AA/A Pilot: Is this the tipping point?

DumpandChase1 · Post by **DumpandChase1** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:11 pm

YouthHockeyHub wrote:
observer wrote:
The 12 are coming from associations all over the place to one association (couple here, couple there).
This makes no sense to me at all. 12 players coming into a strong association because they want to play AA? If the association is strong, and planning on playing AA, there aren't 12 spots to earn and those 12 players aren't going to make the AA team. And, the residents of that community aren't going to be happy with their community based association, MN Hockey or the players and families that come into their association. I'll call this a false or largely exaggerated rumor.

I believe this whole AA idea was cooked up by selfish dads wanting to try and play at the highest level, against the highest competition, at the expense of the other A teams in their District. Similar to when some selfish dads cooked up the "Maroon & Gold" League which was supposed to be a club of only the strongest bantam teams and associations. Several Maroon & Gold teams lost to teams outside of their club so clearly they weren't the best but wanted to think they were special. Again, selfish.

When some associations have 45 total A or AA players at 3 levels, and 200 B & C players at the same 3 levels. Why in the world would associations and MN Hockey cater to the selfish few.

I agree with Bo. This should be shot down now. Idea/Experiment failed because of selfishness. It could have worked until dads decided they wanted to tweak if even further because of their selfish nature. Brutal.
The number is exact, I verified it today - 12 new bodies across peewee and bantam levels.

What associations are these players coming from and what associations are they going to. Last I checked you could not waiver out if your assoc. offers the same level of team. Remember there is no difference between A and AA for the regular season.

Toomuchtoosoon · Post by **Toomuchtoosoon** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:08 pm

You have to be joking, right? Those schools schedule SSM and some of the other best prep schools in the country..... The strengths of schedule are towards the top.

You have been blinded by your jealousy. Seriously? They played SSM, but they also had 2X Rich, SSP, NSP, Sibley, Lourdes, AHA. Lot of weak teams to build the stats.

Their Superstars are playing A and still doing well. They have a few tough games, but a lot of cupcakes too. Same format as youth-season is league, tourneys, and out of conference games (scrimmages), with a different region(section)/state.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:43 pm

Toomuchtoosoon wrote:
You have to be joking, right? Those schools schedule SSM and some of the other best prep schools in the country..... The strengths of schedule are towards the top.
You have been blinded by your jealousy. Seriously? They played SSM, but they also had 2X Rich, SSP, NSP, Sibley, Lourdes, AHA. Lot of weak teams to build the stats.

Their Superstars are playing A and still doing well. They have a few tough games, but a lot of cupcakes too. Same format as youth-season is league, tourneys, and out of conference games (scrimmages), with a different region(section)/state.

Jealousy of what exactly?

I can see Richfield and Sibley, but.......

They are always WAY up there in strength of schedule.

savagegopher · Post by **savagegopher** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:44 pm

who are you verifying your info with

Toomuchtoosoon · Post by **Toomuchtoosoon** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:53 pm

STA had 13 blowout victories last year against weak teams. A very weak overall schedule.

Point is they are A, play an average schedule at best, and they still have players flock there to develop their hockey skills.

Playing A vs. AA will not hinder a kids development in youth hockey. There will be plenty of AA teams willing to play Wayzata or Edina's A team if they show they can compete. If NSP or NB put together a competitive team, they will get to play the big boys also.

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:07 pm

Toomuchtoosoon wrote:STA had 13 blowout victories last year against weak teams. A very weak overall schedule.

Point is they are A, play an average schedule at best, and they still have players flock there to develop their hockey skills.

Playing A vs. AA will not hinder a kids development in youth hockey. There will be plenty of AA teams willing to play Wayzata or Edina's A team if they show they can compete. If NSP or NB put together a competitive team, they will get to play the big boys also.

They are regularly in the top 20

of all teams in strength of schedule, if my memory serves me correct. Do you know how many AA teams there are in this state?

- Scheduling the toughest non-conference opponents out there.
- Scheduling the nation's best prep teams.

Why?

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:45 pm

Tony wrote:You can usually count the number of waivers in each district on one hand.

April 30, 2007 D6 minutes wrote:Waiver Committee Report 1500 waivers received last year needs to be a better way to handle. Committee will continue to meet.

That's a big hand.

