Lakeville South vs Winona? Please tell me this is false...

[Django]

Did any of you see your email from Mn Hockey today. The heading is "good sportsmanship is about character and conduct".
Inside:
Good sportsmanship includes "respect for ones opponent.
Sometimes the reasons kids succumb to unsportsmanlike behavior due to pressure from parents."
It would been great if this kid said to his coach "don't put out there coach, we are up by x goals, let the 4th line play".

[HShockeywatcher]

While I'm generally on the fence, or if I had to pick leaning away from major, on this issue, it is always interesting that those who say this is "classless" generally never bring up alternatives, draw a line, or respond to those on the opposing side who give first person accounts and opinions.

I'm not going to say his opinion is wrong, or he may not have a teammate with a similar opinion, but a player from the Winona team last year that got beat by Lakeville South 8-1. Generally talking to players they don't want the other team to stop.

Isn't this about the kids? It is usually more humiliating to the kids for the other team to stop trying, so why would we want that? Plus, as was pointed out, it can be nice for the lower lines to be on the ice with the really good player.

Then you haven't been reading all the posts on this thread. There have been MANY alternatives suggested:

1) Sit the top forwards and defensemen at the beginning of the 3rd period.
2) Run the 3rd and 4th liners out most of the time, with the 2nd line coming out every 5th shift.
3) Institute the "three pass rule" before you shoot.
4) Go with a 1-2-2 forecheck.

"Isn't this about the kids?"

Great question...the answer is YES!!! That's why you don't run up the score!!! You don't need to give up or make it obvious, but you can do things (some of which I listed above) so as to not kick the other team when they are down. They are more than likely already feeling defeated headed into the 3rd period and are just waiting for the clock to run down, is it really necessary to put another 6 up on the board with your top players still racking up points in the final minute?

Sure, some simple suggestions, that's why I said "generally never bring up alternatives..." And you didn't respond to the draw the line or respond to those on the opposing side.

Sure, we could rest them and play others more. Which isn't a terrible idea if the goal is injury prevention, which is generally not brought up.

NoExcuses brings up some good points about what has been done in the past, but where do you draw the line and when are you crossing into disrespectful? From the box score and comments, I'm guessing the score could've been at least double had LS wanted it to be. But they called off the dogs.

Why is the opinion of a player on the opposing team saying "keep playing them" not valid? It is definitely a sticky issue, but simply calling it classless is pretty extreme.

[Django]

Did any of you see your email from Mn Hockey today. The heading is "good sportsmanship is about character and conduct".
Inside:
Good sportsmanship includes "respect for ones opponent.
Sometimes the reasons kids succumb to unsportsmanlike behavior due to pressure from parents."
It would been great if this kid said to his coach "don't put out there coach, we are up by x goals, let the 4th line play".

[observer]

Now available, tourney scoring stats!

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/stats/league ... ason=66599

[Indabox]

The better players from winona usually end up in Rochester,not that it would have made a difference,and usually its just a couple of players,Winonas pathetic,and always will be!

[muckandgrind]

While I'm generally on the fence, or if I had to pick leaning away from major, on this issue, it is always interesting that those who say this is "classless" generally never bring up alternatives, draw a line, or respond to those on the opposing side who give first person accounts and opinions.

I'm not going to say his opinion is wrong, or he may not have a teammate with a similar opinion, but a player from the Winona team last year that got beat by Lakeville South 8-1. Generally talking to players they don't want the other team to stop.

Isn't this about the kids? It is usually more humiliating to the kids for the other team to stop trying, so why would we want that? Plus, as was pointed out, it can be nice for the lower lines to be on the ice with the really good player.

Then you haven't been reading all the posts on this thread. There have been MANY alternatives suggested:

1) Sit the top forwards and defensemen at the beginning of the 3rd period.
2) Run the 3rd and 4th liners out most of the time, with the 2nd line coming out every 5th shift.
3) Institute the "three pass rule" before you shoot.
4) Go with a 1-2-2 forecheck.

