Tier hockey

[JSR]

I have to agree with Kidding Mes comment. Why is it that the most vocal people on here saying MN needs Tier 1 hockey aren't from MN? Why do you care? Is it possible they are pushing it here because they know if MN jumps into Tier 1 it will strengthen Tier 1 and benefit THEM, even if it isn't the right thing for MN.

And there's a lot of talk about it being a positive that they have all kinds of choices in these other states. That's probably because they need them there because none of their options are sufficient. We don't have that problem in MN. Our current system serves 99.9% of our kids very well. We dont need the other options.

Heaven forbid someone give an objective opinion or some information. Hadn't realized you literally know it all up there and couldn't possibly learn anything from what anyone else is doing.......

[Quasar]

I have to agree with Kidding Mes comment. Why is it that the most vocal people on here saying MN needs Tier 1 hockey aren't from MN? Why do you care? Is it possible they are pushing it here because they know if MN jumps into Tier 1 it will strengthen Tier 1 and benefit THEM, even if it isn't the right thing for MN.

And there's a lot of talk about it being a positive that they have all kinds of choices in these other states. That's probably because they need them there because none of their options are sufficient. We don't have that problem in MN. Our current system serves 99.9% of our kids very well. We dont need the other options.

Heaven forbid someone give an objective opinion or some information. Hadn't realized you literally know it all up there and couldn't possibly learn anything from what anyone else is doing.......

[O-townClown]

You also don't have the numbers and depth to work with and are just trying to keep things moving forward. Taking your tiny FL hockey market and reflecting that back to MN is apples and oranges.

We've heard from JSR who has a relevant comparison from WI. Compare to MI or East Coast but give us a break with FL.

MH has everything going for it and there are opportunities to mold the clay a bit here and there to make a nicer product, or just leave it as is. But with lots of material to work with there are realistic choices available if people step up and make it happen.

Snow, Florida has 5,000 registered Youth players. Illinois is much closer in size to Florida than it is Minnesota. Simply put, no area approaches what you find in Minnesota. I'm not sure how Wisconsin could be "relevant" if participation is a measure. It borders Minnesota, but it's a world away when it comes to the issues that affect youth hockey.

You ask to compare to Michigan or the East Coast. It's interesting when I do that because I find very few people have even a conversational familiarity with how youth hockey is laid out in various areas across the country.

"Give us a break with Florida"? In five years or whatever as a registered member of this board I can't think of discussions about our Affiliate's rules or approach to governance. The forum is for Minnesota Youth Hockey. As a product of MAHA, I find it very interesting to observe oversight issues there. Many challenges are universal while some are specific to certain regions. It's interesting.

You are right that change comes from people that are willing to step up and make it happen. What's interesting is that - for all the internet message board furor - there has been little to no effort to work through MAHA for change. Maybe it will come as a result of alternatives like Made, which is essentially what AAU represents to Michigan and Colorado.

The good news is that Minnesota turns out more NCAA players than other states, hockey is less expensive there, participation is still very high, and all the kids have a place to play. It takes input from those that are less than happy to push forward with continued improvement. Kaizen.

[SnowedIn]

You also don't have the numbers and depth to work with and are just trying to keep things moving forward. Taking your tiny FL hockey market and reflecting that back to MN is apples and oranges.

We've heard from JSR who has a relevant comparison from WI. Compare to MI or East Coast but give us a break with FL.

MH has everything going for it and there are opportunities to mold the clay a bit here and there to make a nicer product, or just leave it as is. But with lots of material to work with there are realistic choices available if people step up and make it happen.

Snow, Florida has 5,000 registered Youth players. Illinois is much closer in size to Florida than it is Minnesota. Simply put, no area approaches what you find in Minnesota. I'm not sure how Wisconsin could be "relevant" if participation is a measure. It borders Minnesota, but it's a world away when it comes to the issues that affect youth hockey.

