Development Opinions

[MrBoDangles]

Minnesota's 30+ point representation this year

David Backes 62 pts Spring Lake Park/Class A
Dustin Byfulglien 53 pts Roseau/Tier 1/Outstate
Alex Goligoski 46 pts Grand Rapids/Outstate
Derek Stepan 45 pts Tier 1 Shattuck
Blake Wheeler 44 pts Breck - Class A
Matt Cullen 39 pts Moorhead/Outstate
Jordan Leopold 36 pts Armstrong/ big fish in smaller pond?
Jason Blake 36 pts Moorhead/ Outstate
TJ Oshie 34 pts Tier 1/Warroad/Outstate
Jamie Langenbrunner 32 pts Cloquet/Outstate

Metro -AA- Powerhouse programs seem to be missing representation.

The kicker is that I'm pretty sure David Backes was only offered B level Hockey at Spring Lake Park.......

Edina High School's best NHL representation

Craig Norwich (born 1955) 104 GAMES played 75 pts
Ben Hankinson (1969) 43 games played 6 pts
Brad Defauw (1977) 9 gp 3pts

*Moorhead had four in the NHL this year.

[HockeyDad41]

Interesting. You never know where the ones that make it to the top are going to come from. You would think a bunch would come out of the Edina-like programs.

[MrBoDangles]

/chugga chugga
/chugga chugga

Wooooooooooo!
Wooooooooooo!

[spin-o-rama]

Minnesota's 30+ point representation this year

David Backes 62 pts Spring Lake Park/Class A
Dustin Byfulglien 53 pts Roseau/Tier 1/Outstate
Alex Goligoski 46 pts Grand Rapids/Outstate
Derek Stepan 45 pts Tier 1 Shattuck
Blake Wheeler 44 pts Breck - Class A
Matt Cullen 39 pts Moorhead/Outstate
Jordan Leopold 36 pts Armstrong/ big fish in smaller pond?
Jason Blake 36 pts Moorhead/ Outstate
TJ Oshie 34 pts Tier 1/Warroad/Outstate
Jamie Langenbrunner 32 pts Cloquet/Outstate

Metro -AA- Powerhouse programs seem to be missing representation.

The kicker is that I'm pretty sure David Backes was only offered B level Hockey at Spring Lake Park.......

Edina High School's best NHL representation

Craig Norwich (born 1955) 104 GAMES played 75 pts
Ben Hankinson (1969) 43 games played 6 pts
Brad Defauw (1977) 9 gp 3pts

*Moorhead had four in the NHL this year.

So now the question is how do we help out the poor underprivileged kids from the mega-associations?

Should we conclude from your findings that small town hockey does not hold kids back?

The mega-associations everyone refers to (Wayzata, Edina) have about 4% of the MN players. It is about a 15% chance that they'll have someone in the top 10 listed above, yet they do with Wheeler.

There might be a few more Edina players that have played in the NHL, FYI, Ben has a brother who did. Edina has about 2% of the MN kids registered with USA hockey. So to have roughly 2% of the 200 all time NHL players is about right.

[MrBoDangles]

Minnesota's 30+ point representation this year

David Backes 62 pts Spring Lake Park/Class A
Dustin Byfulglien 53 pts Roseau/Tier 1/Outstate
Alex Goligoski 46 pts Grand Rapids/Outstate
Derek Stepan 45 pts Tier 1 Shattuck
Blake Wheeler 44 pts Breck - Class A
Matt Cullen 39 pts Moorhead/Outstate
Jordan Leopold 36 pts Armstrong/ big fish in smaller pond?
Jason Blake 36 pts Moorhead/ Outstate
TJ Oshie 34 pts Tier 1/Warroad/Outstate
Jamie Langenbrunner 32 pts Cloquet/Outstate

Metro -AA- Powerhouse programs seem to be missing representation.

The kicker is that I'm pretty sure David Backes was only offered B level Hockey at Spring Lake Park.......

Edina High School's best NHL representation

Craig Norwich (born 1955) 104 GAMES played 75 pts
Ben Hankinson (1969) 43 games played 6 pts
Brad Defauw (1977) 9 gp 3pts

*Moorhead had four in the NHL this year.

