Tier hockey

[BadgerBob82]

Bo: Don't put words in my mouth. In general, if you have a program with about 20 players at a level. Why would anyone think MN Hockey should change the rules to make it viable for an "unviable" association to conduct business? In other words, MN Hockey provides many options to help everyone have a place to play.

As I read on this forum, a "handful" of people that are not happy with their local program situation want Tier 1 as an option.

The current rules provide for almost every scenario, EXCEPT Tier 1?

[SCBlueLiner]

So, hypothetically, if MN Hockey does approve Tier I hockey and allows, say, 5 teams to form will MN Hockey also fall in line with USAH's birth year rules?

They will have to with Tier I, will that also trickle down into Tier 2/association hockey?

[SnowedIn]

Snowedin: Well, I suppose if MN Hockey added one sentence to their Handbook, "MN Hockey will allow the formation of USA Tier 1 teams."

Somehow, I would think it would add a few pages to the document and there would be a few committees formed, districts lobbying for provisions and associations getting involved as well. I suppose with the entrepreneurial incentives, the existing framework of summer AAA programs could handle the formation of these teams? But I just think there would be some changes to the existing MN Hockey rules and it would take time to get everyone's palms greased.

Yes the bylaws would change but the entire HS and association model (Tier 2) as it stands now would be completely unchanged because Tier 1 stands completely separate. Associations would not be involved because they have nothing to do with Tier 1. They are tier 2.

This has nothing to do with summer wild west AAA hockey AT ALL. Tier 1 is very well documented and formulated in every state and province in NA. The bylaws would be copied with exception to decisions made on residency and other items that MH members implement.

[BadgerBob82]

You are saying MN Hockey just has to say yes to Tier 1?

[SnowedIn]

So, hypothetically, if MN Hockey does approve Tier I hockey and allows, say, 5 teams to form will MN Hockey also fall in line with USAH's birth year rules?

They will have to with Tier I, will that also trickle down into Tier 2/association hockey?

Yes Tier 1 teams would fall in line with the birth year rules, like every other tier 1 team in the US and Canada, because they will be competing against these teams.

Nothing will change with Tier 2/assoc. Nothing. Many, many tier 2 programs have 2 year age bands for each level like MN association. Most of these however use calendar year.

However, the point is that Tier 2 operates completely independently of Tier 1. Literally, the MN assocatiation and HS hockey programs would not skip a beat, nor have to do anything if a Tier 1 program was put in place. OTHER THAN MAYBE convincing their top players not to leave to Tier 1 by doing things like getting great developmental coaches and programs in place. This kind of dynamic creates a better situation for everyone.

[MrBoDangles]

JSR: I understand what you are saying and respect your view. But, after reading your post, it is just as I imagine and continue to ask how that is somehow a better option to what we in MN have?

For the Bo's of MN Hockey, I can agree MN Hockey needs to step in to make districts and associations do what's in the best interest of individual kids. Nobody should be trapped. But the handful of "trapped" kids don't warrant a move to private, boundry-less, renegade hockey leagues.

Your words, your mouth(fingers).

[SnowedIn]

You are saying MN Hockey just has to say yes to Tier 1?

Yes and then the top brass would need to change the bylaws to initiate the process, grant the charters, and govern the program in accordance with the bylaws as it does for Tier 2.

[BadgerBob82]

OK, where are these potential Tier 1 players playing now?

[MrBoDangles]

What's wrong with having options up here if you're in a bad situation like you had?

Was it a parent coach that was the cause for you leaving?

Bo, program choice is a great deal different than Tier I hockey. It seems a lot of your comments are on threads about Tier I hockey, so please forgive me if I am mistaken at any point.

Judging from this board, there is a great deal of interest in Tier I or higher level hockey. What I don't see are threads about program choice. From the Affiliate viewpoint, Minnesota Hockey allows co-ops and individual programs are free to play elite players up in age. There's the school address too. I know these clauses don't solve every problem.

To this outsider it seems that limited program choice within the existing Tier II model is more likely than Tier I hockey. Even though we've been told, "It's coming!" over and over. I know...if I go back and read all your posts you are probably pretty consistent that you just want program choice.

I'd liken your plight to that of someone stranded in a bad part of town. A car pulls up and offers you a ride so you can get out of there. Do you hop in? If you are so desperate that anything sounds better, yes. If you are worried about where that car goes, no.

Remember, one or two or five Tier I orgs don't absorb all the unhappy families.

Non-parent coach, paid a small stipend if that matters.