Let's see if 12 move-ins make Edina PWAA and BAA. I doubt it highly. It is doubtful that there will be that many total move-ins spread through all their PW and Ban teams.

Really all that AA/A does is allow the old B1 designated teams to be able to play A teams. It sounds like D6 is still keeping that segregation alive for district play. Edina is also advertising their PW and Ban tourneys as having AA and A pools. But A can play AA in scrimmages, etc, something that B1 and A couldn't do before. Let's let it playout before calling it a failure.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:15 am

Really all that AA/A does is allow the old B1 designated teams to be able to play A teams.

Leave it to MNH to create a convoluted mess, rather than simply allowing B1 teams to play A teams.

BBgunner · Post by **BBgunner** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:15 am

So you get a Blaine, Wayzata, OMGHA, or any of the other big associations who have the numbers of kids to field a AA and an A team, those 30 kids now benefit from the development of playing higher caliber hockey and competing at a higher level. While I am not a private school guy at all this will help larger schools who get players plucked to go to private schools. This should also deter smaller associations from mergers and creating area programs or losing players by giving the kids they have the level play they need to develop without having to leave the smaller area or merge to get enough kids and talent pool to play at the highest level. I love this idea I have watched the B1 programs of the big associations grow and watch the smaller associations compete at this level and sometimes dominate because they have more talent. Now this levels off and an association like OMG could have AA playing A OMG and those Single A kids who may have been bubble first years get the experience/development of AA while allowed to play a more competitive A schedule. I honestly think this is a great thing and I also know it will have a few wrinkles to begin with but in the end this may let little Johnny who never played on the A team because his association was too small or he was kid number 16 in a big association get the higher level of competition he needs to develop while keeping his passion and motivation up.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:59 am

If I read this right, 12 waiver requests? An association that had 1 request last year and 4 this year has quadrupled. 12 requests out of 1,000's of kids is not really an epidemic?

Too many people seem worried about Edina, Wayzata or OMG? I understand Bo's concerns with a small association on the fringes of the metro area that District with big associations. But when looking at the entire state of hockey and the various mindsets of associations, only THREE associations consistently have fielded 2 A teams in the past. (Lakeville, Rochester and last year Wayzata) This year the state could have about 40-50 new A level teams. Some created by large associations fielding two A teams, and others by associations moving B1 teams to the A level.

I also agree with Bo that large associations will still dominate the AA, A, B1, B2 and C levels. Hopefully these large associations will see the benefits after year 1, and will field a AA, 2A 2B1, etc in future years. Also kids stuck at the B1-B2 level in large associations might just start moving/waiving to smaller associations to play A level?

I also agree with Bo that many parents will be furious their A level player is perceived to no longer be playing at the highest level provided. That is purely ego problems as the reality is they are all playing at the "A" level. Instead of these ego Dads having to tell people their kid didn't even make it into District playoffs, they can now say, my kid's team is going to State. (Nobody will even ask if it's AA, A or B level State)

spin-o-rama · Post by **spin-o-rama** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:13 am

InigoMontoya wrote:
Really all that AA/A does is allow the old B1 designated teams to be able to play A teams.
Leave it to MNH to create a convoluted mess, rather than simply allowing B1 teams to play A teams.

As silly as the new designations are, it might have been necessary. How many A teams would have been willing to play B1 teams?

It's funny that this board has posters who want Tier 1 in MN, but are denouncing AA/A because they predict there will be a waiver flight to AA that creates a chasm between the haves and have nots. Isn't that exactly what Tier 1 would do?

Personally, I don't see the waiver flight, and believe there will be more crossover of play that will benefit the second tier A players from the large associations, and the B1/A teams of smaller associations. We'll see.

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:59 am

spin-o-rama wrote:
Tony wrote:You can usually count the number of waivers in each district on one hand.

April 30, 2007 D6 minutes wrote:Waiver Committee Report 1500 waivers received last year needs to be a better way to handle. Committee will continue to meet.
That's a big hand.

Let's see if 12 move-ins make Edina PWAA and BAA. I doubt it highly. It is doubtful that there will be that many total move-ins spread through all their PW and Ban teams.

Really all that AA/A does is allow the old B1 designated teams to be able to play A teams. It sounds like D6 is still keeping that segregation alive for district play. Edina is also advertising their PW and Ban tourneys as having AA and A pools. But A can play AA in scrimmages, etc, something that B1 and A couldn't do before. Let's let it playout before calling it a failure.