You ask to compare to Michigan or the East Coast. It's interesting when I do that because I find very few people have even a conversational familiarity with how youth hockey is laid out in various areas across the country.

"Give us a break with Florida"? In five years or whatever as a registered member of this board I can't think of discussions about our Affiliate's rules or approach to governance. The forum is for Minnesota Youth Hockey. As a product of MAHA, I find it very interesting to observe oversight issues there. Many challenges are universal while some are specific to certain regions. It's interesting.

You are right that change comes from people that are willing to step up and make it happen. What's interesting is that - for all the internet message board furor - there has been little to no effort to work through MAHA for change. Maybe it will come as a result of alternatives like Made, which is essentially what AAU represents to Michigan and Colorado.

The good news is that Minnesota turns out more NCAA players than other states, hockey is less expensive there, participation is still very high, and all the kids have a place to play. It takes input from those that are less than happy to push forward with continued improvement. Kaizen.

In the post of yours that I responded to I took from you that choice in FL isn't all that its cracked up to be. I responded specifically to how that is irrelevant because FL does not have the players or participation or rinks and is an irrelevant comparison to MN where options can be absorbed readily. I am not writing off your opinions or your hockey resume. I am writing off your refence point of FL. Developing options and choices in MN has nothing to do with how options work or don't work in FL.

MH has a great thing going but in order to give the elite players a chance to really practice, play against and develop with other elite players like is done in all other markets, Tier 1 is and option and choice which would be a panacea towards that objective. AND UNLIKE the smaller markets the teams formed in a MN T1 league could get much of their competition with each other which would be some of the best in the country.

[SnowedIn]

I have to agree with Kidding Mes comment. Why is it that the most vocal people on here saying MN needs Tier 1 hockey aren't from MN? Why do you care? Is it possible they are pushing it here because they know if MN jumps into Tier 1 it will strengthen Tier 1 and benefit THEM, even if it isn't the right thing for MN.

And there's a lot of talk about it being a positive that they have all kinds of choices in these other states. That's probably because they need them there because none of their options are sufficient. We don't have that problem in MN. Our current system serves 99.9% of our kids very well. We dont need the other options.

Heaven forbid someone give an objective opinion or some information. Hadn't realized you literally know it all up there and couldn't possibly learn anything from what anyone else is doing.......

99.9% are happy?

Speak for yourself - you are 100% happy - you don't need the options
That we can agree on

[O-townClown]

Snowed, I agree with you on probably all this. A move to recognized Tier I in Minnesota is a highly political process. The way that works is that if people can't agree on the details there is often no change. You outline an in-state Tier I league (for lack of a better term) where these teams often play each other. JSR has thrown out a suggestion of 5 programs. It sounds good and could work very well.

Others have offered up a shorter number of teams for the truly elite. A "Team Minnesota" if you will. Still others want the market forces to take over, in which case you could see countless Tier I teams. That's kinda what Massachusetts has in that all travel is called "AAA". I still don't know how many are actually registered Tier I.

My comment about how choice is working in my area was not offered to imply anything about how MAHA governs, just a simple observation that the oversimplification that suggests families up there will be happy if they can choose a program is pretty funny. It isn't about where one lives; just a remark about human nature.

[SnowedIn]

Snowed, I agree with you on probably all this. A move to recognized Tier I in Minnesota is a highly political process. The way that works is that if people can't agree on the details there is often no change. You outline an in-state Tier I league (for lack of a better term) where these teams often play each other. JSR has thrown out a suggestion of 5 programs. It sounds good and could work very well.

Others have offered up a shorter number of teams for the truly elite. A "Team Minnesota" if you will. Still others want the market forces to take over, in which case you could see countless Tier I teams. That's kinda what Massachusetts has in that all travel is called "AAA". I still don't know how many are actually registered Tier I.

My comment about how choice is working in my area was not offered to imply anything about how MAHA governs, just a simple observation that the oversimplification that suggests families up there will be happy if they can choose a program is pretty funny. It isn't about where one lives; just a remark about human nature.

