Private School Trash talk thread

[rainier]

Here's another tidbit of info for you Class A Private School Defenders (CAPSDs). I was leafing through the 7A playoff program I got today and I happen to notice they listed the girls' hockey state tourney results from the last decade. Not being much of a girls' hockey fan, I was surprised and then not surprised to see who has been winning the majority of the Class A titles the last 10 years...Metro Private Schools! (Gasp!)

In fact, if you combine the boys Class A winners since 2000 with the girls Class A winners since its inception in 2002, you find that private schools from a major metropolitan area have won titles 18 out of 25 times. Great job guys!

I now see how this story goes. Private schools were founded so they could create their own little perfect worlds. They get to choose who they let in to keep out the riff-raff, special needs kids, and other unwashed undesirables. Then they charge exorbitant sums of money so they can have student/teacher ratios so low that it ensures the kids have their hands held the entire way through school. Then the kids are indoctrinated with marketing slogans so they can parrot to other potential customers all of the selling points of their school.

Everything was going great until some of them realized there was one area of the high school experience they had yet to gain any respect in: athletics. They gnashed their teeth and grumbled until one day a gift fell from the sky: Class A hockey. All of a sudden here was their chance to shine.

Now they would no longer have to compete with all the big mean public schools surrounding them, schools that were almost all in AA because they were also located in a major metropolitan area. This was too good to be true! They could now play against teams like Eveleth, TRF, and Alexandria, towns with fixed talent pools 1/1000th the size of that in the major metropolitan area.

This was going to be like taking candy from a public school-attending baby.

The private schools funneled money into their hockey programs, enticing kids from the metro with free tuition, brand new facilities, and the other trappings their perfect educational world offered. Kids came from all over the major metropolitan area; they were drawing top players from multiple AA-sized areas yet they could remain single A. The final piece of their perfect world was put into place.

They started to dominate just as they had planned, winning title after title, putting teams on the ice loaded with future D1 players. But then something went awry. Instead of gaining respect from the MN HS hockey community, one of the most fervent HS fan bases in the country, they became pariahs, as radio personalities, TV analysts, and even the Godfather of MN hockey himself Lou Nanne began to publicly question the morality of All-Star teams from a major metropolitan area playing in Class A. Hockey fans groaned as they watched the annual quarterfinal blowouts in which a school from a town of 5,000 got embarrassed by a private school located in a major metropolitan area of 2.5 million people.

Some schools responded to the shaming by moving up, while others insisted that they were just following the rules and that their titles were as legitimate as anyone else's. Incredulous observers looked on as these private schools did the impossible: they had made themselves even more unlikable than before.

In their quest to create educational utopia, these private schools had reached for the sun only to end up getting burned.

Perhaps there is a reason it took STA 121 years of existence in a major metropolitan area before they won any kind of hockey trophy. They were biding their time, waiting for the right advantageous opportunity to strike.

Oh dear Cadets (and other CAPSDs), do not be offended by this tale of greed, immorality, and shame. It is not meant to do that, it is only meant to take you Ex Umbris In Veritatem.

Wishing you the best this postseason,
Your simple-minded straw man, Rainier

Rainier connecting the dots and uncovering the vast Catholic conspiracy to take over the hockey world, bravo!



It all makes sense!!! It all makes sense!!!!

No doubt that the Bergerbilders and the lizard people are in on this one!

Best get both Alex Jones and David Icke on the horn, pronto!

What was it you said about staying on topic?

And when it comes to Info Wars, you would be Poland.

Feel like commenting on public vs private school hockey? Have you mentioned a single word about high school hockey yet? It is the subject of this entire forum, you know. Do you have a favorite team? What did you think of the Tier I-Tier II arrangement back in the early 90's? Do you know what icing is? I know Fox and Friends don't usually discuss whether Austin Poganski will be able to lead his Crusaders past Jake Zeleznikar's Hawks for the 5A title, but I would expect someone who posts on a high school hockey forum to occasionally post something about high school hockey.

I'm still trying to remember what it was you said about staying on topic?

[thorhockey]

Let's just take it to the ice where it belongs. Over in 30 seconds

[rainier]

Would love to hear a response to rainier's challenge. I know it appears very slightly off-topic, but let's hear it. If we need to start a new thread with an appropriate topic, then I'm sure that can be done. However, the moderators want this thread to be where all this private/public debate takes place. So I think it could happen here. This would especially be pertinent to sucky public schools in sections 3a and 6a. Maybe we can finally take this "model" to our high school and youth programs and reconstruct them into a perennial winner.

Thank you for bringing this up Mite-dad, I hadn't considered that HSHW's plan also had the potential to bolster areas still growing their hockey tradition. With the STA blueprint, that apparently everyone is capable of using, it won't be long before Luverne and River Lakes will each have 9 Elite Leaguers on their teams also. It may even get to the point where kids from around the country don't leave their homes to go play juniors, they leave their homes to go to play at Windom.

I hope he (or anyone else) will show us how this can be done.

