Goalies playing for 2 teams during district playoffs?

THEBUCKSTOPSHERE · Post by **THEBUCKSTOPSHERE** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:18 am

I'm wondering if someone can help me understand the Minnesota Hockey or District 10 rules relative to adding a second goaltender to your team during [u]district[/u] playoffs. I see the language in the MH handbook - and that seems to address only the regional and state playoffs.

We have a situation brewing over here in D10 where a goaltender yesterday played for 2 different teams on the same day. Not just dressed as a backup, but played for the second team because their goalie was on vacation.

Can a goalie really be actively playing for two teams in the same classification at the same time??

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:13 am

From MH handbook section VI "team composition." D6 uses these guidelines for district play, it's likely that D10 does, too. I assume part D is what applied in your situation.

C. It is recommended that each team in the state and regional tournaments dress two goalies. If the team does not have two goalies, a SPARE goalie may be chosen from a team in its league or association, and such a "spare goalie" may be chosen from the same or a lower but not higher playing classification. 1. If a "spare" goalie is not available from within a team’s league or association, a "spare" goalie may then be chosen from among the teams in its district; or failing the above, from its regional. 2. Such a "spare" goalie may play ONLY in the case of injury to the regular goalie. 3. The “spare” goalie shall wear the light or dark jersey of the in-season team on which they are rostered. 4. The "spare" goalie retains their eligibility with their parent team or organization at their original classifica- tion for the balance of the playing season whether or not they actually play in the tournament in question. 5. The "spare" goalie must be properly registered on a MH team for the season in question to be eligible to participate in a regional or state tournament. Proof of registration, such as a copy of their parent team's registration roster will be required during tournament check-in. NOTE: the objective of the rule is to allow a team to obtain a back-up goalkeeper during regional and state MH play. The rule is not intended to permit teams to improve their goaltending through drafting of an additional player. 6. Must be approved by the releasing/receiving District Director(s) using the MH Substitute Goalie Form.

D. If a team carries only one goalie on its roster and that goalie is not available for regional or state tourna-ment play, a REPLACEMENT goalie may be chosen from a team in its league or association. Such a "replacement" goalie may be chosen from the same or a lower but not higher playing classification. 1. If a "replacement" goalie is not available from within a team’s league or association, a "spare" goalie may then be chosen from among the teams in its district; or failing the above, from its regional. 2. The “replacement” goalie shall wear the jersey of the in-season team on which they are rostered. 3. The "replacement" goalie retains eligibility with their parent team or organization at their original classifica-tion for the balance of the playing season whether or not they actually play in the tournament in question. 4. The "replacement" goalie must be properly registered on a MH team for the season in question to be eligible to participate in a regional or state tournament. Proof of registration, such as a copy of their parent team's registration roster will be required during tournament check-in. NOTE: the objective of the rule is to allow a team to obtain a back-up goalkeeper during regional and state MH play. The rule is not intended to permit teams to improve their goaltending through drafting of an additional player. 5. Must be approved by the releasing/receiving District Director(s) using the MH Substitute Goalie Form.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:25 am

I guess it really comes down to this: Did that team get a substitute goalie form completed and signed by the D10 Director? If not, they are in violation.

THEBUCKSTOPSHERE · Post by **THEBUCKSTOPSHERE** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:38 am

I understand the need for a "spare" goaltender that would play in the event a teams only rostered goalie gets injured. But for a team to upgrade their goaltending during district playoffs because their rostered goalie is on vacation just doesn't smell right.