Agree on much of what you say. I think many people unfamiliar with in season AAA hockey which is Tier 1 think that that's what Tier 1 is and as you know it isn't. Wild west AAA hockey which pops up everywhere in NA is nothing like Tier 1 in season, fully governed and controlled hockey.

I also don't think it will make everyone happy because only the best players will make these teams. That said there will not be a ground swell of support because most will not benefit from it, but it will result more elite players being produced by MN...in my opinion.

[JSR]

Snow, Florida has 5,000 registered Youth players. Illinois is much closer in size to Florida than it is Minnesota. Simply put, no area approaches what you find in Minnesota. I'm not sure how Wisconsin could be "relevant" if participation is a measure. It borders Minnesota, but it's a world away when it comes to the issues that affect youth hockey.

I don't know about a world away. Similar state population size. Similar demography as far as the people who inhabit the state. Different hockey culture and participation numbers. But with around 18,000 registered USA hockey members (compared to the 50,000 of MN) I think WI is relevant in the discussion, plus you have MI on the other boarder and I think it's interesting that WI does try and grow the sport with an idea of modeling MN's best and just a smidge of what MI does do right as well.... It's like a micro model for the MN's and MI's if you ask me.....

[BadgerBob82]

The people that rave over MN summer AAA think that is what in-season Tier 1 would resemble. So they want their summer AAA experience year round.

Many don't realize you don't make an elite AAA in-season Tier 1 team just because your check cashed. And there are rules and it is governed.

[JSR]

The people that rave over MN summer AAA think that is what in-season Tier 1 would resemble. So they want their summer AAA experience year round.

Many don't realize you don't make an elite AAA in-season Tier 1 team just because your check cashed. And there are rules and it is governed.

That part is true.... but the other part is the training, the talent level from top to bottom and the like mindedness (is that a word?) of the kids and parents involved tend to make the expereince pretty positive for all involved and one that is usually alot less drama filled. I think that is in reality why people want this option more than anything. In association hockey, no matter how good the association, the idea of what the exeprience should be like is all over the map from "recreation" minded folks to "hard core hockey" folks and everything in between and gets pretty heated from both sides in alot of places debating that. In Tier 1 AAA winter hockey there is no debate and that type of drama is rare, I think it boils down to that if you ask me that folks just want to be around others that think like them so they don't feel like everything is a battle.

[BadgerBob82]

Makes perfect sense JSR.

That's why I think when their little super-star is cut from the real Tier 1 level, the summer AAA parents will "demand" the "market" create more "options" or "opportunities". And the mighty dollar being a good motivator, private parties will create a great supply to meet that demand.

Which bleeds over from the Combat thread. In the past 5+ years the number of summer AAA programs/participation has grown wildly. Why, cuz we are suddenly producing so many super-stars? Or to capture the dollars willingly being thrown around on "opportunities" to keep up with the Jones'?

[SnowedIn]

Makes perfect sense JSR.

That's why I think when their little super-star is cut from the real Tier 1 level, the summer AAA parents will "demand" the "market" create more "options" or "opportunities". And the mighty dollar being a good motivator, private parties will create a great supply to meet that demand.

Which bleeds over from the Combat thread. In the past 5+ years the number of summer AAA programs/participation has grown wildly. Why, cuz we are suddenly producing so many super-stars? Or to capture the dollars willingly being thrown around on "opportunities" to keep up with the Jones'?

Bob you have been on this thread and similar threads debating this subject. You have read the posts, and you still post such a nimble response.