So now the question is how do we help out the poor underprivileged kids from the mega-associations?

Should we conclude from your findings that small town hockey does not hold kids back?

The mega-associations everyone refers to (Wayzata, Edina) have about 4% of the MN players. It is less than a 50% chance that they'll have someone in the top 10 listed above, yet they do with Wheeler.

There might be a few more Edina players that have played in the NHL, FYI, Ben has a brother who did. Edina has about 2% of the MN kids registered with USA hockey. So to have roughly 2% of the 200 all time NHL players is about right.

Hey Spin, I'm just trying to find answers.

- My question was if being in a small pond helped.

- They are very dominating youth associations.

Moorhead has four this year and plenty former players

- His brother had 1 point... I was showing the drop. The numbers for those type of MEGA programs are very low.

[darkhorse]

Interesting. You never know where the ones that make it to the top are going to come from. You would think a bunch would come out of the Edina-like programs.

Goes to show how much of a difference there is between levels and the growth/development rate these kids need to continue to make it to the NHL. Every level of advancement closes the gap and significantly consolidates the top talent, the difference of making it or not can come down to the slightest details.

Maybe we'll see a little more success at the top level from Edina kids with up and coming prospects like Anders Lee, Fogarty, Everson. They have a long way to go but getting drafted is the first step.

[spin-o-rama]

Hey Spin, I'm just trying to find answers.

- My question was if being in a small pond helped.

- They are very dominating youth associations. Moorhead has four this year and plenty former players

- His brother had 1 point... I was showing the drop. The numbers for those type of MEGA programs are ver low.

Big fish in a small pond doesn't hurt. The 9 of the above referenced top 10 are from smaller or outstate associations. Sure there are small town situations that are far from ideal, but that happens in the big associations, too.

A small town kid with big potential might have to play on B1, a similar Edina kid might have started slowly, maybe bumped by a move in (Anders Lee or John Madden's kid) and have to play B1. There is also a difference. The small towner will be the star, the go-to guy. He will get double shifted, maybe be on a 10-12 man squad - playing maybe more that 1/2 the game. The Edina kid will be slotted with 15 other similar kids. Next to no extra ice time, 1/3 playing time. Not have the challenge to be the go-to guy.

O-town is an Edina guy, but his advice to someone looking where to move was not to choose Edina because you can be buried. Now being a big fish in a dried out pond is a concern.

I imagine most of the 200 MN native NHLers had only cup of coffee careers. I don't see anything out of the ordinary with Edina's performance. But if you think they have underachieved, shed a tear for them and be thankful that your kid plays for a small town.

[MrBoDangles]

Minnesota's 30+ point representation this year

David Backes 62 pts Spring Lake Park/Class A
Dustin Byfulglien 53 pts Roseau/Tier 1/Outstate
Alex Goligoski 46 pts Grand Rapids/Outstate
Derek Stepan 45 pts Tier 1 Shattuck
Blake Wheeler 44 pts Breck - Class A
Matt Cullen 39 pts Moorhead/Outstate
Jordan Leopold 36 pts Armstrong/ big fish in smaller pond?
Jason Blake 36 pts Moorhead/ Outstate
TJ Oshie 34 pts Tier 1/Warroad/Outstate
Jamie Langenbrunner 32 pts Cloquet/Outstate

Metro -AA- Powerhouse programs seem to be missing representation.

The kicker is that I'm pretty sure David Backes was only offered B level Hockey at Spring Lake Park.......

Edina High School's best NHL representation

Craig Norwich (born 1955) 104 GAMES played 75 pts
Ben Hankinson (1969) 43 games played 6 pts
Brad Defauw (1977) 9 gp 3pts

*Moorhead had four in the NHL this year.

So now the question is how do we help out the poor underprivileged kids from the mega-associations?

Should we conclude from your findings that small town hockey does not hold kids back?

The mega-associations everyone refers to (Wayzata, Edina) have about 4% of the MN players. It is about a 15% chance that they'll have someone in the top 10 listed above, yet they do with Wheeler.

