outside of the association to get onto a team. Either way association hockey which is what MH Hockey has staked it future on is gone. It would be possible for a district to put together a district wide HPC team but with only three targeted for MN that is going to get nasty too. Once again maybe three of the districts will be able to even create a district wide HPC that is strong enough to be viable on a national scene which is going to leave kids in the outlying districts out of the mix which will result in problems. Look at what happened with the advanced 15 teams that were generated this spring. In lots of cases either the best kids did not tryout or did not make the team for what ever reason. If the ADM HPC team format comes to MN the association/district model we use now is dead.

"My opinion is that Minnesota hockey can solve the problem by authorizing high performance clubs at the District level" per Quasor. I concur.

[spin-o-rama]

The rub is that the ADM at the HPC level, the last year of peewee in Minnesota and Bantam minor in the rest of the world, calls for a year around schedule with way more total on ice hours and games than the 35 or so that Minnesota hockey deems adequate. My opinion is that Minnesota hockey can solve the problem by authorizing high performance clubs at the District level..

Where does MH state that 35 games is adequate for PW-Ban aged kids? I don't know any PWA or BA team that played less than 50 games last winter season. Add in a few summer games, and the current situation more than doubles what your claim is. Minnesota does not have a problem with kids getting enough ice - for games or practices.

Yes you are correct. 35 is probably too low.. Read the HPC training regimen for Bantams and let me know how you think that will fit.. There are actually teams that are playing 75 or more games at the youth level if you count scrimmages etc. The point is .. it all goes away at 15 years of age. Am I wrong about this?

You stated the "rub" or problem was with the last year of MN PWA eligibility. Then you stated a blatant mistruth to back it up. Now you are recanting and saying the problem is at age 15, 3 years later than you originally claimed.
Perhaps you should cancel the thread and start over.

[Quasar]

I would just like to restate the premise of this thread.

The ADM/HPC will be here. It's not a matter of if, It's a matter of when, and what it is going to look like.

So the question is ..How are we going to deal with it?

[Quasar]

Where does MH state that 35 games is adequate for PW-Ban aged kids? I don't know any PWA or BA team that played less than 50 games last winter season. Add in a few summer games, and the current situation more than doubles what your claim is. Minnesota does not have a problem with kids getting enough ice - for games or practices.

Yes you are correct. 35 is probably too low.. Read the HPC training regimen for Bantams and let me know how you think that will fit.. There are actually teams that are playing 75 or more games at the youth level if you count scrimmages etc. The point is .. it all goes away at 15 years of age. Am I wrong about this?

You stated the "rub" or problem was with the last year of MN PWA eligibility. Then you stated a blatant mistruth to back it up. Now you are recanting and saying the problem is at age 15, 3 years later than you originally claimed.
Perhaps you should cancel the thread and start over.

Perhaps if you have nothing constructive to to add you should just go away.. or maybe answer the question.

[spin-o-rama]

Yes you are correct. 35 is probably too low.. Read the HPC training regimen for Bantams and let me know how you think that will fit.. There are actually teams that are playing 75 or more games at the youth level if you count scrimmages etc. The point is .. it all goes away at 15 years of age. Am I wrong about this?

You stated the "rub" or problem was with the last year of MN PWA eligibility. Then you stated a blatant mistruth to back it up. Now you are recanting and saying the problem is at age 15, 3 years later than you originally claimed.
Perhaps you should cancel the thread and start over.

Perhaps if you have nothing constructive to to add you should just go away.. or maybe answer the question.

All your fears that MN PWA players have a huge disadvantage were revealed to be wrong. I call that constructive. You can thank me anytime.
PS don't start a Chicken Little claim about post bantams. Do a little research first.

[greybeard58]

Rather than ask the question here, the place to get answers was last weekend at the Mn Hockey meeting. The will take questions during the committee meetings, and since Mn Hockey will be in charge for their USA District they might already have some plans on the table.

[Quasar]

Rather than ask the question here, the place to get answers was last weekend at the Mn Hockey meeting. The will take questions during the committee meetings, and since Mn Hockey will be in charge for their USA District they might already have some plans on the table.