AGAIN: In season (Sep-Feb) Tier 1 AAA hockey is completely regulated and controlled by the state hockey association and USAH with strictly limited team charters. Summer AAA hockey is completely unregulated. Anyone can form a team. This is why summer AAA hockey is mostly not elite hockey because top talent is diluted across dozens of teams in MN. The hockey for the most part is an open free for all. Some tournaments have Elite AAA or Super Elite AAA to form a distinction from "regular" AAA. There are definitely a handfull of high end teams and tournaments and you should be able to find a suitable tournament and division for your team. For IN SEASON Tier 1 the number of teams is limited and it is extremely hard and very rare for a state to grant another charter to expand the the number of teams in a state. Because of the limited number of teams, the level of hockey and talent is high. There is a big difference between rank 1-10, 11-25, 26-40 and beyond, but the hockey is much better and you can find the teams that you should play against. Again, the #teams is, for all intensive purposes, CAPPED. So please stop the comparison to Summer AAA hockey.

The all mighty dollar and peoples demand will not expand the number of teams. The only justification for additional teams would be that the talent level for the existing teams is off the charts for EVERY team at most age groups which would justify another team expansion. Even then it may not be approved. How do I know this? Because this is not a new concept like your post would imply! The process and guidelines for Tier1 hockey is all over the US and Canada and there is a precedent for everything I have written.

And last of all, despite your obvious distaste for helping those skaters that are truly more advanced, further advance and maybe one day become "superstars", they would benefit in a large way from this level of hockey.

[BadgerBob82]

I agree with your 2nd paragraph.

You can say whatever you want, but since it doesn't exist, you don't know what Teir 1 would look like until it came here. You are entitled to your opinion, so am I. And my opinion is the growing number of AAA summer hockey parents would want Tier 1. And there are far more than 5 AAA teams in the summer and only a percentage of all hockey players chose to play summer hockey. (In other words alot of Elite hockey players don't play AAA in the summer) I could easily see an average of 2 Tier 1 teams per District if it came to MN. Some will have 1 team, some would have more, but I could see 25-30 teams.

And what would it look like? Oh yeah, the AA-A model, only better. So if you want, maybe we talk about forming District wide teams, call them Tier 1, have a 30 team MN League, then go play some out-of-state tournaments and make a run at Nationals?

But if we're talking about Privately held LLC's running hockey teams in MN, I just don't see that.

[MrBoDangles]

Snowed, I agree with you on probably all this. A move to recognized Tier I in Minnesota is a highly political process. The way that works is that if people can't agree on the details there is often no change. You outline an in-state Tier I league (for lack of a better term) where these teams often play each other. JSR has thrown out a suggestion of 5 programs. It sounds good and could work very well.

Others have offered up a shorter number of teams for the truly elite. A "Team Minnesota" if you will. Still others want the market forces to take over, in which case you could see countless Tier I teams. That's kinda what Massachusetts has in that all travel is called "AAA". I still don't know how many are actually registered Tier I.

My comment about how choice is working in my area was not offered to imply anything about how MAHA governs, just a simple observation that the oversimplification that suggests families up there will be happy if they can choose a program is pretty funny. It isn't about where one lives; just a remark about human nature.

Agree on much of what you say. I think many people unfamiliar with in season AAA hockey which is Tier 1 think that that's what Tier 1 is and as you know it isn't. Wild west AAA hockey which pops up everywhere in NA is nothing like Tier 1 in season, fully governed and controlled hockey.

I also don't think it will make everyone happy because only the best players will make these teams. That said there will not be a ground swell of support because most will not benefit from it, but it will result more elite players being produced by MN...in my opinion.

"elite players being produced"

Edina teams skate alot(many associations had less than half the practices). -They're probably going to produce some quality players.

Many MN associations skate much less. -Probably not going to produce many quality players.

But all is equal and bliss in Minnesota.

Good post, Snowed..

[Snap Happy]

Snowed, I agree with you on probably all this. A move to recognized Tier I in Minnesota is a highly political process. The way that works is that if people can't agree on the details there is often no change. You outline an in-state Tier I league (for lack of a better term) where these teams often play each other. JSR has thrown out a suggestion of 5 programs. It sounds good and could work very well.