"Isn't this about the kids?"

Great question...the answer is YES!!! That's why you don't run up the score!!! You don't need to give up or make it obvious, but you can do things (some of which I listed above) so as to not kick the other team when they are down. They are more than likely already feeling defeated headed into the 3rd period and are just waiting for the clock to run down, is it really necessary to put another 6 up on the board with your top players still racking up points in the final minute?

Sure, some simple suggestions, that's why I said "generally never bring up alternatives..." And you didn't respond to the draw the line or respond to those on the opposing side.

Sure, we could rest them and play others more. Which isn't a terrible idea if the goal is injury prevention, which is generally not brought up.

NoExcuses brings up some good points about what has been done in the past, but where do you draw the line and when are you crossing into disrespectful? From the box score and comments, I'm guessing the score could've been at least double had LS wanted it to be. But they called off the dogs.

Why is the opinion of a player on the opposing team saying "keep playing them" not valid? It is definitely a sticky issue, but simply calling it classless is pretty extreme.

He identified himself as a "former player", not a current player on Winona...hell, MOST of us here are former players...besides, the opinion of one player shouldn't matter. The head coach should know better, plain and simple.

As far as your question about where to draw the line? That can be tough, but I would say when you think that the game is definitely out of reach for the other team.....probably a 9 or 10 goal lead would seal it for me. At that point, I take my foot off the gas pedal, start sitting guys, and look for creative ways to run the clock out without disrespecting my opponent.

[almostashappy]

Agreed.. No history of running up the score so you have to let this one slide. We may get to see if they handle things differently tomorrow as it could be another very lopsided game..

No history of running up the score?

There was a similar discussion in this forum after LS blew-out Rosemount 13-1 on Jan 26. If I recall correctly, Kloos was on the ice and scoring points late in that game as well.

Must have been an early "gratuity" to honor the kid and his senior classmates.

[RickyTicky]

[quote="almostashappy"][quote="RickyTicky"][quote="keepyourheadup"]
Agreed.. No history of running up the score so you have to let this one slide. We may get to see if they handle things differently tomorrow as it could be another very lopsided game..[/quote]

No history of running up the score?

There was a similar discussion in this forum after LS blew-out Rosemount 13-1 on Jan 26. If I recall correctly, Kloos was on the ice and scoring points late in that game as well.

Must have been an early "gratuity" to honor the kid and his senior classmates. [/quote]


Oh, did you mean his 1 assist to a 4th line kid's goal in the 3rd period of that game.. Where was this griping of yours when Besse racks up 6-7 pts in there multiple 10+ goal blowouts this year? Or any other blow out where a top player gets a meaningless assist later in the game.. Let it go bro!

[Sats81]

Neal, Aaron Broten and Butsy Erickson were sent to the showers plenty of times to watch from the stands in blow out games.

I know for a fact they weren't, so please don't make things up!

I
http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... ferrer_id=

Hey Mule-I know you may think you know everything but please read the ENTIRE link I posted above and YOU, my friend PLEASE stop making things up!

Still waiting for my boy mule farm to respond to this one. Mule-u know as a fact this wasn't true hah? Funny how when someone puts you in your place with the article to back it up you are nowhere to be found chirping like you usually do. Still trying to figure out a good BS response? Oh wait, you know as a FACT this wasn't true! I forgot!

[RickyTicky]

BSM was up 10-0 on St. Cloud Tech going into the 3rd.. Besse- goal and assist in 3rd, Horn- Goal, and assist in the 3rd

BSM up 11-1 on HA going into the 3rd.. Besse and Horn get assists in 3rd

BSM up 10-0 on SLP going into the 3rd.. Besse 2 goals, Horn goal and assist in the 3rd

BSM up 16-0!! on Copper going into the 3rd.. Horn with a goal and assist in the 3rd


-This is just one team I looked up and their top guys were scoring GOALS in the 3rd period of blow out games, not just setting up teammates.. where was the up-roar then? and why the double standard now?