I'm saying that the $2,600 (JSR) option would have worked out great for YOU, if YOU, lived in (a free) Minnesota and had those same problems with your coach........ As YOU did in Florida.

You would be amazed at the number of families that are unhappy and stuck with their coaches in Minnesota. Those numbers flip in the Summer..

Are you happy with your son's new coach?

Bump

[BadgerBob82]

Bo: That isn't sweeping them under the rug! Face it, you are arguing for a change to the whole MN Hockey model to accomodate a program with 20 players. Yet MN Hockey has multiple provisions available so as not to trap any of these kids in this association.

You just want something that isn't offered.

In other words, you want to leave your association, but only for Tier 1?

And you don't want B1 hockey to be 2 levels away from AA hockey? MN Hockey allows you to waiver to a program that offeres AA level hockey. (Or just A level?)

And if your son doesn't make Tier 1 level. You'll want more Tier 1 teams formed screaming there are more qualified players than teams.

[SnowedIn]

OK, where are these potential Tier 1 players playing now?

While not all of them will be interested in Tier 1, many will be. They are the studs on the A teams. Like any tryout system, its not perfect, but the top 15 skaters plus goalies that tryout for each team will make it.

[JSR]

OK, where are these potential Tier 1 players playing now?

In virtually every single association in MN right now.....

[Quasar]

OK, where are these potential Tier 1 players playing now?

While not all of them will be interested in Tier 1, many will be. They are the studs on the A teams. Like any tryout system, its not perfect, but the top 15 skaters plus goalies that tryout for each team will make it.

Bob ...If you try to understand the concept that high school is not the end of the road for a lot of kids you would begin to see the other side of the argument.

[BadgerBob82]

I just don't think you can fit all of the "studs" on say 5 teams. It would end up being at least 1-2 per district. So we are talking of more like 20 Tier 1 teams? Which would be enticing, cuz with 20 Tier 1 teams, split into divisions geographically, travel would be cut down. Also, when going to out-state tournaments, they could just charter a plane instead of flying with the peasants on Delta. I am starting to see the benefit to a MN Tier 1 system!

And very simple application form.

#1. Is your son a STUD?
#2. How much money you got?

[O-townClown]

That aside I don't think the problem of unhappy will be solved by a Tier1 system.

Snowed, I know you are right and I'll take it a step further. It creates one more thing to be upset about! Tryouts and selection process are the obvious.

Bo, my son's coach does a good job with kids. It is a small world and we first met him when he was Hockey Director of my son's old program. I'm not sure why you are asking me questions, but I do have the impression you don't realize how significantly different Minnesota is from other areas because the youth hockey structure rests atop a network of municipally-owned rinks.

When Minnesota is parent-funded through a true club structure there is no way you'll have a residency requirement. Until then, municipalities would like to see their taxpayer-funded facilities utilized by residents.

[MrBoDangles]

Bo: That isn't sweeping them under the rug! Face it, you are arguing for a change to the whole MN Hockey model to accomodate a program with 20 players. Yet MN Hockey has multiple provisions available so as not to trap any of these kids in this association.

You just want something that isn't offered.

In other words, you want to leave your association, but only for Tier 1?

And you don't want B1 hockey to be 2 levels away from AA hockey? MN Hockey allows you to waiver to a program that offeres AA level hockey. (Or just A level?)

And if your son doesn't make Tier 1 level. You'll want more Tier 1 teams formed screaming there are more qualified players than teams.

Bob, you never take anything in. I'm not a part of this association. Again, we now have a great Hockey setting.

Tier 1/2/3/4 might be a great OPTION for some.

MNH pulling away kids from associations for the MN Rec League is a good OPTION for some.

MN Made is a good OPTION for some in the south metro.

The Xperience league is a good OPTION for some Mites.

Association is a great OPTION for those in a good setting.

But there are PLENTY with no option other than a bad one.

[BadgerBob82]

Quasar: If you understood what it takes to get on the road past high school, I think you'd say Tier 1 isn't it. There is no magic pill.

[BadgerBob82]

Bo: So you are fighting the fight for the little guy? It always seems you are speaking of your own specific situation in NB?

[SCBlueLiner]

So, hypothetically, if MN Hockey does approve Tier I hockey and allows, say, 5 teams to form will MN Hockey also fall in line with USAH's birth year rules?

They will have to with Tier I, will that also trickle down into Tier 2/association hockey?

Yes Tier 1 teams would fall in line with the birth year rules, like every other tier 1 team in the US and Canada, because they will be competing against these teams.

Nothing will change with Tier 2/assoc. Nothing. Many, many tier 2 programs have 2 year age bands for each level like MN association. Most of these however use calendar year.