1500 waivers in D6 seems astronomically high - I'd love to get the context of where they got the number 1500. I've been at this as both a coach and parent a long time and usually see a kid or two waiver in or waiver out. Usually for pretty logical reasons. I'd believe 150 waivers in D6/metro district in a year at all levels, but 1500 is not remotely possible or close. A Metro district has about 3,000 kids from Squirts/U10 to Bantam/U14...half of their players are asking for waivers?

YouthHockeyHub · Post by **YouthHockeyHub** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:12 am

DumpandChase1 wrote:
YouthHockeyHub wrote:
observer wrote: This makes no sense to me at all. 12 players coming into a strong association because they want to play AA? If the association is strong, and planning on playing AA, there aren't 12 spots to earn and those 12 players aren't going to make the AA team. And, the residents of that community aren't going to be happy with their community based association, MN Hockey or the players and families that come into their association. I'll call this a false or largely exaggerated rumor.

I believe this whole AA idea was cooked up by selfish dads wanting to try and play at the highest level, against the highest competition, at the expense of the other A teams in their District. Similar to when some selfish dads cooked up the "Maroon & Gold" League which was supposed to be a club of only the strongest bantam teams and associations. Several Maroon & Gold teams lost to teams outside of their club so clearly they weren't the best but wanted to think they were special. Again, selfish.

When some associations have 45 total A or AA players at 3 levels, and 200 B & C players at the same 3 levels. Why in the world would associations and MN Hockey cater to the selfish few.

I agree with Bo. This should be shot down now. Idea/Experiment failed because of selfishness. It could have worked until dads decided they wanted to tweak if even further because of their selfish nature. Brutal.
The number is exact, I verified it today - 12 new bodies across peewee and bantam levels.
What associations are these players coming from and what associations are they going to. Last I checked you could not waiver out if your assoc. offers the same level of team. Remember there is no difference between A and AA for the regular season.

Keeping my sources anonymous. Associations do not recruit players...period. These associations are trying to avoid any negative repercussions. The last thing an association wants is a kid who moves in and takes a spot of a kid who has been in the program for 8 years. If you are in the metro, ask your association president and chances are good that waiver numbers are up.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:24 am

How many A teams would have been willing to play B1 teams?

Fair enough.

So now you're asking, "How many of those AA teams, that were formerly A teams unwilling to play B1 teams, will now play A teams?"

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:27 am

How many AA associations will be fielding A teams? It sounds like many that were A, B1, B2, C (for example) are planning AA, B1, B2, B2.

Stripes2011 · Post by **Stripes2011** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:35 am

Maybe I am showing my age here, But does it Really matter what level we classify our kids at? its still a kids game..... (delete)

IHEA · Post by **IHEA** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:09 pm

So let's see if I have this right

Former A teams, now AA will not only be playing the top teams but also former B1 teams, now A. The only associations with B1 teams that won't move up to A are those that want the team to compete at the B2 level and thereby keeping them at B1.

State playoffs have not changed because the AA teams are playing AA teams just as last year A teams played A teams. The new A teams will play A teams just like they did when they were called B1.

In the regular season we now have all of the formerly classified A teams in the same pool as the formerly classified B1 teams which means many more teams to schedule game against for the regular season at the top team level. Will there be a league requirement for AA teams to schedule an equal number of games against A teams as other AA teams?

The other levels remain unchanged as far as their competition with only letter changes.

So basically everyone gets to feel better about their new letters and the regular season top tier of hockey is diluted in that all former A and B1 players are now playing together.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:41 pm

IHEA: You have it wrong. On all levels.

Survey · Post by **Survey** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:55 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:IHEA: You have it wrong. On all levels.

Seems pretty accurate to me Badger...where do you see the problem?

ThePuckStopsHere · Post by **ThePuckStopsHere** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:30 pm

IHEA wrote:So let's see if I have this right

Former A teams, now AA will not only be playing the top teams but also former B1 teams, now A. The only associations with B1 teams that won't move up to A are those that want the team to compete at the B2 level and thereby keeping them at B1.

State playoffs have not changed because the AA teams are playing AA teams just as last year A teams played A teams. The new A teams will play A teams just like they did when they were called B1.