Your right, this is not the place to get anything done, but it is A place to ask the questions. Hopefully Minnesota hockey has some kind of plan for the future. If they do, perhaps someone over there should figure out how to post on this forum so the rest of us could know what they're thinking about.

Maybe if enough information gets out there people with kids in the program could start making decisions about how they are going to deal with the changes coming down the road ..

[Pens4]

I don't remember a time this board went so over-the-top after an NHL draft...if MN is taking its lack of 1st rounders this hard....The Soviet parents must be enjoying Vancouver-like rioting.

[Quasar]

There might be a couple of the larger associations that are able to field an HPC style club within it and go into the mix. I do not think that the major issue is going to be ice times or games I think it will be getting a strong enough pool of kids to field an HPC style team. The only way that is going to happen (outside of OMG, Edina, etc) is going to be for the association hockey rules to either loosen way up or to go away so that those one or two strong kids that most associations have to be able to go outside of the association to get onto a team. Either way association hockey which is what MH Hockey has staked it future on is gone. It would be possible for a district to put together a district wide HPC team but with only three targeted for MN that is going to get nasty too. Once again maybe three of the districts will be able to even create a district wide HPC that is strong enough to be viable on a national scene which is going to leave kids in the outlying districts out of the mix which will result in problems. Look at what happened with the advanced 15 teams that were generated this spring. In lots of cases either the best kids did not tryout or did not make the team for what ever reason. If the ADM HPC team format comes to MN the association/district model we use now is dead.

"My opinion is that Minnesota hockey can solve the problem by authorizing high performance clubs at the District level" per Quasor. I concur.

Won't work. The premise of an HPC is to have a high performance team capable of competing on a national level. We in MN have 2 or 3 districts with the talent and the depth to form a team like that organically. We had districts who had to go outside of the district to fill an Advanced 15 team to be able to go to the district tourney. The only way it will work is for MN Hockey to throw open the door and say "we are gonna have three HPC teams this year in the state of MN". When they do that they will have to allow all of the eligible kids compete for those slots on a state wide basis. It will be the exact opposite of association hockey. Your association will now be faced with the prospect of losing it's top youth players to an HPC so it is going to have to scramble to keep them.

Do you think there are going to be HPC in Minnesota?

If you do, do you think they have to be made up of Minnesota kids?
Do you think Minnesota hockey wil leave USA hockey and go it alone.?
If your answer is no .. How are they going to have High performance clubs without ruffling some feathers? Also I think you are underestimating the talent in the different districts. I will admit that the traditional A B C will be effected at the top But whats the alternative ?

[Ugottobekiddingme]

There will be HPC in MN, the question is will MN Hockey guide them into place and use them as the flagships of MN Hockey that they could be and should be or are they going to be brought in against the wishes of MN Hockey? I hope that MN Hockey recognizes the fact that even though the association model of hockey that we have had Since the Beginning of Time affords them the control that they like over hockey in MN it's days are numbered. HPCs, year around AAA teams and etc are coming to MN sooner rather than later. Feathers are going to be ruffled, oxen are going to be gored and feelings are going to be hurt but it is coming.

The biggest question of all is will the adults be running the program? Take a look at the summer AAA landscape. Do we want that for our winter hockey too? The problem with the summer program is not that we have such disparity amongst the teams but rather the fact that the inmates are running the asylum. There is no control. I am hesitant to use the "A" word here but it is .... well .... anarchy, there is no controlling authority. It is the wild west and the Sheriff is down town at Miss Kitty's. MN Hockey has to get control of this coming wave for the good of all. Yes, association hockey is a goner, it was a good idea back in the day when mobility, money and information was in short supply, it's days are numbered and now the next best deal called the ADM is coming to town. Can MN Hockey adapt? Maybe maybe not. I hope that they at least try. Take a look at life in a youth hockey program in another state. The associations or clubs are ran differently than our associations are. That is what is coming here and the HPCs are just the nose of the camel sliding under the tent flap.

Excellent response...Europe, Canada, and MN hockey with other controlling factions don't control a youth program for our community... direction is controlled by "us" and the "system" should expect change...or rely on the status quo.

[black sheep]

so with HPC's likely...

how will they be funded, practices, seasons, any ideas?

I can see how HPC's would work in populated areas but how will this work outstate?

