Last chance for the North?

[FightingSioux5]

Global warming would be devastating to northern hockey, with the exception of probably Roseau… Duluth and Hermantown’s amature programs would evaporate! lol

Global warming with definitely hurt the Roseau area....I mean the major job supplier for the is Polaris lol

[Shinbone_News]

Everyone knows that most of the rankers, like most of the players, live in the cities, and there just isn't THAT much out-of-conference play that goes on much less north vs. metro vs. south at the youth level.

That 35 game limit @ Squirts, for example, means about 90% district play, 9% tournament play where they MIGHT meet a distant opponent, and 1% out-of-district "scrimmages."

My point is that most of the rankers live in the cities, and there aren't many north vs. metro games during the season, so no way to accurately rank teams you have not seen. Therefore, the math leaves northern teams a bit of a mystery to most rankers, so unless or until you have an "outstate" (hate that term) team that's ripping it up all over the state, they stick with what they know, which is the Edinas, Eden Prairies, Wayzatas, Rosemounts and Sibleys of the world.

I'm not worried about small-town programs, they'll be fine. All in all, they probably benefit from being under the radar. (But once they do get to East or Grand Rapids varsity, they do have a political/scouting disadvantage, because the scouts are cities-based too.)

[Ranger101]

Global warming would be devastating to northern hockey, with the exception of probably Roseau… Duluth and Hermantown’s amature programs would evaporate! lol

Global warming with definitely hurt the Roseau area....I mean the major job supplier for the is Polaris lol

Global Warming (bs) hasn't affected Roseau and Polaris one bit..check out the DOW! Polaris is currently one of the most profitable companies in the DOW. Sorry I have family at Polaris so I am a little biased...

[sportsdad]

Global warming would be devastating to northern hockey, with the exception of probably Roseau… Duluth and Hermantown’s amature programs would evaporate! lol

Global warming with definitely hurt the Roseau area....I mean the major job supplier for the is Polaris lol

No worry boys, the planets temperatures haven't risen in the past 15 years and it looks like thanks to the upcoming decrease in heat from the sun, we will be provided with a mini ice age. http://www.offthegridnews.com/2012/01/3 ... last-word/
If Texas gets outdoor ice lookout. Hockey will be rockin across this country.... and so will Polaris.

[mnmouth]

Global warming would be devastating to northern hockey, with the exception of probably Roseau… Duluth and Hermantown’s amature programs would evaporate! lol

Global warming with definitely hurt the Roseau area....I mean the major job supplier for the is Polaris lol

No worry boys, the planets temperatures haven't risen in the past 15 years and it looks like thanks to the upcoming decrease in heat from the sun, we will be provided with a mini ice age. http://www.offthegridnews.com/2012/01/3 ... last-word/
If Texas gets outdoor ice lookout. Hockey will be rockin across this country.... and so will Polaris.

No, they've only definitely risen over the past 107 years, and more likely over the past 160 years. The increase is seemingly, ridiculously small, about .5 degrees Celsius, but enough to melt glacial ice and raise sea levels. You must work for Rush Limbaugh.

[sportsdad]

Global warming with definitely hurt the Roseau area....I mean the major job supplier for the is Polaris lol

No worry boys, the planets temperatures haven't risen in the past 15 years and it looks like thanks to the upcoming decrease in heat from the sun, we will be provided with a mini ice age. http://www.offthegridnews.com/2012/01/3 ... last-word/
If Texas gets outdoor ice lookout. Hockey will be rockin across this country.... and so will Polaris.

No, they've only definitely risen over the past 107 years, and more likely over the past 160 years. The increase is seemingly, ridiculously small, about .5 degrees Celsius, but enough to melt glacial ice and raise sea levels. You must work for Rush Limbaugh.

No, I think Rush and Al Gore are both idiots but I do look at both side instead of whats shoved down my throat. Examples being;

"Several leading climate scientists told the UK Mail that the sun is transitioning from the unusually high levels of energy seen throughout the 20th century toward a “grand minimum” in solar energy output. Such a minimum promises colder summers, extended bitter winter, and shortened crop seasons."

"Data collections at the University of Illinois confirm summer sea ice in the Arctic reached a 30-year minimum in 2007, but they also prove the largely unreported fact that summer sea ice spread in the Antarctic reached a 30-year maximum the same year. Researchers agree about the summer sea ice spread."

West Antarctica is losing ice but total global sea ice has remained stable.