silentbutdeadly3139 · Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:01 am

C. It is recommended that each team in the state and regional tournaments dress two goalies. If the team does not have two goalies, a SPARE goalie may be chosen from a team in its league or association, and such a "spare goalie" may be chosen from the same or a lower but not higher playing classification. 1. If a "spare" goalie is not available from within a team’s league or association, a "spare" goalie may then be chosen from among the teams in its district; or failing the above, from its regional. 2. Such a "spare" goalie may play ONLY in the case of injury to the regular goalie. 3. The “spare” goalie shall wear the light or dark jersey of the in-season team on which they are rostered. 4. The "spare" goalie retains their eligibility with their parent team or organization at their original classifica- tion for the balance of the playing season whether or not they actually play in the tournament in question. 5. The "spare" goalie must be properly registered on a MH team for the season in question to be eligible to participate in a regional or state tournament. Proof of registration, such as a copy of their parent team's registration roster will be required during tournament check-in. NOTE: the objective of the rule is to allow a team to obtain a back-up goalkeeper during regional and state MH play. The rule is not intended to permit teams to improve their goaltending through drafting of an additional player. 6. Must be approved by the releasing/receiving District Director(s) using the MH Substitute Goalie Form.

D. If a team carries only one goalie on its roster and that goalie is not available for regional or state tourna-ment play, a REPLACEMENT goalie may be chosen from a team in its league or association. Such a "replacement" goalie may be chosen from the same or a lower but not higher playing classification. 1. If a "replacement" goalie is not available from within a team’s league or association, a "spare" goalie may then be chosen from among the teams in its district; or failing the above, from its regional. 2. The “replacement” goalie shall wear the jersey of the in-season team on which they are rostered. 3. The "replacement" goalie retains eligibility with their parent team or organization at their original classifica-tion for the balance of the playing season whether or not they actually play in the tournament in question. 4. The "replacement" goalie must be properly registered on a MH team for the season in question to be eligible to participate in a regional or state tournament. Proof of registration, such as a copy of their parent team's registration roster will be required during tournament check-in. NOTE: the objective of the rule is to allow a team to obtain a back-up goalkeeper during regional and state MH play. The rule is not intended to permit teams to improve their goaltending through drafting of an additional player. 5. Must be approved by the releasing/receiving District Director(s) using the MH Substitute Goalie Form.

Isn't this a rule for regional and state tournament but the question was for district playoffs, correct ?

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:04 am

THEBUCKSTOPSHERE wrote:I understand the need for a "spare" goaltender that would play in the event a teams only rostered goalie gets injured. But for a team to upgrade their goaltending during district playoffs because their rostered goalie is on vacation just doesn't smell right.

A team can never "upgrade"...must be from a lower-level or equal classification of team. I don't know about other Districts, but D10 would NEVER consider allowing a team to use another goalie from a higher classification level. For instance, a B Pee Wee team can't use an A Pee Wee goalie. If that's what you are claiming happened, then that team should (and will) be subject to having forfeit that game.

Like I said before...the real determining factor is a signed substitute goalie form...If they don't have one, they are screwed. And if they do have one, either you are giving an inaccurate description of the events or the team misrepresented their intentions to D10. If it's the latter, they are in BIG TIME trouble.

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:59 am

silentbutdeadly3139 wrote:Isn't this a rule for regional and state tournament but the question was for district playoffs, correct ?

Correct. I quoted the MH regional/state tourney rule. I then mentioned that D6 uses this rule for their district playoffs.
Maybe D10 has the same policy as D6.

The rule says nothing about the rule being void if a goalie is on vacation. Just says if the goalie is unavailable. A goalie going on vacation should not hurt the team.

I don't know why someone would complain about a substitute goalie at the same or lower level filling in for a team with no goalie. Especially when the lack of goalie is no fault of their own.

THEBUCKSTOPSHERE · Post by **THEBUCKSTOPSHERE** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:04 pm

Muck and Spin -

1. Do either of you know the difference between a "spare" goalie, and a "replacement" goalie? MH rule states that a spare can only play in the event of an injury to the regular goalie, but doesn't specify when a replacement can play.

2. At the risk of getting this kicked over to the girls forum ... would MH consider Bantam A to be an "equal classification" to 14UA for the intent or spirit of this rule?

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:12 pm

THEBUCKSTOPSHERE wrote:Muck and Spin -

1. Do either of you know the difference between a "spare" goalie, and a "replacement" goalie? MH rule states that a spare can only play in the event of an injury to the regular goalie, but doesn't specify when a replacement can play.

