Private Schools in A????

[hockeydad]

hockey dad sounds like a private school guy to me.

Not a private school guy. In fact, a former hockey dad who has seen his Missota Conference/Section 1A team repeatedly come up short against Holy Angels and Lourdes (until this year with HA, and hopefully, Lourdes).

It's just that this topic gets beaten do death about four or five times a year like a dead horse. That's why I put the head against the brick wall emoticon.

[Roy01]

hockey dad sounds like a private school guy to me.

Not a private school guy. In fact, a former hockey dad who has seen his Missota Conference/Section 1A team repeatedly come up short against Holy Angels and Lourdes (until this year with HA, and hopefully, Lourdes).

It's just that this topic gets beaten do death about four or five times a year like a dead horse. That's why I put the head against the brick wall emoticon.

Ahhh so we've got a Red Wing man in here, yes? Or recently New Prague, take your pick.

[rainier]

It's tough to watch the private schools dominate real community schools just because they have access to orders of magnitude more kids. To me, the spirit of the creation of Class A was the idea that smaller schools will have a great class come through once in a while, make a 2-3 year run, and then fade for a few years. It was meant to be cyclical and exciting, just like the one class tourney was.

AA fans, imagine if Shattuck were allowed to join the MSHSL and they won the title 8 out of every ten years. Wouldn't that suck really hard? Wouldn't the significant advantages Shattuck had make you want to cry foul? Imagine no East, no Rapids, no Edina, no Roseau, no EP, no schools with rich traditions and rabid fans would ever be hoisting that trophy. Wouldn't you all lose your minds?

I don't know what the solution is other than teams like Breck and STA just opting up now that their programs have reached such a high level. Maybe they should just put all of the A private schools into one section. Duluth Marshall and Lourdes already do plenty of traveling, so it wouldn't be too tough to work out a schedule.

To the Einsteins that think the A tourney would suck if the privates left: It wouldn't. Plenty of A and AA fans enjoy the A tourney now and they would like it even more if there were more parity, which would be the case if the dominant private schools would just opt up already.

One last question:
Does STA refuse to move up to AA because they know they'd have to get by Hill-Murray every year? Maybe they should stay in A.

[TheSiouxSuck]

Maybe I'm alone on this but I enjoy the A tournament just as much and possibly more than the AA tournament. Sure the teams arent as deep and the arena isnt as packed, but how many people can warroad (with a population of ~1700) send to cheer their team on?

Watching the Festler, Hanowski, Hanowski line in 07 battle Hermantown or the fight they put up in 08 against STA. The Walters brothers almost single-handedly giving a sub .500 Hibbing team the 3rd place trophy in 04. Hell even seeing Orono ruin Warroads chances for a 3-peat in 04 were some of the most exciting tournament memories I have.

[rbkhockey97]

This thread is a joke. If you really think private schools "recruit" you are extremely uneducated. Both my two sons attend Totino-Grace and 99.9 % of the students who are there chose that school for academic/religious reasons. I am sure it is the same as STA, Breck, Blake, Marshall, and Cathedral. I think these schools have built a good name for themselves, and their hockey programs. If you want the same advantage as a public school begin open enrollment and post billboard ads stating how good your program could be if everyone good collectively comes here. Yes, I think that if a family was deciding where their son should attend HS and it was between Providence Academy and Totino-Grace, and the son "happened" to be good at hockey, of course he would attend Totino because they have a much more solid program. This doesn't mean they are "recruiting" at all. I think these schools are great for class A. If you look at the state tournament only about 3 or 4 of the schools are private schools. Yes, there are many more public schools than private, but still, can you even include schools like Luverne or whoever in the "public school" category? Being from Totino, seeing both TG play STA and Hermantown, I certainly think Hermantown is better than STA. Not by much, but they are better. So don't complain about the private schools that knock your "hometown boys" out every year, if so, build your program better like Hermantown, Mahtomedi, TRF, and EGF have done.

