Now is the time to force all Privates up to "AA"

[HShockeywatcher]

The fact is if you ask MN high school hockey fans, coaches, and administrators the majority (by a wide margin) would agree that St. Thomas, Breck, and a handful of others should opt up. While I don't know if privates should automatically be mandated to be in AA I definitely think there should be a forced opt up after a specified number of state titles (when it's apparent they have a significant advantage over their Class A peers.) Most schools realize this on their own, whether they're public or private, but you'll always get some that want to pad their trophy case and stroke their ego. Are they breaking any rules? No, but is it worth losing your integrity....to some it is.

This isn't my first hand knowledge, but simply based on what people on here say, change happens because coaches/administrators want it to. If it was truly the case that the [vast] majority wanted something, I have a feeling it would happen.

What do we have a 7th class in football? It is totally beyond me; but many people were calling for it so it happened. I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling that many of the top public school coaches in Class A don't want many teams out, they probably want some back.

[rainier]

According to the one who knows all, they are an A school and don't "draw" students from anywhere outside of Mahtomedi, so they are right where they should be. Unless of course, they want to move up.

It just keeps getting better.

Let's take a look at your "Mahtomedi can draw from an AA sized talent pool also" argument.

You have said it is 20k/year to go to STA, you also said that families get assistance if they can't afford the 20k. Let's see, is it the good academics that draws players from a huge area in to STA, or is it 80k over four years? If the school's amenities and education are so wonderful and such a huge draw, then why was STA a terrible hockey school for so long?

To quote stickler, "They made a commitment to hockey." What is that commitment? $$$, pure and simple. They decided to put more money into the hockey program, and yes it meant a new arena and paying more for high level coaches, but it also meant giving more money to talented hockey players so they could afford to attend. For the poorest of these kids, I'm sure it was a full ride, 80k over four years.

Now why in the world would I think Mahtomedi is in a completely different situation and shouldn't be viewed in the same way STA is. Why? Why? Why?...

Oh wait, it's because Mahtomedi can't offer families 80k to send their talented kids there.

Another reason Mahtomedi can't be compared equally to STA is that it is an actual community. There are ties that go far beyond the four year blip that high school is. Mahtomedi has a youth program, thus parents, kids, and coaches get to know each other for ten years before a kid ever takes one stride in a varsity game. It wouldn't be possible for Mahtomedi to take in 15 transfer students/year, there would be an uproar. One or two kids, sure that is reasonable. But a whole roster? These parents, coaches, and kids aren't going to put in that much time, money, and effort just to watch their whole program get taken over by a group of all-stars that never once put on a Mahtomedi jersey before 10 grade. It just wouldn't happen. Winning does not trump everything, at least in public schools it doesn't.

As soon as Mahtomedi can offer 80k to get a kid to transfer and as soon as Mahtomedi's parents, players, and coaches are okay with their youth program being rendered meaningless by 85% of their varsity team being made up of transfers, then I will listen to your "public schools can draw kids just the same as privates can" argument.

I may have a public school education, but even I can see STA and Mahtomedi are in completely different situations.

[BadgerBob82]

Maybe a little off topic as it could go into the transfer thread. But so many people make the argument open enrollment and private school choices are made strictly for ACADEMIC reasons. If so, partcipation in Varsity sports should not be available for open enrolled students. Keep in mind, the reason they chose the school was for academic reasons, so varsity sports shouldn't matter.

I think private schools should have to identify the home public school district of their athletes. If the majority (read 51% or more) of their team comes from public school boundaries with enrollments placing them at the AA level for hockey, then that private school must also play at the AA level.

Success has nothing to do with it. In other words, Hopkins can't petition to play down to A because they haven't had "success" at the AA level. So if 80% of Providence Academy hockey players come from say Wayzata, Eden Prairie and Minnetonka, then they play at the AA level. PERIOD.

It's about academics anyway. Right?

