Cool. They can come to the seminar too if they'd like to learn about hockey-specific types of training.Outoftowner wrote: I agree about the training at 100%. Less then that and skill development, is minimal. If you can teach players to push past their comfort zone and can teach intensity, then you have a product. This is where I think parents mess up. When the parent's intensity is higher then the player's.
When my kids were little (mite) I had a take it or leave it attitude toward going to hockey. I would hear from other parents about them having to fight to get their little 4 year old in his hockey equipment or bribe him with McDonald's after practice to get him to want to go. I would ask my boys if they wanted to go to hockey and even give alternative activities we could be doing instead of going to practice. Then I was ok with the idea if they didn't want t go. When we went I'd ask if they were planning on trying their best... because we have other things we can be doing. They eventually developed ownership of their hockey and understood that it was their decision to go and therefore their responsibility to perform at their best.
Now they are older and still hold on to the NHL dream. We talk about the level of effort required to actually make it to the NHL. I leave it to them to put in the required effort (ownership of their dream). Occasionally, if their effort isn't their, I will remind them that it is their choice to play hockey and that we could just as easily be doing something else. That seems to motivate them, but really I still have somewhat of a take it or leave it attitude, yet try to facilitate opportunities for them as long as they take responsibility for their choice to play hockey and their desire to be good. I love the game, but I cant make them have a genuine love for hockey by forcing it on them. So I let them develop their own love and enjoy it when they do.
How to develop a great hockey player
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
-
Outoftowner
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:31 pm
Thanks for the invite Josh, but we will be in Alex for the peewee A state tourney. Maybe another time.joshual wrote:Cool. They can come to the seminar too if they'd like to learn about hockey-specific types of training.Outoftowner wrote: I agree about the training at 100%. Less then that and skill development, is minimal. If you can teach players to push past their comfort zone and can teach intensity, then you have a product. This is where I think parents mess up. When the parent's intensity is higher then the player's.
When my kids were little (mite) I had a take it or leave it attitude toward going to hockey. I would hear from other parents about them having to fight to get their little 4 year old in his hockey equipment or bribe him with McDonald's after practice to get him to want to go. I would ask my boys if they wanted to go to hockey and even give alternative activities we could be doing instead of going to practice. Then I was ok with the idea if they didn't want t go. When we went I'd ask if they were planning on trying their best... because we have other things we can be doing. They eventually developed ownership of their hockey and understood that it was their decision to go and therefore their responsibility to perform at their best.
Now they are older and still hold on to the NHL dream. We talk about the level of effort required to actually make it to the NHL. I leave it to them to put in the required effort (ownership of their dream). Occasionally, if their effort isn't their, I will remind them that it is their choice to play hockey and that we could just as easily be doing something else. That seems to motivate them, but really I still have somewhat of a take it or leave it attitude, yet try to facilitate opportunities for them as long as they take responsibility for their choice to play hockey and their desire to be good. I love the game, but I cant make them have a genuine love for hockey by forcing it on them. So I let them develop their own love and enjoy it when they do.
What year did you play for the Jags?
1. Athletic ceiling. Kid has to have a high athletic ceiling. Without that no amount of coaching, teaching, skill progression, development will do any good if the kid can't physically do what you are showing him/her.
2. Competitiveness. Some kids have it, some don't and its been my experience that you can't teach it. A kid has to hate losing more than anything. Not allowing someone to be better than you will always force you to push limits.
3. Environment. This has to do with coaching, training, and overall environment the kid is around. A kid that grows up supported both emotionally and financially will have a great advantage to those kids who get their but chewed for letting a guy around them or letting in 4 goals.
4. Drive. How many of us know the guy that "He could have went D1 had he committed to hockey"...the fact is, its really hard to commit your whole existence to one thing when you are 14-17 years old. Without drive, no amount of talent, support, coaching or AAA teams will do anything.
2. Competitiveness. Some kids have it, some don't and its been my experience that you can't teach it. A kid has to hate losing more than anything. Not allowing someone to be better than you will always force you to push limits.
3. Environment. This has to do with coaching, training, and overall environment the kid is around. A kid that grows up supported both emotionally and financially will have a great advantage to those kids who get their but chewed for letting a guy around them or letting in 4 goals.
4. Drive. How many of us know the guy that "He could have went D1 had he committed to hockey"...the fact is, its really hard to commit your whole existence to one thing when you are 14-17 years old. Without drive, no amount of talent, support, coaching or AAA teams will do anything.
-
black sheep
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:57 pm
What is the definition of a "great" hockey player?
