The sky is falling?

BBB · Post by **BBB** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:53 pm

ONE good example. put that right next to the Parise and Suter examples and that is one amazing argument you have going!

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:33 pm

nice retort O-town......."right in the mind coach"

keepyourheadup · Post by **keepyourheadup** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:34 pm

You could use Hopkins grad Jim Korn as well. Similar story.

xy · Post by xy » Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:34 pm

To give an idea of where the NHL was in the early 80s, and how far it's come, Jim Korn and his fists of fury actually played defense for a few seasons before being moved up to wing, where his "skills" were probably a better fit.

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:33 pm

If it wasn't for fighting konopka wouldn't be in the league. Agreed? At some point fighting will be eliminated. Just speculation.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:42 pm

BBB wrote:ONE good example. put that right next to the Parise and Suter examples and that is one amazing argument you have going!

B, there are opinions and facts.

It is a FACT that the Major Junior route and NCAA hockey are mutually exclusive. Play Junior and you subsequently cannot play NCAA. (Yes, I'm aware you can leave NCAA for Junior.)

It is my OPINION that is not a good tradeoff.

There are multiple paths to the NHL. And let's be honest, that's what we're talking about. Making a choice at age 16 or 17 to play in the WHL isn't about the big crowds and bright lights of that level.

You can spin it however you want, you'll never be able to offer up opinions that change the core fact - pursuing Major Junior hockey in Canadian leagues limits a player's options when compared to playing in the USHL.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:41 pm

BBB wrote:so can they give out full rides to places like the U of M like the post above states?

B, there were some questions about the standard education package. Here is an article from Deadspin that echoes same points I have made, mainly that it sounds nice when mentioned by CHL teams...as long as you don't start asking questions about specifics.

Junior Hockey Team Sues Michigan Student Paper For Defamation

Barry Petchesky

There's a fascinating story brewing in Ann Arbor and Kitchener, fascinating if you're a follower of junior hockey or student journalism, and hell, even if you're not. It concerns where ninth overall draft pick Jacob Trouba will be playing hockey this fall, and a defamation lawsuit against the Michigan student newspaper that reported it.

Trouba, who was taken by the Winnipeg Jets last month, was selected in the 2010 OHL Draft by the Kitchener Rangers. Just out of high school, Trouba now has a choice ahead of him: play college hockey for the Michigan Wolverines, or go to the OHL and make some money, but forfeit his NCAA eligibility. What an OHL team would normally do in this case is offer something called an education package: reimbursement of tuition, book, and room and board at any university once the player's OHL career is over. The problem with such packages is that they expire just 18 months after leaving the OHL team, and few players take advantage of them, because they're too busy playing hockey in the NHL or elsewhere, or just have no interest in attending college if they're not able to play.

Last week, The Michigan Daily reported, via two OHL sources, that Kitchener had offered Trouba $200,000—in cash, not as an education package—to pull out of his Michigan commitment and come play for the Rangers. Kitchener strongly denied the story, and demanded that the Daily retract the story and issue a formal apology. Their Monday deadline passed, and today Kitchener filed a defamation lawsuit in Ontario court against the Daily, seeking $1 million in damages.

What follows from here should be interesting. I hope an international paper, even a student paper, isn't compelled to reveal its sources. At the same time, a student paper (rightly or wrongly) doesn't get the same benefit of the doubt as a professional outlet. (For what it's worth, Trouba has affirmed his intentions to attend Michigan.) While I'm not up on Canadian libel law, presumably the burden is still on the plaintiff here. So, thorny issues. It's not a good look to sue a student newspaper, but if the story is actually false, and you're not using court as a scare tactic, a lawsuit is the last and best recourse.

==

The article also cited this article, found at NCAA.org:

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/DI_Amateurism_C ... .%2013.pdf

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:54 am

Interesting that a kid like Bjustead would stay in collage if it were such a "bad" way to get to the NHL.

rudy · Post by **rudy** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:03 am

Could the prospect of a lockout this season have been at least a partial factor?

mulefarm · Post by **mulefarm** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:15 am

old goalie85 wrote:Interesting that a kid like Bjustead would stay in collage if it were such a "bad" way to get to the NHL.

But was it the best decsion?

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:28 am

Time will tell. Sounds like he will leave w/degree.[not a bad thing] He certainly has experienced people aroung him.[Uncle] Be fun to watch the Gophs next year.

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:19 am

mulefarm wrote:
old goalie85 wrote:Interesting that a kid like Bjustead would stay in collage if it were such a "bad" way to get to the NHL.
But was it the best decsion?