[HShockeywatcher]

Students don't get athletic scholarships to attend high schools. And no (very few anyway) scholarhips are for full tuition. They are strictly need based.
Additionally, there is no money exchanging hands when this happens; the scholarships are for tuition. So, a public school doesn't need to offer scholarships since their tuition is already covered by the tax payers in the area.

So, just to clarify; you want the schools to report every city they have students attending from, then add up the populations of those cities and have that be the "pool" they are drawing from?
I'd be fine with that. Lots of paper work for already busy public employees, but that seems logical.

Maybe a little off topic as it could go into the transfer thread. But so many people make the argument open enrollment and private school choices are made strictly for ACADEMIC reasons. If so, partcipation in Varsity sports should not be available for open enrolled students. Keep in mind, the reason they chose the school was for academic reasons, so varsity sports shouldn't matter.

Academics and athletics for high school student-athletes are not mutually exclusive. If you made them that way, many less would open enroll.
But they are unavailable for the first season if not transferred before 9th grade.

[icehornet]

I think private schools should have to identify the home public school district of their athletes. If the majority (read 51% or more) of their team comes from public school boundaries with enrollments placing them at the AA level for hockey, then that private school must also play at the AA level.

This I would support 100%.

This isn't my first hand knowledge, but simply based on what people on here say, change happens because coaches/administrators want it to. If it was truly the case that the [vast] majority wanted something, I have a feeling it would happen.

What do we have a 7th class in football? It is totally beyond me; but many people were calling for it so it happened. I don't know for sure, but I have a feeling that many of the top public school coaches in Class A don't want many teams out, they probably want some back.

It would've been better for me to just say STA and Breck. It's not as if you would create an entirely new class for two schools and there's really nothing that can be done about it unless the MSHSL changes the rules. It is beyond me how the admin at STA and Breck can look around and feel content when the likes of Benilde, AHA, Hill, and now even Holy Family are opting up. Both programs are within the "rules" by staying in A, but it's to the detriment of their reputation/integrity.

[icehornet]

Students don't get athletic scholarships to attend high schools.

Right, and Ivy League schools don't give athletic scholarships either. I'm not saying it happens in every situation, but let's not bury our heads in the sand here either.

[duluth dave]

STA and Breck dont have any integrity.

[BadgerBob82]

HSHockeywatcher: I didn't say EVERY school would document the population of the city from which the player, errr student lives.

PRIVATE school. So the 30 hockey players at a private school would be listed as what public high school boundary they reside.

Kinda like the old joke of the starting line-up for Hopkins B-Ball games.

"Starting a Center, from Apple Valley MN... Starting at Guard, from Stillwater MN...

[hockey59]

Watching STA vs. Little Falls right now (4-0 STA early in 2nd period)...and what strikes me is it's like watching (in effect) a top level AAA team or Select team playing a community based team.

STA, BRECK and Duluth Marshall in particular have proved over the past 10 years that they are 1st rate hockey programs. What sley's me is why they choose to play in a 2nd rate tourney for a 2nd rate title...other than the fact that THEY CAN based on MSHSL rules which don't translate properly for hockey. I guess they're alumni and administration need to be able to pump their tires by saying they've won some State titles...which to me are hollow and doesn't mean nearly as much as even qualifying for State as a AA school.

....and while I also think Hermantown and Warroad should play AA, I can at least tolerate seeing them in A because they are community based teams.

[Master Recruiter]

Watching STA vs. Little Falls right now (4-0 STA early in 2nd period)...and what strikes me is it's like watching (in effect) a top level AAA team or Select team playing a community based team.

STA, BRECK and Duluth Marshall in particular have proved over the past 10 years that they are 1st rate hockey programs. What sley's me is why they choose to play in a 2nd rate tourney for a 2nd rate title...other than the fact that THEY CAN based on MSHSL rules which don't translate properly for hockey. I guess they're alumni and administration need to be able to pump their tires by saying they've won some State titles...which to me are hollow and doesn't mean nearly as much as even qualifying for State as a AA school.

