Youth Hockey Hub Rankings: 01-09-12

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:57 pm

Lots of new number 1s this week.

Teases:

People from Elk River will happy, especially if you are a parent of a 6th or 7th grader.

Teams from Princeton, Forest Lake, Farmington and North St. Paul make an appearance.

A Wayzata team puts a claim on #1.

Tough week for Edina number 1s (rankings-wise).

http://youthhockeyhub.com/youth-hockeyrankings/

GTTN · Post by **GTTN** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:06 pm

FYI the dates on top still say 1/2 thru 1/8

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:13 pm

saw that...should say 1-9.

We are in the process of building an online Live Scoring ticker right now (similar to other sports websites)...not sure if that effected the database or the change in year.

Thanks for pointing it out.

PWGUY33 · Post by **PWGUY33** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:51 pm

So lets see:

Elk River gets beat 5-2 on Saturday by Centennial and they move up to #1

Prior Lake get beat 5-2 on Saturday by OMG and moves down 2 spots to #3

These rankings make zero sense.

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:10 pm

Thanks for your post PW33.

Centennial's win over Elk was not in our equation. As we amp up our ranking formula to weight recent wins with more weight this would have been huge foe Centennial and probably bad for ER (we re-calculated it and it was a tie down to the hundredth percentage point between ER and LVS - which if you look at it is almost a direct reflection of the game they played in the Edina invite).

We are only as good as the data we have...sorry.

We received 3 emails today on the same topic if it makes you feel any better we missed that score. Next week's rankings will reflect said game for both teams. We cannot change the ranking after they are posted.

Best Regards,

Tony Scott

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:29 am

I see Farmington squirts are 4th and 6th.

suckholer · Post by **suckholer** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:29 am

I would agree with PW Guy, take a look at the Peewee B1 rankings. Stillwater Black is 7th, their District 2 record is 1-5-2 and are in 10th place out of 12 teams. The one win was against Mounds View who hasn't won a game all year. I've heard they had a good win in a tourney game but you have to consider everything right? Or they are relying on just a couple of rankers.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:30 am

I had a few ?'s on our rankings (B1's) in the past, from time to time.
Having NSP break in to the top 10. Shows some good work on your behalf.
They are a good team. They should be in the top 10. Ranking youth sports isn't easy. On any given day all those teams could be beat. Will your system have a team in the top 8 at the years final rankings, if they don't make state tourney? Keep up the good work.

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 3:23 pm

I'll say this, our formula missed on a couple this week. Sorry. We got torched for not knowing Centennial beat Elk River in PWA (despite there being little evidence anywhere on either team site when any of us or any rankers filled out their rankings). Had we known, we would have had our first tie for first, the score between teams was that close.

We follow a lot of teams and a lot of tournaments each week.

We don't look at other rankings, we have our own database

Our formula is really good at digging out teams that are deserving like NSP in Bantam B1 or which Edina SQB team is the best (out of 6 on the board). We have like 16-20 of their games in our database.

This week we are following nearly 100 teams in 10 tournaments. Our score database gets stronger and stronger each week.

Great question on year end rankings. The state tournament for us will be treated as such:

- State champion and state runner's up are #1 and #2 regardless of year end ranking. Spots 3-10 will default to our ranking formula. Fargo will act as state tournament for squirts and U10 will be year end formula.

Make sense?

silentbutdeadly3139 · Post by **silentbutdeadly3139** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:05 pm

YouthHockeyHub wrote:I'll say this, our formula missed on a couple this week. Sorry. We got torched for not knowing Centennial beat Elk River in PWA (despite there being little evidence anywhere on either team site when any of us or any rankers filled out their rankings). Had we known, we would have had our first tie for first, the score between teams was that close.

We follow a lot of teams and a lot of tournaments each week.

We don't look at other rankings, we have our own database

Our formula is really good at digging out teams that are deserving like NSP in Bantam B1 or which Edina SQB team is the best (out of 6 on the board). We have like 16-20 of their games in our database.

This week we are following nearly 100 teams in 10 tournaments. Our score database gets stronger and stronger each week.

Great question on year end rankings. The state tournament for us will be treated as such:

- State champion and state runner's up are #1 and #2 regardless of year end ranking. Spots 3-10 will default to our ranking formula. Fargo will act as state tournament for squirts and U10 will be year end formula.

Make sense?

Are you aware that some districts conflict with the Fargo tournament and thus teams from those districts can't go to Fargo?

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:30 pm

Fargo: yes, I am aware that some teams will not be there. They will have ample opportunity to play top teams in other tournaments and refereed scrimmages to make their case if they do not go to Fargo.*

I wrote what I wrote because if Edina wins Bloomington and Fargo (which I assume they will), they will be #1. If a Minnesota team runs the gauntlet at Fargo they will deserve the year end #1.

The winner of Fargo needs to go 6-0 in 3 days against teams that are playing their best. Each pod is evenly balanced, so every team gets at least one test in their first two games.

People from our staff have been to Fargo for the last 8 years (myself included)...if you win this tournament, you deserve the #1 ranking.

I realize that a few teams from our T10 won't be there. However, some other nice teams from Canada, North Dakota and Colorado will take their place.

*If we feel a non-Fargo team makes a better case for #1, our rankings will reflect that. For example, if the Grand Forks Blues win Fargo the final #1 may not be the Fargo runner up.

Thanks for the concern and insight....the more we know the better our rankings and eventually the richer the content you the readers receive.