"All this ice loss must mean the Arctic is heating up, right? On the contrary, DMI admits little difference in Arctic temperatures between 1958 and 2009, and data from NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) indicates a cooling trend in the Arctic since the 1940s. Indeed, some climate scientists — even those who support the idea of anthropogenic (human-caused) global warming (AGW) — are predicting Earth will experience a period of cooling for the next two or three decades."

The only Kool Aid drinker seems to be you mister mnmouth

[sportsdad]

Like I said, Polaris will be kickin it in the decades to come.

[north_bear]

It is hard for me to fathom that in the next 20-30 years the earth will cool off after the explosion of co2 that has been emitted into the atmosphere since the industrial revolution. Factories, power plants and cars are only increasing in numbers, although hopefully they become cleaner and more efficient.

We know the earth's temp has risen over the past 100 or so years and that co2 levels and temp increases have coincidentally matched with the advancement of man kind.

Whether or not this all reverts itself in a few decades is yet to be seen.

On a side note, I wonder how long until this thread is nothing but a memory, hmm.

[sportsdad]

It is hard for me to fathom that in the next 20-30 years the earth will cool off after the explosion of co2 that has been emitted into the atmosphere since the industrial revolution. Factories, power plants and cars are only increasing in numbers, although hopefully they become cleaner and more efficient.

We know the earth's temp has risen over the past 100 or so years and that co2 levels and temp increases have coincidentally matched with the advancement of man kind.

Whether or not this all reverts itself in a few decades is yet to be seen.

On a side note, I wonder how long until this thread is nothing but a memory, hmm.

Its hard for anyone to fathom it when you only get one side of the facts. Dig up the unreported facts and you soon find you don't know if anyone has a clue. My original post was only a lighthearted comment about the world being a better place if there were more hockey. And you would think a mini ice age would be very conducive to that. It was never meant to be a discussion about global warming !! Thank MNMOUTH for that.

[Slap Shot]

Look no further than Greenway for what a local economy can do to a non-metro program. Hopefully that trend doesn't expand (although as someone that has a cabin in GR can attest that community has been hit a degree as well) because even as a metro kid I grew up loving it when the outstate teams did well at state - possibly becuase Tonka did nothing in the 70's to write home about.

I sincerely hope the northern schools will continue to do well and perhaps will even expand. I think it's far too early to predict any particular area's demise, but that said it's not illogical to wonder about their long-term viability.

[grindiangrad-80]

Minnesota will always have some northern representation in hockey.
The names of the teams may change with schools merging, etc.
It's highly unlikely that the domination of the '40's-'70's will return.
I agree with E70 on the likely scenarios over the next several years.

[north_bear]

It is hard for me to fathom that in the next 20-30 years the earth will cool off after the explosion of co2 that has been emitted into the atmosphere since the industrial revolution. Factories, power plants and cars are only increasing in numbers, although hopefully they become cleaner and more efficient.

We know the earth's temp has risen over the past 100 or so years and that co2 levels and temp increases have coincidentally matched with the advancement of man kind.

Whether or not this all reverts itself in a few decades is yet to be seen.

On a side note, I wonder how long until this thread is nothing but a memory, hmm.

Its hard for anyone to fathom it when you only get one side of the facts. Dig up the unreported facts and you soon find you don't know if anyone has a clue. My original post was only a lighthearted comment about the world being a better place if there were more hockey. And you would think a mini ice age would be very conducive to that. It was never meant to be a discussion about global warming !! Thank MNMOUTH for that.

Amen. Go hockey!!

[The Enlightened One]

Global warming aside what is hurting the Duluth teams and helping the other local schools is the Duluth school board. The numbers in Duluth are dropping and most of the surrounding school districts have had to close the open enrollment window due to the students that are fleeing it and moving to a better ran, more stable school system. I think what has gone on in Duluth pretty well guarantees that Denfeld will never be a power house again and that once the infrastructure that Randolf has put into place to support his high school team starts to break down and go away that they will drop down to the level of Cloquet or Grand Rapids and become one of those teams that you say "on any given day they could beat you, maybe, but boy, back in the day". The big players Up North in a few years are going to be Cloquet and Hermantown both of whom are gaining youth association members fleeing from the Duluth school system. Marshall is going to continue to get tougher. Right now all of the surrounding school districts with the possible exception of Proctor are growing in numbers as are their corresponding youth programs by about the same rate that the Duluth school system is dropping. It is going to get worse too if the housing market gets just a little bit better so that people who are currently in Duluth but wanting to leave can. Duluth is adding onto the problems by trying to raise taxes to cover a couple of issues (how can you build a school and then suddenly realize that you don't have the money to pay the new light bill and etc) so it is not going to reverse itself.

