What's everyone's thought on Private schools playing in A? I'm talking about the STA, Brecks, Totino's, Duluth Marshall, Blake's of the world. The entire reason for creating two different classes was to give the smaller schools a fair chance to compete, that they lacked due to size. While these private schools do lack the number of students to be automatically put into AA, they also have an unfair competitive advantage the other A public schools lack. The ability to recruit, and go outside of the normal boundries soley to find hockey players.
So these schools to me are basically hiding in A, and settling for trips to the State tournament that in most eyes is second fiddle anyhow. You have to give credit to BSM, Hill Murray, and Cretin for playing up.
The state high school league created the tiers, and then the two classes to give more students an oppurtinuty for a State Championship, But the current state A rankings has 7 private schools in the top 10. I think it's an embarrasment for these schools to play weaker competition and be proud of it.
Every private school should have to play in AA, due to the unfair advantage they have, and give A back to the kids who really do deserve it.
Private Schools in A????
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old goalie85
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RangeHockeyFan1817
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announcerguy
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announcerguy
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I have said this before and I will say it again.
All private schools should be in class AA. Maybe not the tiny ones in towns of 100 or less, but teams like:
TG, RL, SCC, DM, HF, Prov, Blake, Breck and mostly STA should be in the varsity tournament. You are getting your players from all over so the then you need to be the bigger school and play AA like BSM, Hm and AHA.
Just saying...
I am a private school guy.....Who doesn't know this?
All private schools should be in class AA. Maybe not the tiny ones in towns of 100 or less, but teams like:
TG, RL, SCC, DM, HF, Prov, Blake, Breck and mostly STA should be in the varsity tournament. You are getting your players from all over so the then you need to be the bigger school and play AA like BSM, Hm and AHA.
Just saying...
I am a private school guy.....Who doesn't know this?
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duluth dave
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HShockeywatcher
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I have said this before and I will say it again.
I have no personal issue with any one specific private school team opting up. I'd personally love to see my alma mater there. Better for the school overall.
That being said, as was said, 7 of the top 10 are private now. Imagine all 7 of them, plus others, in AA. AA wouldn't get that much better and A would get significantly worse. It would have a dramatic impact on the two class system, imo.
You want them in AA? Put them all in AA, then fill it with the biggest public programs to get to 64 (or 72) teams with no opts. Allowing teams to opt up and forcing schools up for being private ruins the two class system, which I doubt is going anywhere.
It's an imperfect system filled with people pointing fingers instead of trying to fix it.
Fyi, if private schools weren't in Class A, the same number of players/teams would get to play in the state tournament.
I have no personal issue with any one specific private school team opting up. I'd personally love to see my alma mater there. Better for the school overall.
That being said, as was said, 7 of the top 10 are private now. Imagine all 7 of them, plus others, in AA. AA wouldn't get that much better and A would get significantly worse. It would have a dramatic impact on the two class system, imo.
You want them in AA? Put them all in AA, then fill it with the biggest public programs to get to 64 (or 72) teams with no opts. Allowing teams to opt up and forcing schools up for being private ruins the two class system, which I doubt is going anywhere.
It's an imperfect system filled with people pointing fingers instead of trying to fix it.
Fyi, if private schools weren't in Class A, the same number of players/teams would get to play in the state tournament.
Last edited by HShockeywatcher on Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's exceedingly unlikely that anybody's mind is going to be changed at this point after all the debate that's gone on. And I think it's good to be careful not to make it sound like you're blaming the players on the private school teams that play in class A - these are 15- to 18-year-old kids, after all, whose families make decisions on where to go to school for a whole host of reasons, many of which have nothing to do with sports.
Having said that . . . if you're old enough to remember the public debate about this in the 80s and early 90s, you know that what's going on in Class A hockey in no way resembles what the supporters of two-class hockey hoped would occur. The whole idea was to provide an opportunity for schools and kids who literally had no chance to reach a state tournament. Had you told the people who fought for two-class hockey that schools like Breck and St. Thomas Academy would dominate Class A, primarily with players who came from communities with dominant youth programs, and with teams that can compete with the best Class AA teams, they probably would have said "why are we even bothering with this?"
As I said, don't blame the kids. Blame the state high school league for not doing something after it became obvious that the outcome of going to two classes differed so much from what was intended. And blame school adminstrators and coaches who see nothing wrong with competing at a level lower than the skill level of their teams dictates.