[Zamman]

This thread is a joke. If you really think private schools "recruit" you are extremely uneducated. Both my two sons attend Totino-Grace and 99.9 % of the students who are there chose that school for academic/religious reasons. I am sure it is the same as STA, Breck, Blake, Marshall, and Cathedral. I think these schools have built a good name for themselves, and their hockey programs. If you want the same advantage as a public school begin open enrollment and post billboard ads stating how good your program could be if everyone good collectively comes here. Yes, I think that if a family was deciding where their son should attend HS and it was between Providence Academy and Totino-Grace, and the son "happened" to be good at hockey, of course he would attend Totino because they have a much more solid program. This doesn't mean they are "recruiting" at all. I think these schools are great for class A. If you look at the state tournament only about 3 or 4 of the schools are private schools. Yes, there are many more public schools than private, but still, can you even include schools like Luverne or whoever in the "public school" category? Being from Totino, seeing both TG play STA and Hermantown, I certainly think Hermantown is better than STA. Not by much, but they are better. So don't complain about the private schools that knock your "hometown boys" out every year, if so, build your program better like Hermantown, Mahtomedi, TRF, and EGF have done.

You broke a rule. You brought up the "R" word. This is not about that, it is about the fact that Private schools draw from all over and have All Star teams. I know, I am a huge AHA supporter and know all the rhetoric....I went to AHA, played at AHA and my kids go to public school.
The real fact of the matter is these local privates can compete in the real tournament and should.

[sachishi4]

rainier: I highly doubt STA would be in the same section as HM if they opted up, so I doubt that is a concern.

STA and breck are the only schools I personally think should opt up. Maybe duluth marshall too. Maybe.

Besides, if there were no privates in A, who would everyone cheer against

Also, not trying to defend STA here, but they have only really been relevant for the last 5 - 7 years.

[MHGr8ness]

I agree with this and think it's about time that some of these schools opt up to AA. But the last few years, there has been some outstanding hockey at the state tourney for both classes. I think the class A will get more and more people at the games in St Paul if this continues.

It's high school. Not about the money here...

Oh it's high school...thanks mr helper! Who said anything about money? I'm talking about the atmosphere at the state tourney. It's some great hockey and it seems like the crowds get bigger every year for A. Yeah it does generate more money when its a big crowd, but that wasn't my point...

You're even farther off here... do you think anyone who's ever won the state championship thought to themself, "Hey that was ok, but there wasn't enough atmosphere." ?? NO. It's probably one of the highlights of their life.

[TheSiouxSuck]

This thread is a joke. If you really think private schools "recruit" you are extremely uneducated. Both my two sons attend Totino-Grace and 99.9 % of the students who are there chose that school for academic/religious reasons. I am sure it is the same as STA, Breck, Blake, Marshall, and Cathedral. I think these schools have built a good name for themselves, and their hockey programs. If you want the same advantage as a public school begin open enrollment and post billboard ads stating how good your program could be if everyone good collectively comes here. Yes, I think that if a family was deciding where their son should attend HS and it was between Providence Academy and Totino-Grace, and the son "happened" to be good at hockey, of course he would attend Totino because they have a much more solid program. This doesn't mean they are "recruiting" at all. I think these schools are great for class A. If you look at the state tournament only about 3 or 4 of the schools are private schools. Yes, there are many more public schools than private, but still, can you even include schools like Luverne or whoever in the "public school" category? Being from Totino, seeing both TG play STA and Hermantown, I certainly think Hermantown is better than STA. Not by much, but they are better. So don't complain about the private schools that knock your "hometown boys" out every year, if so, build your program better like Hermantown, Mahtomedi, TRF, and EGF have done.

The problem begins where you have non catholic students attending catholic high schools ect. I'm sure many of the students at private schools chose those schools for non athletic related reasons, however, many of the athletes being admitted have a reputation for excelling at their sport rather than in the classroom. The recruiting allegations really come into swing when those students with athletic reputations are bumped to the top of the waiting lists over traditional academic students who go to the parochial schools.

[MHGr8ness]

This thread is a joke. If you really think private schools "recruit" you are extremely uneducated. Both my two sons attend Totino-Grace and 99.9 % of the students who are there chose that school for academic/religious reasons. I am sure it is the same as STA, Breck, Blake, Marshall, and Cathedral. I think these schools have built a good name for themselves, and their hockey programs. If you want the same advantage as a public school begin open enrollment and post billboard ads stating how good your program could be if everyone good collectively comes here. Yes, I think that if a family was deciding where their son should attend HS and it was between Providence Academy and Totino-Grace, and the son "happened" to be good at hockey, of course he would attend Totino because they have a much more solid program. This doesn't mean they are "recruiting" at all. I think these schools are great for class A. If you look at the state tournament only about 3 or 4 of the schools are private schools. Yes, there are many more public schools than private, but still, can you even include schools like Luverne or whoever in the "public school" category? Being from Totino, seeing both TG play STA and Hermantown, I certainly think Hermantown is better than STA. Not by much, but they are better. So don't complain about the private schools that knock your "hometown boys" out every year, if so, build your program better like Hermantown, Mahtomedi, TRF, and EGF have done.

