Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

[thestickler07]

What is plain to see is that the more we push your buttons the more you jump up and down and fuss.

Everyone on this board knows people move to areas where there is a hockey tradition to give their children a better oppertunity. For you to act as though that does not happen in your perfect little town is a joke. You even state that the Denfeld players go to East!!! I have no proof nor do I need any. They may move in when the kids are younger or older or transfer when the are younger or older but it happens everywhere there is tradition. Towns big and small. You dont think that gives your school and unfair advantage.
Maybe Hermantown should opt up as well. Just like the other schools mentioned. We hear on here all the time they can play with the big boys. They got the best D in the State 3 of them all better then all the 6 boys with D1 commitments and Mr. Hockey nominations.

Also what is plain to see Rainier is that you are setting up your reason to blame someone else if your team should lose yet again this year.

Hows my punctuation? I know my spelling sucks.

Oh snap.

[thestickler07]

Then why not condense them in sectionals?

Baby steps. Baby steps.

[MHGr8ness]

Rainier we have heard your AA talent pool comment several times. We get it. What the thread is also about is the denial that the schools like Hermantown with a winning program don't bring kids into their program through that tradition. Intended or not. Because a kid moves in from Proctor or Denfield, or other surrounding areas or simply open enrolls early in their development then it does not qualify for your AA size talent pool. Give it a rest. Hermantown and other programs like EAST, Moorehead, Roseau draw kids from a longer distance than would be covered by a AAA school. They have tradition and people what their kids to play with the best and be on the best teams. Why are Denfeild, Central, and Proctor so bad all the time? Explain that.

The reason I mention it several times is that I think it's all that needs to be said. Unless you have proof Hermantown is bringing in significant numbers of players from outside their district, don't even bring it up, it is baseless. Oh, and the other 3 teams you claim bring in other kids, news flash, they are ALREADY in AA.

Central no longer exists, Denfeld is bad because their players go to East (AA school) and Marshall (should be AA). Proctor had a pretty decent team last year and has made it to state in A in the past, but they are just not as passionate of a hockey community.

The MSHSL split into two classes so that teams with smaller talent pools to select from would have a tournament, and what some of these private schools are doing is making a mockery of this.

It's plain to see and you can try to deflect the conversation with extraneous side arguments all you want, but the truth is that these schools have access to WAY more kids than the public A schools.

The fact that other private schools have opted up with great success makes schools like STA and Breck look terrible.

What is plain to see is that the more we push your buttons the more you jump up and down and fuss.

Everyone on this board knows people move to areas where there is a hockey tradition to give their children a better oppertunity. For you to act as though that does not happen in your perfect little town is a joke. You even state that the Denfeld players go to East!!! I have no proof nor do I need any. They may move in when the kids are younger or older or transfer when the are younger or older but it happens everywhere there is tradition. Towns big and small. You dont think that gives your school and unfair advantage.
Maybe Hermantown should opt up as well. Just like the other schools mentioned. We hear on here all the time they can play with the big boys. They got the best D in the State 3 of them all better then all the 6 boys with D1 commitments and Mr. Hockey nominations.

Also what is plain to see Rainier is that you are setting up your reason to blame someone else if your team should lose yet again this year.

Hows my punctuation? I know my spelling sucks.

I think you need proof. You can't just make claims like that. Also, when did refuting points and having a solid argument become jumping up and down? He seems to stay reasonable and on topic. You keep jumping back to "his team" and other things that may anger him. A common tactic by someone who is losing...By the way, I think Rainier is a Hibbing guy?

[PuckRanger]

Also what is plain to see Rainier is that you are setting up your reason to blame someone else if your team should lose yet again this year.

Pssst.... Umm, rainer's team is not in the state tournament...

I agree with rainer's original post 100%. To all the crazy talk of public class A schools that are winning based on open enrollment/transfers (whatever you want to call it), I make these two points:

#1:
Kids that were born and raised and played hockey for the town of Hermantown (or any other CLASS A school for that matter): >75% of the team;
Kids that were born and raised and played hockey for the town... err... school of St. Thomas Academy (or Breck, Totino... whoever): 0% of the team.
To spell that out for some of you, this means the ENTIRE varsity team and junior varsity team is compromised of imports for ALL private schools. The CLASS A public schools may gain a player of two on occasion. (The reality actually is that most of them actually lose players to AA schools or private schools.)

#2:
Its unreal how the kids are really flocking in droves to the public class A schools via open enrollment. Wow, the likes of hockey rich towns such as Hibbing, International Falls, Greenway, Eveleth, Virginia, Red Wing, East Grand Forks, and Little Falls are just exploding with all that imported talent!

Seriously though, there is a lot of history and tradition with some of the programs listed above. Some have had recent success, some have not. Where are all the transfers into these schools?


My overall point being, these smaller towns try like hell to put together good hockey programs and develop players to be competitive as possible in high school with VERY limited resources and budgets -- only to have it all stripped away by having to play hand-picked teams with unlimited resources and way more financial advantages in the "small school" class.