I think for most MN kids playing HS Varsity hockey is the goal. BUT, is that a "great player", I'd say no in a majority of cases. I would say that to be a D1 player you need to be a "great" player/athlete regardless of sport.
So we are talking about developing a D1 level athlete?
Parents’ guide to develop a "great athlete":
1. Genetics = talent (physical + mental) - it is important to carefully evaluate your potential mate (biometric screenings, DNA testing, neurological exams etc...) to ensure the highest probability of genetic superiority. There is however great opportunity for error as most of this science is still theoretical, and it may take several tries with multiple mates to realize that you may or may not be carrying the right genetic code. And you might end up mating a dragon, which means you might end up taking one for the team.
2. Opportunity = training (quantity + quality) - it is important to provide the best opportunities for your athlete to train both physically and mentally to maximize their talents. Without continuous cycles of training to maintain core physical and mental strength there is no way to maximize the genetic superiority you have created. Again because there are so many variables, there is not a defined course or track, you constantly need to manage the burnout vs. under achievement track.
Summary = talent (physical + mental) + training (quantity + quality) = potential greatness
Ex. 200 talent (100 physical + 100 mental) + 200 training (100 quantity + 100 quality) = 400 potential
400 potential points = the most elite athlete possible
Use this formula honestly for your player and see where you end up.
Conclusion: your player will reach their potential greatness. Half of the formula requires natural talent, and half of the formula requires opportunities to maximize the natural talent. There are significant factors that have effects on both that may or may not be controllable.
Not every kid is going to be a “GREAT” athlete, it is just not possible, and that’s ok. Have fun and enjoy the game.
I think for most MN kids playing HS Varsity hockey is the goal. BUT, is that a "great player", I'd say no in a majority of cases. I would say that to be a D1 player you need to be a "great" player/athlete regardless of sport.
So we are talking about developing a D1 level athlete?
Parents’ guide to develop a "great athlete":
1. Genetics = talent (physical + mental) - it is important to carefully evaluate your potential mate (biometric screenings, DNA testing, neurological exams etc...) to ensure the highest probability of genetic superiority. There is however great opportunity for error as most of this science is still theoretical, and it may take several tries with multiple mates to realize that you may or may not be carrying the right genetic code. And you might end up mating a dragon, which means you might end up taking one for the team.
2. Opportunity = training (quantity + quality) - it is important to provide the best opportunities for your athlete to train both physically and mentally to maximize their talents. Without continuous cycles of training to maintain core physical and mental strength there is no way to maximize the genetic superiority you have created. Again because there are so many variables, there is not a defined course or track, you constantly need to manage the burnout vs. under achievement track.
Summary = talent (physical + mental) + training (quantity + quality) = potential greatness
Ex. 200 talent (100 physical + 100 mental) + 200 training (100 quantity + 100 quality) = 400 potential
400 potential points = the most elite athlete possible
Use this formula honestly for your player and see where you end up.
Conclusion: your player will reach their potential greatness. Half of the formula requires natural talent, and half of the formula requires opportunities to maximize the natural talent. There are significant factors that have effects on both that may or may not be controllable.
Not every kid is going to be a “GREAT” athlete, it is just not possible, and that’s ok. Have fun and enjoy the game.
-
silentbutdeadly3139
- Posts: 475
- Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:50 pm
I had 3 boys play hockey. 2 of the 3 played varsity and my oldest played college D1 on a full scholarship.
I am firmly convinced that the most important part of becoming a great hockey player is what you do when you are not playing hockey. Soccer and football make great hockey players IMO.
Don't waste your money on MN Made or expensive programs like that. My boys all went to a mom and pop summer program for $80 per week that included all day daycare. They got one hour of ice a day.
Then they worked hard on fitness/weight lifting and other sports.
I am firmly convinced that the most important part of becoming a great hockey player is what you do when you are not playing hockey. Soccer and football make great hockey players IMO.
Don't waste your money on MN Made or expensive programs like that. My boys all went to a mom and pop summer program for $80 per week that included all day daycare. They got one hour of ice a day.
Then they worked hard on fitness/weight lifting and other sports.
-
InigoMontoya
- Posts: 1716
- Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:36 pm
Josh, I'm sure you're a nice kid. You played HS hockey; I assume you did not play at Princeton, or you'd have mentioned it - I'm sure you're an athletic kid. I assume you went to Princeton, though it doesn't specifically say that above - I'm sure you're a smart kid.InigoMontoya: do you still, after reading the posts that I've written, think the two conclusions you came to were accurate? I don't see how you could, but if you do, let me know what I said made you feel this way and I can clarify.
