64-team, NCAA-style state tournament for HS Girls Basketball

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ghshockeyfan
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64-team, NCAA-style state tournament for HS Girls Basketball

Post by ghshockeyfan »

Very interesting... this is what I believe we should be doing with MN Girls Hockey...

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_19449624
Class 4A basketball coaches eye 64-team, NCAA-style state tournament
By Tim Leighton
tleighton@pioneerpress.com
Updated: 12/01/2011 11:53:13 PM CST

The concept of an NCAA-style 64-team basketball tournament for Class 4A boys and girls was presented to the Minnesota State High School League's board of directors Thursday during its meeting in Brooklyn Center.

The plan, conceived five years ago by the state coaches association and already approved by an MSHSL advisory committee, would seed the schools by competitive rank and not strictly by geography, the method currently used to seed section tournaments in four classes.

"I was very encouraged by the feedback,'' said Tom Critchley, executive director of the Minnesota Basketball Coaches Association. "I think the important point is to get the concept approved. After that is done, we will work out the details.''

Geography would be used as part of the plan but in harmony with competitive balance. The 64 teams would be seeded and divided into eight sections with the idea of the best eight teams advancing to the state tournament.

"If all 64 teams are seeded and placed by seeding rank, not by geographic location, I would be 100 percent in favor of a 64-team tournament,'' St. Paul Central girls basketball coach Willie Taylor said.

"I am definitely for it and hope they do something to create more interest in girls basketball,'' Lakeville North girls basketball coach Andy Berkvam said.

Critchley said the coaches association is hoping the proposal can be implemented for the 2012-13 season. That likely won't happen.

Because the concept is still in the discussion phase, the earliest it could be implemented is the 2013-14 season, which would tie it in with the statewide competitive section realignment. The board of directors meets again on Feb. 2, when it could receive feedback on the concept that now will be presented to region committees.
"There is enough (interest) that the board wants to look at it more carefully,'' said Kevin Merkle, the MSHSL associate director who oversees boys basketball. "I think that is a good move. I don't think it is fair to just say, no, flat out. It is important to look at this carefully, and the board is choosing to do that.''

Merkle said the 64-team concept could be approved on an experimental basis such as the Sweet 16 format in 1995 and '96.

"I am totally for it,'' Hopkins girls coach Brian Cosgriff said. "You could seed it geographically, very similar to the NCAA. To me, it makes a lot of sense.''

Former longtime Fridley girls basketball coach Pat Barrett, chairman of the Ms. Basketball Award committee, said representatives from boys and girls basketball have met multiple times throughout Minnesota since the fall of 2007 to discuss the concept.

"I believe any plan that can invigorate our fan base and get more people to pay attention to our product, especially at playoff time, would be great,'' Barrett said. "I don't know if we can catch lightning in a bottle like the NCAA 'March Madness,' but much of what we have is built and based on their model, and what has worked.

"I would argue that since we went to four classes, we have lost much of our fan base, not only at the state level, but especially at the section level.''
MNHockeyFan
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Re: 64-team, NCAA-style state tournament for HS Girls Basket

Post by MNHockeyFan »

ghshockeyfan wrote:Very interesting... this is what I believe we should be doing with MN Girls Hockey...

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_19449624
Makes sense to me also. If they were to adopt this for girls hockey then I assume they would maintain separate tournaments for the two classes? If so they would have to adjust Class A which currently has only 52 teams - possibly a 48 team tournament there. In AA there are currently 68 teams so that's about perfect.

In both classes they could either have a few teams not making the playoffs at all or they could have a couple of play-in games like they do now in some of the sectional playoffs. I'd vote in favor of the latter so everyone has a chance at the "second season".
allhoc11
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Re: 64-team, NCAA-style state tournament for HS Girls Basket

Post by allhoc11 »

MNHockeyFan wrote:
ghshockeyfan wrote:Very interesting... this is what I believe we should be doing with MN Girls Hockey...