Private A schools are A schools by enrollment only, but have AA public school resources... Therefor, they should be playing with AA schools.

I would not be opposed to allowing some of the lesser known private schools petition back down to class A with approval from at least two thirds of the class A coaches should those schools choose not to utilize or pursue those extra resources.

[14hockey]

Also what is plain to see Rainier is that you are setting up your reason to blame someone else if your team should lose yet again this year.

Pssst.... Umm, rainer's team is not in the state tournament...

I agree with rainer's original post 100%. To all the crazy talk of public class A schools that are winning based on open enrollment/transfers (whatever you want to call it), I make these two points:

#1:
Kids that were born and raised and played hockey for the town of Hermantown (or any other CLASS A school for that matter): >75% of the team;
Kids that were born and raised and played hockey for the town... err... school of St. Thomas Academy (or Breck, Totino... whoever): 0% of the team.
To spell that out for some of you, this means the ENTIRE varsity team and junior varsity team is compromised of imports for ALL private schools. The CLASS A public schools may gain a player of two on occasion. (The reality actually is that most of them actually lose players to AA schools or private schools.)

#2:
Its unreal how the kids are really flocking in droves to the public class A schools via open enrollment. Wow, the likes of hockey rich towns such as Hibbing, International Falls, Greenway, Eveleth, Virginia, Red Wing, East Grand Forks, and Little Falls are just exploding with all that imported talent!

Seriously though, there is a lot of history and tradition with some of the programs listed above. Some have had recent success, some have not. Where are all the transfers into these schools?


My overall point being, these smaller towns try like hell to put together good hockey programs and develop players to be competitive as possible in high school with VERY limited resources and budgets -- only to have it all stripped away by having to play hand-picked teams with unlimited resources and way more financial advantages in the "small school" class.

Private A schools are A schools by enrollment only, but have AA public school resources... Therefor, they should be playing with AA schools.

I would not be opposed to allowing some of the lesser known private schools petition back down to class A with approval from at least two thirds of the class A coaches should those schools choose not to utilize or pursue those extra resources.

I must say well said PuckRanger. Unfortunately I do think ranier is quite upset but I must agree. Private schools have resources that are unlimited when it comes to building their hockey programs. IMO i would like to see no transfers be acceptable, but thats a whole other thread. What if we kept A and AA and had the winners of each section play the corresponding AA winner. Then have one 8 team tournament to decide the champion. Tournament bid games would have gone something like this:

Section 1: Lakeville South v Lourdes
Section 2: Breck v Edina
Section 3:Eagen v New Ulm
Section 4: STA v Hill Murray
Section 5: Maple Grove v Hermantown
Section 6: Little Falls v Minnetonka
Section 7: East v Marshall
Section 8: Moorhead v TRF

In my opinion these are some games I would love to see... And the final winner would have the chance to be A or AA. Truly the absolute best high school hockey team in the state.

[artifactually153]

Also what is plain to see Rainier is that you are setting up your reason to blame someone else if your team should lose yet again this year.

Pssst.... Umm, rainer's team is not in the state tournament...

I agree with rainer's original post 100%. To all the crazy talk of public class A schools that are winning based on open enrollment/transfers (whatever you want to call it), I make these two points:

#1:
Kids that were born and raised and played hockey for the town of Hermantown (or any other CLASS A school for that matter): >75% of the team;
Kids that were born and raised and played hockey for the town... err... school of St. Thomas Academy (or Breck, Totino... whoever): 0% of the team.
To spell that out for some of you, this means the ENTIRE varsity team and junior varsity team is compromised of imports for ALL private schools. The CLASS A public schools may gain a player of two on occasion. (The reality actually is that most of them actually lose players to AA schools or private schools.)

#2:
Its unreal how the kids are really flocking in droves to the public class A schools via open enrollment. Wow, the likes of hockey rich towns such as Hibbing, International Falls, Greenway, Eveleth, Virginia, Red Wing, East Grand Forks, and Little Falls are just exploding with all that imported talent!

Seriously though, there is a lot of history and tradition with some of the programs listed above. Some have had recent success, some have not. Where are all the transfers into these schools?


My overall point being, these smaller towns try like hell to put together good hockey programs and develop players to be competitive as possible in high school with VERY limited resources and budgets -- only to have it all stripped away by having to play hand-picked teams with unlimited resources and way more financial advantages in the "small school" class.

Private A schools are A schools by enrollment only, but have AA public school resources... Therefor, they should be playing with AA schools.

I would not be opposed to allowing some of the lesser known private schools petition back down to class A with approval from at least two thirds of the class A coaches should those schools choose not to utilize or pursue those extra resources.

I must say well said PuckRanger. Unfortunately I do think ranier is quite upset but I must agree. Private schools have resources that are unlimited when it comes to building their hockey programs. IMO i would like to see no transfers be acceptable, but thats a whole other thread. What if we kept A and AA and had the winners of each section play the corresponding AA winner. Then have one 8 team tournament to decide the champion. Tournament bid games would have gone something like this:

Section 1: Lakeville South v Lourdes
Section 2: Breck v Edina
Section 3:Eagen v New Ulm
Section 4: STA v Hill Murray
Section 5: Maple Grove v Hermantown
Section 6: Little Falls v Minnetonka
Section 7: East v Marshall
Section 8: Moorhead v TRF

In my opinion these are some games I would love to see... And the final winner would have the chance to be A or AA. Truly the absolute best high school hockey team in the state.