There might be a few more Edina players that have played in the NHL, FYI, Ben has a brother who did. Edina has about 2% of the MN kids registered with USA hockey. So to have roughly 2% of the 200 all time NHL players is about right.

Wheeler is actually the best example. He had his breakout year as a junior as he scored 45 goals and had 55 assists to lead the state in scoring. That same year he was able to win the CLASS A State Championship. He also netted a hat trick in the championship game before going off to the NTDP the next year.

Big fish in a smaller(class A) pond

[MrBoDangles]

Hey Spin, I'm just trying to find answers.

- My question was if being in a small pond helped.

- They are very dominating youth associations. Moorhead has four this year and plenty former players

- His brother had 1 point... I was showing the drop. The numbers for those type of MEGA programs are ver low.

Big fish in a small pond doesn't hurt. The 9 of the above referenced top 10 are from smaller or outstate associations. Sure there are small town situations that are far from ideal, but that happens in the big associations, too.

A small town kid with big potential might have to play on B1, a similar Edina kid might have started slowly, maybe bumped by a move in (Anders Lee or John Madden's kid) and have to play B1. There is also a difference. The small towner will be the star, the go-to guy. He will get double shifted, maybe be on a 10-12 man squad - playing maybe more that 1/2 the game. The Edina kid will be slotted with 15 other similar kids. Next to no extra ice time, 1/3 playing time. Not have the challenge to be the go-to guy.

O-town is an Edina guy, but his advice to someone looking where to move was not to choose Edina because you can be buried. Now being a big fish in a dried out pond is a concern.

I imagine most of the 200 MN native NHLers had only cup of coffee careers. I don't see anything out of the ordinary with Edina's performance. But if you think they have underachieved, shed a tear for them and be thankful that your kid plays for a small town.

Great Post!

I'm in a no ice, third world Hockey town, not small Hockey town. I have ways for my sons to make up for it though.

[CHI-TOWN HOCKEYDAD]

Bo, I agree.

What you have described is a localized issue with the association. Minnesota Hockey has an obligation to provide playing opportunities. I see them having a responsibility to provide an environment where all associations can be strong. It is a tall order if they are responsible for making all the weak associations better.

Mergers and co-ops are one solution that works within the existing framework. As we saw with the Minneapolis/Park example, it can be hard to strike a balance that works for everyone.

Mergers and co-ops only work if the association your in gives you a waiver.
Then you can only waiver into another association if they accept your waiver.

The problem is for the exceptional player. The home association doesn't want to lose him... Most other associations that are strong don't want the headaches from the parents in their association if they take him. The week associations would be glad to have him, but if that's the case he might as well stay where he is.

If there was some kind of team that took kids from anywhere as long as they could make the try outs, this kid would have a place to play with his peers. The current system does not allow this

I'm afraid mergers and co-ops don't solve the problem...

Need a private company to step up and provide for the northern suburbs what the Choice League provides for the south and any one willing to drive.

Given how slow anything is to change with our current community based system, I suspect that none of our current skaters will benefit from any of these great ideas. The cynic in me suspects those in power positions at all levels of community based hockey will do nothing to erode their power base.

Personally as long as the goal is met of providing a better avenue of development and competition for the crowd that wants more than the current model allows, I could care less if it's privately run or part of the community based model.

I believe this is the direction the Miracle Gold program at the Super Rink is headed in. United AAA has offered a program for Mites that also fits this model.

[O-townClown]

Wow, did you guys just now figure this out! I've been trying to explain that you can't "prove" that kids are being denied an opportunity if they come from a lesser association.

If you are going to mention NHL players from Edina, let's at least make sure you get the list close to right. There have been some very good ones.

Bill Nyrop - 207 games, 12g/51a from defencse - also 35 playoff games

Paul Ranheim - 1013 games, 161g/199a - also 36 playoff games

Dave Maley - 466 games, 43g/81a - also 46 playoff games

Dan Plante (actually from Hayward, WI) - 159 games, 9g/14a - 1 playoff game

I totally get it if you would just say you want your youth player to have a chance to play on a strong team that wins. My problem is that the argument is made that it's about development and the kids are being held back because of where they play.