Everybody is going to have an opinion on what is "best" but the reality is the player is in the best spot to judge what is best for himself and his life. Personally, unless there are major financial worries in the family, I think it is good to be patient. I think Brock Nelson should have stayed at UND this year but I can't blame him for cashing in either.

BBB · Post by **BBB** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:04 pm

If anyone could show me cases of where the Major Junior (and no college) thing worked out I'd reverse my course.

Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Bobby Orr

Everybody is going to have an opinion on what is "best" but the reality is the player is in the best spot to judge what is best for himself and his life.

What about the Kid from Rogers? Earlier you stated that MN kids shouldn't go the CHL route. What if he didn't have much ambition to play college hockey and thought the CHL was the "best" route for himself?

Interesting that a kid like Bjustead would stay in collage if it were such a "bad" way to get to the NHL.

I don't recall (but this thread is getting long) anyone calling the NCAA a bad option. I think that people are saying the CHL is a good path to take to get the the NHL and it's proven every year at the draft, all-star game, Stanley Cup, etc. Other than that it's Bjugstad and college...What, were you a goalie or something?

The problem with such packages is that they expire just 18 months after leaving the OHL team, and few players take advantage of them, because they're too busy playing hockey in the NHL or elsewhere

The author is lucky he added 'elsewhere' or that would be the quote of the year.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:43 pm

BBB wrote:
If anyone could show me cases of where the Major Junior (and no college) thing worked out I'd reverse my course.
Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Bobby Orr

B:

So you are saying Bobby Orr, Mario Lemieux, and Wayne Gretzky needed Major Junior hockey to make the NHL? Wow, that's unreal to me. The first two were in the NHL at age 18 and the last was in the WHA at age 17. In other words, before the ages where they would play NCAA hockey anyway. Lemieux was the 1st overall pick, and Gretzky would have been as well had he not circumvented the draft route to pro hockey a year early. I think Orr was before there was a draft. These guys are the best players of their era, and that was known when they were teenagers.

When the next player of his generation (like a Lindros or whoever) comes down the pike, he'll still have a long NHL career if he chooses BCHL (like Brett Hull), the NTDP (like Patrick Kane), or NCAA (like Martin St. Louis).

It is pointless to discuss this with you since you seem to see Canadian Major Junior leagues (many teams in the U.S. I know) as the only "best" path to professional success. Me - and many others - see multiple proven paths and don't think the tradeoff (NCAA eligibility for what?) is a fair deal. You don't have to agree with me/others, but you won't have this side of the fence agreeing with you when you completely ignore the obvious - your chances of making the NHL have not proven to increase by playing CHL and your chances of making it in life increase the more education you have.

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:36 am

BBB wrote:What about the Kid from Rogers? Earlier you stated that MN kids shouldn't go the CHL route. What if he didn't have much ambition to play college hockey and thought the CHL was the "best" route for himself?

I will stand by my comments on NCAA over the CHL. Unless a kid is academically weak or a NHL shoo in by age 20, I don't think the CHL is worth it (especially for a MN kid). No need to throw away your NCAA eligibility at such a young age.

But it is his decision to make and live with. If he thinks that is the right move, best of luck to him on it. I wouldn't advise most MN kids to follow suit though. Not worth it.

mulefarm · Post by **mulefarm** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:22 am

O town, I believe that the Sauer boys from St. Cloud went the major junior route along with Peter Mueller. Not saying I disagree with your opinion, but it has worked out for them.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:52 pm

Mule, we have grossly different thoughts on having things "work out" then.

Peter Mueller was a top pick in the NHL Draft. Kinda different than leaving for CHL at age 16, don't ya' think? Two years with the NTDP and needed a place to play for a year before the draft. Same thing as Seth Jones basically. Nobody really argues against that, do they? Lock to be a first rounder. Making the decision just before the Draft. He had other choices, but I wouldn't throw him in the discussion with the skates-and-a-dream kids.

So things have worked out great for the Sauers? They could have played in the NHL anyway. I think Kurt is out of the league by age 28 and Mike has not played since a serious concussion sustained at age 24. Brother Kent started at UMD and left for the CHL. I don't know how much was due to them having a poor showing in the WCHA that year.

CHL is not the only path. J.T. Brown went the USHL route, played two years at UMD, and can probably complete his degree without too much difficulty when he playing days wind down.

As I've said before, I don't care where these kids play. If we have to deal with this in my household there will be plenty of guidance on the benefits of keeping one's options open. Committing to play in the CHL at age 16 or 17 doesn't really to that.

mngopherfan · Post by **mngopherfan** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:56 pm

O-townClown wrote:Mule, we have grossly different thoughts on having things "work out" then.

