Private schools to get one section in AA

[NearWestSide]

For play-offs, I think it is time to have just one section of the eight AA sections be just for private schools. The playing field is changing rapidly, you will see more private schools pulling in kids and more public schools trying to Co-Op....Hockey is changing, becoming a very elite sport...I know that kids are going to the private schools for mainly the education but it is weird how a handful of schools really attract the kids.

There are about 11 private schools in the state and I think 4 of these are the best teams in the state....probably more headed that way.

[MNHockeyFan]

Can we wait until one private school wins the Class 2A State Tournament before we talk about changing the system?

[No slap]

Curious what this would look like. Some/Most of the private schools are class A as their populations are so small. Are you suggesting all are moved up to AA? You would have 11 teams (by your estimate) competing for one section spot.

[Sparlimb]

For play-offs, I think it is time to have just one section of the eight AA sections be just for private schools. The playing field is changing rapidly, you will see more private schools pulling in kids and more public schools trying to Co-Op....Hockey is changing, becoming a very elite sport...I know that kids are going to the private schools for mainly the education but it is weird how a handful of schools really attract the kids.

There are about 11 private schools in the state and I think 4 of these are the best teams in the state....probably more headed that way.

Look at the section pickem. With two private schools at #1 in their section, plenty of folks here picked both to be upset in sections. I don't believe this to be an issue yet. Girl's hockey is losing teams, I'm not sure that discriminating and excluding any of the young ladies playing hockey is a good idea at this point. But as always, you are welcome to your opinion.

[NearWestSide]

Curious what this would look like. Some/Most of the private schools are class A as their populations are so small. Are you suggesting all are moved up to AA? You would have 11 teams (by your estimate) competing for one section spot.

That's what is hard to explain, the smaller school population, the better the hockey team...Breck is really small but they just beat one of the best teams in the state (Minnetonka).

[NearWestSide]

For play-offs, I think it is time to have just one section of the eight AA sections be just for private schools. The playing field is changing rapidly, you will see more private schools pulling in kids and more public schools trying to Co-Op....Hockey is changing, becoming a very elite sport...I know that kids are going to the private schools for mainly the education but it is weird how a handful of schools really attract the kids.

There are about 11 private schools in the state and I think 4 of these are the best teams in the state....probably more headed that way.

Look at the section pickem. With two private schools at #1 in their section, plenty of folks here picked both to be upset in sections. I don't believe this to be an issue yet. Girl's hockey is losing teams, I'm not sure that discriminating and excluding any of the young ladies playing hockey is a good idea at this point. But as always, you are welcome to your opinion.

Not saying they should be in their own state tournament like the boys had to be long ago so I don't think I'm excluding anyone....

[Sparlimb]

Curious what this would look like. Some/Most of the private schools are class A as their populations are so small. Are you suggesting all are moved up to AA? You would have 11 teams (by your estimate) competing for one section spot.

That's what is hard to explain, the smaller school population, the better the hockey team...Breck is really small but they just beat one of the best teams in the state (Minnetonka).

Breck is the 3rd largest private school according to this site. Larger than both BSM and HM...

http://high-schools.com/report/mn/priva ... esota.html

Well that site looks hugely wrong compared to what the MSHSL.org has...

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/enrollments.asp?sort=2

They have Breck at 398...

Guess I trust that more...

[NearWestSide]

Curious what this would look like. Some/Most of the private schools are class A as their populations are so small. Are you suggesting all are moved up to AA? You would have 11 teams (by your estimate) competing for one section spot.

That's what is hard to explain, the smaller school population, the better the hockey team...Breck is really small but they just beat one of the best teams in the state (Minnetonka).

Breck is the 3rd largest private school according to this site. Larger than both BSM and HM...

http://high-schools.com/report/mn/priva ... esota.html

Well that site looks hugely wrong compared to what the MSHSL.org has...

http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/enrollments.asp?sort=2

They have Breck at 398...

Guess I trust that more...

I would just look at the kids in grades 9-12 which is the 398 number...not total enrollement....Compare that to Minnetonka High School which has maybe upwards to 2000 kids in 9-12 (I'm guessing)

[observer]

Not sure I'm a fan of your idea but the girls are different than the boys. It seems like there are only enough girl players for a complete solid team at the largest of the publics that are supported by solid, growing, youth associations. Families from smaller associations, leading to smaller public schools, do seem to want to move daughters to privates as they're concerned the public high school team will only have a line and one half and a single D or 2. It can be tough because if the 1 or 2 strongest players leave there might not be much left. Boys teams are able to plug those departure holes easier.

[ghshockeyfan]

I think EP has nearly - or over - 3k.