[HShockeywatcher]

I'm not going to quote everything, but I'll respond to most (everything eventually, if I don't get to it now.

1a. Your reasoning for Hibbing opting up all those years was because they could compete with the very best in the state. I see this in three Class A schools right now. There have been others in the past, but we can stay current. So, if you are arguing for Breck, Hermantown, and St Thomas (who has) all the opt up, I can follow that line of thinking 100%.

I would say you could add Marshall/Lourdes to the list simply because in AA they'd be relatively in the same place in their new sections as they are now and the added draw of AA could help them, but they are in no way competing with the best in state as these other teams are.

1b. Hibbing is a small town, right? Slightly bigger than Hermantown at the last census, but not sure about the time they did opt up. Your line of thinking shouldn't change with population.

So, you don't want to account for the areas around Hermantown that the players have actually come from but yet you want to include the whole metro area (areas that St Thomas doesn't get players from) in your number? Seems...a bit off.
Additionally, they aren't the only school in the metro. There are others drawing from the "large metropolitan area" too.

You clearly don't have the experience in the "large metro area" you keep referring to and yet you speak like you do. They are different. I admit it is an interesting discussion with no easy answer. Going on and on about how St Thomas should opt up, though, doesn't add credibility for obvious reasons...

2. Replace "unless" with "unlike." My apologies for mistyping one word, although you seem to have gotten the point.
It's not a question, it's a statement. It's "helps" in that your whole argument for why Hibbing opted up was they knew what was coming up the pipeline and that they could compete for years.

Teams like Holy Angels and Cretin come to mind.
All this is ultimately mute, as St Thomas has opted up and will likely stay there unless their facility burns down.
St Thomas was in AA in the first two years of the class system. I have no idea why they didn't continue, but it was likely for similar reasons.
Sure, they know the kids who are currently enrolled, but beyond that, nothing is known for sure. There is a monetary difference between a lot of these schools. And they don't know about the much younger kids, like the public communities do.

-So every team who has a shot to make state should opt up?

[rainier]

I'm not going to quote everything, but I'll respond to most (everything eventually, if I don't get to it now.

1a. Your reasoning for Hibbing opting up all those years was because they could compete with the very best in the state (No, my reasoning is that they had a reasonable expectation to get to state in AA, and I think that should be the criteria.). I see this in three Class A schools right now. There have been others in the past, but we can stay current. So, if you are arguing for Breck, Hermantown, and St Thomas (who has) all the opt up, I can follow that line of thinking 100%.

I would say you could add Marshall/Lourdes to the list simply because in AA they'd be relatively in the same place in their new sections as they are now and the added draw of AA could help them, but they are in no way competing with the best in state as these other teams are. Not true, if you can get to state in AA, you can compete, just ask Lakeville South.

1b. Hibbing is a small town, right? Slightly bigger than Hermantown at the last census, but not sure about the time they did opt up. Your line of thinking shouldn't change with population. (My line of thinking shouldn't change with population? Are you saying population doesn't matter? Isn't this why we have two classes?)

So, you don't want to account for the areas around Hermantown that the players have actually come from but yet you want to include the whole metro area (areas that St Thomas doesn't get players from) in your number? Seems...a bit off. (If you want to go to Hermantown high school, you have to live in Hermantown, which has a population of 9,000. And even if STA only draws from the east metro, that is still 1.25 million. These numbers are orders of magnitude apart and do not invite comparison.)
Additionally, they aren't the only school in the metro. There are others drawing from the "large metropolitan area" too. (And 98% of them are in Class AA.)

You clearly don't have the experience in the "large metro area" you keep referring to and yet you speak like you do. (I lived in Minneapolis and St. Paul for 6 years, so the reason I speak like I have experience in a large metro area is because I do.) They are different. (Yep, one has 2.5 million people and the other has much, much less.) I admit it is an interesting discussion with no easy answer. Going on and on about how St Thomas should opt up, though, doesn't add credibility for obvious reasons... (STA is the poster child for all metro privates to move up, I am kind of speaking of all of them when I refer to STA. And I acknowledge they are moving up, but I still take exception to those who claim there was/is nothing immoral about all the titles they and other metro privates won and continue to win.)

2. Replace "unless" with "unlike." My apologies for mistyping one word, although you seem to have gotten the point.
It's not a question, it's a statement. It's "helps" in that your whole argument for why Hibbing opted up was they knew what was coming up the pipeline and that they could compete for years. (Once again I seriously doubt the Vanellis are up all night on Labor Day wondering what players will show up at school on Tuesday. And the opt up is only a two year commitment. If the bottom falls out, you don't have to suffer long.)

Teams like Holy Angels and Cretin come to mind. (Weren't you supposed to list other public schools that should be opting up?)
All this is ultimately mute (moot), as St Thomas has opted up and will likely stay there unless their facility burns down.
St Thomas was in AA in the first two years of the class system. I have no idea why they didn't continue, but it was likely for similar reasons.
Sure, they know the kids who are currently enrolled, but beyond that, nothing is known for sure. (Don't they enroll in 7th grade? How much more advance notice do they need? Would ultrasounds of pregnant mothers help?) There is a monetary difference between a lot of these schools. And they don't know about the much younger kids, like the public communities do.