Peter Mueller was a top pick in the NHL Draft. Kinda different than leaving for CHL at age 16, don't ya' think? Two years with the NTDP and needed a place to play for a year before the draft. Same thing as Seth Jones basically. Nobody really argues against that, do they? Lock to be a first rounder. Making the decision just before the Draft. He had other choices, but I wouldn't throw him in the discussion with the skates-and-a-dream kids.

So things have worked out great for the Sauers? They could have played in the NHL anyway. I think Kurt is out of the league by age 28 and Mike has not played since a serious concussion sustained at age 24. Brother Kent started at UMD and left for the CHL. I don't know how much was due to them having a poor showing in the WCHA that year.

CHL is not the only path. J.T. Brown went the USHL route, played two years at UMD, and can probably complete his degree without too much difficulty when he playing days wind down.

As I've said before, I don't care where these kids play. If we have to deal with this in my household there will be plenty of guidance on the benefits of keeping one's options open. Committing to play in the CHL at age 16 or 17 doesn't really to that.

At the same time, i don't think you get as much out of the CHL if you're a rookie at 19 playing against kids younger than yourself. If you're going to go, go young and take full advantage of playing against older kids. This is why it's such a tough decision, in my opinion...But to each their own...

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:06 pm

Gopher Blog wrote:I will stand by my comments on NCAA over the CHL. Unless a kid is academically weak or a NHL shoo in by age 20, I don't think the CHL is worth it (especially for a MN kid).

And that's where the problem ultimately lies... how many kids delude themselves into thinking they are (or will be) NHL shoo-ins by the time they're 20? I think the answer is: too many.

mulefarm · Post by **mulefarm** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:02 pm

O town, I really don't know the background on the Sauer boys but to say they would have played in the nhl anyways makes me wonder. Were they 1-2 round draft choices, were they invited to NDTP? If their goal was to make the nhl, I would say it worked out for them. I don't understand your comments on Mueller, he decided to play majors and was in the nhl at 19 or 20, how is that not working out?

BBB · Post by **BBB** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:20 pm

So if guys like the Sauers and Mueller have concussions 200-300 games into an NHL career and things don't 'work out' you can attribute that to the path they took to get there? Or is it that they don't have 1-2 years of school under their belt like Brown from UMD? I think Mueller just signed and 1 or both of the Sauers will probably be back playing if I had to guess.
Is there any sort of disability for players who have careers cut short due to concussions? The older Sauer looks like he is only 2 seasons away from a full NHL pension.
Patrick Kane: Was widely considered a 1-2 pick along with JVR but he closed out his options and opted for the CHL at age 17.
Ok, O-Clown, Gretzky et al were bad examples. What about the Wild's own Zenon Kenopka? Jordan Nolan just won a cup after being an average OHL player and a 7th rd pick (The Gophers had a kid named Jordan go in the first rd that year and there was even talk early that year of him challenging Tavares for the the first spot. Otherwise many people felt he was a top 5 or 10 pick at the worst. He is putting together a decent AHL career.)

observer · Post by **observer** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:30 pm

I'll add that the USHL is gaining on the CHL anyways. Didn't the USHL all-star team win 2-3 games against the CHL All-Star teams (Team Canada) in a fall tourney? I know the CHL had 2-3 teams but the USHL did beat them.

O-townClown · Post by **O-townClown** » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:37 pm

B, let me know with O, Q, or Western team plays on and I'll be sure to wish him all the best. As I've said, it isn't for me. You act as though I've said you can't make the NHL from the CHL, which is preposterous. It just isn't worth it for a kid to give up there NCAA eligibility at age 16-17 when other good paths exist.

Of course, if all you have in life is ice and a puck there's not any worry. Bill Baker is an orthopaedic surgeon I think. Don't know that he'd be if he had to start advanced education at an older age.

To each their own.

OnFrozenPond · Post by **OnFrozenPond** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 2:46 pm

Interesting article regarding the CHL and scholarships...

http://hockeyfamilyadvisor.com/2012/07/02/

scorekeeper · Post by **scorekeeper** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:41 pm

OnFrozenPond wrote:Interesting article regarding the CHL and scholarships...

http://hockeyfamilyadvisor.com/2012/07/02/

That's the most innacurate misrepresentation of facts I've ever read. Not a great wayvto earn credibly for a so-called "advisor". Seems like he is the one who needs the advice

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The sky is falling?

bjugstad