2 or 3 officials?

MAS Hockey · Post by **MAS Hockey** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:06 pm

Does anyone know if there has been any talk of making a 3-man system mandatory at the bantam level and possibly even peewee A level? Over the years I've watched a lot of these higher level games worked by the 2-man system and I feel bad for the refs and the teams playing. In my opinion the game is too fast and there is too much going on for two refs to keep an eye on everything. Other than cost, is there a reason that the 3-man system is not made mandatory?

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:18 pm

No challenges as long as there are 2 referees calling penalties not like the current Bantam system where only 1 person on the ice calls penalties. That is just ridiculous.....

Stripes2011 · Post by **Stripes2011** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:32 am

I'm Glad someone mentioned it. There are alot of coaches and parents that do not realize that the 3 man system is 2 "linsemen" and ONE referree. 2 guys to call off sides, icing, etc. and one to call penalties.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:50 am

USA Hockey, MN Hockey and any District that allows or promotes putting 1 referee on the ice is merely paying lip service to player safety. There can be no lucid argument in favor of a 1 referee system. "Consistency" has been tried, but fails miserably since the only thing consistent with 1 referee is missed calls. Given the recent injuries suffered in games, referees will be called upon to call infractions closer than ever. 1 referee is not able to do so.

Every District referee coordinator, (especially the moron from D9) should figure out that 1 referee went away in every other league in the world years ago. MN Hockey Referee-in-Chief should be leading the charge to wake USA Hockey up from it's money generating obsession and force it to a 2 referee system mandate. Add 1 or 2 linesmen if you want. But there should never be another hockey game played with 1 referee on the ice!

puckeyone · Post by **puckeyone** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:34 pm

badgerBob2---Come on man---- dont single out just the D9 ref , they all drink the cool aid., they even say now you have to have them for scrimmage games, Just protect to back pocket as I see it

HSRef77 · Post by **HSRef77** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 4:53 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:USA Hockey, MN Hockey and any District that allows or promotes putting 1 referee on the ice is merely paying lip service to player safety. There can be no lucid argument in favor of a 1 referee system. "Consistency" has been tried, but fails miserably since the only thing consistent with 1 referee is missed calls. Given the recent injuries suffered in games, referees will be called upon to call infractions closer than ever. 1 referee is not able to do so.

Every District referee coordinator, (especially the moron from D9) should figure out that 1 referee went away in every other league in the world years ago. MN Hockey Referee-in-Chief should be leading the charge to wake USA Hockey up from it's money generating obsession and force it to a 2 referee system mandate. Add 1 or 2 linesmen if you want. But there should never be another hockey game played with 1 referee on the ice!

This is a good post and I hope it gains traction. The district that I work in volunteered to test the 2 official, 1 linesman system (no additional cost) for all A Bantam and Jr. Gold. We were shot down, even though the coaches and the district were in favor. This needs to be driven by and through MN Hockey. It seems like such a logical decision that could be made quickly and benefit player safety.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:50 pm

To change the system it needs to be done at USA Hockey and right now USA Hockey does not recognize the 2 ref 1 linesman system.

The Enlightened One · Post by **The Enlightened One** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:09 pm

greybeard58 wrote:To change the system it needs to be done at USA Hockey and right now USA Hockey does not recognize the 2 ref 1 linesman system.

They also don,t recognize the July 1 birthday but we do it anyhow.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:50 am

graybeard: I am aware USA Hockey doesn't recognize the 2 referee system. Which if you read my post is where I said MN Hockey should force USA Hockey to wake up. I've had to watch 30 hours of recertification and level modules because USA Hockey is so progressive and every short video provides the nauseating statements of purity USA Hockey wants to promote. But, until they mandate a minimum of 2 referees for every game, they continue to prove their Blue Puck mentality.

MN Hockey has the ability to mandate this, but they too are stuck in the dark ages on many issues.

As for District Referee Directors. I have met several and will stand behind my statement that the District 9 guy is a moron that should be removed from that position.

buzzsaw · Post by **buzzsaw** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:27 am

I don't know this but wondering if a 1 ref 2 lines system in place in some areas or districts due to the lack of good experienced officials. This allows the one seasoned ref to call the game while the linesmen can simply call the lines. It also allows younger linesmen to see how a more experienced official calls the game. Not that I'm in favor of it all but this could be the reason.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:29 am

buzz: That is not the reason they give. I was told it's because International Ice Hockey Federation promotes the 1 ref system. (Which they no longer do.) So when asked, they have no logical reason. 2 refs 0 linesmen is the cheapest system, so it isn't money.

buzzsaw · Post by **buzzsaw** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:50 am

There is no valid reason for not having 2 referees. Consistency with one ref is just an excuse and not a reason. USA Hockey needs to recognize the 2/1 (how hard is that?)

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:11 am

The Enlightened One wrote:
greybeard58 wrote:To change the system it needs to be done at USA Hockey and right now USA Hockey does not recognize the 2 ref 1 linesman system.
They also don,t recognize the July 1 birthday but we do it anyhow.

This is not true.
Minnesota Hockey registers players per USAH guideline...
The difference is simply we are called Minnesota peewees (whatever) on the rost but aer registered as bantams with USAH.

MH does NOT get to do whatever they want. MH works within the system given them.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:15 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:graybeard: I am aware USA Hockey doesn't recognize the 2 referee system. Which if you read my post is where I said MN Hockey should force USA Hockey to wake up. I've had to watch 30 hours of recertification and level modules because USA Hockey is so progressive and every short video provides the nauseating statements of purity USA Hockey wants to promote. But, until they mandate a minimum of 2 referees for every game, they continue to prove their Blue Puck mentality.