If it's all about religion and academics then they won't mind being bumped up will they?

3 to 4?
1- only private school is also the top seed
2- very likely that the top two seed will be privates
3- no private here, so that's why none come from there. coincidentally their representative is the worst team at state almost every year... coincidence?
4-very likely that the top two seeds are privates
5- exception! however, cathedral is still a top team year in year out
6- no privates here either. again is it a coincidence that they're one of the weakest sections?
7- only private is also the top seed
8- no privates

So really if things play out the way that they should... there will be 5 private teams. two public schools are guaranteed to make it, because there's also no private school to beat them.

It looks like the majority will be privates, despite the fact that they're much fewer in number. Also interesting is that if you look at the Hub's top ten you'll see all privates except for Hermantwon, TRF, and EGF.

[HShockeywatcher]

We wouldn't even have this problem of private school domination if teams were forced to play in the class they were assigned with no opt ups. That the change I would love to see. Then, we'd have two great tournaments. Class A would be much more respected if teams like Bemidji, Roseau, Grand Rapids, and others stayed in their class. It would also make it that much harder for privates to win. So, instead of making them go up, make everyone go back to where they are supposed to be. That's what makes most sense to me.

We have a winner! Funny that when I say it I get jumped, but when someone else says it, it seems to make sense

The real fact of the matter is these local privates can compete in the real tournament and should.

So should everyone that can compete opt up?

It's tough to watch the private schools dominate real community schools just because they have access to orders of magnitude more kids.

It isn't really that. It's different for each situation, but each has done whatever they can to attract what they need to be successful. Imo, the idea that this isn't done in public schools is ludicrous.


This thread (and all the similar ones) is full of lots of finger pointing and very few real solutions. The issue isn't that the private schools are doing well, the issue is that the public schools are not. I highly doubt it would be good overall for MN hockey if all private schools were put in AA nor would it help. Why are all the solutions to knock those doing well instead of ideas to help those who are?

Imagine a schools system designed that way...

[chief22]

It's high school. Not about the money here...

Oh it's high school...thanks mr helper! Who said anything about money? I'm talking about the atmosphere at the state tourney. It's some great hockey and it seems like the crowds get bigger every year for A. Yeah it does generate more money when its a big crowd, but that wasn't my point...

You're even farther off here... do you think anyone who's ever won the state championship thought to themself, "Hey that was ok, but there wasn't enough atmosphere." ?? NO. It's probably one of the highlights of their life.

We'll go ahead then..Have Hermantown play Little House on the Prairie in the finals and win 12-0. In front of 40 people...I just won't be one of them.

[MrBoDangles]

STA has made a mockery out of something that is held dear by the people of Minnesota.

Shame to the STA faculty!!!

[flatontheice]

There are other sports besides hockey in the world, which is something I think many people on this board are quick to forget. Minnesota, as a state, tends to be very strong at the high school hockey level, but just consider how many more sports there are and how many other student-athletes there are besides hockey players. Many argue that private schools are guilty of "recruiting", but do you really think a school like Hill-Murray or Breck recruits for XC, Track, Lacrosse, Basketball, Football, Baseball, Soccer for both girls and boys divisions?

Let's be honest here. THE VAST MAJORITY of all private school student-athletes are students first, athletes second. Private schools often great education opportunities. To force all the private schools to play in their own conference and tournament, isolating them completely from every school in the state, is not fair to the student-athlete who wants to be able to get a better education than can be offered elsewhere, as well as compete in State sanctioned athletics.

If you threw all the private schools in one class and had them play in their own tournament, it would strengthen the private schools even more over time. The same situation ruined high school hockey in Massachusetts now ALL the best players play at the "prep" schools. "Be careful what you ask for" is the best advice I have heard when it comes to this topic.

[MNhockeyNut]

GREAT ANOTHER TIER in hockey, I hated it when it went to two tiers!
I guess am one of the few that still hates 2 tier hockey….
Private school tourney…We already did this !!! Does anybody remember why we ended it?
If we move to a 3rd tier tourney, how long until people are going to be complaining that EP, Wayzata, win the AA tourney all the time? Complaining that a medium size school can win in AA but too big to play in A. The answer… add another tier! So every team can play in the tourney just like basketball and football.
I vote to preserve the Great Minnesota High School Tournament. One tier and quit your damn crying, and play “Minnesota” High school hockey!!