I agree that rainman is going nuts. (go Hibbing!) but what you are suggesting has pretty much already been refuted by other members of the board and you also keep repeating. Name one of those A teams that would be able to win it. Very big maybe to hermantown but unlikely. In fact I don't know if any of them would make the semis.

[Teak]

I know that with 42 posters on this topic that we're going to get 45 opinions, but let me add one more with an idea.

It would be a simple thing, really, for the State MHSL to make a rule whereby a school that wins the State A tournament, oh say 2 or 3 times in a 5-year period (or something like that) is automatically promoted. This is what European futbol leagues do, they have promotion and relegation. After promotion, if that A team goes on and finishes last in their AA section for 2-3 years, out of 5, then let them go back down to A.

Thus, promotion (and relegation) would be based upon actual competitiveness. St. Thomas Academy and Breck are very competitive, for various reasons, so promote them up to AA as a reward! It doesn't have to be seen as a bad thing for the Cadets or Mustangs.

What is happening now is like an adult whipping up on the grade school kids at hop-scotch simply because he doesn't want to go up to the next competitive level.

[Just Checking]

Also what is plain to see Rainier is that you are setting up your reason to blame someone else if your team should lose yet again this year.

Pssst.... Umm, rainer's team is not in the state tournament...

I am CERTAIN rainiers team is in the Tourney. If you had not noticed yet it is the team playing against Breck or STA Thats all this is about

[HShockeywatcher]

The MSHSL split into two classes so that teams with smaller talent pools to select from would have a tournament, and what some of these private schools are doing is making a mockery of this.

How so? They are providing a place for students to attend when, in their opinion, their money isn't being well spent at their local school.

#1:
Kids that were born and raised and played hockey for the town of Hermantown (or any other CLASS A school for that matter): >75% of the team;
Kids that were born and raised and played hockey for the town... err... school of St. Thomas Academy (or Breck, Totino... whoever): 0% of the team.
To spell that out for some of you, this means the ENTIRE varsity team and junior varsity team is compromised of imports for ALL private schools. The CLASS A public schools may gain a player of two on occasion. (The reality actually is that most of them actually lose players to AA schools or private schools.)

My overall point being, these smaller towns try like hell to put together good hockey programs and develop players to be competitive as possible in high school with VERY limited resources and budgets -- only to have it all stripped away by having to play hand-picked teams with unlimited resources and way more financial advantages in the "small school" class.

Private A schools are A schools by enrollment only, but have AA public school resources... Therefor, they should be playing with AA schools

Students at Blake/Breck don't live in Mpls and students at St Thomas don't live in Mendota Heights? Well, you're off to a great start
Don't be naive and blame the other guy. They aren't losing anything. Students are leaving for a "better" opportunity, in their eyes.

What "unlimited resources" and "way more financial advantages" do you speak of? I guess surviving because of donations is somehow an advantage

So now we base what class schools are in for specific sports on their "school resources"? You are really reachin' here.

What is happening now is like an adult whipping up on the grade school kids at hop-scotch simply because he doesn't want to go up to the next competitive level.

What is happening now is we have what we call a class system that really isn't. What you propose would be fine, the top 64 teams in AA and the rest in A. A tier system, fine, let's do it.

But that isn't really what people want; they want a class system with the best small schools to opt up because "hockey's different" and for some reason only in MN size has anything to do with ability.

[Zamman]

So Basically your saying the AA field will change yearly by saying the Top 64 play AA and the rest play a. After that how do you set up the field of 64 for tournament play. What if 20 of the top 64 are all within the same area...

[HShockeywatcher]

So Basically your saying the AA field will change yearly by saying the Top 64 play AA and the rest play a. After that how do you set up the field of 64 for tournament play. What if 20 of the top 64 are all within the same area...

I can't speak to how it would be done; I think it's a terrible idea. No where else in the country, that I know of, uses a tier system or has the mentality that a higher class based on enrollment equates to more talent. It doesn't even exist in MN in other sports.

How soccer and tennis organizations around the world do it is that if you win/lose your division, you move up or down. It is assumed that, in general, the teams in a higher division are better. That's what a tiered system is.
What I would guess would be the best solution would be taking the top 8 at the end of the season and having them top seeds (like the NCAA) and making sections based on that.

But at the end of the day, "hockey's different" and the logic used everywhere else gets thrown out the window to make a point so there can be something to complain about.

Would I like to see my alma mater, as well as a few select current Class A schools in Class AA? Yes.
Is that the ultimate answer and what I believe is best overall for MN High School Hockey? No.