2. At the risk of getting this kicked over to the girls forum ... would MH consider Bantam A to be an "equal classification" to 14UA for the intent or spirit of this rule?

A spare goalie can only play if the regular goalie is injured.

As to your second question, my guess is that they are "technically" equal classification. But if a U14a team wants to use a Bantam A goalie as their back-up, my guess is that the District would not allow it.

SWPrez · Post by **SWPrez** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:14 pm

THEBUCKSTOPSHERE wrote:Muck and Spin -

1. Do either of you know the difference between a "spare" goalie, and a "replacement" goalie? MH rule states that a spare can only play in the event of an injury to the regular goalie, but doesn't specify when a replacement can play.

2. At the risk of getting this kicked over to the girls forum ... would MH consider Bantam A to be an "equal classification" to 14UA for the intent or spirit of this rule?

Buck,

You are getting way too caught up in terms.

If a team's goalie is not there (ill, vacation, etc.) a team can have a substitute/replacement goalie provided the substitute goalie form is signed and that there is no interference with the kid's other obligations (if he didn't sit out three hours between games...that is a problem).

Spare goalie is used when a team goes to regions or state and has only one rostered goalie. They allow the team to sign a substitute goalie form and that goalie must ride the pine unless the rostered goalie is injured or cannot play. If from a different association, he must wear his association's uniform so that everyone is aware that he cannot play unless the rostered goalie can't.

Goes back to - you have a complaint if 1) it was a player playing down a level (A to B1, for example), 2) no substitute goalie form was signed, and/or 3) the goalie was playing back to back games in under the three hour rest limitation required by MN Hockey.

seek & destroy · Post by **seek & destroy** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:31 pm

muckandgrind wrote:
THEBUCKSTOPSHERE wrote:Muck and Spin -

1. Do either of you know the difference between a "spare" goalie, and a "replacement" goalie? MH rule states that a spare can only play in the event of an injury to the regular goalie, but doesn't specify when a replacement can play.

2. At the risk of getting this kicked over to the girls forum ... would MH consider Bantam A to be an "equal classification" to 14UA for the intent or spirit of this rule?
A spare goalie can only play if the regular goalie is injured.

As to your second question, my guess is that they are "technically" equal classification. But if a U14a team wants to use a Bantam A goalie as their back-up, my guess is that the District would not allow it.

It gets a little 'gray' if the Bantam A goalie was a girl but I agree with Muck that it would be rare to let a Bantam A goalie play for U14A. Typically a U14 team would draw from the U12A team.

The bigger issue (if it was the same day) is whether everyone took into account the 3 hour rule. If not, that could be an issue that would cause disqualification of the team for using a player that is not eligible.

inyourhead · Post by **inyourhead** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:42 pm

From what I an hearing d10 is allowing the bantam A goalie to play on the 14A team. That's a bunch of bs if its true. Talk about an upgrade. I'm also hearing that andover has another goalie on their roster, but she is skating out.

Intheslot · Post by **Intheslot** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:32 pm

A little bird told me the BantamA goalie is not playing for the 14UA.
So everyone take a deep breath.... the drama is over.
Shouldn't this be on the girls thread anyway

THEBUCKSTOPSHERE · Post by **THEBUCKSTOPSHERE** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:52 pm

Whether the Bantam goalie plays or not, MH needs to clarify things to avoid this situation in the future. I think everyone understands and supports the rules that allow teams to add backup goalies during their playoff run. But to let a Bantam A goalie fill in for a 14UA team just completely changes the competitiveness of that team. If anyone thinks that Bantam A and 14UA are equivalent when it comes to the intent and spirit of this rule, you're kidding yourself.

greybeard58 · Post by **greybeard58** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:52 pm

The rules are very clear and yes Bantam A and Girls 14A by the rules are considered equal in applying rules to either. Here is a statement from the rules committee and also from the Mn Hockey Handbook.
2 years ago District 10 followed District 6 in allowing a substitute Goalie or replacement goalie for District,Region or State tournament play provided the proper paperwork was filled out and all parties signed.