Others have offered up a shorter number of teams for the truly elite. A "Team Minnesota" if you will. Still others want the market forces to take over, in which case you could see countless Tier I teams. That's kinda what Massachusetts has in that all travel is called "AAA". I still don't know how many are actually registered Tier I.

My comment about how choice is working in my area was not offered to imply anything about how MAHA governs, just a simple observation that the oversimplification that suggests families up there will be happy if they can choose a program is pretty funny. It isn't about where one lives; just a remark about human nature.

Agree on much of what you say. I think many people unfamiliar with in season AAA hockey which is Tier 1 think that that's what Tier 1 is and as you know it isn't. Wild west AAA hockey which pops up everywhere in NA is nothing like Tier 1 in season, fully governed and controlled hockey.

I also don't think it will make everyone happy because only the best players will make these teams. That said there will not be a ground swell of support because most will not benefit from it, but it will result more elite players being produced by MN...in my opinion.

"elite players being produced"

Edina teams skate alot(many associations had less than half the practices). -They're probably going to produce some quality players.

Many MN associations skate much less. -Probably not going to produce many quality players.

But all is equal and bliss in Minnesota.

Good post, Snowed..

jeez..you're right Bo. Of the 180 plus NCAA D1 skaters From MN this year..I'm almost positive most of them were Hornets.. what's your angle anyway..choice or development???

[Quasar]

Snowed, I agree with you on probably all this. A move to recognized Tier I in Minnesota is a highly political process. The way that works is that if people can't agree on the details there is often no change. You outline an in-state Tier I league (for lack of a better term) where these teams often play each other. JSR has thrown out a suggestion of 5 programs. It sounds good and could work very well.

Others have offered up a shorter number of teams for the truly elite. A "Team Minnesota" if you will. Still others want the market forces to take over, in which case you could see countless Tier I teams. That's kinda what Massachusetts has in that all travel is called "AAA". I still don't know how many are actually registered Tier I.

My comment about how choice is working in my area was not offered to imply anything about how MAHA governs, just a simple observation that the oversimplification that suggests families up there will be happy if they can choose a program is pretty funny. It isn't about where one lives; just a remark about human nature.

Agree on much of what you say. I think many people unfamiliar with in season AAA hockey which is Tier 1 think that that's what Tier 1 is and as you know it isn't. Wild west AAA hockey which pops up everywhere in NA is nothing like Tier 1 in season, fully governed and controlled hockey.

I also don't think it will make everyone happy because only the best players will make these teams. That said there will not be a ground swell of support because most will not benefit from it, but it will result more elite players being produced by MN...in my opinion.

I think we would be lucky to field 6 teams over the next couple of years .
It will do no one any good to pretend otherwise. I also agree with Royal, that this is only for the older kids.

To Bob I would like to say, this forum should be a place where people read others posts with an open mind. The whole purpose is to generate ideas for discussion. Many people, my self included, expand and change their opinions based on the exchange of ideas.

I would also like to make the observation that many people on this board have never met a player with the talent to play Tier 1. Otherwise they would know that first and foremost is character. The parents of these few kids know exactly how their kid fits into the scene. And they accept it. The idea that they are unable to accept reality is stupid on it's face. take it from me, by the time one of these kids reaches 16 years old,, he and everyone around him has seen all the reality they will ever need.

[MrBoDangles]

Agree on much of what you say. I think many people unfamiliar with in season AAA hockey which is Tier 1 think that that's what Tier 1 is and as you know it isn't. Wild west AAA hockey which pops up everywhere in NA is nothing like Tier 1 in season, fully governed and controlled hockey.

I also don't think it will make everyone happy because only the best players will make these teams. That said there will not be a ground swell of support because most will not benefit from it, but it will result more elite players being produced by MN...in my opinion.

"elite players being produced"

Edina teams skate alot(many associations had less than half the practices). -They're probably going to produce some quality players.

Many MN associations skate much less. -Probably not going to produce many quality players.