-So every team who has a shot to make state should opt up? (If you have a reasonable expectation to make it to state in AA, I think you should do so. That is why Rapids, Roseau, BSM, Hill, etc. opt up and is why Breck, T-G, Lourdes, D. Marshall, Blake, etc. should do the same. I know there is some gray area here, but this is the type of situation where a moral compass comes in handy to navigate through it. )

Enough with these ancillary questions already. The "Rags to Riches" challenge awaits you. To keep discussing these side questions is like discussing what cologne to wear before going into a gunfight. The real issue is ready to be tackled, and you are Ray Lewis in his prime; make it happen!

[Ogie]

Rainier connecting the dots and uncovering the vast Catholic conspiracy to take over the hockey world, bravo!



It all makes sense!!! It all makes sense!!!!

No doubt that the Bergerbilders and the lizard people are in on this one!

Best get both Alex Jones and David Icke on the horn, pronto!

What was it you said about staying on topic?

And when it comes to Info Wars, you would be Poland.

Feel like commenting on public vs private school hockey? Have you mentioned a single word about high school hockey yet? It is the subject of this entire forum, you know. Do you have a favorite team? What did you think of the Tier I-Tier II arrangement back in the early 90's? Do you know what icing is? I know Fox and Friends don't usually discuss whether Austin Poganski will be able to lead his Crusaders past Jake Zeleznikar's Hawks for the 5A title, but I would expect someone who posts on a high school hockey forum to occasionally post something about high school hockey.

I'm still trying to remember what it was you said about staying on topic?

You were the one that floated the kooky conspiracy theory, not me.

So, is the Archdiocese in on this evil scheme?...The Vatican?...Is this why the Pope is stepping down, to keep this heinous treachery under wraps?

Is the board of the MSHSL a bunch of pod people from The Pleiades?

Did you see Willard Ikola on the grassy knoll?

Would a congressional investigation even be worth it, seeing as they're all members of the Illuminati anyways?

Inquiring minds need to know!

[rainier]

No doubt that the Bergerbilders and the lizard people are in on this one!

Best get both Alex Jones and David Icke on the horn, pronto!

What was it you said about staying on topic?

And when it comes to Info Wars, you would be Poland.

Feel like commenting on public vs private school hockey? Have you mentioned a single word about high school hockey yet? It is the subject of this entire forum, you know. Do you have a favorite team? What did you think of the Tier I-Tier II arrangement back in the early 90's? Do you know what icing is? I know Fox and Friends don't usually discuss whether Austin Poganski will be able to lead his Crusaders past Jake Zeleznikar's Hawks for the 5A title, but I would expect someone who posts on a high school hockey forum to occasionally post something about high school hockey.

I'm still trying to remember what it was you said about staying on topic?

You were the one that floated the kooky conspiracy theory, not me.

So, is the Archdiocese in on this evil scheme?...The Vatican?...Is this why the Pope is stepping down, to keep this heinous treachery under wraps?

Is the board of the MSHSL a bunch of pod people from The Pleiades?

Did you see Willard Ikola on the grassy knoll?

Would a congressional investigation even be worth it, seeing as they're all members of the Illuminati anyways?

Inquiring minds need to know!

With your dull intellect and complete inability to comment on anything remotely concerned with high school hockey, I have narrowed down who you might be to two options:

1. An unfrozen caveman actually named Ogie, who is learning English by listening to conservative talk radio.

Or

2. HSHW's cat, who he has taught to type and cut and paste photos from Google Images.

I can come to no other conclusions as long as you refuse to discuss actual hs hockey topics. You started by chastising me for ad hominem attacks, and since then you have done nothing but spew them yourself. (Hilariously ineffectively, I might add.)

Please, please outline for me how an outstate "gubbamint" school can implement the metro private school blueprint to achieve sustained hockey success. You might be busy trying to discover fire or else kicking sand to cover your droppings, I'm not sure, but please, if you can, provide some hs hockey commentary.

[HShockeywatcher]

-If you can expect to make it to state in AA, you should be in AA?
I'd be interested in hearing which section you think Breck, Blake or Totino would be placed in in which they would have that expectation.

-You and I disagree. I can live with that. A team like Lourdes or Marshall would likely have had a decent shot at making it to state many times in the last few years. I know our East fans would disagree, but there's a good case to be made that being in AA would've helped. Being competitive and making it are very different, imo. But I can agree to disagree.

-Ever since I joined this message board I've had "success in hockey has nothing to do with enrollment/population" beaten into me by those who claim to know lots more than I. Now I'm supposed to take the exact opposite from someone who has been so respectful to me?

-Apparently Hermantown does accept OE according to another poster. So, believing this poster, your claim isn't true (which I thought it was actually). This is a difference between public and private schools. But I would say that students/families not originally from Hermantown were drawn there...for various reasons. If I were to move up to that area, it's likely where I'd want to end up; there's a good chance I wouldn't send my children to private schools there either. They do an amazing job of drawing families to them.
Curious where you get this 98% figure...

