News out of District 6

Trout · Post by **Trout** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:43 pm

[quote="old goalie85"]The D2 meeting is next week. I know we have the #'s and goalies for five teams @ pee-wees/ 4 bantams. No way we can go AA/A/B1/B2. Talent says AA[this is a reach] B1 and 2 C teams @ bantams. I guess we will know more next week.[/quote]

It will be interesting to see how it plays out in D2. I am sure WBL and Stillwater will get pressure to go AA/A and are probably big enough to do so. Neither could field equal AA and expect to compete so I am sure if they do they do the Edina version (AA first 15 skaters /A second 15 skaters)

The rest will be very interesting with a significant number of small programs that often don't have strong A teams (NSP doesn't even have an A team at some levels) that have AA high school teams. Then there is Mahtomedi who tends to play up with the the larger associations at some levels, they may try to opt up, Highland as well has had some significant variability at each level as well...

Any insights or thoughts there OG? Any rumors out there as to where these schools are leaning?

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:31 pm

Bluewhitefan wrote:
DumpandChase1 wrote:Just want to set the record straight and give you people the facts. D6 is not preventing any AA team from playing any A team in the district. They are setting up district play so the the AA teams play the other AA teams and the A teams play the A teams. This is so teams will play teams of equal ability and avoid so of the blow out games that don't do either team any good.
If a top A team wants to play a AA team, they are free to set up a scrimmage.
Correct. Also, any A team can (and probably will) play AA teams in tournaments throughout the year. EP is not separating AA from A classes for their Thanksgiving tournament as far as I know. Edina's holiday tournament will have separate AA and A classes. There may be others as well. D6 is probably the only district with enough AA and A teams to allow for splitting the league season.

So we can expect the likes of the Edina A team playing Wayzata's AA in an Eden Prairie type tournament? A teams CAN'T play AA teams in District 6 games, but can in outside tournaments? This will NEVER happen!

What is/was the purpose of the AA/A concept? I thought it was about getting more teams playing at an A level... It's becoming obvious that they're just trying to turn A into a huge B-1.

To those that think A is actually still A.

The AA sweater will be where it's at and all the more craved(player movement) by the kids that don't have one.

Grab some popcorn and watch the circus this Winter...

D3 Fan · Post by **D3 Fan** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:51 pm

The notion of all the potential problems when the AA team plays the A team from the same association, isn't any different than when the upper B1 team from OMGHA or Wayzata played the other (lower) B1 teams.

Sure there might be an upset every now an then, sure a player on the lower team may really improve during the year and eventually be out-skating some of the kids on the upper team, sure the kids on the lower team might really play hard against the team they 'weren't good enough for during tryouts', but so what?

DumpandChase1 · Post by **DumpandChase1** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:06 pm

Bo, my guess is that your example will not happen. I would think that Edina and other associations that field both AA and A teams will put the A teams in tournaments that will not have the top AA teams, but yes it could happen. Also, D6 AA teams can play D6 A teams in a scrimmage, they just wont play in league games.

pucker88 · Post by **pucker88** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:24 pm

AA/A/B1/B2/B3/B4/C/D/E....just a letter, thats it. Will Edina/Wayzata/EP/PL play AA or A? Does it really matter? By the time they get to high school, it's just one team. What it actually might produce..... a better Chaska/Chanhassen team, a better team in Plymouth, Oseeo and Maple Grove actually split up, better Armstrong/Cooper teams, a better Shakopee team, AHA ,Benilde, Providence Academy, Holy Family...????????

Remember the days when teams such as Warroad and Roseau came to the St. Paul Civic Center and competed with the likes of Edina, Jefferson, Kennedy, Burnsville.....etc.

I understand that everyone wants a fair slate, but shouldn't we as parents/coaches just let them play and learn the game. Even if it is tough competition. To be the best, you have to play the best.

I am in D6, and welcome competition. We have had our butts handed to us by the teams mentioned...more than once, but we put our skates on the next day for practice, because of the game.

I'm not bustin' any chops, but Edina,Wayzata,EP will have more players due to economy and/or demographics. The only way to really balance out the entire state of hockey in MN and to grow is to have everyone pay for the smaller organizations to compete. Look where that has gotten our govt.

just thoughts........

Napalm187 · Post by **Napalm187** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:53 pm

The whole thing stinks. Every decision that is made out of MN hockey seems to be a gigantic mistake. They are just making the brand of hockey coming out of here weaker every year, with the kids being hurt the most because of the emphasis on making everyone happy.

Why do they have to make such simple things, so complicated?

Why not just keep it A, B1, B2, C?