But all is equal and bliss in Minnesota.

Good post, Snowed..

jeez..you're right Bo. Of the 180 plus NCAA D1 skaters From MN this year..I'm almost positive most of them were Hornets.. what's your angle anyway..choice or development???

I'm saying that if live within a border of an association that practices once a week.... You, then get one practice a week.

[Snap Happy]

"elite players being produced"

Edina teams skate alot(many associations had less than half the practices). -They're probably going to produce some quality players.

Many MN associations skate much less. -Probably not going to produce many quality players.

But all is equal and bliss in Minnesota.

Good post, Snowed..

jeez..you're right Bo. Of the 180 plus NCAA D1 skaters From MN this year..I'm almost positive most of them were Hornets.. what's your angle anyway..choice or development???

I'm saying that if live within a border of an association that practices once a week.... You, then get one practice a week.

...wasn't that just the silver bullet... open enroll your kid in the next communities JR high and quit complaining. There's a choice for you.

[MrBoDangles]

jeez..you're right Bo. Of the 180 plus NCAA D1 skaters From MN this year..I'm almost positive most of them were Hornets.. what's your angle anyway..choice or development???

I'm saying that if live within a border of an association that practices once a week.... You, then get one practice a week.

...wasn't that just the silver bullet... open enroll your kid in the next communities JR high and quit complaining. There's a choice for you.

Are you the superhero bus driver that's going to drive the extra 60 miles for kids. Yours was the "silver bullet"!

[Snap Happy]

I'm saying that if live within a border of an association that practices once a week.... You, then get one practice a week.

...wasn't that just the silver bullet... open enroll your kid in the next communities JR high and quit complaining. There's a choice for you.

Are you the superhero bus driver that's going to drive the extra 60 miles for kids. Yours was the "silver bullet"!

you're willing to entertain the idea of tier 1 as a viable option to your problem (all costs considered!!)..I'm sure you have the resources to figure something out.

[MrBoDangles]

...wasn't that just the silver bullet... open enroll your kid in the next communities JR high and quit complaining. There's a choice for you.

Are you the superhero bus driver that's going to drive the extra 60 miles for kids. Yours was the "silver bullet"!

you're willing to entertain the idea of tier 1 as a viable option to your problem (all costs considered!!)..I'm sure you have the resources to figure something out.

Badger, I take it this is you? There couldn't be another that has such a hard time following along.

[BadgerBob82]

Nope. Not me Bo! You think I'm the only one that is sick of your poor poor me BS?


Please post the head banging into brick wall emoticon.

[BadgerBob82]

Q: Your last post was funny. Write more posts like that!

[O-townClown]

Snowed, at what age do you feel the better players need to play with and against each other in order for the state to turn out more elite players?

Bo, is an association that only practices once a week indicative of a systemic problem at the Affiliate level? Or is it more of a failure at the local program level?

Q, you see only six teams. Per age group or per birthyear? If the Affiliate makes a move from present residency rules to full-blown choice it could be 50. I don't know if they are coded Tier I, Tier II, Rec, or something else. If posts on this board are an indication, there are many people anxious to have program choice because the local association fails them.

[SCBlueLiner]

First, I've seen "Tier 1 players". Nothing special. We just had one leave our association to play in Chicago. I've seen better players in other associations playing Tier 2.

Second, there are most certainly kids that have bought their way onto teams. Absolutely. These teams need to cash-flow. There are also kids who can't play Tier 1 AAA because their checkbooks aren't big enough.

Third, why should summer hockey only be reserved for the "elite"? Who determines if the kid is "elite"? So an 8 to 12 year old kid can be deemed elite and get to play in the summer and another "not elite" has to hang them up until winter? Stupid idea since these kids don't even have all their hair. It almost makes me love it when little Johnny Squirt elite gets passed by in Bantams. Let all kids who want to play in summer try out and play. There seems to be more and more levels of tournaments each year and coaches are figuring out where they should be playing.