....and while I also think Hermantown and Warroad should play AA, I can at least tolerate seeing them in A because they are community based teams.

The Class A tournament needs to be SMALL TOWN...not SMALL ENROLLMENT

end of story

[HShockeywatcher]

Watching STA vs. Little Falls right now (4-0 STA early in 2nd period)...and what strikes me is it's like watching (in effect) a top level AAA team or Select team playing a community based team.

This will likely be the case 3 times today. In one of the games, the bigger team will be on the short end. In most years it also happens in AA.

MSHSL rules which don't translate properly for hockey.

You are 100% right. There is no reason for teams to opt up to a bigger class because we all know there is quality hockey played by small schools as well.

[Nostalgic Nerd]

....and while I also think Hermantown and Warroad should play AA, I can at least tolerate seeing them in A because they are community based teams.

Same difference. Any team that has the potential to improve themselves by opting up should.

[rainier]

Who needs pride, self-respect, and integrity when you can have shiny trophies?

Good luck STA, may you "earn" another title. We all know how you "developed" your players into the juggernaut they are today. What a joke.

This is shameful and a black mark on high school sports.

[observer]

New for next year.

You want to be single A then you can only play a single A schedule all year.

[sachishi4]

According to the one who knows all, they are an A school and don't "draw" students from anywhere outside of Mahtomedi, so they are right where they should be. Unless of course, they want to move up.

It just keeps getting better.

Let's take a look at your "Mahtomedi can draw from an AA sized talent pool also" argument.

You have said it is 20k/year to go to STA, you also said that families get assistance if they can't afford the 20k. Let's see, is it the good academics that draws players from a huge area in to STA, or is it 80k over four years? If the school's amenities and education are so wonderful and such a huge draw, then why was STA a terrible hockey school for so long?

To quote stickler, "They made a commitment to hockey." What is that commitment? $$$, pure and simple. They decided to put more money into the hockey program, and yes it meant a new arena and paying more for high level coaches, but it also meant giving more money to talented hockey players so they could afford to attend. For the poorest of these kids, I'm sure it was a full ride, 80k over four years.

Now why in the world would I think Mahtomedi is in a completely different situation and shouldn't be viewed in the same way STA is. Why? Why? Why?...

Oh wait, it's because Mahtomedi can't offer families 80k to send their talented kids there.

Another reason Mahtomedi can't be compared equally to STA is that it is an actual community. There are ties that go far beyond the four year blip that high school is. Mahtomedi has a youth program, thus parents, kids, and coaches get to know each other for ten years before a kid ever takes one stride in a varsity game. It wouldn't be possible for Mahtomedi to take in 15 transfer students/year, there would be an uproar. One or two kids, sure that is reasonable. But a whole roster? These parents, coaches, and kids aren't going to put in that much time, money, and effort just to watch their whole program get taken over by a group of all-stars that never once put on a Mahtomedi jersey before 10 grade. It just wouldn't happen. Winning does not trump everything, at least in public schools it doesn't.

As soon as Mahtomedi can offer 80k to get a kid to transfer and as soon as Mahtomedi's parents, players, and coaches are okay with their youth program being rendered meaningless by 85% of their varsity team being made up of transfers, then I will listen to your "public schools can draw kids just the same as privates can" argument.

I may have a public school education, but even I can see STA and Mahtomedi are in completely different situations.

so private school kids never go to school with each other from previous private schools? You are ignorant to think that private school teams have NEVER played with each other before high school. Not to mention summer leagues, and other practice times. These parents and families know each other too.

Also, Mahtomedi open enrolls...

Im not saying they are similar situations, but don't be ignorant about private school kids and open enrollment.

I dislike what Breck, STA, and to a lesser extent what Marshall is doing. They will figure it out eventually.

[rainier]

According to the one who knows all, they are an A school and don't "draw" students from anywhere outside of Mahtomedi, so they are right where they should be. Unless of course, they want to move up.

It just keeps getting better.

Let's take a look at your "Mahtomedi can draw from an AA sized talent pool also" argument.