[chief22]

GREAT ANOTHER TIER in hockey, I hated it when it went to two tiers!
I guess am one of the few that still hates 2 tier hockey….
Private school tourney…We already did this !!! Does anybody remember why we ended it?
If we move to a 3rd tier tourney, how long until people are going to be complaining that EP, Wayzata, win the AA tourney all the time? Complaining that a medium size school can win in AA but too big to play in A. The answer… add another tier! So every team can play in the tourney just like basketball and football.
I vote to preserve the Great Minnesota High School Tournament. One tier and quit your damn crying, and play “Minnesota” High school hockey!!

Nut is the winner....agreed!

[flatontheice]

We wouldn't even have this problem of private school domination if teams were forced to play in the class they were assigned with no opt ups. That the change I would love to see. Then, we'd have two great tournaments. Class A would be much more respected if teams like Bemidji, Roseau, Grand Rapids, and others stayed in their class. It would also make it that much harder for privates to win. So, instead of making them go up, make everyone go back to where they are supposed to be. That's what makes most sense to me.

We have a winner! Funny that when I say it I get jumped, but when someone else says it, it seems to make sense

The real fact of the matter is these local privates can compete in the real tournament and should.

So should everyone that can compete opt up?

It's tough to watch the private schools dominate real community schools just because they have access to orders of magnitude more kids.

It isn't really that. It's different for each situation, but each has done whatever they can to attract what they need to be successful. Imo, the idea that this isn't done in public schools is ludicrous.


This thread (and all the similar ones) is full of lots of finger pointing and very few real solutions. The issue isn't that the private schools are doing well, the issue is that the public schools are not. I highly doubt it would be good overall for MN hockey if all private schools were put in AA nor would it help. Why are all the solutions to knock those doing well instead of ideas to help those who are?

Imagine a schools system designed that way...

One other point. Lets not be naive here and think that the successful "small community" schools have had success with only the local talent. Grand Rapids and Warroad in particular has benefited from the same open enrollment rules as the private schools. And why do STA,Totino, Breck, Blake always get grouped together with no mention of St. Cloud Cathedral, Rochester Lourdes or Duluth Marshall? STA and Breck make a joke of the two classes with complete different enrollment and financial criteria for hockey players. Everyone knows it and no one (MSHSL) does anything about it and until they do, they will keep on rolling along in Class A embarrassing lesser community based opponents.

As a reference point, St. Cloud Cathedral, Rochester Lourdes, Totino, Blake, Minnehaha, St Paul Academy, and Providence have 1 Class A championship between them in the last 40 years.

[rainier]

It's tough to watch the private schools dominate real community schools just because they have access to orders of magnitude more kids.

It isn't really that. It's different for each situation, but each has done whatever they can to attract what they need to be successful. Imo, the idea that this isn't done in public schools is ludicrous.

HSHW, how can you say this with a straight face? Do you really believe the dominance of private schools in A has nothing to do with having access to WAY more kids? I know you aren't that stupid, come on now. And how can the public A schools "attract what they need to be successful"? Teams like TRF, I-Falls, Little Falls, etc., the kids they have are all they have, they can't attract players from all over because it's physically impossible.

In places like Hibbing and Virginia, sure, all the kids could choose to play at one of the schools, but 1) their parents would have to move, per MSHSL rules, and 2) people in these communities just wouldn't do this, they have something called "community pride" that is backed by years of tradition, something these private schools know nothing about.

If you took last year's Rapids team that was a clear top 10 AA team and added the 5 all-state players from Hibbing and Virginia, they would have very likely won state. But these kids want to represent their communities and value playing with their friends more than they value winning at all costs.


This thread (and all the similar ones) is full of lots of finger pointing and very few real solutions. The issue isn't that the private schools are doing well, the issue is that the public schools are not. I highly doubt it would be good overall for MN hockey if all private schools were put in AA nor would it help. Why are all the solutions to knock those doing well instead of ideas to help those who are?

The public A schools are doing just fine. For their enrollment sizes, TRF, EGF, Little Falls, Hibbing, Virginia, etc. are putting good teams on the ice. And if you re-read my earlier post, I offered a solution, and yes I am pointing fingers, squarely at the officials at the dominant private schools that refuse to opt up. BSM, AHA, and other privates realize that beating up on community schools makes them look bad, so they opt up and they are willing to sacrifice being in the title game every season so that they can keep their pride. Teams like Breck and STA should follow their lead; it would be a great lesson in ethics for their students.

