Does enrollment numbers really make you better in hockey?

36Guy · Post by **36Guy** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:32 pm

It would be interesting to hear feedback on enrollment numbers for hockey. There has been a lot of feedback on how large enrollments are unfair? Look at the section teams below and what their enrollment numbers possibly could be.

Hockey, Girls
Class: AA
Section: 1
9 teams in this section
AA Map
Administered by Region 1AA

Farmington High School
Lakeville North High School
Lakeville South High School
Owatonna High School
Rochester Century High School
Rochester Mayo High School

Coop: 234 "Dodge County Wildcats"
Blooming Prairie High School
Byron High School
Dover-Eyota High School
Hayfield High School
Kasson-Mantorville High School (HOST)
Pine Island High School
Triton High School
Zumbrota-Mazeppa High School

Coop: 376 "Rochester John Marshall"
Rochester John Marshall (HOST)
Rochester Lourdes High School

Coop: 490 "Winona Winhawks"
Cotter High School
Hope Lutheran High School
La Crescent High School
Saint Charles High School
Winona High School (HOST)

Hockey, Girls
Class: AA
Section: 2
8 teams in this section
AA Map
Administered by Region 3AA

Bloomington Jefferson High School
Bloomington Kennedy High School
Eden Prairie High School
Edina High School
Shakopee High School

Coop: 86 "Chaska/Chanhassen Storm Hawks"
Chanhassen High School
Chaska High School (HOST)

Coop: 363 "Prior Lake High School"
Belle Plaine High School
Prior Lake High School (HOST)

Coop: 643 "Holy Family Catholic/Waconia Wild Fire"
Holy Family Catholic High School (HOST)
Waconia High School

Hockey, Girls
Class: AA
Section: 3
9 teams in this section
AA Map
Administered by Region 3AA

Apple Valley High School
Burnsville High School
Eagan High School
East Ridge High School
Eastview High School
Hastings High School
Park High School
Rosemount High School
Woodbury High School

Hockey, Girls
Class: AA
Section: 4
9 teams in this section
AA Map
Administered by Region 4AA

Cretin-Derham Hall High School
Hill-Murray School
North High School
Roseville Area High School
Stillwater Area High School
Tartan High School
White Bear Lake Area High School

Coop: 295 "Minneapolis Novas"
Minneapolis Edison High School
Minneapolis North Community H.S.
Minneapolis Patrick Henry H. S.
Minneapolis Roosevelt High School
Minneapolis South High School (HOST)
Minneapolis Southwest High School
Minneapolis Washburn High School

Coop: 405 "St. Paul Blades"
Saint Paul Central High School
Saint Paul Como Park H.S. (HOST)
Saint Paul Harding High School
Saint Paul Highland Park
Saint Paul Johnson High School

Hockey, Girls
Class: AA
Section: 5
9 teams in this section
AA Map
Administered by Region 5AA

Andover High School
Anoka High School
Centennial High School
Champlin Park High School
Coon Rapids High School
Irondale High School
Mounds View High School

Coop: 52 "Blaine High School"
Blaine High School (HOST)
Legacy Christian Academy

Coop: 433 "Spring Lake Park-St. Anthony Village"
Spring Lake Park High School (HOST)
St. Anthony Village High School

Hockey, Girls
Class: AA
Section: 6
8 teams in this section
AA Map
Administered by Region 6AA

Benilde-St. Margaret's School
Hopkins High School
Maple Grove High School
Minnetonka High School
Wayzata High School

Coop: 69 "Buffalo Bison"
Buffalo High School (HOST)
Delano High School
Maple Lake High School
Rockford High School

Coop: 345 "North Metro Stars"
Brooklyn Center High School
Columbia Heights High School
Fridley High School
Osseo High School
Park Center High School (HOST)

Coop: 374 "Robbinsdale Armstrong/Cooper"
FAIR School
Heritage Christian Academy
Providence Academy
Robbinsdale Armstrong High School (HOST)
Robbinsdale Cooper High School

Hockey, Girls
Class: AA
Section: 7
7 teams in this section
AA Map
Administered by Region 7AA

Forest Lake High School
Coop: 75 "CambridgeIsanti/Mora/Pine City"
Cambridge-Isanti High School (HOST)
Mora High School
Pine City High School

Coop: 103 "C-E-C Lumberjacks"
Carlton High School
Cloquet High School (HOST)
Esko High School