You have said it is 20k/year to go to STA, you also said that families get assistance if they can't afford the 20k. Let's see, is it the good academics that draws players from a huge area in to STA, or is it 80k over four years? If the school's amenities and education are so wonderful and such a huge draw, then why was STA a terrible hockey school for so long?

To quote stickler, "They made a commitment to hockey." What is that commitment? $$$, pure and simple. They decided to put more money into the hockey program, and yes it meant a new arena and paying more for high level coaches, but it also meant giving more money to talented hockey players so they could afford to attend. For the poorest of these kids, I'm sure it was a full ride, 80k over four years.

Now why in the world would I think Mahtomedi is in a completely different situation and shouldn't be viewed in the same way STA is. Why? Why? Why?...

Oh wait, it's because Mahtomedi can't offer families 80k to send their talented kids there.

Another reason Mahtomedi can't be compared equally to STA is that it is an actual community. There are ties that go far beyond the four year blip that high school is. Mahtomedi has a youth program, thus parents, kids, and coaches get to know each other for ten years before a kid ever takes one stride in a varsity game. It wouldn't be possible for Mahtomedi to take in 15 transfer students/year, there would be an uproar. One or two kids, sure that is reasonable. But a whole roster? These parents, coaches, and kids aren't going to put in that much time, money, and effort just to watch their whole program get taken over by a group of all-stars that never once put on a Mahtomedi jersey before 10 grade. It just wouldn't happen. Winning does not trump everything, at least in public schools it doesn't.

As soon as Mahtomedi can offer 80k to get a kid to transfer and as soon as Mahtomedi's parents, players, and coaches are okay with their youth program being rendered meaningless by 85% of their varsity team being made up of transfers, then I will listen to your "public schools can draw kids just the same as privates can" argument.

I may have a public school education, but even I can see STA and Mahtomedi are in completely different situations.

so private school kids never go to school with each other from previous private schools? You are ignorant to think that private school teams have NEVER played with each other before high school. Not to mention summer leagues, and other practice times. These parents and families know each other too.

Also, Mahtomedi open enrolls...

Im not saying they are similar situations, but don't be ignorant about private school kids and open enrollment.

I dislike what Breck, STA, and to a lesser extent what Marshall is doing. They will figure it out eventually.

Not sure how you got that out of my post, but whatever. Doesn't change the fact that Mahtomedi can't offer 80k to get a kid to play at their school. And their whole argument was based on the claim that Mahtomedi can get kids just like STA can, which is just not true. It may be true in theory, but in the real world it is not.

No matter what, it doesn't change the fact that STA draws from a AA sized talent pool yet they still play in A. It is just a fact.

[hockey59]

Watching STA vs. Little Falls right now (4-0 STA early in 2nd period)...and what strikes me is it's like watching (in effect) a top level AAA team or Select team playing a community based team.

This will likely be the case 3 times today. In one of the games, the bigger team will be on the short end. In most years it also happens in AA.

MSHSL rules which don't translate properly for hockey.

You are 100% right. There is no reason for teams to opt up to a bigger class because we all know there is quality hockey played by small schools as well.

STA lost to Hill, Edina, Duluth East and Hill this year (all 3 are in the AA tourney)...yeah I'd rather play against "quality small schools" if my goal was to collect (meaningless) state titles too. LOL

I'm sure if they polled the STA players...the majority would prefer to play AA because these kids have some pride.

PS: At least the BRECK and Duluth Marshall supporters stay MUTE on this thread...they know better than trying to defend playing Class A.

[Goldy23]

Watching STA vs. Little Falls right now (4-0 STA early in 2nd period)...and what strikes me is it's like watching (in effect) a top level AAA team or Select team playing a community based team.

This will likely be the case 3 times today. In one of the games, the bigger team will be on the short end. In most years it also happens in AA.

MSHSL rules which don't translate properly for hockey.

You are 100% right. There is no reason for teams to opt up to a bigger class because we all know there is quality hockey played by small schools as well.