-Living in an area doesn't give you first hand experience in the schools public or private. My comments are about your experiences with the goings on and choices of students in private schools. The claims you are making are false for many students/families.
I lived outside of the metro for 7 years. I don't claim to be an expert on any of the communities I lived in.

-We can disagree about it being okay to be successful in Class A. I still don't buy the "private schools can't be successful in Class A" argument. There is a very fine line between how much is okay and how much is too much.
We have a difference of opinion. Not the end of the world.

-It's not about who "shows up on Tuesday," it's about who will enroll in their school the next two years. Like I said, I don't think it's necessarily a reason for successful schools to not opt up, but it is a reality that differentiates public schools from private schools.
On top of that, even if you know who currently plays hockey in 9th grade, or the younger students have committed to your school, they are spread all over the place. Not really an arguing point, simply a reality worth noting.

-Nope.
Yes, St Thomas has a middle school. The 8th grade is half the size of the 9th and 7th is usually half that size. Some other private schools have middle schools and grade schools, but their enrollments aren't nearly the same as the high schools in most cases.

-So you don't think there are public schools who could reasonably expect to make it to state in the AA section they'd be put in? I can think of more public schools than private that fit that bill...
Also, I'm still curious what section you think Blake, Breck, Totino, etc would be put into that they would reasonably expect to make state. With that definition, the teams definitely change. I would also add that with that definition, I am more okay with St Thomas staying down. If you think they could've predicted making state in a section with Eagan, Apple Valley, and Cretin the last three years, then you'd probably be in the minority.

[rockcrusher]

Hermantown USED to accept open enrollments, my point was there are kids on my street in DULUTH that go to school and play youth and high school hockey in Hermantown. I don't believe you can open enroll to hermantown anymore, I think their school are at capacity. Maybe a hawk fan from down the road could fill us in.

I must clarify this even more, these kids open enrolled a few years ago, not recently.

[Ogie]

With your dull intellect and complete inability to comment on anything remotely concerned with high school hockey, I have narrowed down who you might be to two options:

1. An unfrozen caveman actually named Ogie, who is learning English by listening to conservative talk radio.

Or

2. HSHW's cat, who he has taught to type and cut and paste photos from Google Images.

I can come to no other conclusions as long as you refuse to discuss actual hs hockey topics. You started by chastising me for ad hominem attacks, and since then you have done nothing but spew them yourself. (Hilariously ineffectively, I might add.)

Please, please outline for me how an outstate "gubbamint" school can implement the metro private school blueprint to achieve sustained hockey success. You might be busy trying to discover fire or else kicking sand to cover your droppings, I'm not sure, but please, if you can, provide some hs hockey commentary.

You wouldn't know intellect if it crawled up you leg and bit your butt....And your adolescent ignorance, insolence, hubris, bigotry, Freudian projection, complete lack of intellectual curiosity and introspection all rolled into one can't substitute for it.

All that's left for anyone with a shred of intellect to do is to sit back, point and chuckle.

[rainier]

-If you can expect to make it to state in AA, you should be in AA? This is the second time you have misquoted me on this point, which means you need to either read more carefully or else start being honest. Pay close attention to this statement so you don't get confused: If you have a reasonable chance to make it to state out of your section in AA on a reasonably consistent basis, then I think you should opt up. This is what Roseau, Grand Rapids, BSM, etc. have done.

I'd be interested in hearing which section you think Breck, Blake or Totino would be placed in in which they would have that expectation.
I think these teams, on a reasonably consistent basis, could be top 3 seed material in 1AA, 2AA, 3AA, 4AA, and 5AA. And it wouldn't be unthinkable for any of them to be in 7AA, given there are already metro teams in it, and Breck did beat the #1 seed in 7AA this season. I know that 8AA is too far, but Breck and Totino would be the top two seeds in that section this season. And, as you said yourself, a move to AA would make them more attractive and would strengthen their programs, therefore my estimate of which sections they could compete in is a conservative one.

-You and I disagree. I can live with that. A team like Lourdes or Marshall would likely have had a decent shot at making it to state many times in the last few years. I know our East fans would disagree, but there's a good case to be made that being in AA would've helped. (There it is.) Being competitive and making it are very different, imo. (Is this an STA fan's fear of being put in 4AA?) But I can agree to disagree.


-Ever since I joined this message board I've had "success in hockey has nothing to do with enrollment/population" beaten into me by those who claim to know lots more than I. ("Nothing" to do with it? Who was saying this? If I keep telling you I'm Bill Gates' Maserati mechanic, does that mean you should believe me?) Now I'm supposed to take the exact opposite from someone who has been so respectful to me? (I give respect to those who earn it, not demand it.)