So, my two cents: you're a smart kid (22?) that misses hockey.
However,
If you didn't play D1 hockey, you can't share that experience.
If you haven't had kids, you can't share that experience.
Germany? Did they become a hockey powerhouse while I was taking a nap?
I'm sure you absorbed a lot during all your book learning, and it will help you tremendously some day, but most of the lawyers and accountants on this forum have read more about hockey, about coaching, and about child development than you have.
I hope you keep at it and change the face of Minnesota Hockey.
In the meantime, you've got a lot more to learn than you have to teach.
This is a classic example of "many ways to skin a cat". This is what worked the best for your kids. That is great. I know of many many kids that are very successful in the Div 1, Whl, Ohl, and NHL that played summer hockey religiously. When you say "don't waste your money on MN Made" are you saying your way is the only way? Are you saying that summer hockey serves no purpose at all? My son develops more in the summer than he does in the winter. My son absolultely loves every minute he spends with his summer teammates. My son loves travelling to the tournaments. My family loves summer hockey! It is something that we all do together. We put lots of time in at the rinks, on the road, at hotels, but guess what, we are doing it together and my son is improving at hockey. What a great bonus! So long as my child wants to play summer hockey, we are in!! Oh and he also plays baseball and soccer. Loves to be at the lake and mountain bikes. Sure sounds like i am wasting my money on expensive summer programs! lolWB6162 wrote:I had 3 boys play hockey. 2 of the 3 played varsity and my oldest played college D1 on a full scholarship.
I am firmly convinced that the most important part of becoming a great hockey player is what you do when you are not playing hockey. Soccer and football make great hockey players IMO.
Don't waste your money on MN Made or expensive programs like that. My boys all went to a mom and pop summer program for $80 per week that included all day daycare. They got one hour of ice a day.
Then they worked hard on fitness/weight lifting and other sports.
I was recruited to play D1 hockey but got hurt when I came out and ended up in the operating room too many times so I had to stop. I played in the USHL for a year prior. But you are right that I never actually played D1 hockey, but I was recruited and did commit to play. Regardless, that experience wouldn't validate or invalidate any comments I make.InigoMontoya wrote:Josh, I'm sure you're a nice kid. You played HS hockey; I assume you did not play at Princeton, or you'd have mentioned it - I'm sure you're an athletic kid. I assume you went to Princeton, though it doesn't specifically say that above - I'm sure you're a smart kid.InigoMontoya: do you still, after reading the posts that I've written, think the two conclusions you came to were accurate? I don't see how you could, but if you do, let me know what I said made you feel this way and I can clarify.
So, my two cents: you're a smart kid (22?) that misses hockey.
However,
If you didn't play D1 hockey, you can't share that experience.
If you haven't had kids, you can't share that experience.
Germany? Did they become a hockey powerhouse while I was taking a nap?
I'm sure you absorbed a lot during all your book learning, and it will help you tremendously some day, but most of the lawyers and accountants on this forum have read more about hockey, about coaching, and about child development than you have.
I hope you keep at it and change the face of Minnesota Hockey.
In the meantime, you've got a lot more to learn than you have to teach.
Now, I don't have kids, but I've run hockey training camps for over 8 years now. I started working with hockey kids during summer camps when I was 14/15 years old. I've had a lot of experience relative to my age. In terms of reading, I'm used to 1,000 to 1,500 a week for my courses...I read a lot and I'd bet there are fewer people on this forum that have read more on the topic than myself than you might suspect.
The reason I cited the German study was simply to show that at the seminar I'll be introducing research that is not available unless you have subscriptions to these journals. The study was done with Olympic athletes (not exclusively hockey players).I've done lots of reading and actually have written a lot about these topics. I'm working to complete a book on it right now.
In the end, I find your statement that I have a lot to learn very true. That, however, doesn't discount my arguments. I approach these debates with conviction, but also an open-mind. That's the best way, in my opinion, to find the truth.
Come to the seminar if you can!
-
The Jackwagon
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:30 pm
-
O-townClown
- Posts: 4422
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:22 pm
- Location: Typical homeboy from the O-Town
-
HOCKEYDRIVER
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:28 am
Are people or programs scared that this (so called) kid might know something new! And all the money they spent didn't get them a D1 player.
I don't know Josh. I've talked to him once on the phone. He seemed respectful and open minded. Josh maybe if you start drinking the orange kool-aid they wouldn't second guess each word you say.