It isn't true.

Forget the kids for a second and let's take a long look at our behavior as adults. It's about winning, feeling good about the time we spend, and validating that our kids - and through transfer, us - are special.

Don't hide behind the player development cloak.

[darkhorse]

Hey Spin, I'm just trying to find answers.

- My question was if being in a small pond helped.

- They are very dominating youth associations. Moorhead has four this year and plenty former players

- His brother had 1 point... I was showing the drop. The numbers for those type of MEGA programs are ver low.

Big fish in a small pond doesn't hurt. The 9 of the above referenced top 10 are from smaller or outstate associations. Sure there are small town situations that are far from ideal, but that happens in the big associations, too.

A small town kid with big potential might have to play on B1, a similar Edina kid might have started slowly, maybe bumped by a move in (Anders Lee or John Madden's kid) and have to play B1. There is also a difference. The small towner will be the star, the go-to guy. He will get double shifted, maybe be on a 10-12 man squad - playing maybe more that 1/2 the game. The Edina kid will be slotted with 15 other similar kids. Next to no extra ice time, 1/3 playing time. Not have the challenge to be the go-to guy.

O-town is an Edina guy, but his advice to someone looking where to move was not to choose Edina because you can be buried. Now being a big fish in a dried out pond is a concern.

I imagine most of the 200 MN native NHLers had only cup of coffee careers. I don't see anything out of the ordinary with Edina's performance. But if you think they have underachieved, shed a tear for them and be thankful that your kid plays for a small town.

There are certainly pros/cons to both. You make a good argument for the standout on the smaller market team. That kid has the opportunity to carry his team on his back and will definitely stand out or get noticed. To play devil's advocate though, is that same kid getting pushed hard enough to truly develop to his potential? With only 20-25 games in a high school season the majority of ice time is in practice. The bigger name programs have a higher talent pool which creates more competition within the program. The expected learning curve is set higher and the bar for high end skill is consistently raised.

As the industry of scouting has evolved I would like to believe either of these kids will get noticed, but is that the case? This is similar to the argument for Major-Juniors vs Junior A in Canada. Is it better to be at the higher level of MJ and be more of a role player or is it better to play in Junior A if you can stand out from the pack? At that level I am almost inclined to say the Junior A route is better in that situation. At the youth/high school level though I have to think it would be preferred to be in a situation where you are constantly pushed and challenged by those around you who have skill set similar or better which ultimately will improve your development at a faster rate.

Of course in today's world with all the non-winter season training/leagues there is plenty of opportunity to have development needs met in either situation.

[greybeard58]

David Backes played on the Spring Lake Park A Bantam team.

[greybeard58]

Bill Nyrop also played for the Montreal Canadians and was on 3 Stanley Cup Championship teams.

[Quasar]

Only two Minnesotans in the top 100 all time NHL scorers

Phil Housley #37 ….. 1,232 career points St. Paul

Neal Broten #90 ….. 923 Career points ... Roseau,

[spin-o-rama]

Hey Spin, I'm just trying to find answers.

- My question was if being in a small pond helped.

- They are very dominating youth associations. Moorhead has four this year and plenty former players

- His brother had 1 point... I was showing the drop. The numbers for those type of MEGA programs are ver low.

Big fish in a small pond doesn't hurt. The 9 of the above referenced top 10 are from smaller or outstate associations. Sure there are small town situations that are far from ideal, but that happens in the big associations, too.

A small town kid with big potential might have to play on B1, a similar Edina kid might have started slowly, maybe bumped by a move in (Anders Lee or John Madden's kid) and have to play B1. There is also a difference. The small towner will be the star, the go-to guy. He will get double shifted, maybe be on a 10-12 man squad - playing maybe more that 1/2 the game. The Edina kid will be slotted with 15 other similar kids. Next to no extra ice time, 1/3 playing time. Not have the challenge to be the go-to guy.

O-town is an Edina guy, but his advice to someone looking where to move was not to choose Edina because you can be buried. Now being a big fish in a dried out pond is a concern.