All in all hockey up north is fine and will continue to be fine, the center of the universe is just going to shift a bit to the west, that is all.

[karl(east)]

Global warming aside what is hurting the Duluth teams and helping the other local schools is the Duluth school board. The numbers in Duluth are dropping and most of the surrounding school districts have had to close the open enrollment window due to the students that are fleeing it and moving to a better ran, more stable school system. I think what has gone on in Duluth pretty well guarantees that Denfeld will never be a power house again and that once the infrastructure that Randolf has put into place to support his high school team starts to break down and go away that they will drop down to the level of Cloquet or Grand Rapids and become one of those teams that you say "on any given day they could beat you, maybe, but boy, back in the day". The big players Up North in a few years are going to be Cloquet and Hermantown both of whom are gaining youth association members fleeing from the Duluth school system. Marshall is going to continue to get tougher. Right now all of the surrounding school districts with the possible exception of Proctor are growing in numbers as are their corresponding youth programs by about the same rate that the Duluth school system is dropping. It is going to get worse too if the housing market gets just a little bit better so that people who are currently in Duluth but wanting to leave can. Duluth is adding onto the problems by trying to raise taxes to cover a couple of issues (how can you build a school and then suddenly realize that you don't have the money to pay the new light bill and etc) so it is not going to reverse itself.

All in all hockey up north is fine and will continue to be fine, the center of the universe is just going to shift a bit to the west, that is all.

I agree with the gist of this post, though I think the situation in Duluth will stabilize in time. Sooner or later the Red Plan rancor will fade from memory, and many of the factors and people that made a number of the Duluth schools--particularly on the east side--good for academics and extracurriculars remain in place. I'm not sure if that will be enough to keep up the hockey player output, but in the long run the city's prospects, while decidedly mixed, are not awful.

Denfeld is certainly in a tough place. They finally have their own youth program, which could inspire some loyalty, but that may have come too late. How that plays out over the next few years, and how DAHA responds, will do a lot to decide the hockey balance in the area.

It's very difficult to speculate on East's future after the end of the Randolph era; succeeding him will be a daunting task by any set of standards. We'll have to wait and see how ambitious and how good a manager the next East coach is.

Looking at trends around the state, and the rises and falls of great hockey programs in Minnesota, East's success over the past twenty years makes very little sense. They became one of the state's premier powers following a significant decline in population, followed by stagnation. Maybe that bubble is finally going to burst. If it does, the real beneficiaries won't be Hermantown or Marshall--they'll be Elk River and Andover.

And then, yes, it will be a difficult time for northern hockey, at least at the AA level. East, Rapids, and Cloquet will probably still have their spurts, but would not dominate. If Marshall and/or Hermantown feel empowered enough, maybe one or both will make the leap and help the north rise again. (I can dream, can't I?)

The next few years of East hockey will be very interesting to watch. A lot of the things we've taken for granted over the past twenty years will probably be challenged, and we'll see how the program responds.

[tezer13]

You might want to wait a year, at least, on this projected demise of East and the North.

This year's group of Juniors were 59-12-1 as Bantam A's and were 55-7-1 vs. MN Bantam A teams. Won the VFW tourn. 8-1 over Woodbury in the title. BTW Woodbury was the Bantam A Champ.

And they lost to GR in the regionals. If Bischoff and sticks around and East keeps their lot, I would not be betting too much against either. East will lose about 5-6 regulars from their lineup this year. Granted the top 3 forwards and Rapenksy will hurt and I doubt they will avg 6 goals a game - I think they will be just fine.

The soph class was 30-29-2 (29-24-2 minus AAA games) as Bantam A's without Beaulieu. As others have mentioned that record is predominantly against the best teams in the state.

This year's Bantam A's are 18-22-4 (18-18-4) and while that is nothing to brag about here is what they have done against some of the best:
v. #2 Edina(LPH rank) have a win and a tie
v. #5 Burnsville tied
v. #13 Elk River are (1-1)
v. #3 WBL are (2-2)
v. #11 Moorhead won 2-1
v. #12 Lakeville N. won 6-1
v. #4 OMG lost 2-3
they are 0-4 v. #1 Wayzata and #6 Eden Prarie
-----Not a terrible resume.

[Doc Holliday]

Interesting read from a southwest suburban person.

Can some of you enlighten me on some things about the Duluth area & all the other things that have been talked about? Some of them may seem rather common knowledge to most, but not to me.

How's are the Duluth school's broken down, geographically wise?