I'd let Shattuck in to play in the state tourney too if that's the direction we are going.

[Hard water fan]

Can we wait until one private school wins the Class 2A State Tournament before we talk about changing the system?

Seems like deja vu MNHockeyfan guy. http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... &start=250

I certainly understand why you toe the MN Hockey line, considering your position and everything. Truth is, the numbers don't lie. If you smell smoke, why wait until the flames are licking the ceiling to believe there is a fire? Who are the top three girls teams right now overall? Why shouldn't there be a girl's prep league started? The East Coast has done it with amazing success. It's all about options. The landscape is changing and the prudent thing would be to create some diverse programs that encourage growth at both the private and public sectors. A quick fix would be to get rid of JV and force the girls to play 14's for an additional year or two...

[ghshockeyfan]

Can we wait until one private school wins the Class 2A State Tournament before we talk about changing the system?

Seems like deja vu MNHockeyfan guy. http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... &start=250

...and would eliminate the "fairness" stigma that is trumpeted everytime a public school loses to a prep school at the state tournament.

I don't believe a private school has ever made it to the final of an AA state tournament, so that's a hard argument to make. The AA tournament has pretty much been dominated by public schools since Day 1. In single A private schools have fared better but Warroad has won that title the past two years. So overall there's no reason to change any rules and there's no reason for any stigma.

Fared better? Your statement is misleading. In the last decade, at the A level, private schools have won 7 of the 10. Girls HS hockey has only been around for 15 years. Private schools are inherently smaller because of limited class sizes and a desire for a more personal education. Thus the majority participating will only be at the A level. Warroad did win the last two and as we all know, no recruiting goes on there, right? Regardless, because of the two class system, we'll never know how the likes of a Breck will fair against Edina, will we? Even at the youth level, if you use someone like the Queens Bantam AA team from Thunder Bay as an outsiders example, it becomes apparent. They won provincials last year, and walked through every tournament in the states they played in. They were asked not to participate in some of our tournaments again this year. They have a longer schedule, they play against a wider variety of teams and their development model is different than what is allowed here in MN. Shattuck is the same. How many A varsity teams could compete with their U16 team? 4 or 5?

On the boys side it is equally as impressive. In the last decade, of the 20 championships, over 1/3 have been from private schools. Even more interesting is that private schools comprise less than 10% of the total programs. That's an unbelievably high winning percentage. Factor in a comparison of total attendance and it isn't even worth discussing. Private schools have an obvious leg-up on the public school "competition" despite having much smaller attendance. The question is will the community based programs and the MSHL start to realize that their system can be improved, or will they continue to bury their head in the sand? There's room for both models, and lots can be gained from having a better understanding of why these programs are so succesful. To quote the great Harry Wilson: He who rejects change is the architect of decay. The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery.

To answer this question - a select few depending on the season...

"Shattuck is the same. How many A varsity teams could compete with their U16 team? 4 or 5?"

I had a team at Simley (Class A) that beat them one year and lost to them the next. We scheduled these as Varsity games.

I'd put SSM U19 in the AA and their U16 in the A. My guess is they wouldn't want to bother based on the non-MSHSL schedule they have currently.

Maybe we could get them invovled in sections and state tourney though...

[Sparlimb]

Can we wait until one private school wins the Class 2A State Tournament before we talk about changing the system?

Seems like deja vu MNHockeyfan guy. http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... &start=250

I don't believe a private school has ever made it to the final of an AA state tournament, so that's a hard argument to make. The AA tournament has pretty much been dominated by public schools since Day 1. In single A private schools have fared better but Warroad has won that title the past two years. So overall there's no reason to change any rules and there's no reason for any stigma.

Fared better? Your statement is misleading. In the last decade, at the A level, private schools have won 7 of the 10. Girls HS hockey has only been around for 15 years. Private schools are inherently smaller because of limited class sizes and a desire for a more personal education. Thus the majority participating will only be at the A level. Warroad did win the last two and as we all know, no recruiting goes on there, right? Regardless, because of the two class system, we'll never know how the likes of a Breck will fair against Edina, will we? Even at the youth level, if you use someone like the Queens Bantam AA team from Thunder Bay as an outsiders example, it becomes apparent. They won provincials last year, and walked through every tournament in the states they played in. They were asked not to participate in some of our tournaments again this year. They have a longer schedule, they play against a wider variety of teams and their development model is different than what is allowed here in MN. Shattuck is the same. How many A varsity teams could compete with their U16 team? 4 or 5?