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_19449624
Makes sense to me also. If they were to adopt this for girls hockey then I assume they would maintain separate tournaments for the two classes? If so they would have to adjust Class A which currently has only 52 teams - possibly a 48 team tournament there. In AA there are currently 68 teams so that's about perfect.

In both classes they could either have a few teams not making the playoffs at all or they could have a couple of play-in games like they do now in some of the sectional playoffs. I'd vote in favor of the latter so everyone has a chance at the "second season".
I love the idea, and think the play in game is a good option. You could then seed teams based on location, with an occasional movement to more travel to maintain bracket integrity. I think it would create some playoff excitement. The hard part, who seeds the teams? As much fun as the tourney is, you would have to have an independent group run the seeding, or the HSL, as I don't think you could get 64 coaches together, and come out with a seeding system that works.
clutterbucket
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Post by clutterbucket »

Best idea I've heard in a long time. In order to accomodate the amount of days needed to do this, you could just eliminate the whole section playoff which is currently a joke for some sections that usually hold 4 or 5 of the top 10 teams in them. It gets you the true top teams in the final 8 (plus a few upset underdogs maybe) rather than having some soft teams that have a soft section getting to the dance.
Tigers33
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:06 pm

Post by Tigers33 »

This has already been brough up many times on the boy's side, so I can only imagine it has been brought up on the girls side. They would have 4 super sections with 16 teams each. Instead of playing a section final those 4 section championships would make up the state tournament. I believe you would still see things done geographically. For example - section 7 and 8 together, section 1 and 2, 3 and 6, 4 and 5. Or something like that.

It will surprise me if the girls basketball sets up a first round matchup bewtween Duluth East and Rochester Mayo - just using those two schools as an example. The MSHSL is all about cutting costs, so it would shock me if teams had to make long unnecessary bus trips.

Love the idea though!
ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

I get the impression that this would still largely be geographic. It would allow for moving the top two teams out of the same section though so that the state championship doesn't happen at sections.

I'm all for that.

The rest of the implementation should minimize travel while placing one team from the following 8 groups in each section

Group 1:
teams ranked 1-8
Group 2:
teams ranked 9-16
Group 3:
teams ranked 17-24
.
.
.

I think this can be done and with minimal travel implications.

PS - I'd use KRACH to seed it (or determine the groups) - but, then again, I am a bit biased... :wink:

http://www.bgoski.com/KRACH_OA.htm

instead of:

http://www.bgoski.com/KRACH_SEC.htm
ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

http://www.twincities.com/prep/ci_19877407
High school league board not sold on idea of 64-team basketball tournaments
By Tim Leighton
tleighton@pioneerpress.com
Posted: 02/03/2012 12:01:00 AM CST
Updated: 2/03 12:26:44 AM


The idea of creating an NCAA-style 64-team tournament in the Class 4A field for boys and girls basketball received a chilly reception from the Minnesota State High School League's board of directors at its meeting Thursday in Brooklyn Center.

The concept was presented for discussion by the coaches associations for both sports, but the board said it needs more answers before it can make a decision.

Those answers could come as soon as next month, when two mock selection committees will seed a 64-team tournament in both sports. The committees will seed eight sections from one through eight. Geography will be a component in the mock process. The 64-team tournaments are designed to create more excitement at the sectional level, with the eight best teams advancing to the state tournament.

The girls mock committee will conduct its selection process on Feb. 26. The boys mock committee will do the same a week later.

The current system is based on geography, not competitive balance.

"It will be really interesting to see what those mock committees bring back,'' said Kevin Merkle, an MSHSL associate director that oversees boys basketball. "Hopefully, the mock system will provide some answers for those that might not understand the concept.''

Merkle told the board that in a survey of 15 region secretaries in December, five supported the concept and eight opposed it. Two did not vote.

Responses included that the idea is geared too much toward Twin Cities

schools and merely spreads out the top teams among the eight sections.
"I think it might be a tough sell at this point, because (the board) has heard from their constituents with regard to some of their concerns,'' Merkle said.

"As good as this is for basketball, I worry about it changing the landscape for everything,'' said board member Mike Manning, the activities director at Rosemount.