[BodyShots]

Maybe I'm alone on this but I enjoy the A tournament just as much and possibly more than the AA tournament. Sure the teams arent as deep and the arena isnt as packed, but how many people can warroad (with a population of ~1700) send to cheer their team on?

Watching the Festler, Hanowski, Hanowski line in 07 battle Hermantown or the fight they put up in 08 against STA. The Walters brothers almost single-handedly giving a sub .500 Hibbing team the 3rd place trophy in 04. Hell even seeing Orono ruin Warroads chances for a 3-peat in 04 were some of the most exciting tournament memories I have.

Not alone, but in a small group.

[bsmguy]

Flat is right. If the privates have their own class, it won't be long before they go Tier 1 Midget, with 60-game season and all that goes with it.

Recruiting is not a private school advantage. for example: East, Tonka and Edina all have important players that they recruited from other youth hockey programs and schools.

If you want to make all the strongest teams play AA, then you need a rule allowing AA teams more (or A teams less) off season development time and/or a longer season. That would make AA teams way better than A teams.

Right now, the best A teams (Breck, STA, Hermantown, TRF, maybe others) are just as good as the top ten AA teams. That's the way it should be, given the equal opportunity the classes are given to develop their players.

[BodyShots]

GREAT ANOTHER TIER in hockey, I hated it when it went to two tiers!
I guess am one of the few that still hates 2 tier hockey….
Private school tourney…We already did this !!! Does anybody remember why we ended it?
If we move to a 3rd tier tourney, how long until people are going to be complaining that EP, Wayzata, win the AA tourney all the time? Complaining that a medium size school can win in AA but too big to play in A. The answer… add another tier! So every team can play in the tourney just like basketball and football.
I vote to preserve the Great Minnesota High School Tournament. One tier and quit your damn crying, and play “Minnesota” High school hockey!!

Nut is the winner....agreed!

[rainier]

The solution is for A teams that can consistently compete with the top 10 AA teams to just opt up. If your team has a great chance of doing very well in AA, why the heck wouldn't you go for it? If Hibbing had an upcoming stretch of classes that was going to make them a top 10 AA caliber team, I would be screaming for them to opt up. They did exactly this from about 96-01, when they had some fantastic teams (PageStat rankings: 5, 22, 13, 11, 12). They got edged out by East and Elk River in 7AA, but I was much more satisfied watching them go for the big prize than I would have been watching them crush A opponents.

The solution to this is right in the hands of the schools that have developed programs that can successfully compete at the highest levels of AA consistently, yet refuse to do so. Do these schools have trophy cases? Or do they just let their "hollow" trophies float around in the hallways?

This comes down to ethics and dignity, qualities these schools should be teaching their students by doing the right thing.

[northern_guy]

What's everyone's thought on Private schools playing in A? I'm talking about the STA, Brecks, Totino's, Duluth Marshall, Blake's of the world. The entire reason for creating two different classes was to give the smaller schools a fair chance to compete, that they lacked due to size. While these private schools do lack the number of students to be automatically put into AA, they also have an unfair competitive advantage the other A public schools lack. The ability to recruit, and go outside of the normal boundries soley to find hockey players.
So these schools to me are basically hiding in A, and settling for trips to the State tournament that in most eyes is second fiddle anyhow. You have to give credit to BSM, Hill Murray, and Cretin for playing up.
The state high school league created the tiers, and then the two classes to give more students an oppurtinuty for a State Championship, But the current state A rankings has 7 private schools in the top 10. I think it's an embarrasment for these schools to play weaker competition and be proud of it.

Every private school should have to play in AA, due to the unfair advantage they have, and give A back to the kids who really do deserve it.

public schools recruit too if they are smart or have a desirable school to go to. private schools have the same rules that you must sit out if you transfer withouth actually moving to a new house in a district. so quit your whining. earn that state title and quit wanting everything on a platter.

[northern_guy]

no one wants to watch new ulm play hutchinson sorry.

[blindref]

Believe it or not, the MSHSL had it right with basketball a few years ago.
Leave class AA and A alone through sections.
Setup a sweet sixteen format.
The first round games are done inside of your class.
First round winners from both classes then move on together towards crowning one champion from all remaining teams.
You would see Hermantown vs. Eden Prairie, TR Falls vs. Hill, Lourdes vs. East and the X would be full for all winner bracket games instead of just AA.