[Quasar]

so with HPC's likely...

how will they be funded, practices, seasons, any ideas?

I can see how HPC's would work in populated areas but how will this work outstate?

This is a big question mark. Even though there will be many problems to overcome in the Metro, distance isn't one of them. I don't know how it would work in District 16. Perhaps someone more familiar with the outstate areas both North and South has some suggestions . Funding would be pretty much the same as it is now. The check would just go to a different place. I'm guessing the season would coincide with USA hockey. In my vision of district teams practice would be at different rinks throughout the district. But that's just what I think. The great thing about this forum is that we can all chime in. I think it's important to know how a wide variety of people feel about this. Informed decisions are always better that shooting from the hip. I do believe that everyone has to be involved, and everyone needs a way to participate. Be that Edina, or Silver Bay...

[luckyEPDad]

I didn't realize hockey is only for kids who will go on to play in the NHL. No wonder the girls get no respect.

Nobody answered my question about how many kids are rostered for three HPC hockey clubs. If you pull those kids from all round the state how much effect does it have on the numbers playing? Associations may need to broaden their sweep looking for more players. More kids playing hockey in the state, even if only a few are playing at the "highest" level, is a good thing, right?

As I see it, Minnesota isn't top at devoping hockey talent mostly because the pool of players is too small. I don't know about all associations, but Eden Prairie is not going out of their way to spread the word. My daughter's playing because my soccer co-coach's daughter was playing and I thought it would be more fun to watch hockey than basketball. I had to drag her to the first few practices. Now, for her, hockey is life.

Is a little guy like Kyle Rau the best player EP could produce last year? Maybe, but maybe not. EP is a big association, but the number of kids playing hockey is a small percentage of the population. Hockey is not for everyone, but you know there's got to be hundreds of potentially great players that never laced up skates. As has already been mentioned, Minnesota needs to provide more opportunity not only at the high end, but also at a recreational level. Catch more fish to improve your chances at catching the big fish. If nothing else you have a lot more hockey fans to help produce the next generation of hockey players.

[royals dad]

If you look at the Advance 15s that made the New York team and alternates and assume those kids would be close to the roster of 2 of the 3 HPC teams you can see that there would be some small associations that would get hit hard but for the most part it will not devastate association hockey. Expand it out another 17 kids and we may have 3 strong competitive teams. If USA hockey governs it and limits it to 3 teams from the state I think it will not be that detrimental to MN Hockey.

The logistics of 75 games in a 53 team national league with only 5 or 6 teams within 500 miles seems a bit scary. I hate to think of what it would cost and will not be happy if we all have to supplement the cost with higher fees on the non HPC families.

[Quasar]

I didn't realize hockey is only for kids who will go on to play in the NHL. No wonder the girls get no respect.

Nobody answered my question about how many kids are rostered for three HPC hockey clubs. If you pull those kids from all round the state how much effect does it have on the numbers playing? Associations may need to broaden their sweep looking for more players. More kids playing hockey in the state, even if only a few are playing at the "highest" level, is a good thing, right?

As I see it, Minnesota isn't top at devoping hockey talent mostly because the pool of players is too small. I don't know about all associations, but Eden Prairie is not going out of their way to spread the word. My daughter's playing because my soccer co-coach's daughter was playing and I thought it would be more fun to watch hockey than basketball. I had to drag her to the first few practices. Now, for her, hockey is life.

Is a little guy like Kyle Rau the best player EP could produce last year? Maybe, but maybe not. EP is a big association, but the number of kids playing hockey is a small percentage of the population. Hockey is not for everyone, but you know there's got to be hundreds of potentially great players that never laced up skates. As has already been mentioned, Minnesota needs to provide more opportunity not only at the high end, but also at a recreational level. Catch more fish to improve your chances at catching the big fish. If nothing else you have a lot more hockey fans to help produce the next generation of hockey players.

LEPD,

This is a great post. When we start with the premise of the high performance club we tend to only talk about a few kids. First, Tier 1 clubs tend to have 15 kids, so it would be around 45 kids total.