Tom Critchley, executive secretary of the Minnesota Boys Basketball Coaches Association, acknowledges the challenges but remains confident the concept will work. If approved at the board's next meeting April 5, the plan would be implemented for the 2013-14 season.

"We feel confident about the open-mindedness of the board in that they want to see more information on the process,'' Critchley said. "I am encouraged by that. There is a lot of interest out there. It might not be a consensus yet, but there is genuine interest.''

The boys and girls basketball coaches associations have been working on the concept for about five years.

"I think we will be in a better position to articulate how to do it and why (the 64-team concept) might work better than what exists right now,'' said Pat Barrett, executive director of the Minnesota Girls Basketball Coaches Association. "Until we actually do it, we will truly not know everything.''

Said Critchley: "The selling point, to me at least, is you are creating a great tournament experience, especially at the section level, for these kids.''

-- The board approved a recommendation to seed Class 1A and 2A state boys basketball tournaments. Following league policy in Class 4A and 3A, the top four teams will be seeded.

-- The board approved adding four events (100, 800, 1,600 and 3,200 meters) for wheelchair-division athletes in track and field. They will be allowed to compete on the track with runners, though not head-to-head. The wheelchair-division athletes will be allowed to score weighted team points.

-- The MSHSL will survey member schools to gauge interest in boys and girls golf in the fall.

-- Eight sections for boys and girls lacrosse will begin next school year.

-- A recommendation to expand from four teams to eight for double elimination for baseball and softball in section play will be voted on in April.
sneach13
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120 Teams

Post by sneach13 »

ghshockeyfan wrote:I get the impression that this would still largely be geographic. It would allow for moving the top two teams out of the same section though so that the state championship doesn't happen at sections.

I'm all for that.

The rest of the implementation should minimize travel while placing one team from the following 8 groups in each section

Group 1:
teams ranked 1-8
Group 2:
teams ranked 9-16
Group 3:
teams ranked 17-24
.
.
.

I think this can be done and with minimal travel implications.

PS - I'd use KRACH to seed it (or determine the groups) - but, then again, I am a bit biased... :wink:

http://www.bgoski.com/KRACH_OA.htm

instead of:

http://www.bgoski.com/KRACH_SEC.htm
Not perfect but I will post for the sake of having a good debate.

Region 1
1 Warroad
2 Roseau
3 North Wright County
4 Thief River Falls
5 Moorhead
6 Bemidji
7 Crookston
8 East Grand Forks
9 International Falls
10 Detroit Lakes
11 Park Rapids Area
12 Fergus Falls
13 Eveleth-Gilbert
14 Lake of the Woods

Region 2
1 Edina
2 Lakeville North
3 Eden Prairie
4 Park of Cottage Grove
5 Burnsville
6 Dodge County
7 Hastings
8 Holy Family/Waconia
9 Farmington
10 Winona
11 New Prague
12 Bloomington Kennedy
13 Austin
14 New Ulm
15 Luverne
16 Worthington

Region 3
1 Hill-Murray
2 Lakeville South
3 Stillwater Area
4 Blaine
5 Rosemount
6 Red Wing
7 Coon Rapids
8 Robbinsdale Armstrong
9 East Ridge
10 Rochester John Marshall
11 Woodbury
12 North St. Paul
13 Tartan
14 Mankato West

Region 4
1 Roseville
2 Elk River/Zimmerman
3 Maple Grove
4 Buffalo
5 Champlin Park
6 Rogers
7 Sartell/Sauk Rapids
8 Alexandria
9 St. Cloud
10 River Lakes
11 Proctor/Hermantown
12 Willmar
13 Brainerd/Little Falls
14 Pequot Lakes
15 LPGE/WDC
16 Morris/Benson

Region 5
1 Benilde-St. Margaret's
2 Eagan
3 Chaska/Chanhassen
4 Bloomington Jefferson
5 Apple Valley
6 Rochester Mayo
7 Henry Sibley
8 Simley
9 Prior Lake
10 Owatonna
11 Northfield
12 Rochester Century
13 Albert Lea
14 Waseca
15 Fairmont
16 Windom