Youth programs. Who plays where when growing up? All by location? Kids that play in what youth program go to what school generally? When I played, Duluth had the Stewarts and that's the Pee Wee team that Spehar/Locker/Mills/Kolquist played with; don't know if that's still around or a different name, etc.

Just kind of a general background/history of everything Duluth/north/Range hockey I guess, so that shouldn't take too long..

[StreetStix]

You might want to wait a year, at least, on this projected demise of East and the North.

I agree entirely. Barring the early departure of any kids to juniors, East and GR should both have solid teams next year. East should still have Parker, Moore, and Beaulieu - three guys that started the majority of their games this season. And there's still considerable depth after that. And GR still has a solid tender, Jake, and Avery. I think next year will still be good years for both teams.

[Ranger101]

GR needs Bischoff to stay next year. Hockey Day MN 2013 in Grand Rapids may be the key...what kid wouldn't want to play in that on his home turf?

[karl(east)]

Interesting read from a southwest suburban person.

Can some of you enlighten me on some things about the Duluth area & all the other things that have been talked about? Some of them may seem rather common knowledge to most, but not to me.

How's are the Duluth school's broken down, geographically wise?

Youth programs. Who plays where when growing up? All by location? Kids that play in what youth program go to what school generally? When I played, Duluth had the Stewarts and that's the Pee Wee team that Spehar/Locker/Mills/Kolquist played with; don't know if that's still around or a different name, etc.

Just kind of a general background/history of everything Duluth/north/Range hockey I guess, so that shouldn't take too long..

Well, here's a start...seeing as Mike Randolph has been coaching longer than I've been alive, I don't know all the details, and some people may want to correct me. But here's your Duluth history.

Around 1980, as the local economy was going to pieces, there were 4 public high schools in Duluth--from east to west, East, Central, Denfeld, and Morgan Park--plus the private Duluth Cathedral. At the time Duluth had over 100,000 residents; it dropped to 85,000 by the mid-90s and has stayed there since. The west side, which was and is more blue-collar, got hit a lot harder than the east side. Morgan Park High closed not long after the U.S. Steel mill shut down. As a result, a sizeable majority of the school-aged population is on the east side. When there were 3 public schools, East was noticeably larger than the other two, and is still larger now that there are 2, even though it draws from a smaller area. There has also traditionally been a lot of open enrollment into East from around the area.

Now, some hockey history: East had a mini-dynasty in the early 60s that included a state title, and Cathedral was a force in the late 60s, but the city made only one trip to the state tourney in the 70s (East, 1975). The high school teams were in Section 2 in those days, competing with a lot of north metro teams (and not the Iron Range, which was still Section 7). Denfeld was the team that put the city back on the map with 3 tournament berths in the 80s, thanks in large part to Robb Stauber and an assistant coach named Mike Randolph. In those years East was always decent but never great.

The youth teams, though all under the umbrella of DAHA, were not linked to high schools, but instead to the local rinks. Even today, mite and squirt hockey teams in Duluth are these smaller rink teams scattered across the city--Portman, Congdon, Woodland, Glen Avon, Irving, Piedmont, etc. That's why you never see Duluth teams mentioned as great squirt teams; the talent is far too spread out. But many locals, Randolph included, are big advocates of this model.

When Randolph took over the East program in 88, he moved to set up a real feeder system to the high school program. The Duluth East hockey program at the PeeWee and Bantam levels was born, and East's success during his tenure pretty much speaks for himself. (1 state tourney berth between 1966 and 1990; 13 since.) The rest of the city, however, languished. They were fed by a single youth program called the Lakers. Central had one Class A tourney berth in the mid-90s but soon fell off the map, and the school is now closed. Denfeld dropped from AA to A in the late 90s and has never come close to repeating their success in the 80s.

Marshall, on the other hand, really took off in the late 90s and early 00s. They had been awful before, but with an overflow of talent at East, they began to scoop up some good players. Marshall's rise is probably one of several reasons why East was not as good in the 00s as they were in the 90s. They did draw kids from both East and the Lakers--some of the top players on this year's team are ex-Lakers--but East generally had the numbers to survive the loss in talent and still contend, while Denfeld and Central really didn't.

In the past few years, Duluth launched a large, controversial school restructuring known as the Red Plan. [insert communism joke here] The plan built a new East building (opened this year on the old Ordean Middle School site), and a huge renovation of Denfeld that sent all of the Denfeld students to Central last year, before Central closed for good this year. I will leave out the gory details, but many people (whether justified or not) were angry with the plan, and as a result school board levies have been failing in Duluth lately, leading to budget woes.