The pool seems to keep getting smaller. I think expense is the first hurdle to overcome. Next, when I was a kid (a long time ago) There were outdoor rinks in every Mpls park. Usually it was just a space with a railroad tie at each but it end worked great, and it was free. All you had to do was throw your skates around your neck and hike down to the closest park. I think that something could be done at the district level to encourage higher participation. Like maybe a percentage of the money they collect could go toward cheaper ice for new kids. It's too bad the outdoor rinks are pretty much gone... Many of today's Dads will never get to be "Hosers".

I'm sure that every community out there could produce at least one hockey super star if there was a way to get them to try this great game.

Girls get respect from me. Quite a few female athletes in my extended family. and there were two hockey players book ended by a bevy of soccer players.

I tend to rant and rave about the lack of opportunity for a few top end players, but I totally agree with the notion that the sport is what it is today because of all the recreational players and their parents that keep the whole thing alive and well. I hope your daughter keeps with it. One of the girls I mentioned played in college. There is no way to describe how great that is !!!

[Quasar]

If you look at the Advance 15s that made the New York team and alternates and assume those kids would be close to the roster of 2 of the 3 HPC teams you can see that there would be some small associations that would get hit hard but for the most part it will not devastate association hockey. Expand it out another 17 kids and we may have 3 strong competitive teams. If USA hockey governs it and limits it to 3 teams from the state I think it will not be that detrimental to MN Hockey.

The logistics of 75 games in a 53 team national league with only 5 or 6 teams within 500 miles seems a bit scary. I hate to think of what it would cost and will not be happy if we all have to supplement the cost with higher fees on the non HPC families.

I don't think the HPC should be paid for by anyone not involved in the league. Hopefully some of that initial eight million dollars from the NHL, and some continued donation, could off set some of the expense. However it is set up, no one should have to pay a cent unless they're in the program

[old goalie85]

I can't afford my five hockey players. Why would I be interested in paying for someone from Edina's kid????????? Yea right !!!!! People have lost their minds, I thinks the idea of choice is fine!! But we should pay our own way..........You want your kid to fly around the country playing hockey thats cool with me. You pay for it.....

[O-townClown]

I can't afford my five hockey players. Why would I be interested in paying for someone from Edina's kid????????? Yea right !!!!! People have lost their minds, I thinks the idea of choice is fine!! But we should pay our own way..........You want your kid to fly around the country playing hockey thats cool with me. You pay for it.....

Old, I think HPC will be subsidized by the NHL grant money.

Hockey in the U.S. has a pay-to-play mentality, so I think you're safe. Club soccer, on the other hand, seems to be run much differently. Coaches are paid. A recreational base in essence is taxed to reduce the burden borne by those who actually receive the training.

[Ugottobekiddingme]

I can't afford my five hockey players. Why would I be interested in paying for someone from Edina's kid????????? Yea right !!!!! People have lost their minds, I thinks the idea of choice is fine!! But we should pay our own way..........You want your kid to fly around the country playing hockey thats cool with me. You pay for it.....

Old, I think HPC will be subsidized by the NHL grant money.

Hockey in the U.S. has a pay-to-play mentality, so I think you're safe. Club soccer, on the other hand, seems to be run much differently. Coaches are paid. A recreational base in essence is taxed to reduce the burden borne by those who actually receive the training.

What??

[royals dad]

I can't afford my five hockey players. Why would I be interested in paying for someone from Edina's kid????????? Yea right !!!!! People have lost their minds, I thinks the idea of choice is fine!! But we should pay our own way..........You want your kid to fly around the country playing hockey thats cool with me. You pay for it.....

Old, I think HPC will be subsidized by the NHL grant money.

Hockey in the U.S. has a pay-to-play mentality, so I think you're safe. Club soccer, on the other hand, seems to be run much differently. Coaches are paid. A recreational base in essence is taxed to reduce the burden borne by those who actually receive the training.

Who funds the kids in NDP, they have ice every day, professional coaches, trainers, meals, travel world wide, and nice equipment. I don't think they bring in any significant gate revenue. I have never researched it but have always thought that at least some of the funding comes from player and coach annual dues, is that incorrect?

[old goalie85]

Thats a good ?, at least those are highschool aged kids. [ that I don't want to pay for] Can you imagine paying for pee-wees that havn't reached puberty yet???