[DubCHAGuy]

So Basically your saying the AA field will change yearly by saying the Top 64 play AA and the rest play a. After that how do you set up the field of 64 for tournament play. What if 20 of the top 64 are all within the same area...

I can't speak to how it would be done; I think it's a terrible idea. No where else in the country, that I know of, uses a tier system or has the mentality that a higher class based on enrollment equates to more talent. It doesn't even exist in MN in other sports.

Huh? That is actually pretty well accepted mentality in most MN sports as well as in the 49 other states, at least the large team sports. Hockey being "different" throws out that "logic used everywhere else" because many of the small northern towns and city privates with smaller enrollments can compete with the big schools.

[HShockeywatcher]

So Basically your saying the AA field will change yearly by saying the Top 64 play AA and the rest play a. After that how do you set up the field of 64 for tournament play. What if 20 of the top 64 are all within the same area...

I can't speak to how it would be done; I think it's a terrible idea. No where else in the country, that I know of, uses a tier system or has the mentality that a higher class based on enrollment equates to more talent. It doesn't even exist in MN in other sports.

Huh? That is actually pretty well accepted mentality in most MN sports as well as in the 49 other states, at least the large team sports. Hockey being "different" throws out that "logic used everywhere else" because many of the small northern towns and city privates with smaller enrollments can compete with the big schools.

By "more talent" I didn't mean more talented players, I meant "a better team." Sorry if that was confusing.

And no, it's not. Generally, by sheer numbers the teams in the bottom class or two can't compete with the top class, but there are teams all around the country that are not in the top class and considered a top team in the country.

08-09 the best basketball team in the country was a 4A team from Texas (a state with 5 classes). Never once did I ever read anything about them or hear any comments in their televised games about them being in the "lower class."

Same thing happened with Braham basketball a few years before that and happens often around the state and country that top teams aren't in the top class. It's because they are class systems determined solely by class.

[DubCHAGuy]

I can't speak to how it would be done; I think it's a terrible idea. No where else in the country, that I know of, uses a tier system or has the mentality that a higher class based on enrollment equates to more talent. It doesn't even exist in MN in other sports.

Huh? That is actually pretty well accepted mentality in most MN sports as well as in the 49 other states, at least the large team sports. Hockey being "different" throws out that "logic used everywhere else" because many of the small northern towns and city privates with smaller enrollments can compete with the big schools.

By "more talent" I didn't mean more talented players, I meant "a better team." Sorry if that was confusing.

And no, it's not. Generally, by sheer numbers the teams in the bottom class or two can't compete with the top class, but there are teams all around the country that are not in the top class and considered a top team in the country.

08-09 the best basketball team in the country was a 4A team from Texas (a state with 5 classes). Never once did I ever read anything about them or hear any comments in their televised games about them being in the "lower class."

Same thing happened with Braham basketball a few years before that and happens often around the state and country that top teams aren't in the top class. It's because they are class systems determined solely by class.

Of course there are exceptions (2005 Warroad comes to mind), but 90+% of the time the top team from the highest class is much better than the top team in the next lower class. For example in football Eden Prairie is surely a better team than Rocori, who is better than St. Croix Lutheran, and so on. And the gap grows larger towards the middle of the classes. #25 in AAAA of whatever the team sport, is probably much better than #25 in AAA. It's like that in every state, with exceptions, like you pointed out.

I will say I am with you on the idea that people are really reaching for reasons to hate private schools and the current format. In hockey, "resources" could be having 3 rinks in a town of 2,000 people like Warroad and Roseau. Besides, a good majority of the best class A state tournament games over the last decade have had at least one private school playing. 02 TG vs. Fergus, 04 SSP vs. Breck, 05 TG vs. Warroad, 06&07 STA vs. DM, 11 TRF vs. Breck, 11 STA vs. Hermantown. Why people want to change that is beyond me.

[defense]

AA and A are based off of enrollment, not ability

And....?????? Your point?????

That the only ones you can debate should be moved up would be the private prep schools. Read please.

No, I can debate that many others should move up. Maybe i skrewed that part up. They shouldn't be forced up, but should move up on their own.

[rainier]

If trying to stick to the main point of the thread by making reasoned, focused arguments is going nuts, then yes, I am flying over the cuckoo's nest for sure.

A couple of points:
1. I am a Hibbing fan, not a Hermantown fan. Hermantown is the epitome of what Class A hockey is about, and I admire them greatly for it.

2. I am not addressing any one class tournament or super section arguments because they are futile. The two class split is irreversible; the MSHSL is NOT going to give up the extra money it brings in. Putting private schools in AA could very well happen though, as every year the private dominance continues, the voices of opposition get louder.

3. HSHW, you keep bringing up that the public schools should do more to draw kids in and that private schools are "providing a place for students to attend when, in their opinion, their money isn't being well spent at their local school. " Fine, I see what you are saying, private schools do offer great facilities, teachers, curriculum, etc. but this is totally irrelevant to the fact that they still have AA sized talent pools. Other STA and Breck fans acknowledge that this is indeed a fact, so should you. It doesn't matter why kids go to private schools, what matters is that when they get their talent from a huge area, they are a AA school, period.