Why set us behind Michigan, New York, Ontario, BC, Sask, etc. by having no checking in pee wee's? Maybe they should've gotten down to the more root cause of the problem...quality refs. Having refs that calls game consistently, and to the letter of the law without regards to the scoreboard is very rare. Why not do everything in your power to get the ref standards higher? Call the game like an NHL ref, but w/o the bias to score, late-game swallowing of whistles, etc. Call it as you see it!

Our kids born in the first decade of this century are going to be hurt nationally because of the same kind of mom's that came up with the Volstead act! Mn hockey needs to wisen up because they are ruining the integrity of the state of hockey. Maybe they need to exercise more common sense, and not listen to every focus group and study.

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:13 pm

Napalm187 wrote: Why set us behind Michigan, New York, Ontario, BC, Sask, etc. by having no checking in pee wee's?

How is having no checking in PW setting us behind other places that have no checking in peewees?
I hear that Calgary hockey is going PW no check this year. I guess that means they're going to be suffering compared to Michigan and New York, too.

Napalm187 · Post by **Napalm187** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:46 pm

The only province that they have no checking in pee wees in Canada is Quebec. Do you think kids that were not allowed to tackle in Wayzata in 6-8 grades would be behind kids in EP that were allowed to tackle in football by the time they got to HS?

Why don't we safeguard every sport and have no tackling in football till HS, make wearing protective facemasks over every batting helmet mandatory, make it a flagarant foul every time for every drive to the basket until college, wear helmets on the golf course....etc.

If you don't want your kid to play hockey and play in a rough sport, then don't.

I just hate it that MN hockey has decided to take that power and use it for all the wrong reasons to appease all the concussion chatter. If you don't want your kid to ever get injured, do not have them play sports. Checking is part of the game. A big part of the game, that we are not teaching correctly because few know how to teach it, and fewer still know how to implement it correctly within the rules.

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:05 pm

Napalm187 wrote:The only province that they have no checking in pee wees in Canada is Quebec. Do you think kids that were not allowed to tackle in Wayzata in 6-8 grades would be behind kids in EP that were allowed to tackle in football by the time they got to HS?

Why don't we safeguard every sport and have no tackling in football till HS, make wearing protective facemasks over every batting helmet mandatory, make it a flagarant foul every time for every drive to the basket until college, wear helmets on the golf course....etc.

If you don't want your kid to play hockey and play in a rough sport, then don't.

I just hate it that MN hockey has decided to take that power and use it for all the wrong reasons to appease all the concussion chatter. If you don't want your kid to ever get injured, do not have them play sports. Checking is part of the game. A big part of the game, that we are not teaching correctly because few know how to teach it, and fewer still know how to implement it correctly within the rules.

Too funny.

offside14 · Post by **offside14** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:53 am

Totally agree napalm.

DrGaf · Post by **DrGaf** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:58 am

Napalm187 wrote:The only province that they have no checking in pee wees in Canada is Quebec. Do you think kids that were not allowed to tackle in Wayzata in 6-8 grades would be behind kids in EP that were allowed to tackle in football by the time they got to HS?

Why don't we safeguard every sport and have no tackling in football till HS, make wearing protective facemasks over every batting helmet mandatory, make it a flagarant foul every time for every drive to the basket until college, wear helmets on the golf course....etc.

If you don't want your kid to play hockey and play in a rough sport, then don't.

I just hate it that MN hockey has decided to take that power and use it for all the wrong reasons to appease all the concussion chatter. If you don't want your kid to ever get injured, do not have them play sports. Checking is part of the game. A big part of the game, that we are not teaching correctly because few know how to teach it, and fewer still know how to implement it correctly within the rules.

RAWR! Rub some dirt on it ya' pansy AND GO GET ME THAT BALL!!!!

Bluewhitefan · Post by **Bluewhitefan** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:08 am

Napalm187 wrote:I just hate it that MN hockey has decided to take that power and use it for all the wrong reasons to appease all the concussion chatter. If you don't want your kid to ever get injured, do not have them play sports. Checking is part of the game. A big part of the game, that we are not teaching correctly because few know how to teach it, and fewer still know how to implement it correctly within the rules.

I might be inclined to agree with you if I could make sense of your argument. Are you saying we should allow checking at PWs because we don't have anyone that knows how to teach it? I don't see how that relates to the AA/A discussion.

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:54 am

This is a very simple fix. AA checking/AA no check/A checking/A no check/B1checking/B1 no check/ so on & so on!!! Of course we would have separate state tournys for each.

pucker88 · Post by **pucker88** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:17 pm

I hear for the 2013/2014 PW and Bantam tourney, they will be doing a fantasy football format and draft teams so it is fair. The only thing they haven't determined is how they will decide who gets to pick first....