Region 6
1 Minnetonka
2 Mounds View
3 Hopkins
4 Wayzata
5 Orono
6 Mound-Westonka
7 Shakopee
8 Mankato East/Loyola
9 Hutchinson
10 Totino-Grace
11 North Metro
12 St. Louis Park
13 Faribault
14 Litchfield/Dassel-Cokato
15 Marshall
16 St Peter

Region 7
1 Anoka
2 Andover
3 White Bear Lake
4 Grand Rapids/Greenway
5 Chisago Lakes Area
6 C-E-C
7 Hibbing/Chisholm
8 Duluth
9 SB/TH/CC/Ely/NE Range
10 CambridgeIsanti/Mora/Pine City
11 Forest Lake
12 Princeton
13 St. Francis/North Branch
14 Moose Lake Area

Region 8
1 Breck
2 South St. Paul
3 Irondale
4 Centennial
5 Blake
6 Eastview
7 Cretin-Derham Hall
8 St. Paul United
9 Spring Lk Pk/St. Anth Vill
10 Mahtomedi
11 Minneapolis
12 Minnehaha
13 Holy Angels
14 St. Paul Blades


This is using all 120 teams. 4-14 team and 4-16 team brackets. I thought about having a play-in game or first round bye and having 15 per bracket but the ranks of teams (via KRACH) at the bottom of each bracket would be vastly different due to the ranking of the SW MN teams.

Travel was used as a guide but again if that is the main tool after the top 24 teams - the strength of each region is would be very skewed. One way to alleviate this in the 16 team brackets would be to have 2 play-in games - this way everyone plays in a 14 team bracket. Instead of BSM traveling to Windom and Eagan to Fairmont in Region 5 - you have Windom to Albert Lea, and Fairmont to Waseca. Still quite a bit of travel but at least you have I-90. I would think that you wouldn't have home teams hosting - most games would be at a neutral site.

I know its not anywhere near perfect but it was fun to think about - I did it a few weeks ago, prior to the end of the season.

KRACH Average Rank (Not Rating) Top 14 Teams per Region
Region 1 60.37 Weakest?
Region 2 55.64
Region 3 50.92 Strongest?
Region 4 55.42
Region 5 56.21
Region 6 57.85
Region 7 57.78
Region 8 54.07
ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

Looks good to me. :D
ghshockeyfan
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Post by ghshockeyfan »

It was interesting to read the articles in the PPress earlier this week about the Tiers on the boys side from the early 90's. Made me rethink this a little bit in fact. Interesting:

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_201 ... -two-tiers

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_201 ... state-boys
Rocketwrister
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Post by Rocketwrister »

This would be a GREAT idea!! Bring it back to 1 class tournament and seed top 64 teams; for girls and I'd say for the boys too...although lets admit it that would NEVER happen.
WB6162
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Post by WB6162 »

Are you kidding? How many tickets can you sell for the tourney games you have now?

Where do you think these games will be played?
luckyEPDad
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Post by luckyEPDad »

WB6162 wrote:Are you kidding? How many tickets can you sell for the tourney games you have now?

Where do you think these games will be played?
I would have the first three rounds played on the home ice of the higher seeded team. That provides a home ice advantage to protect the top seeds, and only half the teams traveling. Things wouldn't be much different than they are now, just a bit more travel in early games because they are based on record instead of geography.
sinbin
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Post by sinbin »

Conceptually makes sense and I think that logistics can be worked out - not going to make every single one of the 100+ teams happy, but I think the main benefit is to prevent power sections from having state ranked 1 vs. 4 or 2 vs. 3 play each other in sections. I can't predict the future, but you could very well have #1 and #2 (some combo of Benilde and Tonka) playing in section 6 again next season, with only one of them making it to state, for example. Those with knowledge of other sections could probably foresee similar scenarios elsewhere. And, those teams that currently make it to state each year because they play cupcake sections will actually have to work a little bit to advance. Just because these situations have gone on for ages doesn't mean that they can't be improved.
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