STA lost to Hill, Edina, Duluth East and Hill this year (all 3 are in the AA tourney)...yeah I'd rather play against "quality small schools" if my goal was to collect (meaningless) state titles too. LOL

I'm sure if they polled the STA players...the majority would prefer to play AA because these kids have some pride.

PS: At least the BRECK and Duluth Marshall supporters stay MUTE on this thread...they know better than trying to defend playing Class A.

I'm a Breck supporter and I agree that under the current situation, STA should be forced to move up due to number of Boys attending the school and Breck should opt up because they have proven they are one of if not the most prolific recruiters in the State. A better solution is one 16 team State tourney and drop the class A/AA.

[sachishi4]

This will likely be the case 3 times today. In one of the games, the bigger team will be on the short end. In most years it also happens in AA.
You are 100% right. There is no reason for teams to opt up to a bigger class because we all know there is quality hockey played by small schools as well.

STA lost to Hill, Edina, Duluth East and Hill this year (all 3 are in the AA tourney)...yeah I'd rather play against "quality small schools" if my goal was to collect (meaningless) state titles too. LOL

I'm sure if they polled the STA players...the majority would prefer to play AA because these kids have some pride.

PS: At least the BRECK and Duluth Marshall supporters stay MUTE on this thread...they know better than trying to defend playing Class A.

I'm a Breck supporter and I agree that under the current situation, STA should be forced to move up due to number of Boys attending the school and Breck should opt up because they have proven they are one of if not the most prolific recruiters in the State. A better solution is one 16 team State tourney and drop the class A/AA.

so none of the small schools can ever compete?

[Master Recruiter]

This will likely be the case 3 times today. In one of the games, the bigger team will be on the short end. In most years it also happens in AA.
You are 100% right. There is no reason for teams to opt up to a bigger class because we all know there is quality hockey played by small schools as well.

STA lost to Hill, Edina, Duluth East and Hill this year (all 3 are in the AA tourney)...yeah I'd rather play against "quality small schools" if my goal was to collect (meaningless) state titles too. LOL

I'm sure if they polled the STA players...the majority would prefer to play AA because these kids have some pride.

PS: At least the BRECK and Duluth Marshall supporters stay MUTE on this thread...they know better than trying to defend playing Class A.

I'm a Breck supporter and I agree that under the current situation, STA should be forced to move up due to number of Boys attending the school and Breck should opt up because they have proven they are one of if not the most prolific recruiters in the State. A better solution is one 16 team State tourney and drop the class A/AA.

The solution is changing Class A from SMALL ENROLLMENT to SMALL TOWN, and then giving small towns like Roseau the option to play AA if they want

[rainier]

This will likely be the case 3 times today. In one of the games, the bigger team will be on the short end. In most years it also happens in AA.
You are 100% right. There is no reason for teams to opt up to a bigger class because we all know there is quality hockey played by small schools as well.

STA lost to Hill, Edina, Duluth East and Hill this year (all 3 are in the AA tourney)...yeah I'd rather play against "quality small schools" if my goal was to collect (meaningless) state titles too. LOL

I'm sure if they polled the STA players...the majority would prefer to play AA because these kids have some pride.

PS: At least the BRECK and Duluth Marshall supporters stay MUTE on this thread...they know better than trying to defend playing Class A.

I'm a Breck supporter and I agree that under the current situation, STA should be forced to move up due to number of Boys attending the school and Breck should opt up because they have proven they are one of if not the most prolific recruiters in the State. A better solution is one 16 team State tourney and drop the class A/AA.

I can completely respect that. I would love to see Breck and STA playing in the AA tourney. I may not root for them, but I would absolutely respect their accomplishments.

It is those who try to rationalize them being in A that causes me to rant like a lunatic on here. (OK, so I am a lunatic.)

[MrBoDangles]

They schedule Shattuck St Mary and another top prep school from out east and then play in the small school league in MN . Who are they trying to kid... It's all about the money. They figure why risk it in AA when they're still able to attract good players and collect the (plastic) trophy at the end. They know what they're doing to the small town kids of our state and don't seem to care one bit.