Coop: 134 "Duluth Northern Stars"
Duluth Denfeld High School
Duluth East High School (HOST)

Coop: 146 "Elk River/Zimmerman"
Elk River High School (HOST)
Zimmerman High School

Coop: 191 "Grand Rapids-Greenway"
Grand Rapids High School (HOST)
Greenway High School

Coop: 398 "ST.Francis/North Branch"
North Branch High School
Saint Francis High School (HOST)

Hockey, Girls
Class: AA
Section: 8
8 teams in this section
AA Map
Administered by Region 8AA

Bemidji High School
Moorhead High School
Roseau High School

Coop: 60 "Brainerd/Little Falls Flying Warriors"
Brainerd High School (HOST)
Little Falls High School
Pillager High School

Coop: 380 "River Lakes Stars"
Albany High School
Belgrade-Brooten-Elrosa H.S.
Eden Valley-Watkins High School
New London-Spicer High School
Paynesville Area High School
Rocori High School (HOST)
Saint John's Prep

Coop: 396 "Saint Cloud Icebreakers"
Saint Cloud Apollo High School
Saint Cloud Cathedral High School
Saint Cloud Tech High School (HOST)

Coop: 402 "North Wright County River Hawks"
Annandale High School
Monticello High School
Saint Michael-Albertville H.S. (HOST)

Coop: 414 "Sartell/Sauk Rapids Stormin Sabres"
Sartell-Saint Stephen High School (HOST)
Sauk Rapids-Rice High School

Racki2016 · Post by **Racki2016** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:40 pm

only need enrollment of 50 if 20 of them can tangle, snipe, celly, and 2 can stop the puck.

Bulldog3489 · Post by **Bulldog3489** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:03 pm

The MSHSL website lists enrollments fo 2011-2012. If the info is accurate, there is a 800 plus student drop in just the top nine schools.

Wayzata High School 3060
Eden Prairie High School 3007
Minnetonka High School 2750
Stillwater Area High School 2670
Champlin Park High School 2571
Blaine High School 2551
Burnsville High School 2530
Edina High School 2436
White Bear Lake Area High School 2257

36Guy · Post by **36Guy** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:14 pm

Bulldog3489 wrote:The MSHSL website lists enrollments fo 2011-2012. If the info is accurate, there is a 800 plus student drop in just the top nine schools.

Wayzata High School 3060
Eden Prairie High School 3007
Minnetonka High School 2750
Stillwater Area High School 2670
Champlin Park High School 2571
Blaine High School 2551
Burnsville High School 2530
Edina High School 2436
White Bear Lake Area High School 2257

Thank you for the observation. Here is 2013 numbers...a little deceptive on some schools because the MSHSL does not tell you weather they are 9-12 grades or 10-12 grades. A 9-12 grade school with 2500 kids is the same a HS 10-12 with 1900 kids. Example: Coon Rapids is #5 with 2800 kids and is 9-12 grades and Maple Grove is #29 with 1847 kids and 10-12 grades

But....the question was, does it matter?

1) Eden Prairie High School - Eden Prairie, MN - Total Enrollment: 3267
2) Champlin Park Senior High School - Champlin, MN - Total Enrollment: 3218
3) Wayzata High School - Plymouth, MN - Total Enrollment: 3073
4) Blaine Senior High School - Blaine, MN - Total Enrollment: 2880
5) Coon Rapids High School - Coon Rapids, MN - Total Enrollment: 2863
6) Minnetonka High School - Minnetonka, MN - Total Enrollment: 2600
7) Anoka High School - Anoka, MN - Total Enrollment: 2544

Burnsville High School - Burnsville, MN - Total Enrollment: 2429
9) Apple Valley High School - Apple Valley, MN - Total Enrollment: 2356
10) Robbinsdale Armstrong Senior High School - Plymouth, MN - Total Enrollment: 2341
11) Eagan High School - Eagan, MN - Total Enrollment: 2341
12) Eastview High School - Apple Valley, MN - Total Enrollment: 2329
13) Stillwater Senior High School - Stillwater, MN - Total Enrollment: 2248
14) Brainerd Senior High School - Brainerd, MN - Total Enrollment: 2232
15) Centennial Senior - Circle Pines, MN - Total Enrollment: 2216
16) Roseville Area Senior High School - Roseville, MN - Total Enrollment: 2210
17) Harding Senior High School - Saint Paul, MN - Total Enrollment: 2138
18) North Senior High School - North Saint Paul, MN - Total Enrollment: 2133
19) Hopkins Senior High School - Minnetonka, MN - Total Enrollment: 2087
20) Central Senior High School - Saint Paul, MN - Total Enrollment: 2068

Bulldog3489 · Post by **Bulldog3489** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:20 pm

The MSHSL numbers I put up include grades 9 through 12.