4. To those who say the public class A schools are whining because they are losing, you are right, but only half right. We are whining because our A teams are losing to AA schools. 1% of class A fans complain when a Warroad or Hermantown win; 99% of A fans complain when STA or Breck win. The AA equivalent to this is if SSM were allowed to play in HS. They would win tons of titles and dominate, and boy, would you hear the whining then. But you know what? That whining would be totally justified, just as it is for teams like STA and Breck sandbagging in A.

5. Who is really going nuts are the private school alums on this message board who can't stand the fact that their titles are tainted and not respected by anyone other than their fellow classmates. They want the recognition and glory that comes with winning state titles, but they never get it because anyone can see what a farce it is that they are in class A. That is why they bring up completely unrelated and irrelevant arguments to deflect the conversation away from the painful truth that their programs only win those titles because they have 10 times more kids to chose from than public A schools. The truth has them painted into a corner, and because they can't face this embarrassing reality, they lash out in desperation to make themselves feel better. Other private schools that put integrity before winning realized this truth, so they opted up, which kills these A private school fans even more.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me why it is acceptable and ethical for teams with AA sized talent pools to be playing in and dominating A, and until I hear a real answer I will continue to bring this fact up.

[HShockeywatcher]

Of course there are exceptions (2005 Warroad comes to mind), but 90+% of the time the top team from the highest class is much better than the top team in the next lower class. For example in football Eden Prairie is surely a better team than Rocori, who is better than St. Croix Lutheran, and so on. And the gap grows larger towards the middle of the classes. #25 in AAAA of whatever the team sport, is probably much better than #25 in AAA. It's like that in every state, with exceptions, like you pointed out.

I will say I am with you on the idea that people are really reaching for reasons to hate private schools and the current format. In hockey, "resources" could be having 3 rinks in a town of 2,000 people like Warroad and Roseau. Besides, a good majority of the best class A state tournament games over the last decade have had at least one private school playing. 02 TG vs. Fergus, 04 SSP vs. Breck, 05 TG vs. Warroad, 06&07 STA vs. DM, 11 TRF vs. Breck, 11 STA vs. Hermantown. Why people want to change that is beyond me.

Seems to me we are likely saying the same thing differently and have mainly the same opinion. I'm not at all saying most teams that have more kids to, theoretically*, pull from won't be better, but that in and of itself does not make them better. There is this mind set in hockey, which is unfortunate imo.

(*I say theoretically because a sport like hockey is unlike others in that you aren't pulling from the whole student body, like you are in most other sports. You can't pick up hockey your senior year because you're a good athlete and play in college like is seen around the nation in almost every other sport yearly. But that's a minor tangent here )

2. I am not addressing any one class tournament or super section arguments because they are futile. The two class split is irreversible; the MSHSL is NOT going to give up the extra money it brings in.

I highly doubt the revenue is the reason. Less classes actually produces more games.

3. HSHW, you keep bringing up that the public schools should do more to draw kids in and that private schools are "providing a place for students to attend when, in their opinion, their money isn't being well spent at their local school. " Fine, I see what you are saying, private schools do offer great facilities, teachers, curriculum, etc. but this is totally irrelevant to the fact that they still have AA sized talent pools. Other STA and Breck fans acknowledge that this is indeed a fact, so should you. It doesn't matter why kids go to private schools, what matters is that when they get their talent from a huge area, they are a AA school, period.

I haven't denied it yet, nor will I.
That isn't how the MSHSL, or any other state, defines classes.

5. Who is really going nuts are the private school alums on this message board who can't stand the fact that their titles are tainted and not respected by anyone other than their fellow classmates. They want the recognition and glory that comes with winning state titles, but they never get it because anyone can see what a farce it is that they are in class A. That is why they bring up completely unrelated and irrelevant arguments to deflect the conversation away from the painful truth that their programs only win those titles because they have 10 times more kids to chose from than public A schools. The truth has them painted into a corner, and because they can't face this embarrassing reality, they lash out in desperation to make themselves feel better. Other private schools that put integrity before winning realized this truth, so they opted up, which kills these A private school fans even more.

The same comments were made about HM, AHA and CDH when they won. How do you defend that?

Apparently you aren't actually reading the comments made; the two STA alumni posting the most on here have both said they'd prefer their alma mater in AA, as has the Breck supporter.

I would like my tax dollars to go toward something more than finger pointing when there isn't success. And yes, I think it is an issue. I know you are ignorant to the issues from your vantage point, but students leaving public schools for private schools is an issue. And all that is discussed to remedy the situation is pointing fingers.


Anyway, I like using this discussion board to have real discussions. It helps keep a little sanity when there is so much that isn't in life. I am an open book and always willing to learn something new. I know from both the PMs and responses I get from both sides of the "discussion" that I know something of what I'm talking about.
If you think for a second that putting all private schools in AA would be a good thing for high school hockey, I highly doubt you have thought things through.