[Sats81]

BSM was up 10-0 on St. Cloud Tech going into the 3rd.. Besse- goal and assist in 3rd, Horn- Goal, and assist in the 3rd

BSM up 11-1 on HA going into the 3rd.. Besse and Horn get assists in 3rd

BSM up 10-0 on SLP going into the 3rd.. Besse 2 goals, Horn goal and assist in the 3rd

BSM up 16-0!! on Copper going into the 3rd.. Horn with a goal and assist in the 3rd


-This is just one team I looked up and their top guys were scoring GOALS in the 3rd period of blow out games, not just setting up teammates.. where was the up-roar then? and why the double standard now?

I think most people who know anything about hockey in MN will agree Pauly is not a good coach (great recruiter don't get me wrong here), but it's common practice for BSM to play subpar competition, crank up the score and still have top players on the ice putting up points. Sooooo, comparing weber and LS to Pauly and BSM (who thankfully tonka should pound in 6aa) doesn't get you very far.

[Sats81]

BSM was up 10-0 on St. Cloud Tech going into the 3rd.. Besse- goal and assist in 3rd, Horn- Goal, and assist in the 3rd

BSM up 11-1 on HA going into the 3rd.. Besse and Horn get assists in 3rd

BSM up 10-0 on SLP going into the 3rd.. Besse 2 goals, Horn goal and assist in the 3rd

BSM up 16-0!! on Copper going into the 3rd.. Horn with a goal and assist in the 3rd


-This is just one team I looked up and their top guys were scoring GOALS in the 3rd period of blow out games, not just setting up teammates.. where was the up-roar then? and why the double standard now?

Not to mention, there are a lot of people on here who complain about BSM games and keeping top talent out at end of blowout games.

[mulefarm]

I know for a fact they weren't, so please don't make things up!

I
http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... ferrer_id=

Hey Mule-I know you may think you know everything but please read the ENTIRE link I posted above and YOU, my friend PLEASE stop making things up!

Still waiting for my boy mule farm to respond to this one. Mule-u know as a fact this wasn't true hah? Funny how when someone puts you in your place with the article to back it up you are nowhere to be found chirping like you usually do. Still trying to figure out a good BS response? Oh wait, you know as a FACT this wasn't true! I forgot!

Now let me see, that line scored 300 pts that season in a 20 game schedule with 15 min periods. Doesn't sound like they missed to many periods to me. Next time I see Hokie or TA I will ask them about it, and I'll get back to you.

[Sats81]

I
http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... ferrer_id=

Hey Mule-I know you may think you know everything but please read the ENTIRE link I posted above and YOU, my friend PLEASE stop making things up!

Still waiting for my boy mule farm to respond to this one. Mule-u know as a fact this wasn't true hah? Funny how when someone puts you in your place with the article to back it up you are nowhere to be found chirping like you usually do. Still trying to figure out a good BS response? Oh wait, you know as a FACT this wasn't true! I forgot!

Now let me see, that line scored 300 pts that season in a 20 game schedule with 15 min periods. Doesn't sound like they missed to many periods to me. Next time I see Hokie or TA I will ask them about it, and I'll get back to you.

Lol. Nothing like name dropping. Last time I read your response I believe it said: "I know as a FACT". Not so sure now hah mule? Last time I checked all 3 of them did have long, successful careers in the show, so even with limited games, time of periods, AND sitting out and WATCHING the end of blowout games from the STANDS, I think it's very realistic they put up these numbers with their caliber of play. Good try though with the condescending response.

[RickyTicky]

Fair enough.. but my point being when this has happened in the past (and other teams besides BSM have done this too this season) there hasn't been a 5 page thread of comments from people who evidently are experts in morality.. Honestly, doesn't matter how bad I'm getting beat.. don't pitty me or give up just so I feel better about the end score, thats an insult to me. I feel like any competitive person feels the same way.