The MSHSL reduces enrollment numbers by 40% of the free or reduced lunch counts. So the enrollment figures I put up reflect the actual number of students partially lowered by low income figures. I'm sure we can agree having a large number of families qualifying for free lunches won't help your hockey team.

In other words, Wayzata, Eden Prairie and Minnetonka have a signficant enrollment advantage for girls hockey. Unless you want to include kids that can't afford to play hockey.

observer · Post by **observer** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:30 pm

Not seeing any connection. Not sure what you're getting at.

Hockey players develop primarily with their youth associations along with other off-season training opportunities. Some of the schools you mention are also in big communities and have big youth hockey programs primarily feeding the community based high schools.

sinbin · Post by **sinbin** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:45 pm

Then, of course, how many of those players from large public school districts enroll in private schools? Yes, big schools can probably take the hit better than smaller school districts (if those hits are proportional to enrollment), but there are a plethora of competing factors working besides enrollment.

observer · Post by **observer** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:48 pm

how many of those players from large public school districts enroll in private schools?

Well, all of them.

36Guy · Post by **36Guy** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:09 pm

Bulldog3489 wrote:The MSHSL numbers I put up include grades 9 through 12.

The MSHSL reduces enrollment numbers by 40% of the free or reduced lunch counts. So the enrollment figures I put up reflect the actual number of students partially lowered by low income figures. I'm sure we can agree having a large number of families qualifying for free lunches won't help your hockey team.

In other words, Wayzata, Eden Prairie and Minnetonka have a signficant enrollment advantage for girls hockey. Unless you want to include kids that can't afford to play hockey.

Ok...trying to stay neutral on this one. But like every other post we've gone right back to blowing up the Lake Conference teams. If you look at the blog there are countless large schools (example: coon rapids, CP, Burnsville..sorry) and countless Co-ops with enrollments from 2500-5000 kids. How would you explain their lack of success with such huge numbers. Or....you could just spin it around on Tonka, Ep and Wayzata again????? If it is about numbers how do you explain combined enrollments of 5000+ kids not having success? There are currently 25 teams with a larger "enrollment" than the 3 teams you just mentioned that are still ranked lower.

Sooooo......the question..does a larger enrollment make for an unfair advantage??????

Tigers33 · Post by **Tigers33** » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:45 pm

Dumb topic...

The amount of kids that tryout has more of an impact then the size of the school. The size of the youth program has a big impact.

playoutdoors · Post by **playoutdoors** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:44 am

The big difference in comparing big schools to co-ops, to me, is that in the big schools when your classmates are having success and fun you are more likely to join in and try it, adding to the numbers of a program and possibly picking up some good athletes. In a small school that is part of a co-op, if no one in your class plays, you may not even if you are interested. Many of the smaller schools have zero competing at many grades.

observer · Post by **observer** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:25 am

when your classmates are having success and fun you are more likely to join in and try it

The days of a 9th grader slipping on the skates and giving it a try are long gone. Girls now start at 5 years old just like the boys. The only way to grow girls hockey participation numbers, no matter where your daughter lives and goes to school, is through recruiting 5 and 6 year old girls to your youth association.

Bandy · Post by **Bandy** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:41 am

observer wrote: ...The days of a 9th grader slipping on the skates and giving it a try are long gone. Girls now start at 5 years old just like the boys. The only way to grow girls hockey participation numbers, no matter where your daughter lives and goes to school, is through recruiting 5 and 6 year old girls to your youth association.

Agree. Youth hockey is where it all starts.

Culture & demographics are more important than numbers. If the culture & demographics are equal, then a school that's twice as big as another school will have an obvious advantage. I'd say being raised in a town that has a strong hockey culture is more of an "unfair advantage" than size.

Take Warroad -- almost identical in size to Belle Plaine. Warroad is a perennial hockey powerhouse. BP is not, and has to co-op w/ a big suburban school just to field a program.