Anyway, hope you enjoyed my essay; have a good day [/i]

[blacklung]

If trying to stick to the main point of the thread by making reasoned, focused arguments is going nuts, then yes, I am flying over the cuckoo's nest for sure.

A couple of points:
1. I am a Hibbing fan, not a Hermantown fan. Hermantown is the epitome of what Class A hockey is about, and I admire them greatly for it.

2. I am not addressing any one class tournament or super section arguments because they are futile. The two class split is irreversible; the MSHSL is NOT going to give up the extra money it brings in. Putting private schools in AA could very well happen though, as every year the private dominance continues, the voices of opposition get louder.

3. HSHW, you keep bringing up that the public schools should do more to draw kids in and that private schools are "providing a place for students to attend when, in their opinion, their money isn't being well spent at their local school. " Fine, I see what you are saying, private schools do offer great facilities, teachers, curriculum, etc. but this is totally irrelevant to the fact that they still have AA sized talent pools. Other STA and Breck fans acknowledge that this is indeed a fact, so should you. It doesn't matter why kids go to private schools, what matters is that when they get their talent from a huge area, they are a AA school, period.

4. To those who say the public class A schools are whining because they are losing, you are right, but only half right. We are whining because our A teams are losing to AA schools. 1% of class A fans complain when a Warroad or Hermantown win; 99% of A fans complain when STA or Breck win. The AA equivalent to this is if SSM were allowed to play in HS. They would win tons of titles and dominate, and boy, would you hear the whining then. But you know what? That whining would be totally justified, just as it is for teams like STA and Breck sandbagging in A.

5. Who is really going nuts are the private school alums on this message board who can't stand the fact that their titles are tainted and not respected by anyone other than their fellow classmates. They want the recognition and glory that comes with winning state titles, but they never get it because anyone can see what a farce it is that they are in class A. That is why they bring up completely unrelated and irrelevant arguments to deflect the conversation away from the painful truth that their programs only win those titles because they have 10 times more kids to chose from than public A schools. The truth has them painted into a corner, and because they can't face this embarrassing reality, they lash out in desperation to make themselves feel better. Other private schools that put integrity before winning realized this truth, so they opted up, which kills these A private school fans even more.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me why it is acceptable and ethical for teams with AA sized talent pools to be playing in and dominating A, and until I hear a real answer I will continue to bring this fact up.

Rainman, puckranger, others; kudos to you dealing with these folks defending teams like STA playing in Class A hockey.
It is so obviously unfair that they just choose not see it so they can feel good about their trophies.
How about any HS that does not have a youth program must play AA.
Privates, you do not have a program. You do not develop young hockey players. You just get the kids after they have played through their youth program.
STA’s program is to get the best kids from the metro area by funneling the MN Blades AAA program kids onto their team.
As I said in a previous post earlier this year, 14 players on last year’s STA team played for the MN Blades.
The Blades program attracts the best hockey players from the metro area of over 3,000,000 people.
In reality, the privates have limitless access to players from anywhere in the state.
They have no boundaries and kids do not have to move into any specific area to play there.
I do not have a problem with this as it is a great opportunity for many players.
The problem is them playing in A when in all actuality they are AAA teams.
If STA does not win Class 1A every year the school administration should be looking at why and heads should roll.

[rainier]

My responses to HSHW's comments are in bold:
"I highly doubt the revenue is the reason. Less classes actually produces more games."

In the one class system, there were 11 games per tourney, with a two class tournament, there are 22. Teams can still only play 25 regular season games, so how does having more classes decrease the number of games? Even with my public school education I know 22 is larger than 11.

"I haven't denied it (STA draws from a AA sized talent pool) yet, nor will I.
That isn't how the MSHSL, or any other state, defines classes. "

This is the very loophole A privates are exploiting. Just because I don't explicitly tell you not to steal my car doesn't give you permission to do it. The structure of private school enrollments are very different from public schools, and STA and Breck have taken advantage of this difference at the expense of their integrity. Opting up would restore this.

"The same comments were made about HM, AHA and CDH when they won. How do you defend that? "

Simple, they were drawing from a pool of players that was within the ballpark of other AA teams, they weren't beating on A teams that had much, much smaller enrollments. I don't feel complaints about AA privates are justified when they are competing against megaschools with enrollments over 2,000.

"Apparently you aren't actually reading the comments made; the two STA alumni posting the most on here have both said they'd prefer their alma mater in AA, as has the Breck supporter."

I commend those supporters who have called for their teams to opt up. By doing so, these supporters are acknowledging that they do not belong in A, which is the issue here.

"If you think for a second that putting all private schools in AA would be a good thing for high school hockey, I highly doubt you have thought things through."

Once again, here is my idea:

1. All private schools should be moved to AA.

2. All private schools can then petition to be in A, and the A coaches would vote to see if they feel the school belongs in A.

This way the tiny privates still building programs could stay in A, and the dominating privates would stay in the class they are most suited for, AA.

[KICKED-IN-THE-PRIVATES]

If trying to stick to the main point of the thread by making reasoned, focused arguments is going nuts, then yes, I am flying over the cuckoo's nest for sure.