I imagine most of the 200 MN native NHLers had only cup of coffee careers. I don't see anything out of the ordinary with Edina's performance. But if you think they have underachieved, shed a tear for them and be thankful that your kid plays for a small town.

There are certainly pros/cons to both. You make a good argument for the standout on the smaller market team. That kid has the opportunity to carry his team on his back and will definitely stand out or get noticed. To play devil's advocate though, is that same kid getting pushed hard enough to truly develop to his potential? With only 20-25 games in a high school season the majority of ice time is in practice. The bigger name programs have a higher talent pool which creates more competition within the program. The expected learning curve is set higher and the bar for high end skill is consistently raised.

As the industry of scouting has evolved I would like to believe either of these kids will get noticed, but is that the case? This is similar to the argument for Major-Juniors vs Junior A in Canada. Is it better to be at the higher level of MJ and be more of a role player or is it better to play in Junior A if you can stand out from the pack? At that level I am almost inclined to say the Junior A route is better in that situation. At the youth/high school level though I have to think it would be preferred to be in a situation where you are constantly pushed and challenged by those around you who have skill set similar or better which ultimately will improve your development at a faster rate.

Of course in today's world with all the non-winter season training/leagues there is plenty of opportunity to have development needs met in either situation.

It is probably better to be on the team that will give you the right game experience. It is easier to supplement less than ideal practices with individual / small group training than to find more games.

The beauty is that there are many different road to success stories.

[MrBoDangles]

Wow, did you guys just now figure this out! I've been trying to explain that you can't "prove" that kids are being denied an opportunity if they come from a lesser association.

If you are going to mention NHL players from Edina, let's at least make sure you get the list close to right. There have been some very good ones.

Bill Nyrop - 207 games, 12g/51a from defencse - also 35 playoff games

Paul Ranheim - 1013 games, 161g/199a - also 36 playoff games

Dave Maley - 466 games, 43g/81a - also 46 playoff games

Dan Plante (actually from Hayward, WI) - 159 games, 9g/14a - 1 playoff game

I totally get it if you would just say you want your youth player to have a chance to play on a strong team that wins. My problem is that the argument is made that it's about development and the kids are being held back because of where they play.

It isn't true.

Forget the kids for a second and let's take a long look at our behavior as adults. It's about winning, feeling good about the time we spend, and validating that our kids - and through transfer, us - are special.

Don't hide behind the player development cloak.

Ya, it took me a while to figure out that associations that have 10 teams per level are REALLY lackiing in developing world class players.

Seems even MORE like walls deny opportunies to have a CHOICE of what type of association best suits them.

[Quasar]

Big fish in a small pond doesn't hurt. The 9 of the above referenced top 10 are from smaller or outstate associations. Sure there are small town situations that are far from ideal, but that happens in the big associations, too.

A small town kid with big potential might have to play on B1, a similar Edina kid might have started slowly, maybe bumped by a move in (Anders Lee or John Madden's kid) and have to play B1. There is also a difference. The small towner will be the star, the go-to guy. He will get double shifted, maybe be on a 10-12 man squad - playing maybe more that 1/2 the game. The Edina kid will be slotted with 15 other similar kids. Next to no extra ice time, 1/3 playing time. Not have the challenge to be the go-to guy.

O-town is an Edina guy, but his advice to someone looking where to move was not to choose Edina because you can be buried. Now being a big fish in a dried out pond is a concern.

I imagine most of the 200 MN native NHLers had only cup of coffee careers. I don't see anything out of the ordinary with Edina's performance. But if you think they have underachieved, shed a tear for them and be thankful that your kid plays for a small town.

There are certainly pros/cons to both. You make a good argument for the standout on the smaller market team. That kid has the opportunity to carry his team on his back and will definitely stand out or get noticed. To play devil's advocate though, is that same kid getting pushed hard enough to truly develop to his potential? With only 20-25 games in a high school season the majority of ice time is in practice. The bigger name programs have a higher talent pool which creates more competition within the program. The expected learning curve is set higher and the bar for high end skill is consistently raised.