Youth Rules and Regulations Changes

R1. There has been continued confusion over perceived differences between rules for Youth teams and Girls teams. Two specific examples this year were, do rules for Squirts also apply to Girls 10U, and can a female Peewee "A" goalie act as a spare goalie for a Girls 12U "A" in Regional/State play. This is covered in Youth Rules Section III, Para. D, which gives equivalents between Youth and Girls teams. (Girls 12U follow rules for Peewees, Girls 10U follow rules for Squirts, etc.) It was the opinion of the Rules Committee it would help to make these equivalents front and center, rather than buried somewhere. Accordingly, it is proposed to move the present rule in Section III, Para. D to the very beginning of the Youth Rules.
BELOW from current MN Handbook
Page 23.
YOUTH RULES AND REGULATIONS
(YOUTH JUNIOR GOLD AND YOUNGER – GIRLS 19&UNDER AND YOUNGER) Includes Revisions as of June 2011 For the purposes contemplated in these rules and regulations,
Youth Midget and Youth 16 & Under divisions follow all provisions specified for the Youth Jr Gold Division.
Girls 19 & Under and Girls 16 & Under divisions follow all provisions specified for the Youth Jr Gold division,
Girls 14 & Under follow all provisions specified for the Youth Bantam division,
Girls 12 & Under division follow all provisions specified for the Youth Peewee division, Girls 10 & Under division follow all provisions specified for the Youth Squirt division and Girls 8 & Under division follow all provisions specified for the Youth Mite division.
Youth and Girls teams playing at the same competitive level (A, B, C, House) are considered to be equal competitive levels, and these like competitive playing levels shall receive equal treatment. MH strongly recommends that playing rules as written by an association and/or district league rules should reflect the written reason for any different treatment between Youth and Girls teams of similar competitive playing levels. These rules should be based on fact (not opinion) and reflect the reasons why teams are treated differently. This includes any voluntary waiver of equitable treatment by the affected team or teams.

THEBUCKSTOPSHERE · Post by **THEBUCKSTOPSHERE** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:59 pm

Boy, thanks for clearing that up Graybeard.

SuperStuds · Post by **SuperStuds** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:33 pm

Really!! You should contact your MH and USA Hockey rep to tell them how the rules should be written. If common sense was followed we would not be associated with USA or MN hockey rules!!! But rules are rules no matter how many cracks in the rules and if the rules were correct girls would not be allowed to play boys.............It's pretty apparent you are the Elk River coach bitter about possibly losing your next game to Andover after splitting the season 1-1 with the back up goalie and worried about them using their true best U14 goalie!!! Get a life!!

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:13 am

seek & destroy wrote:The bigger issue (if it was the same day) is whether everyone took into account the 3 hour rule. If not, that could be an issue that would cause disqualification of the team for using a player that is not eligible.

from MH handbook:

Team Rest - Teams shall not participate in more than two (2) on-ice activities per day, nor shall they participate in more than one tournament at a time (no overlapping days). On-ice activities include games, exhibition games and/or practices. There shall be a minimum of three (3) hours between on-ice activities on the same day and ten (10) hours between on-ice activities on consecutive days. The time is from the end of one on-ice activity to the beginning of the next.

Looks like a loophole for a dual rostered girl or a substitute goalie to individually not have to follow the rest rule.
I'm fine with this. Why make the whole team suffer when the goalie can't be there? It's not like the team paid for the goalie to go to Mexico so they could bring in the ringer.

hockeylover15 · Post by **hockeylover15** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:00 am

[quote="Intheslot"]A little bird told me the BantamA goalie is not playing for the 14UA.
So everyone take a deep breath.... the drama is over.
Shouldn't this be on the girls thread anyway

[/quote]

As of last night, the Andover Bantam A goalie was tweeting that she is in fact playing in tonight's 14UA District playoff game. I am a bit surprised that the Bantam A coach is even allowing that considering they are still in playoffs themselves. I get that goalies are probably less prone to injury than skaters, but still, is that a chance you would take with your top goalie?