A couple of points:
1. I am a Hibbing fan, not a Hermantown fan. Hermantown is the epitome of what Class A hockey is about, and I admire them greatly for it.

2. I am not addressing any one class tournament or super section arguments because they are futile. The two class split is irreversible; the MSHSL is NOT going to give up the extra money it brings in. Putting private schools in AA could very well happen though, as every year the private dominance continues, the voices of opposition get louder.

3. HSHW, you keep bringing up that the public schools should do more to draw kids in and that private schools are "providing a place for students to attend when, in their opinion, their money isn't being well spent at their local school. " Fine, I see what you are saying, private schools do offer great facilities, teachers, curriculum, etc. but this is totally irrelevant to the fact that they still have AA sized talent pools. Other STA and Breck fans acknowledge that this is indeed a fact, so should you. It doesn't matter why kids go to private schools, what matters is that when they get their talent from a huge area, they are a AA school, period.

4. To those who say the public class A schools are whining because they are losing, you are right, but only half right. We are whining because our A teams are losing to AA schools. 1% of class A fans complain when a Warroad or Hermantown win; 99% of A fans complain when STA or Breck win. The AA equivalent to this is if SSM were allowed to play in HS. They would win tons of titles and dominate, and boy, would you hear the whining then. But you know what? That whining would be totally justified, just as it is for teams like STA and Breck sandbagging in A.

5. Who is really going nuts are the private school alums on this message board who can't stand the fact that their titles are tainted and not respected by anyone other than their fellow classmates. They want the recognition and glory that comes with winning state titles, but they never get it because anyone can see what a farce it is that they are in class A. That is why they bring up completely unrelated and irrelevant arguments to deflect the conversation away from the painful truth that their programs only win those titles because they have 10 times more kids to chose from than public A schools. The truth has them painted into a corner, and because they can't face this embarrassing reality, they lash out in desperation to make themselves feel better. Other private schools that put integrity before winning realized this truth, so they opted up, which kills these A private school fans even more.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me why it is acceptable and ethical for teams with AA sized talent pools to be playing in and dominating A, and until I hear a real answer I will continue to bring this fact up.

Great Post!
Question is then: How do we fairly determine "AA" sized talent pool? SCC, Lourdes, and Marshall are all good pretty much every year (Top 15 Class A), but not on the same level as STA, Breck, T-G and Blake. Marshall maybe closer because the talent pool is richer and deeper in Duluth than St. Cloud or Rochester.

[rainier]

Great Post!
Question is then: How do we fairly determine "AA" sized talent pool? SCC, Lourdes, and Marshall are all good pretty much every year (Top 15 Class A), but not on the same level as STA, Breck, T-G and Blake. Marshall maybe closer because the talent pool is richer and deeper in Duluth than St. Cloud or Rochester.

I think my idea would address this:
1. All private schools should be moved to AA.

2. All private schools can then petition to be in A, and the A coaches would vote to see if they feel the school belongs in A.

This way the tiny privates still building programs could stay in A, and the dominating privates would stay in the class they are most suited for, AA. Teams like Lourdes, Marshall, and SCC would be evaluated on a yearly basis. If they are a top ten A team, then they should be in AA. I think this is a very reasonable "price" for them to pay to balance out the advantage they have in avoiding traditional enrollment rules.

Sure, the other 7A coaches might vote for a mediocre Marshall team to be placed in AA so their chances of going to state are improved, but I bet the coaches from the other 7 sections would be more impartial and it would balance out nicely.

[BlueLineSpecial]

I certainly think there is an argument to be made for certain private schools to move from A to AA, and those include STA and Breck. That said, the criteria can't simply be based on the success of a program. Because when this happens, it leaves the door open for detractors to argue that people are just 'hating' on their successful program.

Obviously these private schools can pull from a large population, but to say that they have unlimited resources just isn't factual. I attended HM and can tell you that a decent percentage of the folks that attended the school weren't rich. I had a humble upbringing, and so did the majority of my friends that attended. I recall an article a year or two back that former goalie Tim Shaughnessey worked at Culvers to help pay for his own tuition. Anyway, I guess my point is that its off-base to claim private schools have unlimited resources and funds. Some do, and that might include STA and Breck.

Until private schools that have successful programs make a decision to move up in class I'm not sure things are going to change. I don't think there are many out there that feel STA winning title after title recently is in the spirit and intent of the two class system. That said, it makes for great hockey, doesn't it? Its fun to root against the evil private schools in both classes, and it makes it that much more rewarding when a small northern school or public metro school with homegrown kids takes the title, doesn't it?

[jackdaw]

If trying to stick to the main point of the thread by making reasoned, focused arguments is going nuts, then yes, I am flying over the cuckoo's nest for sure.

A couple of points:
1. I am a Hibbing fan, not a Hermantown fan. Hermantown is the epitome of what Class A hockey is about, and I admire them greatly for it.

2. I am not addressing any one class tournament or super section arguments because they are futile. The two class split is irreversible; the MSHSL is NOT going to give up the extra money it brings in. Putting private schools in AA could very well happen though, as every year the private dominance continues, the voices of opposition get louder.