Napalm187 · Post by **Napalm187** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:51 pm

My point was that we are taking shortcuts, by wrapping our kids in bubble wrap, instead of having a broad based curriculum to teach our kids checking and teaching them to do it properly. Their should be some universal way involved in the USA coaching certification to teach pee wee coaches proper checking techniques, have associations invest in getting big pads and other tools like they do in Toronto and devote multiple practice times to giving and taking a hit. How to properly turn your body in the corners to absorbing the hit right, how to rub out, open-ice hitting, how not to turn your back etc. We just need more tools and devotion to training and more dedicated refs that will call a game to the letter of the law, instead of letting biases and apathy get in the way of calling the game properly. Basically, getting coaches and associations more involved with teaching it, and refs better equipped to enforce and call the game consistently. Taking checking out at pee wees was a horribly knee-jerk reaction, when it takes a more dedicated effort by all within the hockey community to properly teach it.

Shinbone_News · Post by **Shinbone_News** » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:33 pm

Napalm187 wrote:My point was that we are taking shortcuts, by wrapping our kids in bubble wrap, instead of having a broad based curriculum to teach our kids checking and teaching them to do it properly. Their should be some universal way involved in the USA coaching certification to teach pee wee coaches proper checking techniques, have associations invest in getting big pads and other tools like they do in Toronto and devote multiple practice times to giving and taking a hit. How to properly turn your body in the corners to absorbing the hit right, how to rub out, open-ice hitting, how not to turn your back etc. We just need more tools and devotion to training and more dedicated refs that will call a game to the letter of the law, instead of letting biases and apathy get in the way of calling the game properly. Basically, getting coaches and associations more involved with teaching it, and refs better equipped to enforce and call the game consistently. Taking checking out at pee wees was a horribly knee-jerk reaction, when it takes a more dedicated effort by all within the hockey community to properly teach it.

This is such an easy criticism to make, and no way to actually "prove" any of it. In my experience, two things:

1) Youth refs are especially committed to calling games to the best of their ability, especially the more experienced ones that typically whistle the A and B games. True, younger refs tend to get easily intimidated by parents and coaches who typically harass them for the calls they DO make, less often for the ones they DON'T make. Either way, it's a tough job and parents/coaches should learn how to deal with refs more respectfully and constructively.
2) USA Hockey has more information and coaching resources than anyone EVER gives them credit for. The change in checking was not just "no more checking in PeeWee." It also happened to include a comprehensive new approach to teaching proper body contact from the Squirt level on up. Body checking is just the last stage of a five-part contact curriculum. It's there for those who want to find it. If USA Hockey were any more iron-fisted about pushing this material, we'd no doubt accuse them of being tyrants and fascists.

I agree that bad or stubborn coaches are a drag, as are incompetent refs -- but they are the exception, not the rule. Those who take USAHockey's CEP process seriously have tons of resources at their disposal to teach kids how to play the game safely and properly. I'm no stooge for USAH, but c'mon -- give them a little credit. By far the best-run and most resource-rich NGO of any sporting authority, especially when it comes to coaching education.

Like others always say, "Just enforce the rules as they written in the book." Well, just teach proper body contact the way the rulebook (and CEP materials) says.

icehornet · Post by **icehornet** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:00 am

Shinbone_News wrote: This is such an easy criticism to make, and no way to actually "prove" any of it. In my experience, two things:

1) Youth refs are especially committed to calling games to the best of their ability, especially the more experienced ones that typically whistle the A and B games. True, younger refs tend to get easily intimidated by parents and coaches who typically harass them for the calls they DO make, less often for the ones they DON'T make. Either way, it's a tough job and parents/coaches should learn how to deal with refs more respectfully and constructively.
2) USA Hockey has more information and coaching resources than anyone EVER gives them credit for. The change in checking was not just "no more checking in PeeWee." It also happened to include a comprehensive new approach to teaching proper body contact from the Squirt level on up. Body checking is just the last stage of a five-part contact curriculum. It's there for those who want to find it. If USA Hockey were any more iron-fisted about pushing this material, we'd no doubt accuse them of being tyrants and fascists.

I agree that bad or stubborn coaches are a drag, as are incompetent refs -- but they are the exception, not the rule. Those who take USAHockey's CEP process seriously have tons of resources at their disposal to teach kids how to play the game safely and properly. I'm no stooge for USAH, but c'mon -- give them a little credit. By far the best-run and most resource-rich NGO of any sporting authority, especially when it comes to coaching education.

Like others always say, "Just enforce the rules as they written in the book." Well, just teach proper body contact the way the rulebook (and CEP materials) says.