Having said that . . . if you're old enough to remember the public debate about this in the 80s and early 90s, you know that what's going on in Class A hockey in no way resembles what the supporters of two-class hockey hoped would occur. The whole idea was to provide an opportunity for schools and kids who literally had no chance to reach a state tournament. Had you told the people who fought for two-class hockey that schools like Breck and St. Thomas Academy would dominate Class A, primarily with players who came from communities with dominant youth programs, and with teams that can compete with the best Class AA teams, they probably would have said "why are we even bothering with this?"
As I said, don't blame the kids. Blame the state high school league for not doing something after it became obvious that the outcome of going to two classes differed so much from what was intended. And blame school adminstrators and coaches who see nothing wrong with competing at a level lower than the skill level of their teams dictates.
Re: Private Schools in A????
Huh, never thought of it that way.announcerguy wrote:What's everyone's thought on Private schools playing in A? I'm talking about the STA, Brecks, Totino's, Duluth Marshall, Blake's of the world. The entire reason for creating two different classes was to give the smaller schools a fair chance to compete, that they lacked due to size. While these private schools do lack the number of students to be automatically put into AA, they also have an unfair competitive advantage the other A public schools lack. The ability to recruit, and go outside of the normal boundries soley to find hockey players.
So these schools to me are basically hiding in A, and settling for trips to the State tournament that in most eyes is second fiddle anyhow. You have to give credit to BSM, Hill Murray, and Cretin for playing up.
The state high school league created the tiers, and then the two classes to give more students an oppurtinuty for a State Championship, But the current state A rankings has 7 private schools in the top 10. I think it's an embarrasment for these schools to play weaker competition and be proud of it.
Every private school should have to play in AA, due to the unfair advantage they have, and give A back to the kids who really do deserve it.
I strongly believe privates need to opt up to AA. Speaking for my hometown here, we have had our season ended short the past six years, five of which by private schools playing in class A. For the privates that wish to say "Our student body isn't large enough," I reply with this-
The Minneapolis Novas play in AA. Now granted they are not a private school, but a conglomerate of teams/towns playing under one title (much like most privates do). When asked if they would play in A or AA they chose AA because if you add the student bodies of all the schools they are pulling players from, they would be a AA school.
Add all the student bodies of the privates from the districts in which these players are from and see what the result is.
Or as I've heard before in the case of STA, they should have to double their student body since they are an all boys school. I'm not entirely sure that is the "perfect" solution either, but as the headmaster comes out and says "We don't want to be known as a hockey school, that is why we aren't moving up," one would believe that most would view a school as a "hockey school" by winning state routinely. It's the victories which define a program as a "hockey school/program" not playing in class A or AA, correct? Exactly. It seems a bit hypocritical to me...
The Minneapolis Novas play in AA. Now granted they are not a private school, but a conglomerate of teams/towns playing under one title (much like most privates do). When asked if they would play in A or AA they chose AA because if you add the student bodies of all the schools they are pulling players from, they would be a AA school.
Add all the student bodies of the privates from the districts in which these players are from and see what the result is.
Or as I've heard before in the case of STA, they should have to double their student body since they are an all boys school. I'm not entirely sure that is the "perfect" solution either, but as the headmaster comes out and says "We don't want to be known as a hockey school, that is why we aren't moving up," one would believe that most would view a school as a "hockey school" by winning state routinely. It's the victories which define a program as a "hockey school/program" not playing in class A or AA, correct? Exactly. It seems a bit hypocritical to me...
Re: Private Schools in A????
I agree with this and think it's about time that some of these schools opt up to AA. But the last few years, there has been some outstanding hockey at the state tourney for both classes. I think the class A will get more and more people at the games in St Paul if this continues.announcerguy wrote:What's everyone's thought on Private schools playing in A? I'm talking about the STA, Brecks, Totino's, Duluth Marshall, Blake's of the world. The entire reason for creating two different classes was to give the smaller schools a fair chance to compete, that they lacked due to size. While these private schools do lack the number of students to be automatically put into AA, they also have an unfair competitive advantage the other A public schools lack. The ability to recruit, and go outside of the normal boundries soley to find hockey players.
So these schools to me are basically hiding in A, and settling for trips to the State tournament that in most eyes is second fiddle anyhow. You have to give credit to BSM, Hill Murray, and Cretin for playing up.
The state high school league created the tiers, and then the two classes to give more students an oppurtinuty for a State Championship, But the current state A rankings has 7 private schools in the top 10. I think it's an embarrasment for these schools to play weaker competition and be proud of it.
