Agreed! The ref should have either called a penalty or talked to the coach. Never brow beat the player.GreekChurch wrote:What the ref should have done, instead of skating all the way back to the goalie, is simply skated over to the team bench, and told the coach, he 's not going to tolerate the behavior. If it happens again, a delay of game penalty will be called. I really have a problem with the ref's barking at the kids - it's not their job, it's the coaches, and when they get off the ice, it's the parents. IMHO
Verteran official swears at PeeWee player in game?
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
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Defensive Zone
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Frankly it amazes me what associations get excused for relative to the behavior of coaches, refs, players and directors routinely. Somehow or other the normal rules of adult behavior in youth environments don't apply to hockey. Frankly, much of the stuff I've witnessed and had relayed to me by kids is a "firestorm" in any other youth-centric environment. This ref incident is inappropriate certainly but mild in comparison to what happens in PW locker rooms without supervision. 11-13 year old kids left to their own devices....
There's a whole lot of stuff that gets "excused" for all the wrong reasons.
There's a whole lot of stuff that gets "excused" for all the wrong reasons.
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old goalie85
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Maybe the official had a bad day and made a mistake....maybe the berating/swearing was taken out of context....maybe there is a little bit of both.
In any case, officials should be held to a higher standard. Is a suspension or termination the right action, it depends on past history and what "really" happend on the ice and in that game. I will say that every official wishes they could take something back, it's no different than any one of us at our daily job.
Personally, I would have liked to see the official make an apology to the player, parents and team. The situation could have been handled better.
Remember, officials are human too. Almost every official I know has played the game and officiates because they love the game. Yes, the money is a bonus but it's definitely not worth the time spent away from your family and/or the criticism you take.
In any case, officials should be held to a higher standard. Is a suspension or termination the right action, it depends on past history and what "really" happend on the ice and in that game. I will say that every official wishes they could take something back, it's no different than any one of us at our daily job.
Personally, I would have liked to see the official make an apology to the player, parents and team. The situation could have been handled better.
Remember, officials are human too. Almost every official I know has played the game and officiates because they love the game. Yes, the money is a bonus but it's definitely not worth the time spent away from your family and/or the criticism you take.
GreekChurch wrote:What the ref should have done, instead of skating all the way back to the goalie, is simply skated over to the team bench, and told the coach, he 's not going to tolerate the behavior. If it happens again, a delay of game penalty will be called. I really have a problem with the ref's barking at the kids - it's not their job, it's the coaches, and when they get off the ice, it's the parents. IMHO
Bingo.
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Observer...I have to disagree with you about "the ref is in charge and can do whatever he wants". That is so wrong! This intimidating behavior by the ref, or a coach, player and/or parent is what youth sports (hockey) are trying to stay away from. The ref did over step his authority. Yes, you can call it a bad day. You can call it whatever you want. The bottom line is who is the adult here? Take some responsibility. Fix it and move on.observer wrote:Waaaah
Tell me about the players apology to the ref for his bull shi.. behavior.
Sounds like the ref was having a bad day. Nothing more.
But, remind your players that the ref is in charge and can do whatever he wants. The language was unfortunate but every kid has heard a lot worse.
Maybe I didn't state it correctly but will stand by my comment, the ref is in charge. Do you think the players are? The coaches? The parents?
During the game, on the ice, the ref is in charge. He can also call what he wants as he sees it.
I have coached and have kid hockey players and kids love to fuss about this should have been called, or not called, for any number of reasons. I've always told them, the ref is in charge so you might want to consider adjusting your behavior. Period. I can also guarantee most players I've been involved with would have said to the ref, "I'm sorry sir, it will never happen again" no matter what the ref said. I never said it was ok for the ref to swear at a player. But, lots of babies out there. Player babies, coach babies and parent babies. And, babies love to make something out of nothing.
I did kind of like the suggestion to just slap the player with a delay of game penalty. The player, coach and parents really would have fussed then. It doesn't make any difference regarding the swearing but you also don't know if this player, team or association has any kind of history with annoying behavior. They are showing their annoying behavior now though. Is this a way to improve this association’s reputation? Or, could the fussing damage the association’s reputation?
During the game, on the ice, the ref is in charge. He can also call what he wants as he sees it.