+1. Very well said.

Lace'emUp · Post by **Lace'emUp** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:47 am

MrBoDangles wrote:Just waiting for the announcement that the AA/A idea has been scrapped.

It's still amazing to me that they tried to go forward with this with such lack of thought..

I agree, but more so, this is MN Hockey attempt at directly controlling level classification that's been in the hands of each association for how many years? (forever) Was the system broke? No. Now, each association that wants to move up or down has to justify their decision to MN Hockey. What if a kid and/or teams do not find it challenging enough to play at the A-level now? Unfortunately they're now at the mercy of MN Hockey to move them up to AA. Does anyone think this will be the case? Will more kids opt-out of association hockey and play AAA year-round if they're "stuck" at the A-level?

goaliewithfoggedglasses · Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:10 pm

Lace'emUp wrote:Will more kids opt-out of association hockey and play AAA year-round if they're "stuck" at the A-level?

Really? A mass exodus to Detroit and St. Louis? I doubt it.

Bluewhitefan · Post by **Bluewhitefan** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:52 pm

Lace'emUp wrote:
MrBoDangles wrote:Just waiting for the announcement that the AA/A idea has been scrapped.

It's still amazing to me that they tried to go forward with this with such lack of thought..
I agree, but more so, this is MN Hockey attempt at directly controlling level classification that's been in the hands of each association for how many years? (forever) Was the system broke? No. Now, each association that wants to move up or down has to justify their decision to MN Hockey. What if a kid and/or teams do not find it challenging enough to play at the A-level now? Unfortunately they're now at the mercy of MN Hockey to move them up to AA. Does anyone think this will be the case? Will more kids opt-out of association hockey and play AAA year-round if they're "stuck" at the A-level?

No - they'll do what they do now - rent an apartment in another town and play on their AA team, to the dismay of the long-time paying members.

SECoach · Post by **SECoach** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:51 pm

Let's clear a few things up.

Checking is not allowed at the Pee Wee level in any of the states mentioned. Yes, they have AAA teams, but they are affiliated with USA Hockey, and therefore play by the same rules we do. This is not a Minnesota Hockey decision and it's nationwide.

The primary reason for removing traditional checking from the Pee Wee level was to enhance skill development, not safety. You can certainly argue the merits of the decision, but not if the arguement is toughen up or get out.

The AA/A situation is also largely misunderstood. The system remains basically the same as traditional A/B1/B2/C, with the exception that "A" teams will be designated AA or A for POST SEASON PLAY. Yes, some communities may have AA and A levels meaning their B1 kids will now be playing A and so on. All this does is level the playing field. It's done the same way in high school. AA teams play A teams during conference and non conference games. Post season, they move to their respective classes.

Good details can be found at http://www.minnesotahockey.org/news_art ... r_id=80568

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:38 pm

Thank you SECoach! You have stated the intention of these rules very well. AND, the AA-A high school analogy is a good one. While there will be people screaming that JV is 2 steps further away from AA than A, it's still JV and JV never played against Varsity teams in the first place.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:12 pm

SECoach wrote:Let's clear a few things up.

Checking is not allowed at the Pee Wee level in any of the states mentioned. Yes, they have AAA teams, but they are affiliated with USA Hockey, and therefore play by the same rules we do. This is not a Minnesota Hockey decision and it's nationwide.

The primary reason for removing traditional checking from the Pee Wee level was to enhance skill development, not safety. You can certainly argue the merits of the decision, but not if the arguement is toughen up or get out.

The AA/A situation is also largely misunderstood. The system remains basically the same as traditional A/B1/B2/C, with the exception that "A" teams will be designated AA or A for POST SEASON PLAY. Yes, some communities may have AA and A levels meaning their B1 kids will now be playing A and so on. All this does is level the playing field. It's done the same way in high school. AA teams play A teams during conference and non conference games. Post season, they move to their respective classes.

Good details can be found at http://www.minnesotahockey.org/news_art ... r_id=80568

AA/A teams are back to playing each other now in District 6?

How many AA teams are really going to play A teams?

If youth is now going to be BASED off of HS, like you said, wouldn't it be right to form private associations to match private HS teams? Shouldn't kids play for who they intend to in youth so high schools are able to know what they have to work with..... since MNH has made youth and high school one and the same now?

I understand too clearly......

savagegopher · Post by **savagegopher** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:43 pm

Do you have some insight that D-6 made a change?

Bluewhitefan · Post by **Bluewhitefan** » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:43 pm

savagegopher wrote:Do you have some insight that D-6 made a change?

D6 is the only District that will split AA and A for the league season. Others do not have enough AA teams to do so.