Every private school should have to play in AA, due to the unfair advantage they have, and give A back to the kids who really do deserve it.
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warriors41
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I don't care if privates like STA and Breck stay in class A at all. Honestly, it's like they are blowing away their competition in the tournament. The last two years Hermantown had golden opportunities to beat both Breck and STA in the championship and just couldn't finish or fell victim to bad breaks. It isn't as if these teams aren't unbeatable for public schools. Plus, it adds the dimension of the so called "bad guys" that every one likes to cheer against. I like having those teams like the Yankees that everyone can put the energy into hating.
Another part that makes me want to keep them there is the level of competition. It's nice for small schools to get to win a championship, but it shouldn't be handed to them. With the level of play in class A already in question, why would you want to pressure some of the best teams to opt up? You'd make it a complete joke. At least STA and Breck can give big AA schools a run for their money. Say what you want, but I honestly believe that these schools give class A at least a little credibility which is important to me.
We wouldn't even have this problem of private school domination if teams were forced to play in the class they were assigned with no opt ups. That the change I would love to see. Then, we'd have two great tournaments. Class A would be much more respected if teams like Bemidji, Roseau, Grand Rapids, and others stayed in their class. It would also make it that much harder for privates to win. So, instead of making them go up, make everyone go back to where they are supposed to be. That's what makes most sense to me.
Another part that makes me want to keep them there is the level of competition. It's nice for small schools to get to win a championship, but it shouldn't be handed to them. With the level of play in class A already in question, why would you want to pressure some of the best teams to opt up? You'd make it a complete joke. At least STA and Breck can give big AA schools a run for their money. Say what you want, but I honestly believe that these schools give class A at least a little credibility which is important to me.
We wouldn't even have this problem of private school domination if teams were forced to play in the class they were assigned with no opt ups. That the change I would love to see. Then, we'd have two great tournaments. Class A would be much more respected if teams like Bemidji, Roseau, Grand Rapids, and others stayed in their class. It would also make it that much harder for privates to win. So, instead of making them go up, make everyone go back to where they are supposed to be. That's what makes most sense to me.
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TheClipper
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Mr. Announcer Guy,
If the A tourney is, as you say, a "second fiddle" tourney, what the $@£# do you care who plays in it?
The MSHSL, with input from all concerned parties, went to a two class system to involve more schools in a year end tourney. It has done exactly that. The fact you don't like certain A teams is in no way an indictment of the current format.
If the A tourney is, as you say, a "second fiddle" tourney, what the $@£# do you care who plays in it?
The MSHSL, with input from all concerned parties, went to a two class system to involve more schools in a year end tourney. It has done exactly that. The fact you don't like certain A teams is in no way an indictment of the current format.
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hockeyfan893
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There are other sports besides hockey in the world, which is something I think many people on this board are quick to forget. Minnesota, as a state, tends to be very strong at the high school hockey level, but just consider how many more sports there are and how many other student-athletes there are besides hockey players. Many argue that private schools are guilty of "recruiting", but do you really think a school like Hill-Murray or Breck recruits for XC, Track, Lacrosse, Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer for both girls and boys divisions?
Let's be honest here. THE VAST MAJORITY of all private school student-athletes are students first, athletes second. Private schools often great education opportunities. To force all the private schools to play in their own conference and tournament, isolating them completely from every school in the state, is not fair to the student-athlete who wants to be able to get a better education than can be offered elsewhere, as well as compete in State sanctioned athletics.
Let's be honest here. THE VAST MAJORITY of all private school student-athletes are students first, athletes second. Private schools often great education opportunities. To force all the private schools to play in their own conference and tournament, isolating them completely from every school in the state, is not fair to the student-athlete who wants to be able to get a better education than can be offered elsewhere, as well as compete in State sanctioned athletics.
Re: Private Schools in A????
It's high school. Not about the money here...chief22 wrote:I agree with this and think it's about time that some of these schools opt up to AA. But the last few years, there has been some outstanding hockey at the state tourney for both classes. I think the class A will get more and more people at the games in St Paul if this continues.announcerguy wrote:What's everyone's thought on Private schools playing in A? I'm talking about the STA, Brecks, Totino's, Duluth Marshall, Blake's of the world. The entire reason for creating two different classes was to give the smaller schools a fair chance to compete, that they lacked due to size. While these private schools do lack the number of students to be automatically put into AA, they also have an unfair competitive advantage the other A public schools lack. The ability to recruit, and go outside of the normal boundries soley to find hockey players.