However, the point is that Tier 2 operates completely independently of Tier 1. Literally, the MN assocatiation and HS hockey programs would not skip a beat, nor have to do anything if a Tier 1 program was put in place. OTHER THAN MAYBE convincing their top players not to leave to Tier 1 by doing things like getting great developmental coaches and programs in place. This kind of dynamic creates a better situation for everyone.

Yes, they do use calender year w/two year age bands. I think it would be confusing for some kids who fall within the age bands and they may get a reality check as to how good they actually are. Take a 2nd yr MN Squirt. This kid may have always been the best player in his association because he has a birthday that falls in the second half of the year (say 8-1-01) and he has had the benefit of always being one of the older, more physically mature players. Now, moving to USAH Tier 1 age bands following birth years, this player is no longer a 2nd Yr Squirt but is now one of the younger 1st Yr Pee Wees. Big difference. Now instead of being the kid who is bigger, stronger, faster on the ice because of his birthdate he is now on the other end of the spectrum.

The opposite would be true for those kids on the back end of the MN Hockey age band (say a kid born 06/01/01). This player has always been a young 1st year player (Pee Wee in this case) having to play against older kids. Now under USAH he would actually be an older 2nd yr player when he hits the second year of the age band where his physical maturity may benefit him more.

For this reason I would think it would be in the best interest of all of MN Hockey to fall in line with USAH on the birth year structure. So as to avoid confusion between the Tier 2 and Tier 1 ranks.

[O-townClown]

Bob, this is why "AAA" hockey is derided as "AA that can pay".

On the best teams the players are all excellent. On most there are a few and half or more are okay players paying for the privilege.

When you argue against Tier I for youth the inevitable response is that "we can't hold these kids back" as if AAA Youth is better for individual player development than AA, a premise that hasn't been proven.

Clearly at older ages there is a need to get the best players together full-time with the best players. Maybe starting around age 15?

[MrBoDangles]

That aside I don't think the problem of unhappy will be solved by a Tier1 system.

Snowed, I know you are right and I'll take it a step further. It creates one more thing to be upset about! Tryouts and selection process are the obvious.

Bo, my son's coach does a good job with kids. It is a small world and we first met him when he was Hockey Director of my son's old program. I'm not sure why you are asking me questions, but I do have the impression you don't realize how significantly different Minnesota is from other areas because the youth hockey structure rests atop a network of municipally-owned rinks.

When Minnesota is parent-funded through a true club structure there is no way you'll have a residency requirement. Until then, municipalities would like to see their taxpayer-funded facilities utilized by residents.

Because you had a tough setting and were able to find an out without moving. Not as easy up here in MN.

Great news for you and the kid. Happy for you guys..

[JSR]

Quasar: If you understood what it takes to get on the road past high school, I think you'd say Tier 1 isn't it. There is no magic pill.

You are correct there is no magic pil but Tier 1 is ONE way, you seem to suggest it is not the way at all in this post. Current MN model is also one way.... Virtually every D1 player (with some rare exceptions) out of WI has played Tier 1 at some point in their career...... even if it was just peewees and bantams..... just sayin.....

[Quasar]

Quasar: If you understood what it takes to get on the road past high school, I think you'd say Tier 1 isn't it. There is no magic pill.

Well, my son played D111 and my grandson just passed the end of the road sign.. So I do understand what it takes... and your right there is no magic pill. I can tell you from experience, in Minnesota it takes all the tools in your kit. Tier 1 would make it a little easier for those that can afford it.

I never could, But I have no problem with someone spending their own money..

[Snap Happy]

I'd liken your plight to that of someone stranded in a bad part of town. A car pulls up and offers you a ride so you can get out of there. Do you hop in? If you are so desperate that anything sounds better, yes. If you are worried about where that car goes, no.

Well said! I'm worried about where the car goes. Let's not run the risk of ruining the great MN hockey tradition because a small few don't like their winter "opportunity" (it should be called opportunity based on the D1 MN market share!).

[Snap Happy]

Bo: That isn't sweeping them under the rug! Face it, you are arguing for a change to the whole MN Hockey model to accomodate a program with 20 players. Yet MN Hockey has multiple provisions available so as not to trap any of these kids in this association.

You just want something that isn't offered.

In other words, you want to leave your association, but only for Tier 1?

And you don't want B1 hockey to be 2 levels away from AA hockey? MN Hockey allows you to waiver to a program that offeres AA level hockey. (Or just A level?)

And if your son doesn't make Tier 1 level. You'll want more Tier 1 teams formed screaming there are more qualified players than teams.