Best Regards,

Tony Scott

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:49 pm

No system is perfect. S_it Happens. I may not always like the ranking order or even the teams ranked. But it's good to have a bias system. I have ranked teams in the previous years and find it hard to see them all play. Making it hard to rank a team if all I get is 2nd hand info. I like to see teams earn their rank, not get it because of where they live or beat up on weak teams and hide from the strong ones. I enjoy hearing PARENTS crab about their kids teams NOT GETTING NO LOVE. They should rank each team #1 each day and print it. So they can put it in a scrap book or on the wall at work.
? for YHH
How can a team not playing in the state tournament, take a higher rank than one playing in the state tournament? Shouldn't they be 1 thru 8.
I think you make state you should be atleast 8th.
Just a ?

GTTN · Post by **GTTN** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:57 pm

How can a team not playing in the state tournament, take a higher rank than one playing in the state tournament? Shouldn't they be 1 thru 8.
I think you make state you should be atleast 8th.
Just a ?

Not all the districts and regions are equal. Last year in D6 PWA they had 5 of the top 10 teams in the state and only 3 make it to regions let alone state. Making state should not make you in the top 8 in my opinion. Most years there are at least one and probably two teams that are not as high end as the top 6 at state. From my experience watching PWA and BA over the years.

Haha this is why people don't usually rank squirts because there are no "real" playoffs. I agree unless something crazy happens the last team standing in Fargo should be end of year # 1.

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:02 pm

Are you saying those teams don't belong at state. They should build a tourney for those who do? So a weak district shouldn't send any teams to regions or state. So should Mn hockey make a district with strong programs break up or move to a different district. So the right teams can go to state? I hear you

silentbutdeadly3139 · Post by **silentbutdeadly3139** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:38 am

HOCKEYDRIVER wrote:No system is perfect. S_it Happens. I may not always like the ranking order or even the teams ranked. But it's good to have a bias system. I have ranked teams in the previous years and find it hard to see them all play. Making it hard to rank a team if all I get is 2nd hand info. I like to see teams earn their rank, not get it because of where they live or beat up on weak teams and hide from the strong ones. I enjoy hearing PARENTS crab about their kids teams NOT GETTING NO LOVE. They should rank each team #1 each day and print it. So they can put it in a scrap book or on the wall at work.
? for YHH
How can a team not playing in the state tournament, take a higher rank than one playing in the state tournament? Shouldn't they be 1 thru 8.
I think you make state you should be atleast 8th.
Just a ?

Its not a state tournament, yout not "making" or earning state but invited and some teams cannot play because they have district tournament which they must play in. but it does carry a lot of wight as most good team will be there

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:59 am

I was talking about peewee's and up.

GTTN · Post by **GTTN** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:11 am

Hockey Driver:

Its just like high school. The sections (or in youth hockey districts) are not equal. In high school section 1AA has been sending teams to state that are right around the .500 win % or in some years under that.

All districts and regions should have a equal shot at making state which is the way it its. We are just saying very rarely is it even close to the top 8 teams who end up at state.

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:18 pm

GTTN wrote:Hockey Driver:

Its just like high school. The sections (or in youth hockey districts) are not equal. In high school section 1AA has been sending teams to state that are right around the .500 win % or in some years under that.

All districts and regions should have a equal shot at making state which is the way it its. We are just saying very rarely is it even close to the top 8 teams who end up at state.

Pretty much my point for all year end rankings. Just because a team qualifies for state in what some would argue a lesser region, doesn't mean they will automatically finish in our year end rankings. If, however they finish well, they will be rewarded. See example below.

Judging by what I'm reading above, there may be a misunderstanding between some posters on context and not a meaning.

Example: Minnetonka from District 6 has played very well vs. outside teams and is very deserving of their T10 status. Our formula is built so they will not lose it, if for some reason they cannot advance out of Districts or Regions. Hermantown, however can greatly improve their stock if they fare well in the state tournament. If they make it to the final, they are guaranteed the #2 spot because they would have put together an incredible run through districts, regions and state, thus earning their way in (the way the other teams currently do in our rankings formula).

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:39 pm

I do agree with you. But each program with 2 or more B1's teams should have a playoff so they send only one team to regions or state. This is about kids playing not programs. So if the best B1 team loses in regions. They were 50 wins and 3 loses. they don't make state they should get 3rd because of ? record what ? They lost.
I guess I see things different then most. That could be good or bad.
My son is playing for a big program. They have 2 B1's. They are both good clubs. They both could make a run to regions or state. Or take a knee at districts. I like reading about the rankings and etc. But most have forgot it's still all about the kids. Not programs,coaches and even parents. Just the kids. Playing a stupid game on ice. That cost us $1000's each year.
So in my option The 2 team's that loses 2 at state. Should play for 7th and 8th.
Good Luck To All.

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:52 pm

Thanks HD for your reply (I love good healthy debate and a different POV). We (YHH) are developing a Pairwise/ESPN model for ranking that was developed for young adults, adults, etc. When it gets applied to kids there is something missed in translation.

However, the demand for good rankings, discussion, editorial is/was so strong that is/was the reason we started YHH.

We stand around rinks for hours and spend money like crazy -- but all of us (me included) forget about the fact that none of it is about us.

Respectfully,

TS

HOCKEYDRIVER · Post by **HOCKEYDRIVER** » Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:37 pm

Thanks YHH,

I think your rankings system is working good.
You guys are on the right path.
It's not the translation, it's the people reading them, they get worried when their kids team loses spots. Or not getting the love.

Frosty4 · Post by **Frosty4** » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:01 pm

PWGUY33 wrote:So lets see:

Elk River gets beat 5-2 on Saturday by Centennial and they move up to #1

Prior Lake get beat 5-2 on Saturday by OMG and moves down 2 spots to #3

These rankings make zero sense.

PL has beaten ER twice as well as Lakeville South in their only meeting. All 3 teams are excellent Pee Wee teams but would have to question the logic behind the ranking system.............