This has led to increased open enrollment in neighboring districts and also something of a boost for Marshall; whether this turns out to be a long-term trend or just a brief blip is anyone's guess. With the closure of Central, the Laker program was re-named Denfeld; however, they failed to field a Bantam A team this year, which is obviously not a good sign.

So Duluth hockey is in a very unsettled place right now. Will top hockey players flee the Denfeld program if it can't field A teams, and if so, where to? Is the current East PeeWee team, ranked about 40th in the myhockeyrankings.com poll, cause for concern about the future of East? Will Marshall end up as the big winner, gathering in people leaving the two public schools? Some want a combined youth program; will East be okay with that? I have more questions than answers at this point.

There are certainly better authorities than me on the rest of the area. The decline of the Iron Range since the mines started closing in the 70s and 80s is pretty well-documented. Hermantown, as Duluth's sort-of suburb, has taken off over the past 15 years. It is the only city in the area that's growing, and that is reflected in the growing success of its hockey program. Cloquet had a nice rise to prominence in the early 00s thanks to the efforts of Dave Esse, but the town isn't growing and they do not really have the numbers to be a consistent force. I see them as comparable to a town like Grand Rapids; they will have their spurts of contention thanks to talented groups of players, but they will also have their valleys.

East has been unique over the past 20 years, largely avoiding such valleys. Those days may end in the not-so-distant future, though it's hard to say for sure.

[Doc Holliday]

Thanks. Very informative. Helps with understanding a bit more.

[duluth dave]

Very good Karl- I played in duluth for the longview rink in the late sixties. Now back to the subject. East will return strong team, Rapids will be good and with the group of sophmores CEC has they will improve. Hermantown looks strong every year. Demise of the north? Hardly.

[shooter803]

Great summary of Duluth area hockey - it has some unique situations - I think that East impact blip is the 5-6 current bantam A players going to Marshall next year.

[The Enlightened One]

One thing that has to be mentioned however is a current plan being pushed to consolidate those local neighborhood rinks into more of a formal East and Denfeld or East and West sub-association if you will by DAHA. Right now there is a plan in place (put on hold by the locals) to pave over one of the rinks and turn it into a parking lot for one of the schools. The park and rec group in Duluth are also talking about closing several of the neighborhood rinks and centers that go with them in an effort to save money. The people who go to those rinks right now will be channeled to (among other places) the Heritage center to be used as their home rinks. Duluth is a very long city, something like 28 miles from end to end and the fear (and probable reality) is that many of the west end kids who are now playing hockey will drop out due to the distances involved as well as that loss of the local feeling and loyalty to the neighborhood rinks. To be fair it has to be pointed out that the number of kids playing hockey in Duluth is dropping steadily so those neighborhood rinks have declining numbers which is leading to consolidations between them right now. Duluth is in a tough spot from several different angles and if the current trends of fighting tooth and nail to prevent new industry from coming into town, to stop the expansion of mining and etc continue they will continue to have problems. Right now the city of Superior in Wisconsin is benefiting as well. All in all hockey in Duluth is declining and will continue to decline. The numbers are going down, their buildings are wearing out (been to Fryberger lately?), their local flavor is being lost and then to boot along with the falling enrollment in hockey comes a falling cash flow to go with it. Look for a few more good years from Duluth East before they fade into the mists of time. Denfeld has hit the wall now. East will be that team that used to be along side Denfeld. The hockey powers up north are going to be Hermantown, Grand Rapids and (I think) Cloquet based on the trend of people leaving Duluth for a variety of reasons (red plan, taxes going up, infrastructure falling apart, etc) which is going to bring families and kids into that CEC system.

[blacklung]

Hermantown/East League games this year:
Bantam A
12-04-2011: 4-3 East
02-07-2012: 3-2 Herm OT

PeeWee A
10-18-2011: 6-2 Herm
02-07-2012 : 6-3 Herm

[Community Based]

They need to skip the connection between DAHA and the high schools as there really isn't one. They have a single youth association. Play youth hockey with the DAHA through bantam and then select where you want to go to high school. The youth teams shouldn't be called DE or Denfeld. That's stupid. Call them the Wolves or whatever. Youth associations role is to recruit and develop as many hockey players as possible without looking to where a player might attend high school. Having a single branded youth association will benefit all of Duluth hockey as well as all three high schools. More kids playing on more teams at the proper level. Focus on what is your responsiblity people not on things that aren't. What high school a player attends isn't your responsibility. Developing as many players as possible is.

Let's go DAHA Wolves.