I don't know Josh. I've talked to him once on the phone. He seemed respectful and open minded. Josh maybe if you start drinking the orange kool-aid they wouldn't second guess each word you say.
-
pondsnpipes
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:13 pm
What I've gathered from this thread:
1) People aren't as interested in this as they should be. A lot of programs succeed in Minnesota but a whole lot also fail at developing solid hockey players; why do they fail? Why is Jefferson failing? I bet Josh has some insight into that and it might be useful.
2) People don't actually know who Josh is. He's obviously qualified: 4th All-Time Leading Point Holder at Bloomington Jefferson, Princeton commit (stopped by injury) and former USHL player, and played in the State Tournament in 2005 and was the leading point holder for the tourney that year as a Sophomore. In addition, as he's mentioned, he's bright enough to go to Princeton, own a business, and do the research necessary on the subject.
3) Some parents on this forum are severely misguided. While you might want your kid to be an all-star, it won't matter if your kid doesn't want it; an intense parent can often act as a barrier to becoming a good hockey player. It happened to a lot of my friends.
1) People aren't as interested in this as they should be. A lot of programs succeed in Minnesota but a whole lot also fail at developing solid hockey players; why do they fail? Why is Jefferson failing? I bet Josh has some insight into that and it might be useful.
2) People don't actually know who Josh is. He's obviously qualified: 4th All-Time Leading Point Holder at Bloomington Jefferson, Princeton commit (stopped by injury) and former USHL player, and played in the State Tournament in 2005 and was the leading point holder for the tourney that year as a Sophomore. In addition, as he's mentioned, he's bright enough to go to Princeton, own a business, and do the research necessary on the subject.
3) Some parents on this forum are severely misguided. While you might want your kid to be an all-star, it won't matter if your kid doesn't want it; an intense parent can often act as a barrier to becoming a good hockey player. It happened to a lot of my friends.
-
Larry Blackstone
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:14 am
Josh
I have seen you work with the kids up at the BIG last summer. You looked like a great coach, working the boys hard on ice and off, the boys respected you, you were having fun, the boys looked like they were having fun and were absorbing what you were teaching them. All the while getting very good instruction.
I'd highly recommend your summer camp to any boy thinking about being a serious hockey player. Bringing Sats in to speak to the kids and parents was pretty neat too.
Deleted rest....
I have seen you work with the kids up at the BIG last summer. You looked like a great coach, working the boys hard on ice and off, the boys respected you, you were having fun, the boys looked like they were having fun and were absorbing what you were teaching them. All the while getting very good instruction.
I'd highly recommend your summer camp to any boy thinking about being a serious hockey player. Bringing Sats in to speak to the kids and parents was pretty neat too.
Deleted rest....
Last edited by Larry Blackstone on Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
jBlaze3000
- Posts: 207
- Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:25 pm
A lot of people on this board just like to stir the pot because they have nothing better to do. Rather than offer a rational counter argument like an adult they'll just attack the OP.
The most important factor for long term success is having a passionate athlete. Without it nothing else matters. I also believe that parents can help grow that passion in their children and it's not necessarily something you are "born with".
The most important factor for long term success is having a passionate athlete. Without it nothing else matters. I also believe that parents can help grow that passion in their children and it's not necessarily something you are "born with".
Larry: thanks for the kind words. I appreciate them.
In terms of what I think is the number #1 ingredient, I'd say passion like you. Although I also agree that parents are important. Just as they are in education. Parents need to be involved and support their children. Ironically, parents seem to over-support their kids in sports and under-support them in school. Can you imagine what would happen if parents took academics as seriously as athletics? I can only imagine the protests, city council meetings, etc that would occur. Even in suburban and so-called "great" schools, this would probably occur because parents demand the very best...that is, at least in hockey.
Now, being passionate about the game is just a fundamental ingredient. It's not how you develop a great hockey player though. SO my seminar is on how to develop a great hockey player in terms of the training that should be done. I'll be going over what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. Unfortunately, many parents wouldn't know what hockey specific training was if it was right in front of them. I want to make sure they understand the science better. For example, how do you become a quicker athlete? OR a better skater? Do you skate a bunch? Maybe. Practice can make a player better, but it can also make him or her worse...so there's a lot to go over.
If you'd like to talk about it more, just send me a private message with your phone number and I'll give you a call sometime.
In terms of what I think is the number #1 ingredient, I'd say passion like you. Although I also agree that parents are important. Just as they are in education. Parents need to be involved and support their children. Ironically, parents seem to over-support their kids in sports and under-support them in school. Can you imagine what would happen if parents took academics as seriously as athletics? I can only imagine the protests, city council meetings, etc that would occur. Even in suburban and so-called "great" schools, this would probably occur because parents demand the very best...that is, at least in hockey.