As the industry of scouting has evolved I would like to believe either of these kids will get noticed, but is that the case? This is similar to the argument for Major-Juniors vs Junior A in Canada. Is it better to be at the higher level of MJ and be more of a role player or is it better to play in Junior A if you can stand out from the pack? At that level I am almost inclined to say the Junior A route is better in that situation. At the youth/high school level though I have to think it would be preferred to be in a situation where you are constantly pushed and challenged by those around you who have skill set similar or better which ultimately will improve your development at a faster rate.

Of course in today's world with all the non-winter season training/leagues there is plenty of opportunity to have development needs met in either situation.

It is probably better to be on the team that will give you the right game experience. It is easier to supplement less than ideal practices with individual / small group training than to find more games.

The beauty is that there are many different road to success stories.

Spin, I think this is about the closest anyone has come to the answer.
It really is all about being in the best situation for your talent, and then playing as many games as possible...

The Canadians dominate the NHL for a reason..

[MrBoDangles]

David Backes played on the Spring Lake Park A Bantam team.

SLP never played A back in the day. Did Backes carry the A Bantam team on his "Backes"?

How about in PeeWees and Squirts? Did they play A or possibly back and forth as he was the older of the group?

Are you trying to avoid the obvious with your posts?

[O-townClown]

Seems even MORE like walls deny opportunies to have a CHOICE of what type of association best suits them.

I love it. So in speaking up for the 'haves' in the large associations, the folks from the small associations make the case that the proverbial big fish in the small pond has been slighted.

[Quasar]

Seems even MORE like walls deny opportunies to have a CHOICE of what type of association best suits them.

I love it. So in speaking up for the 'haves' in the large associations, the folks from the small associations make the case that the proverbial big fish in the small pond has been slighted.

It's not about haves and have nots, It's not about fish, It's not about parents.. It really is quite simple.. Should a kid have the freedom to play wherever his talent will allow him to make the team?

Why not let the kid from Edina play at Stillwater if he wants?

[MrBoDangles]

Seems even MORE like walls deny opportunies to have a CHOICE of what type of association best suits them.

I love it. So in speaking up for the 'haves' in the large associations, the folks from the small associations make the case that the proverbial big fish in the small pond has been slighted.

Minnesota Hockey sweeps the folks in less than ideal situations(mega or third world) under the rug... The problems exist. You have stated it as fact yourself.

That is why Bernie will win. People like you that think the commune is good for all.

Better options within the tools we have here in Mn would take any need for a Bernie type away..... More games, added practices if wanted, extended seasons, district teams that compete at a national level, etc, etc

I'm all for association Hockey but we need to revamp IT..

Time to head up north and get some sun on this big, white belly. Have a great weekend everyone.

[greybeard58]

Bo,
Better search your memory a bit better. Spring Lake Park fielded a team at the A Bantam level till David Backes left for High school.Spring Lake Park also fielded an A Bantam team 2009-2010,and a Peewee A team in 2004-05,and also 2008-09 till present.I also believe A Squirts for the past few years.

[MrBoDangles]

Bo,
Better search your memory a bit better. Spring Lake Park fielded a team at the A Bantam level till David Backes left for High school.Spring Lake Park also fielded an A Bantam team 2009-2010,and a Peewee A team in 2004-05,and also 2008-09 till present.I also believe A Squirts for the past few years.

Seems to be very in line with what I said, if, they played A Bantams with him and then stopped playing A Bantams when he left... I remember something about him wanting to play with his friends.

Did they offer A's both of his Squirt years and both of his PeeWee years? I was told he played B level Hockey through his youth..?

[greybeard58]

Bo,
Spring Lake Park in the 90's and 80's fielded teams at the A level for Squirt,Peewee and Bantam along with Fridley, Columbia Heights then East River. After David Backes moved on to High school Spring Lake Park started at the Bantam level having a B level teams. They played a couple more years at the A level in both Squirts and Peewees and then about 2002 went all B and now occasionally have participated at the A levels.
The SLP player that player B level all the way through youth and ended up playing hockey at Colorado College was Addision Deboer(sp).