I have coached and have kid hockey players and kids love to fuss about this should have been called, or not called, for any number of reasons. I've always told them, the ref is in charge so you might want to consider adjusting your behavior. Period. I can also guarantee most players I've been involved with would have said to the ref, "I'm sorry sir, it will never happen again" no matter what the ref said. I never said it was ok for the ref to swear at a player. But, lots of babies out there. Player babies, coach babies and parent babies. And, babies love to make something out of nothing.
I did kind of like the suggestion to just slap the player with a delay of game penalty. The player, coach and parents really would have fussed then. It doesn't make any difference regarding the swearing but you also don't know if this player, team or association has any kind of history with annoying behavior. They are showing their annoying behavior now though. Is this a way to improve this association’s reputation? Or, could the fussing damage the association’s reputation?
observer wrote:Maybe I didn't state it correctly but will stand by my comment, the ref is in charge. Do you think the players are? The coaches? The parents?
During the game, on the ice, the ref is in charge. He can also call what he wants as he sees it.
I have coached and have kid hockey players and kids love to fuss about this should have been called, or not called, for any number of reasons. I've always told them, the ref is in charge so you might want to consider adjusting your behavior. Period. I can also guarantee most players I've been involved with would have said to the ref, "I'm sorry sir, it will never happen again" no matter what the ref said. I never said it was ok for the ref to swear at a player. But, lots of babies out there. Player babies, coach babies and parent babies. And, babies love to make something out of nothing.
I did kind of like the suggestion to just slap the player with a delay of game penalty. The player, coach and parents really would have fussed then. It doesn't make any difference regarding the swearing but you also don't know if this player, team or association has any kind of history with annoying behavior. They are showing their annoying behavior now though. Is this a way to improve this association’s reputation? Or, could the fussing damage the association’s reputation?
Reading through the lines, it would seem the official in this case has an extensive negative reputation.
I love reading about parents getting upset at the ref for swearing at a kid and saying he should be banned for life. I guess if the kid swore at the ref for a stupid penalty he called or for a disallowed goal then it would be ok be it is a kid. Abuse of players, coaches and ref's should not be tolerated at all. However we know this happens all the time. So lets turn the tables the coach swears at the ref for giving the goalie a delay of game penalty should this coach be banned for life? Lets get real coaches swear or question the ref's every game. I do not think the ref should have done this but it happens it was probably a bad day for the ref and was frustrated over something. Move on lesson learned from both sides.
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netminder.net
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TheJet wrote;
TheJet wrote;
This seems a little hypocritical, it is OK for the player to shoot the puck out of the net because it is done “all of the time”, but the argument that players hear worse language all of the time doesn’t hold water? (Although I agree that the language is inappropriate).
BenDangle wrote;
As someone stated earlier, the game is much harder to officiate than most people think, and the associations are having trouble getting younger. Teenagers have other interests and games are harder to come by than they were 2-3 years ago. Our association clearly stated to the younger officials that they would not get as many games as in the past because some of the older officials were signing up for more games due to increased availability (unemployment), I applauded them for that. At the same time it is not attractive to register ($) as an official and take the day long class to work 5-7 games per season.
TheJet wrote;
So, the ref admitted to swearing, but not the rest of it. How do we/you know there actually was a “rest” of it? If I understand correctly, the interaction was between and adult ref and an 11 year old peewee. Is there a possibility that the 11 year old peewee needs to “admit” that some of the interaction was embellished? I chose to think the best of kids, but do not believe everything they say as gospel, including my own. I could be wrong in my assumption, but it seems like you are saying the ref didn’t admit to something that a youth player (the only actual witness) said the ref did, maybe that was all that was said.The nuts and bolts:
-goalie gets scored on and shoots the puck out of the net in frustration (we’ve all seen it b4)
-play goes to center ice, all is set, at which time ref stops, doesn’t drop the puck, but rather skates to goalie, stands over him for 15 seconds and says “don’t pull that bull s___ on me you idiot, next time hand me the puck nicely…”
-play goes on
-coaches and parents find out what was said after the game
-as concerned parents we write/cc Minnesota Hockey and certain district 8 parties to advise them of the situation, and our coach also fills out an on-line notice via the web site – we want this official removed for good, we asked for a response regarding the course of action for this situation
-district supervisor of officials emails us he has a policy not to get into discussions with parents
-Minnesota Hockey emails us – this matter is best dealt with through local supervisor of officials
-we are copied on an email from district director advising the supervisor of officials would be handling for district 8
-we are then copied (last rec’d) on an email from the supervisor of officials that indicates he spoke with the respective official and coach, the official admits to saying “bull ___” but not the rest of the comment, supervisor admits “right or wrong, his wording was not correct”, and “I have read and reviewed much worst situations with our district…
TheJet wrote;
I have a feeling that had a penalty been called, there would still be an issue, just a hunch.Observer - your nuts. I have seen goalies shoot the puck out of the net all of the time, so has he, and have never seen a penalty called. However, no problem here, had the guy called a penalty this would not be a topic. To say the kid has heard worse? Yeah, adults in authority positions call him worse than "idiot" all the time - get real.