Now, being passionate about the game is just a fundamental ingredient. It's not how you develop a great hockey player though. SO my seminar is on how to develop a great hockey player in terms of the training that should be done. I'll be going over what to do, when to do it, and how to do it. Unfortunately, many parents wouldn't know what hockey specific training was if it was right in front of them. I want to make sure they understand the science better. For example, how do you become a quicker athlete? OR a better skater? Do you skate a bunch? Maybe. Practice can make a player better, but it can also make him or her worse...so there's a lot to go over.
If you'd like to talk about it more, just send me a private message with your phone number and I'll give you a call sometime.
-
BarDown777
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:43 pm
I have been able to train with Josh and I would say his program is very good. Last season Jefferson trained with the school's program, and kids showed up to the first day and didn't come after that. This last season Jefferson was not as strong physically as other teams because they did not train while others did. While Josh was training the Jags people were showing up everyday throughout the whole program and this shows that people respect him and that he knows what he is doing.pondsnpipes wrote:What I've gathered from this thread:
1) People aren't as interested in this as they should be. A lot of programs succeed in Minnesota but a whole lot also fail at developing solid hockey players; why do they fail? Why is Jefferson failing? I bet Josh has some insight into that and it might be useful.
2) People don't actually know who Josh is. He's obviously qualified: 4th All-Time Leading Point Holder at Bloomington Jefferson, Princeton commit (stopped by injury) and former USHL player, and played in the State Tournament in 2005 and was the leading point holder for the tourney that year as a Sophomore. In addition, as he's mentioned, he's bright enough to go to Princeton, own a business, and do the research necessary on the subject.
3) Some parents on this forum are severely misguided. While you might want your kid to be an all-star, it won't matter if your kid doesn't want it; an intense parent can often act as a barrier to becoming a good hockey player. It happened to a lot of my friends.
As to Jefferson failing, the past couple years the players have not come through the Jefferson youth program. Almost half of the team's players last season were from Kennedy and they came during bantams. It makes it harder to compete against teams with kids who have been playing since they were mites.
-
Outoftowner
- Posts: 86
- Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:31 pm
Josh- I find your enthusiasm and open-minded attitude very inviting.
Any information that will possibly HELP my child reach his full potential (wherever that leads) without killing his passion is welcome.
Although I will be in Alex on Saturday, I'd be interested in your seminar.
Will you be doing another at a later date this spring?
Any information that will possibly HELP my child reach his full potential (wherever that leads) without killing his passion is welcome.
Although I will be in Alex on Saturday, I'd be interested in your seminar.
Will you be doing another at a later date this spring?
I think what the OP is trying to say is, be a committed parent but not a parent that needs to be committed. In other words, don't push your kid to the point of burning him out. I have three boys, a bantam, pw, and ice mite. With the two older, I have one whose first love is baseball. I would love to push him in summer hockey because I think he has great potential. But if I do, I know it will be detrimental to his hockey development. He will start to dread hockey season and I think it might become counterproductive to push it. He usually does a camp in August and shoots some pucks and stickhandles some throughout the summer in the driveway. As it is, he looks forward to the start of hockey season.
My second boy loves hockey #1. He loves to play hockey all year and will work on it throughout the summer. My role as parent to this child is to know I should be limiting him somewhat so that he doesn't burn out. I've seen his energy level decline at times during the winter season. I think I am further ahead limiting him some during summer even though he is enthusiastic for hockey, so that he stays enthusiastic at more important times of the year. Plus I think he needs to play other sports to increase his athleticism.
The third one I'm still trying to figure out.
My second boy loves hockey #1. He loves to play hockey all year and will work on it throughout the summer. My role as parent to this child is to know I should be limiting him somewhat so that he doesn't burn out. I've seen his energy level decline at times during the winter season. I think I am further ahead limiting him some during summer even though he is enthusiastic for hockey, so that he stays enthusiastic at more important times of the year. Plus I think he needs to play other sports to increase his athleticism.
The third one I'm still trying to figure out.
-
Old_and_Slow
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:46 pm
I think the only way to answer this question is to define what you consider a "great" hockey player. To make it out of local hockey into a top flight college or Jr. program, in addition to everything else, you're going to need genetics on your side as well. Look at the size of the "great" players in college and pro hockey, and you'll see a trend that can't be fixed with a lifetime of skating or passion.