This begs the question, if 14UA and Bantam A are truly "equal" according to MN and USA Hockey, does this mean that we should be having another level of playoffs pitting the 14UA teams against the Bantam A teams, the 12U teams against PeeWee teams, etc.?

I understand that a team is entitled to a replacement goalie, however, I question the precedence being set by allowing a Bantam A to crossover into 14UA as well as being dual rostered within the SAME district playoff. The Bantam A goalie tweeted, "playing for the U14's district game tomorrow.. lets see how much sh*t gets started..#itsjustonegame#getoverit" Unfortunately, this is not just ONE game, this is a game that determines seeding into the regional tournament.

An excerpt from the D10 meeting minutes:

--If you need substitute goalie forms, please contact Tim. Remember, your team goalie has to be injured or ill for a substitute goalie to be approved.

--What we do is for the children. We all have rules to follow, but the reason we ar here is for the kids. Never lose sight of that.

If only that last statement applied to ALL the kids.

SuperStuds · Post by **SuperStuds** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:26 am

Let it go COACH!

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:04 am

hockeylover15 wrote: As of last night, the Andover Bantam A goalie was tweeting that she is in fact playing in tonight's 14UA District playoff game. I am a bit surprised that the Bantam A coach is even allowing that considering they are still in playoffs themselves. I get that goalies are probably less prone to injury than skaters, but still, is that a chance you would take with your top goalie?

Sounds like it's a Andover Bantam A team decision. They'll call you if they need outside advice.

hockeylover15 wrote:This begs the question, if 14UA and Bantam A are truly "equal" according to MN and USA Hockey, does this mean that we should be having another level of playoffs pitting the 14UA teams against the Bantam A teams, the 12U teams against PeeWee teams, etc.?

Equal means equal opportunity (fair treatment). It does not mean the cellar dweller team is the same as the undefeated team. Your implication of equal would mean no play-in games, everyone gets the #1 seed and last change on a faceoff, etc. I'm sure some girls would be up to a boy/girl playoff challenge of some type. The Bobby Riggs challenge!

hockeylover15 wrote:I understand that a team is entitled to a replacement goalie, however, I question the precedence being set by allowing a Bantam A to crossover into 14UA as well as being dual rostered within the SAME district playoff. The Bantam A goalie tweeted, "playing for the U14's district game tomorrow.. lets see how much sh*t gets started..#itsjustonegame#getoverit" Unfortunately, this is not just ONE game, this is a game that determines seeding into the regional tournament.

No dual rostering going on. You need to re-read the rules on substitute goalies.

You're following a 13-14 year old girl on twitter? Really?

My complaint is with the cussing from the tweets. It's sad to see.

hockeylover15 wrote:An excerpt from the D10 meeting minutes:

--If you need substitute goalie forms, please contact Tim. Remember, your team goalie has to be injured or ill for a substitute goalie to be approved.

--What we do is for the children. We all have rules to follow, but the reason we ar here is for the kids. Never lose sight of that.

If only that last statement applied to ALL the kids.

They could forfeit. Then 2 teams would not play a game. Would that be making it about the kids? The substitue goalie rule serves all teams.

To use the quotable part from the tweet: get over it.

hockeylover15 · Post by **hockeylover15** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:16 am

Well, this has been a fun debate to follow and I am sure the game tonight will be a good one, both Andover and Elk River are strong teams regardless of who is in net. Ultimately, the girls on the ice are the ones playing the game, not us parents and coaches in this forum and I am sure they will play their hearts out tonight. The rules are what they are, the situation is what it is and no amount of complaining, debating, whining, etc. will change the fact that the players on the ice tonight will stand as it is.

Didn't mean to get you all whipped up this morning Spin O Rama, just wanted to post my opinion on the subject (at least I thought that was what this forum was for). Anyway, to answer your question...no, I don't "follow" her on Twitter - it is an open social networking site and as a responsible parent, I do lurk on the site occasionally since my kids Tweet also and we all know the games and bullying that go on with these sites.

Good luck everyone with playoffs, regions and state!