MN Hockey has the ability to mandate this, but they too are stuck in the dark ages on many issues.

As for District Referee Directors. I have met several and will stand behind my statement that the District 9 guy is a moron that should be removed from that position.

MH does NOT have teh ability to mandate this.
BUT if they did, the fact still remains that the officials are the ones that are telling teh MH board that 1 ref 2 linesman is what they want.
The change needs to come from the ground up. I can guarantee you, no (or few) MH board members will care if the 3 man system with one ref becomes a 2 mand system or a 2 ref, 1 linesman system.
There is a body of board members that prefer 2 refs JUST for the cost to the local associations.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:18 am

D16 allows the local association to use 2 refs for bantam games but advises them that for district play-offs and beyond the 3 man system will be used. And if D16 refs want to be considered for those games (post district) they need to have some experience with it.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:20 am

elliot: Thank you for clarifying the splitting of hairs. The fact MNHockey registers MN Pee-Wees as Bantams only means MN Hockey has taken advantage of the loop-hole.

USA Hockey allows a 2 ref system and under the USA Hockey rules, that is fine. Where the gap in logic is that in order to have 3 officials on the ice, 2 of them must call the lines.

I would like to hear you say if you support having only 1 referee on the ice?

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:26 am

Elliot: Some refs might be saying they want 1 ref. But I have not talked to one that prefers it to 2 refs 1 linesman. (Though District ref coordinators have said they prefer 1 ref 2 linesmen and I think is towing the company line)

I also agree it must come from "ground up". Which mean it starts with associations, moves to Districts, then MN Hockey then USA Hockey.

In the current era (Post Jack Jablonski injury). I can't believe anyone in their right mind would say 1 referee is better than 2?

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:40 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:elliot: Thank you for clarifying the splitting of hairs. The fact MNHockey registers MN Pee-Wees as Bantams only means MN Hockey has taken advantage of the loop-hole.

USA Hockey allows a 2 ref system and under the USA Hockey rules, that is fine. Where the gap in logic is that in order to have 3 officials on the ice, 2 of them must call the lines.

I would like to hear you say if you support having only 1 referee on the ice?

I prefer 2 refs OR 2 refs & a linesman.

The 3 man system is what the refs association wanted.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:44 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:Elliot: Some refs might be saying they want 1 ref. But I have not talked to one that prefers it to 2 refs 1 linesman. (Though District ref coordinators have said they prefer 1 ref 2 linesmen and I think is towing the company line)

I also agree it must come from "ground up". Which mean it starts with associations, moves to Districts, then MN Hockey then USA Hockey.

In the current era (Post Jack Jablonski injury). I can't believe anyone in their right mind would say 1 referee is better than 2?

By ground up I mean the refs and their association.
I think most assn would prefer not using the current 3 man system.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:45 am

To be more clear, the refs want 3 bodies on the ice. USA mandates that be 1 ref 2 linesmen.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:04 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:To be more clear, the refs want 3 bodies on the ice. USA mandates that be 1 ref 2 linesmen.

The ref assn asked MH (and it is almost every year) for the 1 ref 2 linesman system. That is what USAH mandates BUT they did not request MH try and change USAH thinking on it. ONE REF - two linesman, that is what they asked for.
Now, they may prefer 2 refs & 1 lm BUT they have never said that.
They have said 1 ref, 2 lm.

buzzsaw · Post by **buzzsaw** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:38 pm

There is no valid reason for not having 2 referees. Consistency with one ref is just an excuse and not a reason. USA Hockey needs to recognize the 2/1 (how hard is that?)

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:50 pm

buzzsaw wrote:There is no valid reason for not having 2 referees. Consistency with one ref is just an excuse and not a reason. USA Hockey needs to recognize the 2/1 (how hard is that?)

Easy for us, but not so much for the big machine at the top with the control.

whockeyguy · Post by **whockeyguy** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:04 pm

Elliot ,one quick question for you and I will even answer it for you. Who runs Mn Hockey , the Board of the Director or the officials association?
Yeh we all know its the same guys that can move associations all over the country side without even talking to them,,yep The Mn Hockey board of Dictators,, So dont tell us that you can get 2 refs to do these games, There is NO reason any longer to use the joke of the one ref two linesmen system,
It wasall put into the place years ago by the show me the money refs. It was some older refs that still want to do Bantam games and couldnt handle the fact there skating ability fell down to squirt level.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:50 am

whockeyguy wrote:Elliot ,one quick question for you and I will even answer it for you. Who runs Mn Hockey , the Board of the Director or the officials association?
Yeh we all know its the same guys that can move associations all over the country side without even talking to them,,yep The Mn Hockey board of Dictators,, So dont tell us that you can get 2 refs to do these games, There is NO reason any longer to use the joke of the one ref two linesmen system,
It wasall put into the place years ago by the show me the money refs. It was some older refs that still want to do Bantam games and couldnt handle the fact there skating ability fell down to squirt level.

Well, I don't know who put it into place originally.
I can tell you the first time I remember seeing it, I thought, 'OMG, is this a joke?"

As far as who runs it, the Refs Assn brought it up and made their recommendation for pay at regions/state AND that 3 man at bantam A was needed.
It was debated and the thought was to go with the refs said they needed.
There are a lot (about 13 district directors plus or minus) that no longer will accept this, but that does not mean it is going to change.
It will be discussed this weekend.

Who runs MH?
That is a whole other thread.....