In the regular season we now have all of the formerly classified A teams in the same pool as the formerly classified B1 teams which means many more teams to schedule game against for the regular season at the top team level. Will there be a league requirement for AA teams to schedule an equal number of games against A teams as other AA teams?

The other levels remain unchanged as far as their competition with only letter changes.

So basically everyone gets to feel better about their new letters and the regular season top tier of hockey is diluted in that all former A and B1 players are now playing together.

Looks spot on to me. You may want to add the discussion of when these associations that have both AA and A teams play each other the A teams will get destroyed!! What is the logic in that?

In D10 Centenntial, Blaine, Elk River, Etc. will have both AA and A teams at the Pee Wee and Bantam Level and each will have play each other during the D10 season. These games will be major major BLOWOUTS!! These games will do nothing for development and will be a total waste of time and money.

savagegopher · Post by **savagegopher** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:31 pm

You may see an association go AA, A, B1 vs A and two B1s or you may see edina add another A or B1 so you may get more teams from the larger association

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:32 pm

Close. Except, assc. like FL who will play AA/B1. then our 16 thru 30 end up playing the "old B2".

MrBoDangles · Post by **MrBoDangles** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:40 pm

BadgerBob82 wrote:If I read this right, 12 waiver requests? An association that had 1 request last year and 4 this year has quadrupled. 12 requests out of 1,000's of kids is not really an epidemic?

Too many people seem worried about Edina, Wayzata or OMG? I understand Bo's concerns with a small association on the fringes of the metro area that District with big associations. But when looking at the entire state of hockey and the various mindsets of associations, only THREE associations consistently have fielded 2 A teams in the past. (Lakeville, Rochester and last year Wayzata) This year the state could have about 40-50 new A level teams. Some created by large associations fielding two A teams, and others by associations moving B1 teams to the A level.

I also agree with Bo that large associations will still dominate the AA, A, B1, B2 and C levels. Hopefully these large associations will see the benefits after year 1, and will field a AA, 2A 2B1, etc in future years. Also kids stuck at the B1-B2 level in large associations might just start moving/waiving to smaller associations to play A level?

I also agree with Bo that many parents will be furious their A level player is perceived to no longer be playing at the highest level provided. That is purely ego problems as the reality is they are all playing at the "A" level. Instead of these ego Dads having to tell people their kid didn't even make it into District playoffs, they can now say, my kid's team is going to State. (Nobody will even ask if it's AA, A or B level State)

The problem with the twelve waiving into this one(?) mega association is that these were the studs(probably all 12) of the medium to small associations. They must know how their personal talent stacks up from Summer AAA, if they're waiving into mega associations. And to think this is only ONE association taking in this talent..

I know of three kids(northern metro

) that are going/moving to Edina and they'll all probably make their A Squirt/PeeWee team or be very close. Does Edina need more highly talented players? No. Can the small to medium associations afford to lose their studs? No. The FUTURE balance of High School Hockey in Mn has been severely damaged by MNH for many years to come from this.

We both heard (and remember) other's comments during our conversations that there should only be "12", "16", "18", "20", "24", "32" Elite teams allowed to play at this new AA level.... This is how people think and other people are now reacting to this way of thinking by making their move. This has not been about balance, it's been driven by creating a new elite level to ward off Tier 1 in Mn..... They now have their wish and all the talent is now congregating to the assocaitions that they know will make MNH's new AA Elite 32 Tournament....... = MNH's own version of Tier 1 AAA.

Once again, nothing will really change besides the rich getting richer.....

Please don't shoot the messenger.

Scout716 · Post by **Scout716** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:31 pm

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject:

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Close. Except, assc. like FL who will play AA/B1. then our 16 thru 30 end up playing the "old B2".

wouldn't this the give some B-1 Teams that have struggled in the past the chance to have alittle better win loss record? As well as those Struggling A teams of the past, now play another associations 16 - 30 may make them more competitive as well. I have seen, MN Big associations, B teams that have been just as good if not better then some of these A teams. so maybe - just maybe everything will balance out? At the end of day the kids still get to play hockey, and possibly win a game or two more - just a thought, trying to look at all sides

old goalie85 · Post by **old goalie85** » Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:53 pm

Yes I can see more wins @ the B1 level, good point. Sometimes I get caught up in the "playing the best" mindset.