-Apparently Hermantown does accept OE according to another poster. So, believing this poster, your claim isn't true (which I thought it was actually). (Nope, Rockcrusher's post clearly states that Hermantown no longer takes OE students and hasn't for a few years, yet their youth programs are still excellent even without this so-called rich source of talent.)This is a difference between public and private schools. (What difference are you talking about? Please have the courtesy to be precise, otherwise you come off as willfully obtuse in order to disguise your lack of an effective argument.)But I would say that students/families not originally from Hermantown were drawn there...for various reasons. If I were to move up to that area, it's likely where I'd want to end up; there's a good chance I wouldn't send my children to private schools there either. They do an amazing job of drawing families to them. (That's great, but we're still left with a town of 9,000 vs a major metropolitan area, a difference so incredibly large that it makes your attempts to draw some type of equality between them as laughable as they are meaningless.)
Curious where you get this 98% figure... (Okay, you tell me, of all the communities where STA kids are coming from, what % of them are AA?)

-Living in an area doesn't give you first hand experience in the schools public or private. (No, actually it does, especially when you have good friends that work at both public and private schools in the area.) My comments are about your experiences with the goings on and choices of students in private schools. The claims you are making are false for many students/families.
I lived outside of the metro for 7 years. I don't claim to be an expert on any of the communities I lived in. (Didn't get out much, eh? But yet you sure talk as if you are an expert in small community public schools, since you are so certain that they have the resources and infrastructure to build programs as strong as an STA or Breck. Do you know enough to formulate and informed opinion or not?)

-We can disagree about it being okay to be successful in Class A. I still don't buy the "private schools can't be successful in Class A" argument. (That's why I have such a problem with you CAPSDs, you don't see anything wrong with your resource rich, huge talent pool-having private schools masquerading as Class A schools. You pretend that you are poor little beleaguered islands of Class A trapped in a sea of AA, and that your pummeling of small community schools is a result of failings by the small communities and not your insatiable hunger for glory and notoriety.) There is a very fine line between how much is okay and how much is too much. (And many of the metro Class A privates crossed that line years ago and are now thousands of miles past it.)
We have a difference of opinion. (And a much different way of comprehending reality.) Not the end of the world.

-It's not about who "shows up on Tuesday," it's about who will enroll in their school the next two years. (So, the window of doubt is two years is it? Well wouldn't you know it, the opt up commitment is also two years. What a happy coincidence! That means metro privates can opt up when they know they have a reasonable chance at going to state, and still have the perfect amount of time to opt down when times get tough, thereby saving them from ever having to suffer the insult of not being ranked in the top ten for a season.) Like I said, I don't think it's necessarily a reason for successful schools to not opt up, (Then why do you use it to defend your point?)but it is a reality that differentiates public schools from private schools. (Re-read my last post, which states public schools also face uncertainty every year. Case in point: I'm sure the coaches at Proctor and North Shore were quite surprised to hear that their best players were transferring to Duluth Marshall. Or how about the surprise the Hibbing coaches got when one of their players, a kid who was a perennial MN Select player and point per game player as a soph, was suspended for the season? A kid of his talent would very likely have put Hibbing over the top in their 3-2 loss to Marshall last night. Instability is not a phenomenon exclusive to private schools. )
On top of that, even if you know who currently plays hockey in 9th grade, or the younger students have committed to your school, they are spread all over the place. Not really an arguing point, simply a reality worth noting. (Yet within this maelstrom of insecurity and randomness STA still found a way to be top 3 A team for the past 7 years. Did I mention the opt up commitment is only two years?)

-Nope.
Yes, St Thomas has a middle school. The 8th grade is half the size of the 9th and 7th is usually half that size. Some other private schools have middle schools and grade schools, but their enrollments aren't nearly the same as the high schools in most cases. (Thanks for the info, next time include something that tells us how this is relevant in any way.)

-So you don't think there are public schools who could reasonably expect to make it to state in the AA section they'd be put in? I can think of more public schools than private that fit that bill...(I've asked you twice to list these schools for me. I gave you a list of AA sections where I think the top metro privates would be competitive, so please return the favor. I mean, you wouldn't want anyone to think you are just making it up as you go along now, would you? It's a slippery slope, if you start by ducking questions, that may lead to ducking things like the "Rags to Riches" challenge, which if ignored, could lead to a serious breach in your credibility.)
Also, I'm still curious what section you think Blake, Breck, Totino, etc would be put into that they would reasonably expect to make state. (Why did you ask this twice? Did you think I could answer it while you were still writing your post?) With that definition,(Please explain what definition you are talking about. Remember the whole thing about being willfully obtuse and how it betrays your lack of a strong argument?) the teams definitely change. I would also add that with that definition, I am more okay with St Thomas staying down. If you think they could've predicted making state in a section with Eagan, Apple Valley, and Cretin the last three years, then you'd probably be in the minority. (According to my definition, which you may need to read a few extra times since you are struggling with keeping it straight, you will see that yes, STA should have absolutely been in AA. It is not about being guaranteed a spot at state, it is about being a top 3 seed in the section. )

Look, I'm having a blast eviscerating your dubious claims and fuzzy logic, but it's time to quit stalling and get busy working on a response to the "Rags to Riches" challenge. You will never get a better chance to set me straight about our disagreement that a school like Hibbing can easily become the next STA.