3. HSHW, you keep bringing up that the public schools should do more to draw kids in and that private schools are "providing a place for students to attend when, in their opinion, their money isn't being well spent at their local school. " Fine, I see what you are saying, private schools do offer great facilities, teachers, curriculum, etc. but this is totally irrelevant to the fact that they still have AA sized talent pools. Other STA and Breck fans acknowledge that this is indeed a fact, so should you. It doesn't matter why kids go to private schools, what matters is that when they get their talent from a huge area, they are a AA school, period.

4. To those who say the public class A schools are whining because they are losing, you are right, but only half right. We are whining because our A teams are losing to AA schools. 1% of class A fans complain when a Warroad or Hermantown win; 99% of A fans complain when STA or Breck win. The AA equivalent to this is if SSM were allowed to play in HS. They would win tons of titles and dominate, and boy, would you hear the whining then. But you know what? That whining would be totally justified, just as it is for teams like STA and Breck sandbagging in A.

5. Who is really going nuts are the private school alums on this message board who can't stand the fact that their titles are tainted and not respected by anyone other than their fellow classmates. They want the recognition and glory that comes with winning state titles, but they never get it because anyone can see what a farce it is that they are in class A. That is why they bring up completely unrelated and irrelevant arguments to deflect the conversation away from the painful truth that their programs only win those titles because they have 10 times more kids to chose from than public A schools. The truth has them painted into a corner, and because they can't face this embarrassing reality, they lash out in desperation to make themselves feel better. Other private schools that put integrity before winning realized this truth, so they opted up, which kills these A private school fans even more.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me why it is acceptable and ethical for teams with AA sized talent pools to be playing in and dominating A, and until I hear a real answer I will continue to bring this fact up.

Great Post!
Question is then: How do we fairly determine "AA" sized talent pool? SCC, Lourdes, and Marshall are all good pretty much every year (Top 15 Class A), but not on the same level as STA, Breck, T-G and Blake. Marshall maybe closer because the talent pool is richer and deeper in Duluth than St. Cloud or Rochester.

That is a great solution and instead of size of school it is location. Any private school in the 7 county Metro area is automatically AA and can petition to be A.

[HShockeywatcher]

I know you will say my points are not valid because I'm not quoting what you said and putting mine in bold, but I will go ahead with it anyway:

-A 64 team, single elimination bracket yields 63 games. Two of them has 126 games.
A 128 team, single elimination bracket yields 127 games.
I'm not going to do all the math, but dividing creates less match ups from the beginning to the end of playoffs.

Where the MSHSL chooses to start having the games at a "big" venue and taking revenue from ticket sales is up to them. They could play the 7th place game, or do whatever they want to that effect. More divisions = less games overall.

-There seems to be this notion that every hockey player in the metro applies to get into all the private schools in the area and only the best are "hand picked" and admitted. I'm not naive to think that everyone "goes there for the education" and those who can skate are then put on the hockey team. Neither extreme is true.

-At the end of the day, if you successfully ruined MN high school hockey, I'd still get to go to games to watch my alma mater 20 years from now while they're playing their 50 game schedules.

I certainly think there is an argument to be made for certain private schools to move from A to AA, and those include STA and Breck. That said, the criteria can't simply be based on the success of a program. Because when this happens, it leaves the door open for detractors to argue that people are just 'hating' on their successful program.

Great post with many great points. It is a weird thing; the only issue is success. Prior to 2006 there really weren't too many complaints about St Thomas that I saw, nor private schools in general in Class A. The only complaints were the AA private schools that were winning.

This mentality continues; many posters are okay with private schools in Class A as long as they aren't successful, but once they are, it's time to get out.

We have two great tournaments this week, one that starts tomorrow. Everyone enjoy your week, should be some fun games.

[defense]

The vast majority of championship teams anywhere, whatever the sport are true top level teams who are playing their best or close to it when they win. THis is especially true in a single elimination format. IF the top public class A team was totally wiped out by the private school who won the tourney, or any class A private school, then yes, I can start to listen to the argument that the private schools are too good for class A based largely on the fact that they have an advantage with the number of kids they draw from. I can think of one class A private school who won a championship who might fit this bill, this didn't last more than a year though....
I also think that it is fair to mention that there have been public schools who have dominated class A. Now, minus the private school who provides the competition to the top class A public school, what do you have???? Many, many class A seasons dominated by one team.
The point is: most often, the teams who are getting blown out by the private school in the tourney are not a true top level team who is playing their best hockey or close to it. The team who got blown out would've been routed anyway.
These schools may have advantages, but to me they really aren't totally relevant.

Example: If St. Thomas Academy blows out Little Falls, I do not think anyone can argue that St. Thomas Academy blew them out solely because they have an unfair advantage. Little Falls, while talented, has not had their best season.
If St. Thomas Academy walks into the championship game and schools Hermantown like it is a scrimmage against the JV, then yes I think an argument can be made.