The faculty must be a bunch of weasels

[mvp3]

Alright after reading all of this, I have a few thoughts of my own. I attended a non-metro private school. First I do not think you can just lump all private schools together. Every school will have different amounts of funding and spend they're money differently (putting it into academic resources, athletic resources, etc.). I don't know any numbers but I would assume schools like Breck or STA put a lot more resources into their athletics or hockey teams than other schools may. My school did not have great facilities at all and many times paid to use city-owned facilities and made do with what we had.
Next, my school was located in what Ranier would call a AA size area. But to imply that they have their "pick" of students from that area is not at all true. In fact, enrollment numbers have been dwindling in recent years. Most kids that end up at my private high school have gone to school in private grade and middle schools. There are a number of these grade schools feeding the high school but many of them have been forced to combine because of enrollment and the 2 private middle schools and consolidated into one. Yes some kids come to the middle school or high school after attending public schools but there are also others that leave to go to the public high schools. Because it is a private school (with declining enrollment too) there is some "recruiting" (advertisements, tours, etc) for students but not strictly for athletes. Need based scholarships can be awarded but nothing for athletics.
As far as "stealing players" from the youth association, most of the kids that play at my alma mater attend privates schools before high school while playing on the city youth teams. Also considering that one youth association supplies multiple public schools and the private schools I do not see this as poaching players who should stay true to the city's program.

This is getting a little long now but I guess my main point is that just because a school is an a AA area does not mean they simply have their pick of players from it. To imply this is simply absurd. One size does not fit all when approaching private schools.

[northwoods oldtimer]

Alright after reading all of this, I have a few thoughts of my own. I attended a non-metro private school. First I do not think you can just lump all private schools together. Every school will have different amounts of funding and spend they're money differently (putting it into academic resources, athletic resources, etc.). I don't know any numbers but I would assume schools like Breck or STA put a lot more resources into their athletics or hockey teams than other schools may. My school did not have great facilities at all and many times paid to use city-owned facilities and made do with what we had.
Next, my school was located in what Ranier would call a AA size area. But to imply that they have their "pick" of students from that area is not at all true. In fact, enrollment numbers have been dwindling in recent years. Most kids that end up at my private high school have gone to school in private grade and middle schools. There are a number of these grade schools feeding the high school but many of them have been forced to combine because of enrollment and the 2 private middle schools and consolidated into one. Yes some kids come to the middle school or high school after attending public schools but there are also others that leave to go to the public high schools. Because it is a private school (with declining enrollment too) there is some "recruiting" (advertisements, tours, etc) for students but not strictly for athletes. Need based scholarships can be awarded but nothing for athletics.
As far as "stealing players" from the youth association, most of the kids that play at my alma mater attend privates schools before high school while playing on the city youth teams. Also considering that one youth association supplies multiple public schools and the private schools I do not see this as poaching players who should stay true to the city's program.

This is getting a little long now but I guess my main point is that just because a school is an a AA area does not mean they simply have their pick of players from it. To imply this is simply absurd. One size does not fit all when approaching public schools.

Very good points in your post. I see it as apples and oranges comparison and you cannot lump the private schools at all. Bottom line is this St. Thomas Academy SHOULD be playing AA hockey as they draw from a wide swath of associations currently and attract the talent currently. The administration should receive the brunt of the heat for not making the logical choice to move that club up a level. That program deserves the heat they are getting by pure reluctance to move up to AA level. Should be battling Hill Murray for a shot at a section 4AA spot.

[PVTeaglesAA]

I don't think all private schools are the same. Our New Ulm Eagles have players from 3 private schools, New Ulm Cathedral, MVL, and Sleepy St Mary's along with 3 public schools New Ulm, Sleepy Eye, and Springfield. Sure this gives us AA enrollment but we don't belong in AA unless you want some really small town team in state.