[Sats81]

Fair enough.. but my point being when this has happened in the past (and other teams besides BSM have done this too this season) there hasn't been a 5 page thread of comments from people who evidently are experts in morality.. Honestly, doesn't matter how bad I'm getting beat.. don't pitty me or give up just so I feel better about the end score, thats an insult to me. I feel like any competitive person feels the same way.

Yeah. An argument could be made either way about LS game last night. I don't think anyone "wins" in these types of situations.

[RickyTicky]

[quote="Sats81"][quote="RickyTicky"]Fair enough.. but my point being when this has happened in the past (and other teams besides BSM have done this too this season) there hasn't been a 5 page thread of comments from people who evidently are experts in morality.. Honestly, doesn't matter how bad I'm getting beat.. don't pitty me or give up just so I feel better about the end score, thats an insult to me. I feel like any competitive person feels the same way.[/quote]

Yeah. An argument could be made either way about LS game last night. I don't think anyone "wins" in these types of situations.[/quote]

Definitely not, it's really too bad these games have to be played..

[HShockeywatcher]

Then you haven't been reading all the posts on this thread. There have been MANY alternatives suggested:

1) Sit the top forwards and defensemen at the beginning of the 3rd period.
2) Run the 3rd and 4th liners out most of the time, with the 2nd line coming out every 5th shift.
3) Institute the "three pass rule" before you shoot.
4) Go with a 1-2-2 forecheck.
Great question...the answer is YES!!! That's why you don't run up the score!!! You don't need to give up or make it obvious, but you can do things (some of which I listed above) so as to not kick the other team when they are down. They are more than likely already feeling defeated headed into the 3rd period and are just waiting for the clock to run down, is it really necessary to put another 6 up on the board with your top players still racking up points in the final minute?

Sure, some simple suggestions, that's why I said "generally never bring up alternatives..." And you didn't respond to the draw the line or respond to those on the opposing side.

Sure, we could rest them and play others more. Which isn't a terrible idea if the goal is injury prevention, which is generally not brought up.

NoExcuses brings up some good points about what has been done in the past, but where do you draw the line and when are you crossing into disrespectful? From the box score and comments, I'm guessing the score could've been at least double had LS wanted it to be. But they called off the dogs.

Why is the opinion of a player on the opposing team saying "keep playing them" not valid? It is definitely a sticky issue, but simply calling it classless is pretty extreme.

He identified himself as a "former player", not a current player on Winona...hell, MOST of us here are former players...besides, the opinion of one player shouldn't matter. The head coach should know better, plain and simple.

As far as your question about where to draw the line? That can be tough, but I would say when you think that the game is definitely out of reach for the other team.....probably a 9 or 10 goal lead would seal it for me. At that point, I take my foot off the gas pedal, start sitting guys, and look for creative ways to run the clock out without disrespecting my opponent.

Actually a "former player" who "played in the game last year against south." It's not the opinion of one, it's the opinion of many. It's actually the only opinion I've read on here from the perspective of players.

None have come on here and said, "this happened to me, I felt great about them pulling their good players and having their bad ones skate circles around us." None. All say the players should keep playing.

So when is the game "out of reach"? I'm guessing most on the ice knew it was after a goal or two. So, they score two goals, then play keep away for 45 minutes? That's more of a mockery of the game itself.

[goldy313]

Definitely not, it's really too bad these games have to be played..

I don't think it's too bad these games have to be played I just wish the results didn't end up so lopsided. Telling kids who almost never score not to score isn't fair to them, they work hard all year as well.

2 years ago #1 Lakeville South was trailing #9 Dodge County 2-1 entering the third period. Just last night Armstrong beat Eden Prairie, no matter what I don't think you want to take the games away from the kids. Sure, blowouts will happen more than the upsets but kids play for fun and that one chance.