So these schools to me are basically hiding in A, and settling for trips to the State tournament that in most eyes is second fiddle anyhow. You have to give credit to BSM, Hill Murray, and Cretin for playing up.
The state high school league created the tiers, and then the two classes to give more students an oppurtinuty for a State Championship, But the current state A rankings has 7 private schools in the top 10. I think it's an embarrasment for these schools to play weaker competition and be proud of it.
Every private school should have to play in AA, due to the unfair advantage they have, and give A back to the kids who really do deserve it.
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Saywhat?03
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Someone ALWAYS has to bring up this ORIGINAL topic every year around state tourney time. Funny thing is... IF Hermantown and STA meet again in the championship game. It could easily be one of the most attended Class A championship games in a LONG time! These two teams have been on a collision course all year long, and would easily make the best class A championship game matchup!!
warriors41 wrote: Plus, it adds the dimension of the so called "bad guys" that every one likes to cheer against. I like having those teams like the Yankees that everyone can put the energy into hating.
New teams would become the "bad guys".
With the level of play in class A already in question, why would you want to pressure some of the best teams to opt up?
Who's questioning it?
You'd make it a complete joke.
I think every town, team, school, and many others would disagree.
At least STA and Breck can give big AA schools a run for their money.
EXACTLY!
if teams were forced to play in the class they were assigned with no opt ups. That the change I would love to see. Then, we'd have two great tournaments. Class A would be much more respected if teams like Bemidji, Roseau, Grand Rapids, and others stayed in their class. make everyone go back to where they are supposed to be.
I agree with this
Maybe most of the lower bowl will be filled....Saywhat?03 wrote:Someone ALWAYS has to bring up this ORIGINAL topic every year around state tourney time. Funny thing is... IF Hermantown and STA meet again in the championship game. It could easily be one of the most attended Class A championship games in a LONG time! These two teams have been on a collision course all year long, and would easily make the best class A championship game matchup!!
HShockeywatcher wrote:I have said this before and I will say it again.
I have no personal issue with any one specific private school team opting up. I'd personally love to see my alma mater there. Better for the school overall.
That being said, as was said, 7 of the top 10 are private now. Imagine all 7 of them, plus others, in AA. AA wouldn't get that much better and A would get significantly worse. It would have a dramatic impact on the two class system, imo.
You want them in AA? Put them all in AA, then fill it with the biggest public programs to get to 64 (or 72) teams with no opts. Allowing teams to opt up and forcing schools up for being private ruins the two class system, which I doubt is going anywhere.
It's an imperfect system filled with people pointing fingers instead of trying to fix it.
Fyi, if private schools weren't in Class A, the same number of players/teams would get to play in the state tournament.
Who cares if AA did not get much better with privates opting up. And Class A would not get significantly worse, but significantly fairer.
Re: Private Schools in A????
Oh it's high school...thanks mr helper! Who said anything about money? I'm talking about the atmosphere at the state tourney. It's some great hockey and it seems like the crowds get bigger every year for A. Yeah it does generate more money when its a big crowd, but that wasn't my point...MHGr8ness wrote:It's high school. Not about the money here...chief22 wrote:I agree with this and think it's about time that some of these schools opt up to AA. But the last few years, there has been some outstanding hockey at the state tourney for both classes. I think the class A will get more and more people at the games in St Paul if this continues.announcerguy wrote:What's everyone's thought on Private schools playing in A? I'm talking about the STA, Brecks, Totino's, Duluth Marshall, Blake's of the world. The entire reason for creating two different classes was to give the smaller schools a fair chance to compete, that they lacked due to size. While these private schools do lack the number of students to be automatically put into AA, they also have an unfair competitive advantage the other A public schools lack. The ability to recruit, and go outside of the normal boundries soley to find hockey players.
So these schools to me are basically hiding in A, and settling for trips to the State tournament that in most eyes is second fiddle anyhow. You have to give credit to BSM, Hill Murray, and Cretin for playing up.
The state high school league created the tiers, and then the two classes to give more students an oppurtinuty for a State Championship, But the current state A rankings has 7 private schools in the top 10. I think it's an
embarrasment for these schools to play weaker competition and be proud of it.
Every private school should have to play in AA, due to the unfair advantage they have, and give A back to the kids who really do deserve it.