Roseau has enrolment of 651, and plays up (AA). Rocori has 857, but has to co-op with 6 other schools (River Lakes, total enrollment 3126) to field a team. Hockey culture!!!!

Minneapolis & St Paul, and some inner ring 'burbs, are way different cultures than they were 30, 40, 50 years ago. Depending on the background, soccer, hoops, or no sports for girls may beat out ice hockey.

Then there's money. Youth hockey is unaffordable for many families. Tonka, Edina, and EP have an "unfair advantage" relative to less affluent suburbs. Minnesota Hockey should levy a cake-eater tax & subsidize players from low-income families. That would be fairer; more just.

Silent But Deadly · Post by **Silent But Deadly** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:49 am

Bandy wrote:Take Warroad -- almost identical in size to Belle Plaine. Warroad is a perennial hockey powerhouse. BP is not, and has to co-op w/ a big suburban school just to field a program.

Bad example.......for obvious reasons!!!!

esox101 · Post by **esox101** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:14 am

Bandy wrote:
Roseau has enrolment of 651, and plays up (AA). Rocori has 857, but has to co-op with 6 other schools (River Lakes, total enrollment 3126) to field a team. Hockey culture!!!!

Minneapolis & St Paul, and some inner ring 'burbs, are way different cultures than they were 30, 40, 50 years ago. Depending on the background, soccer, hoops, or no sports for girls may beat out ice hockey.

There's a valid point here, but it's only part of the picture.

I posted some thoughts on this in the section realignment thread so I won't repeat it all here, but one significant factor is how youth hockey programs feed into high school programs. You happened to point out the two examples I know best - River Lakes (my niece and nephew played there) and the St Paul Blades.

River Lakes covers a wide geographic area, that, at least when my niece and nephew were playing, was mostly fed by one youth assoc. The coop with that many schools because that's what it takes to get enough bodies to field a team. But on paper, they're a AA program.

So why does a program like the Blades, with an on paper enrollment of around 4,000 students struggle to field a varsity and JV?

Demographics are a factor for sure, and the slow demise of District 1 youth hockey bears that out. But there are still viable, competitive YHAs in St Paul with a development program more than capable of producing decent numbers of quality high school players, and two of them - Como/Johnson and Highland - are in the Blades' part of town. So theoretically the youth programs at the base of the pyramid are there.

The challenge is in the number of high school programs youth hockey in St Paul supports. I might be one or two off, but by my count there are 15 players from last year's Highland Central's 14U team playing high school hockey this season. Four of them went on to play for the Blades. The rest are scattered among 4 or 5 private school teams.

Central High School alone has an enrollment of 1700. Two of them are on the girls hockey team.

I want to be clear again that this isn't a criticism of private schools. I certainly don't begrudge a parent's choice on where to send their kid to school.

My point is that it's far more complex than counting the number of warm bodies that walk through the door, and even saying that the strength or weakness of youth hockey is a deciding factor oversimplifies the story.
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Goalie-Dad · Post by **Goalie-Dad** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:27 am

Tigers33 wrote:
Dumb topic...
The amount of kids that tryout has more of an impact then the size of the school. The size of the youth program has a big impact.

Winning is mostly about team depth than good players, especially at girls hockey. Just look at HM last year with Hanna Brandt.

The big schools (or Coop programs) have better 3rd and 4th lines. So they win more games.

observer · Post by **observer** » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:03 am

But there are still viable, competitive YHAs in St Paul with a development program more than capable of producing decent numbers of quality high school players, and two of them - Como/Johnson and Highland - are in the Blades' part of town.

Until very recently there was no girls program at Johnson Youth Hockey Association, maybe never. That was a huge mistake by Johnson and has left the HS program very shorthanded. I don't know how many girls, and girls teams, Como Youth Association has had. Highland Central has had a solid girls program for years but that part of town has a history of attending Cretin, SPA and now Visitation.

There are now just 2 youth hockey associations in St. Paul. The Johnson/Como website shows just a small U8 team and maybe 6-8 girls in Mites.

http://johnsoncomohockey.com

I know it's hard but they have to set a goal of 20 new mite girls each year for the HS team to have success, even stay alive, in the future.

HS success is based entirely on the number of mite girls in the local youth association. There is no association function more important than recruiting. None.