I cannot stress strongly enough that your refusal to accept this challenge will undermine your credibility so thoroughly that any future statements of yours will be viewed in the same light as those made by someone like Ogie; in other words, people will think you wear a helmet, but not for athletic purposes.

[rainier]

With your dull intellect and complete inability to comment on anything remotely concerned with high school hockey, I have narrowed down who you might be to two options:

1. An unfrozen caveman actually named Ogie, who is learning English by listening to conservative talk radio.

Or

2. HSHW's cat, who he has taught to type and cut and paste photos from Google Images.

I can come to no other conclusions as long as you refuse to discuss actual hs hockey topics. You started by chastising me for ad hominem attacks, and since then you have done nothing but spew them yourself. (Hilariously ineffectively, I might add.)

Please, please outline for me how an outstate "gubbamint" school can implement the metro private school blueprint to achieve sustained hockey success. You might be busy trying to discover fire or else kicking sand to cover your droppings, I'm not sure, but please, if you can, provide some hs hockey commentary.

You wouldn't know intellect if it crawled up you leg and bit your butt....And your adolescent ignorance, insolence, hubris, bigotry, Freudian projection, complete lack of intellectual curiosity and introspection all rolled into one can't substitute for it.

All that's left for anyone with a shred of intellect to do is to sit back, point and chuckle.

So what are you doing instead of sitting back, pointing, and chuckling?

Not coming up with any takes on high school hockey, apparently.

[HShockeywatcher]

-How is "reasonable chance to make it to state out of your section in AA" different than "make it to state in AA"? Don't you make it to state by making it out of your section?

-Breck end up in 7AA?

-It's not anyone's fear of anything. There is a difference between being a competitive team and making it to state regularly.

-If you don't think that "hockey's different" and that enrollment has very little to do with success, then you are in the minority on this board.

-I misread his post. That being said, according to him, there are people currently attending school in the district not from it. They are, however, the exception, not the rule. They are the only school in the state I've ever heard of that doesn't accept OE.
-You don't have to live in a certain area to attend a private school. That is a difference. It was pretty clear if you can follow the flow of a conversation.
-I know plenty come from Inver Grove Heights, South St Paul, Mahtomedi, Mendota Heights. One of the top players on the hockey team is from WI too. There are plenty from Northwest Suburban, Suburban East, South Suburban, and Lake schools, no doubt. 98% just seems a tad high, even for an exaggeration.
I have at multiple times suggested using all of the cities students in the school come from for enrollment purposes, so I don't disagree with your premise, although that would change things for some public communities.

-Your definition of "first hand" seems to be a little bit different from what I was taught...
I still not sure how knowing of teams who have done well and hearing about some of the things they have done to get there is supposed to make me as expert.

-I can agree to disagree. It's unfortunate you cannot.

-Glad you were able to understand why I said two years. Sometimes I wonder.

-It's relevant because I was responding to a comment you made. My apologies for actually responding to the things you say, I know it's a concept you're not too familiar with.

-You actually haven't asked me for anything. I made a comment about private schools, then you asked me for some and I listed them.
I'm not sure what definition I should use anymore. Is it those who could be top 3 in the AA section regularly is it make it to state regularly, or is it some new definition?
Based on the previous one, I would say TRF, Warroad and EGF could all reasonably expect to compete for a title berth, although their section would be loaded. Hermantown, Delano, and maybe Denfeld. And in their current state, I would add Mankato West to the list.
With the new definition of top 3, I think Hermantown and the best team in 8A.

-Again, my apologies for not being able to predict the future. First, it was expect to make it to state regularly (oh, my bad, "out of sections"), now it's top 3.

Look, I'm having a blast eviscerating your dubious claims and fuzzy logic, but it's time to quit stalling and get busy working on a response to the "Rags to Riches" challenge. You will never get a better chance to set me straight about our disagreement that a school like Hibbing can easily become the next STA.

I have never said this.
But I will think about your "challenge." I'm still not sure why you think I have some magic formula for you, but I'll do what I can.

[hockeymannorth]

I know kids that got recuited and free school at Hill for hockey,who cares just sick of people that pretend it doesn't happen. its just away for a school to promote itself look at Holy family nobody even heard of them until they recuited hockey players

[rainier]

-(Before I begin I would like to point out how you avoided including the original questions and responses in this post, a strategy which makes it easier for you to drift away from the original issues in which you were caught dead-to-rights being wrong. Please intersperse your answers into existing posts such as I do, or copy and paste verbatim so the integrity of the debate's course is held intact and can't be deflected elsewhere. Don't worry, the internet won't break if you do this. Now, on to the show.)