When I officiated I had a 1 vs 8 game that was 12-0 after the second period and the coach continued playing his lines 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3......through the third period. We started putting kids in the box for mouthguard violations, for slashing, for what ever was even close to penalty, then we would take as much time as we could before dropping the puck.

The NFHS would be wise to change the running time rule to include a 10 goal lead whenever that happens instead of waiting until the third period.

[RangeHockeyFan1817]

Sure, some simple suggestions, that's why I said "generally never bring up alternatives..." And you didn't respond to the draw the line or respond to those on the opposing side.

Sure, we could rest them and play others more. Which isn't a terrible idea if the goal is injury prevention, which is generally not brought up.

NoExcuses brings up some good points about what has been done in the past, but where do you draw the line and when are you crossing into disrespectful? From the box score and comments, I'm guessing the score could've been at least double had LS wanted it to be. But they called off the dogs.

Why is the opinion of a player on the opposing team saying "keep playing them" not valid? It is definitely a sticky issue, but simply calling it classless is pretty extreme.

He identified himself as a "former player", not a current player on Winona...hell, MOST of us here are former players...besides, the opinion of one player shouldn't matter. The head coach should know better, plain and simple.

As far as your question about where to draw the line? That can be tough, but I would say when you think that the game is definitely out of reach for the other team.....probably a 9 or 10 goal lead would seal it for me. At that point, I take my foot off the gas pedal, start sitting guys, and look for creative ways to run the clock out without disrespecting my opponent.

Actually a "former player" who "played in the game last year against south." It's not the opinion of one, it's the opinion of many. It's actually the only opinion I've read on here from the perspective of players.

None have come on here and said, "this happened to me, I felt great about them pulling their good players and having their bad ones skate circles around us." None. All say the players should keep playing.

So when is the game "out of reach"? I'm guessing most on the ice knew it was after a goal or two. So, they score two goals, then play keep away for 45 minutes? That's more of a mockery of the game itself.

I agree with HSHW here- I have read MANY threads on this topic, and they all have one thing in common, when someone who was on the losing end of one of these games comments, they always say, "don't stop playing". But nobody seems to care what the people actually involved in these games think....they just think they're rants are more important and they are "right". I agree with not scoring at will and working on making plays and DEFINITELY giving 3rd and 4th lines most of the playing time, especially in the third, however I will NEVER agree with playing down to an opponent by playing keep away or something similar. Talk about embarrassing!

[almostashappy]

Definitely not, it's really too bad these games have to be played..

I don't think it's too bad these games have to be played I just wish the results didn't end up so lopsided. Telling kids who almost never score not to score isn't fair to them, they work hard all year as well.

2 years ago #1 Lakeville South was trailing #9 Dodge County 2-1 entering the third period. Just last night Armstrong beat Eden Prairie, no matter what I don't think you want to take the games away from the kids. Sure, blowouts will happen more than the upsets but kids play for fun and that one chance.

When I officiated I had a 1 vs 8 game that was 12-0 after the second period and the coach continued playing his lines 1-2-1-3-1-2-1-3......through the third period. We started putting kids in the box for mouthguard violations, for slashing, for what ever was even close to penalty, then we would take as much time as we could before dropping the puck.

The NFHS would be wise to change the running time rule to include a 10 goal lead whenever that happens instead of waiting until the third period.

I don't begrudge any goal scored by a 4th-liner in the 3rd period of a lopsided game. Somebody has to be out on the ice, and better it be kids who rarely get in otherwise. But this thread wasn't started because a 4th liner scored a point at the end of the game, is it?

Love the idea of a modified slaughter rule (running time at 10 goal differential regardless of period). And I really love your approach to refereeing that lopsided game. During running time in the Eagan - Rosemount game last night there was some really, really deliberate puck dropping and ultra-casual line changes. Of course those same refs were a little too casual for my taste when it came to clamping down on a bit of "senior shifting" but you can't always get what you want, right?