This seems a little hypocritical, it is OK for the player to shoot the puck out of the net because it is done “all of the time”, but the argument that players hear worse language all of the time doesn’t hold water? (Although I agree that the language is inappropriate).
BenDangle wrote;
This one just annoys me, and I am not even a ref. Many of the youth officials are high school players, or formally high school players. I am sure most of them can skate just fine, and are able to keep up with the best players in whichever level they officiate. We have all seen the guys out there who seem to be a step slow or behind the play, but it is a far cry from “most”.warning: most refs are guys that can't play or couldn't ever play, so they trot out there and start becoming an authority on a topic they never had authority on....beware, it's a bad combination. not until the kids get older do the refs get better.
As someone stated earlier, the game is much harder to officiate than most people think, and the associations are having trouble getting younger. Teenagers have other interests and games are harder to come by than they were 2-3 years ago. Our association clearly stated to the younger officials that they would not get as many games as in the past because some of the older officials were signing up for more games due to increased availability (unemployment), I applauded them for that. At the same time it is not attractive to register ($) as an official and take the day long class to work 5-7 games per season.
TheJet wrote;
Have you looked at the title of your own thread, I am not sure what a “Verteran” official is, but it sounds bad.I would say at minimum he needs to get a better spell checker. Thx
Re: Verteran official swears at PeeWee player in game?
Get over it.TheJet wrote:Is it acceptable for a referee to swear at and intimidate an 11 year old 80 lb pee wee?
What does the forum have to say, I know there are some party’s out there that sit on various district boards at minimum?
The nuts and bolts:
-goalie gets scored on and shoots the puck out of the net in frustration (we’ve all seen it b4)
-play goes to center ice, all is set, at which time ref stops, doesn’t drop the puck, but rather skates to goalie, stands over him for 15 seconds and says “don’t pull that bull s___ on me you idiot, next time hand me the puck nicely…”
-play goes on
-coaches and parents find out what was said after the game
-as concerned parents we write/cc Minnesota Hockey and certain district 8 parties to advise them of the situation, and our coach also fills out an on-line notice via the web site – we want this official removed for good, we asked for a response regarding the course of action for this situation
-district supervisor of officials emails us he has a policy not to get into discussions with parents
-Minnesota Hockey emails us – this matter is best dealt with through local supervisor of officials
-we are copied on an email from district director advising the supervisor of officials would be handling for district 8
-we are then copied (last rec’d) on an email from the supervisor of officials that indicates he spoke with the respective official and coach, the official admits to saying “bull ___” but not the rest of the comment, supervisor admits “right or wrong, his wording was not correct”, and “I have read and reviewed much worst situations with our district…”
Well it’s been a week plus now and it is my understanding the official was verbally reprimanded but has not been suspended or terminated. Also note, in the summary of the comments above, there is no apology from ANY of those written/cc’d, while the referee has admitted to at least swearing. Are we out of line to think it doesn’t end with a slap on the wrist and shove it under the carpet? Isn’t this serious enough not to allow one person, the supervisor of officials, to make a solo decision? How many of the 19 officials codes of conduct items need to be broken to get removed as an official (apparently the 8 we count is not enough)?
YouthHockeyHub, you seem to be a “player”, you want the exclusive on this? Send PM.
At minimum share this with your district 8 peewee coach. Keep a close eye on him. Don’t allow him to talk to your players. Don’t allow him to intimidate you any longer. It is our understanding this particular official has been at it for a while.
Bigger fish to fry.
The people in charge of the officials will keep it on file and keep an eye open for hearing about anything in the future.