How is "reasonable chance to make it to state out of your section in AA" different than "make it to state in AA"? (Even though any native English speaker can see there is an obvious difference between these two statements, I'll indulge you. The second statement is a guarantee at a state birth and the first statement is not. Did Grand Rapids or Roseau opt up only because they knew they would "make it to state"? Absolutely not. They opted up because they have a "reasonable chance to make it to state on a reasonably consistent basis". They know powerhouses such as East and Moorhead are in their sections thus they will not go every year, but they know they almost always will have a fighting chance, so they opt up.) Don't you make it to state by making it out of your section? (Once again, I can't tell if you really don't understand the difference between these statements or if you are running a "duh" smoke screen to avoid having to admit you're wrong. Neither option makes you look good.)

-Breck end up in 7AA? (Before you give yourself a concussion, perhaps you'd like to know that if Breck were added to 7AA, there would be two schools currently in 7AA that would still be further from Duluth than Breck is: STMA-173 miles and Elk River-166 miles; Breck school is 158 miles from Duluth, and given they beat East, they would be looking at a #1 seed. Go ahead and check Google maps, or better yet, have your cat Ogie do it for you. You did not refute my claim that Breck, STA, and T-G could compete in 1AA, 2AA, 3AA, 4AA, 5AA, and as I have shown, your 7AA rebuttal is baseless. And as for 6AA, the one section that the metro A privates may find too daunting, you may be interested to know STA, Breck, and T-G had a combined record of 5-3 against 6AA teams. Now that sounds reasonably competitive to me. That leaves 8AA, and the reason the metro privates wouldn't go there is geographic, and certainly not competition-based.)

-It's not anyone's fear of anything. (Then why not move up?) There is a difference between being a competitive team and making it to state regularly. (Isn't this essentially the same set of statements that at the beginning of your post you claimed to not know the difference between? The wording is slightly different, but the difference in meaning between the two sets of statements is the same, yet here you are telling me there is a difference. Do you pick and choose when to understand and when not to understand? Why do I get the feeling you are not being honest with me? If you are usually a top 3 seed in your section, you will very likely find yourself in St. Paul from time to time. No guarantees, but it sure beats crushing everyone in Class A and having everyone think you are a trophy-chaser.)

-If you don't think that "hockey's different" and that enrollment has very little to do with success, then you are in the minority on this board. (Then why did they create two classes? And I would argue that hockey is more dependent on enrollment numbers than a sport like basketball, in which only one or two excellent players can allow a team to compete with anyone, something that we know isn't true for hockey.)

-I misread his post. (That seems to happen to you a lot.) That being said, according to him, there are people currently attending school in the district not from it. (Once again, this is where including the original information from Rockcrusher would be helpful for others to follow along, unless you are specifically trying to avoid that.) They are, however, the exception, not the rule. They are the only school in the state I've ever heard of that doesn't accept OE. (So isn't this the strongest argument one could possibly make that Hermantown is truly a small community program? Doesn't this fact completely contradict your thesis that they aren't much different than STA? Do you even know what you are arguing for or against at this point?)
-You don't have to live in a certain area to attend a private school. (I agree with this 100%, especially because it is one of the strongest arguments for getting metro private schools out of A. Do you really not know what side you are arguing for or against or is this just another strategy to throw people off your argument-losing scent?) That is a difference. It was pretty clear if you can follow the flow of a conversation. (I'm trying to follow you, I really am, but you weave around like a drunken snake with Parkinson's. Including original statements would help you stay on track.)
-I know plenty come from Inver Grove Heights, South St Paul, Mahtomedi, Mendota Heights. (Finally, somewhat of a list, thank you.) One of the top players on the hockey team is from WI too. (You get players from other states? Isn't that what Shattuck does? I don't even want to think about what that does to the size of STA's talent pool.) There are plenty from Northwest Suburban, Suburban East, South Suburban, and Lake schools, no doubt. 98% just seems a tad high, even for an exaggeration. (If it's a "tad" high, then it's not too far off then, is it? So players from STA come from a collection of places that are 90% AA communities? What about this suggests that they belong in A?)
I have at multiple times suggested using all of the cities students in the school come from for enrollment purposes, so I don't disagree with your premise, although that would change things for some public communities. (Geez, if we did this for private schools they would have to be in Class AAAAAAAAA. Are you throwing this debate? Did you put money on me winning and are taking a dive? A lot of what you are saying now is more helpful to my argument than anything I could come up with. Thanks, I guess.)

-Your definition of "first hand" seems to be a little bit different from what I was taught...
I still not sure how knowing of teams who have done well and hearing about some of the things they have done to get there is supposed to make me as expert. (You don't have to be an expert, just pay attention, do some research, and ask people who know more than you do. That way you can formulate something called an "informed opinion".)

-I can agree to disagree. It's unfortunate you cannot. (Why the heck would I? That's like STA leading New Ulm 14-0 in the third period and STA suddenly saying, "Ah screw it, let's call it a tie." I believe in my argument and I have you cornered, I'm not going anywhere.)

-Glad you were able to understand why I said two years. Sometimes I wonder. (By not including the original material, you mislead others into thinking you somehow "won" on this subject. To refresh your and others' memories, you claimed that a disadvantage that private schools have is that they can only know how good their teams are two years in advance, and I responded by telling you that that is precisely how long the opt-up commitment is, thereby rendering your argument completely ineffective. And I think the only thing you are really wondering about now is how you are going to get out of the deep hole of dishonesty and disproven claims you have dug yourself into.)