[muckandgrind]

BSM was up 10-0 on St. Cloud Tech going into the 3rd.. Besse- goal and assist in 3rd, Horn- Goal, and assist in the 3rd

BSM up 11-1 on HA going into the 3rd.. Besse and Horn get assists in 3rd

BSM up 10-0 on SLP going into the 3rd.. Besse 2 goals, Horn goal and assist in the 3rd

BSM up 16-0!! on Copper going into the 3rd.. Horn with a goal and assist in the 3rd


-This is just one team I looked up and their top guys were scoring GOALS in the 3rd period of blow out games, not just setting up teammates.. where was the up-roar then? and why the double standard now?

I don't think you'll find anyone here defending BSM running up the score. ...especially me. I think they have been more guilty of this type of thing than anyone else.

Still doesn't excuse what LS did to Winona.

I agree with HSHW here- I have read MANY threads on this topic, and they all have one thing in common, when someone who was on the losing end of one of these games comments, they always say, "don't stop playing". But nobody seems to care what the people actually involved in these games think....they just think they're rants are more important and they are "right". I agree with not scoring at will and working on making plays and DEFINITELY giving 3rd and 4th lines most of the playing time, especially in the third, however I will NEVER agree with playing down to an opponent by playing keep away or something similar. Talk about embarrassing!

Of course people care about what the kids think....still doesn't let LS off the hook for running up the score.

What's "embarrassing" is that some around here have forgotten what being a good sport is all about. Being a good sport means not running up the score against an opponent that has already been defeated. There are grey areas, sure...but putting your top players on the ice with a minute to go in an 18-0 game so they can get that extra assist shows that the coaching staff of LS doesn't understand the concept of being a good sport.

[RangeHockeyFan1817]

What's "embarrassing" is that some around here have forgotten what being a good sport is all about. Being a good sport means not running up the score against an opponent that has already been defeated. There are grey areas, sure...but putting your top players on the ice with a minute to go in an 18-0 game so they can get that extra assist shows that the coaching staff of LS doesn't understand the concept of being a good sport.


If you read my whole post, i agree with most of what you said....play 3rd and 4th liners most of the time but if they're still scoring there's not much else they can do. And I get that this is not why the post was started, it was about a 1st liner scoring or assisting late in the game and no I don't agree with that. But it has gotten off topic to the general complaining of "running up the score". To me running up the score would be scoring at every opportunity and not making the changes like putting in your 3rd and 4th line. But I definitely don't think that just because there is a score like this that it was "classless" as many have said. You can still be respectful of another team even if you're scoring goals. In a virginia vs. silver bay playoff game last year the score was I think 18-0. The kids were shooting straight at the goalies pads and some still managed to go in. Not one kid on the silver bay team was upset and they wished the devils luck the rest of the way. they know before hand this will most likely be the result. But it is always the parents who seem to be upset about this sort of thing, not the players or coaches of the teams involved was my point. I'm sorry but "being a good sport" to me will NEVER mean taking pity or feeling sorry for my opponents because they are not as good. Being a good sport means playing by the rules and showing your opponents respect, that doesn't mean playing down to them. It is just as condescending as it sounds.

[mn miracle man]

This is not the first or last time we'll see this...see BSM results...but it seems the LS coach messed up. There have been several arguements defending South's use of its top players late in this game but I find none of them compelling enough to to justify it. They backed off several teams during the year when they could have put up a big number so I don't understand why last night was any different. Its unfortunate that this game had to be played but there just has to be a better way to handle it.

Well the way I look at it, Ammerman, Winona's Rookie Coach, was on that Moorhead team that beat Monticello like 27-0 back in 2004 and maybe Lakeville was paying back a favor? Karmas a b**** apparently....

Might want to check again who Jon Ammerman coaches for...

Windom, Winona, all the same southern hockey "powerhouses," my bad...

[SEMNHOCKEYFAN]

"They ran (the score) up on us,” Winona coach Fran McDevitt said in the winona daily news


Read more: http://winonadailynews.com/sports/artic ... z1nM67FGPs