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Observer, wrong again! Matter of fact, we are both wrong. The person in charge during a youth hockey game is the Zamboni driver. Yes the driver. Just think when the game is tied with 30 sec. left on the game clock. The players are exhausted. The coaches are stress out. The ref’s are tired from skating up and down the ice. And the parents have laryngitis from cheering. So what does the Zamboni driver do? He notices the rink clock at zero and opens the door to clean the ice for the next game. That’s who is in charge!observer wrote:Maybe I didn't state it correctly but will stand by my comment, the ref is in charge. Do you think the players are? The coaches? The parents?
During the game, on the ice, the ref is in charge. He can also call what he wants as he sees it.
I have coached and have kid hockey players and kids love to fuss about this should have been called, or not called, for any number of reasons. I've always told them, the ref is in charge so you might want to consider adjusting your behavior. Period. I can also guarantee most players I've been involved with would have said to the ref, "I'm sorry sir, it will never happen again" no matter what the ref said. I never said it was ok for the ref to swear at a player. But, lots of babies out there. Player babies, coach babies and parent babies. And, babies love to make something out of nothing.
I did kind of like the suggestion to just slap the player with a delay of game penalty. The player, coach and parents really would have fussed then. It doesn't make any difference regarding the swearing but you also don't know if this player, team or association has any kind of history with annoying behavior. They are showing their annoying behavior now though. Is this a way to improve this association’s reputation? Or, could the fussing damage the association’s reputation?
Thx all. Seems as though about 50/50 as to whether this action by the ref was "acceptable" or not. We obviously firmly disagree with the 1/2 that think it was no big deal.
You can't equate maturity levels of a hockey player vs a ref unless we are talking about a mens league. Ref had a bad day doesn't give him a waiver to act as he did. While swearing at a player for some of you is acceptable, it's a ref code of conduct item for a reason, and it's not acceptable to us.
The intimidation tactics by this official are real and it is my uderstanding you could seek out many coaches that would say the same. Whether it ever went to the level it did this time, and/or whether there is already something in his "file" I don't know, but at least we have a start now.
We never called for a ban for life, a suspension and apology at minimum were maybe the goal.
We know our son learned a lesson the hard way, but based on the lack of any action from the other side, it would seem they did not. We'll move on. Thx again for the input.
You can't equate maturity levels of a hockey player vs a ref unless we are talking about a mens league. Ref had a bad day doesn't give him a waiver to act as he did. While swearing at a player for some of you is acceptable, it's a ref code of conduct item for a reason, and it's not acceptable to us.
The intimidation tactics by this official are real and it is my uderstanding you could seek out many coaches that would say the same. Whether it ever went to the level it did this time, and/or whether there is already something in his "file" I don't know, but at least we have a start now.
We never called for a ban for life, a suspension and apology at minimum were maybe the goal.
We know our son learned a lesson the hard way, but based on the lack of any action from the other side, it would seem they did not. We'll move on. Thx again for the input.
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dangle_snipe
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spin-o-rama
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TheJet wrote: we want this official removed for good
You're painting a onesided picture that is quite abstract.TheJet wrote:We never called for a ban for life
Now that you've identified yourself as the parent of the goalie, care to share what you have done as discipline for your son's actions? Or are you only concerned with wrecking vengeance on other people?TheJet wrote:We know our son learned a lesson the hard way.
spin-o-rama wrote:TheJet wrote: we want this official removed for goodYou're painting a onesided picture that is quite abstract.TheJet wrote:We never called for a ban for life
Now that you've identified yourself as the parent of the goalie, care to share what you have done as discipline for your son's actions? Or are you only concerned with wrecking vengeance on other people?TheJet wrote:We know our son learned a lesson the hard way.
Our initial reaction was to wait and confront the ref, then considered a ban for life via the INITIAL letter - with time we reconsidered on both.
We didn't see anything seriously wrong with the kids reaction to a goal scored, he watches upper level goalies do the same. As noted he learned the hard way to not do it again.
Amazing how many PMs I get which clearly identify the same ref.. Wish they would post, to show you it's not the kid in this situation, but I understand.
How do you know your talking about the same ref in your PM's about a certain ref without a name being given. Did the District give you this officials name? or have you gotten his number? Since your willing to punish everyone but your kid then don't blame anyone but yourself. Its a two way street here the official was wrong but so was your kid so if you wanna punish one punish both.