On the boys side it is equally as impressive. In the last decade, of the 20 championships, over 1/3 have been from private schools. Even more interesting is that private schools comprise less than 10% of the total programs. That's an unbelievably high winning percentage. Factor in a comparison of total attendance and it isn't even worth discussing. Private schools have an obvious leg-up on the public school "competition" despite having much smaller attendance. The question is will the community based programs and the MSHL start to realize that their system can be improved, or will they continue to bury their head in the sand? There's room for both models, and lots can be gained from having a better understanding of why these programs are so succesful. To quote the great Harry Wilson: He who rejects change is the architect of decay. The only human institution which rejects progress is the cemetery.

To answer this question - a select few depending on the season...

"Shattuck is the same. How many A varsity teams could compete with their U16 team? 4 or 5?"

I had a team at Simley (Class A) that beat them one year and lost to them the next. We scheduled these as Varsity games.

I'd put SSM U19 in the AA and their U16 in the A. My guess is they wouldn't want to bother based on the non-MSHSL schedule they have currently.

Maybe we could get them invovled in sections and state tourney though...

They wouldn't due to the limited schedule the MSHSL forces down teams throats. I know HM was considering adding a team like SSM at one point, but it didn't come to fruition. I'm all for giving girls as much opportunity to play as possible. My daughter picked up hockey in 8th grade and by her senior year she got to skate in a state tournament. That kind of dream is one I wish all girls had a chance to share. We know that cannot be the case, but I'm happy it still can happen.

[MNHockeyFan]

I certainly understand why you toe the MN Hockey line, considering your position and everything. Truth is, the numbers don't lie. If you smell smoke, why wait until the flames are licking the ceiling to believe there is a fire? Who are the top three girls teams right now overall? Why shouldn't there be a girl's prep league started? The East Coast has done it with amazing success. It's all about options. The landscape is changing and the prudent thing would be to create some diverse programs that encourage growth at both the private and public sectors. A quick fix would be to get rid of JV and force the girls to play 14's for an additional year or two...

The truth still remains that no private school has ever won the Class 2A State Championship. So let's not make any rash proposals to change the system until a private school (or two) starts to dominate and win it year after year. Even then, it may be wise to leave things as they are, especially if we're talking about just one sport.

As for starting a separate prep league, I don't think you want to go there. If that were to happen private schools - like Hill-Murray, BSM, Breck and Blake - would likely opt to no longer be subject to MSHSL rules. They could play as many games as they wanted to play, and actively recruit and entice the very best players with scholarships. Their coaches could coach them year around, and enter them in national tournaments. Eventually - just like what is already the case out East - private schools would come to dominate and the level of play at public schools would become comparatively weak. And you would see the majority of college players coming from the top private (prep) schools which would just reinforce the top players wanting to go attend these schools. They would offer the best competition, the most ice time and better coaching. I think most would agree that the current system, where our private schools must abide by the same MSHSL rules as do public schools, is the better way to go.

When it comes to hockey, Shattuck-St. Mary's is in a totally different class than all other private schools in Minnesota. If allowed to play in the 2A tournament they would win it easily most years. They pretty much dominate even the fall Elite League, playing against high school all stars, so there's little doubt. SSM recruits from all over the country and even beyond, they play more than twice as many games as MSHSL schools and as a team they participate in U19 AAA tournaments all over the U.S. and Canada. This puts them in a different league altogether - which is right where they want to be. It would be a shame (IMO) to push our other private schools in this direction - if we did we would truly have a 2 class system just like they do out East.

[Nordic]

Maybe, what some do not like, is the private schools dominate at the conference level, then some at the section level to get to state. Then don't win it all because they match up with other good teams, and good goalies. some people don't like that their teams lose year after year to these teams in the conference, and people see that in the season stats. With the small numbers of some cities, and needing to produce more than 1 or 2 real good players on a team at a time, they might not ever beat them. It is a fact that parents will send their kids to private school for the disipline, or education, and for sure sports. They get all that for their money. I don't see a fix, let them play as they are now. Some team coaches need to work with the youth programs to help produce more decent players, still no for sure that they will stay.

[ghshockeyfan]

I can remember the time a class a team I coached beat the ssm 16s. The team won a close game and the ssm girls couldn't figure out why the hs team was so excited to win that game. Our hs team thought they were a big underdog. The ssm team thought they were the one playing a superior opponent. The point is that the ssm 16s could play in the mshsl if they wanted to. But why? They've got a better deal in a lot of ways as it is.

Switching gears... No hs coach has much incentive these days to work closely and invest time in the youth programs. They will likely never see their hard work pay off. I did it knowing this fact, others do too out of love of the game or wanting to do the right thing... Problem is that so few coaches are around more than a few years or so I'd bet. So, yes, hs coaches, focus on building the youth. But know you won't be doing it but for the better good of the future of the game.