-It's relevant because I was responding to a comment you made. My apologies for actually responding to the things you say, I know it's a concept you're not too familiar with. (If it was relevant than you could have easily included a little bit more information which would have clearly demonstrated relevancy. I no longer think these omissions are unintentional.)

-You actually haven't asked me for anything. (Go back and look again, I asked for the list of public schools that should opt up that you claimed to have-twice. You kind of gave me a list in this response, but it wasn't explicitly stated that these are schools that you believe should opt up and therefore prove the onus of opting up shouldn't be placed on metro privates. To say I didn't ask for anything isn't just being forgetful, it is outright lying.) I made a comment about private schools, then you asked me for some and I listed them. (I wanted your public school list and you know it.)
I'm not sure what definition I should use anymore. Is it those who could be top 3 in the AA section regularly is it make it to state regularly, or is it some new definition? (Why don't you take a stab at making your own definition? I gave you mine. We'll call this one the "Opt up Criteria" challenge.)
Based on the previous one, I would say TRF, Warroad and EGF could all reasonably expect to compete for a title berth, although their section would be loaded. (Okay, now you are giving me some teams. I haven't looked, but I would guess that TRF, Warroad, and EGF don't have an impressive record vs Moorhead and Roseau over the last decade. I could be wrong, and if I am, I hope someone lets me know about it.) Hermantown, Delano, and maybe Denfeld. And in their current state, I would add Mankato West to the list. (If you think Denfeld could have been a top 3 seed in 7AA any later than 1989 or so, then you need to do some reading. Denfeld is having one of its best seasons since the 80's yet they still lost to the #4 seed in 7AA twice by a combined score of 11-2. Not much motivation to opt up there.)
With the new definition of top 3, I think Hermantown and the best team in 8A. (So you got two teams then. One that is the only school in the state that doesn't allow OE and the other who has likely been dominated by the top two seeds in 8AA. I'm trying to think of a word to describe your argument here. What is the exact opposite of "rock solid"?)

-Again, my apologies for not being able to predict the future. First, it was expect to make it to state regularly (oh, my bad, "out of sections"), now it's top 3. (The definition has to have some ambiguity to it, you can't guarantee that any team will make it to state. And my definition seems to be very close to the one used by the teams that have opted up. What would your definition be? Maybe we can find some common ground?)

Look, I'm having a blast eviscerating your dubious claims and fuzzy logic, but it's time to quit stalling and get busy working on a response to the "Rags to Riches" challenge. You will never get a better chance to set me straight about our disagreement that a school like Hibbing can easily become the next STA.

I have never said this. (Not verbatim, but you have repeatedly said that outstate public schools are not at an overall disadvantage to metro privates, so you must believe there is some way that these public schools can get to STA's level. If you don't think this is the case, then you must admit metro privates have an overall advantage that makes their insane success in Class A quite hollow.)
But I will think about your "challenge." I'm still not sure why you think I have some magic formula for you, but I'll do what I can. (I'm not sure you have a magic formula, but you are convinced that outstate public schools are capable of rising to the level of a Breck or STA. This you have made very clear over and over again in your rebuttals to others' claims that these private schools are exploiting a loophole in the two class system. For you to be able to make this claim, you must know what outstate public schools are doing wrong, so I figured you would be the one to turn to for a solution, because we all know how fond you are of people making an effort to offer a solution. )

I know you know how STA built a hockey powerhouse, all I am asking is that you take that formula and apply it to Hibbing. You don't have to know everything about Hibbing, I will fill in the blanks and we can see if your blueprint is feasible. I don't understand the hesitation on your part; you have fought tooth and nail to convince others that metro privates don't enjoy any significant advantage over outstate public schools, and now you have the chance to highlight all the things the public schools are neglecting to do or are doing wrong, but you don't go for it.

If someone tells me they can play guitar better than Jimi Hendrix and they refuse to play when I hand them a Stratocaster, then forgive me, but I will call BS every time.

It's only your reputation on the line, no pressure.

[PuckU126]

I know kids that got recuited and free school at Hill for hockey,who cares just sick of people that pretend it doesn't happen.

And I am sick of people making false claims without backing it up.

However, would you care to prove that statement, please?

Maybe a confirmation from admissions stating its policy on athletic scholarships?

By the way, here is the list AND descriptions of EACH scholarship HM offers:
http://hillmurray.pegasus.webaloo.com/f ... latest.pdf

I am yet to find a full ride scholarship for a student's athletic ability...

[PuckU126]

I know you know how STA built a hockey powerhouse, all I am asking is that you take that formula and apply it to Hibbing.

I didn't know HSHW is an administrator of STA and is apart of its athletic department? Why not go straight to the source and ask yourself?

Maybe you should call STA's front office and ask how Hibbing can improve its program. In fact, call Edina, Minnetonka, HM, BSM, Duluth East, Hermantown, Moorhead and Warroad while you're at it.

Until then, see you at the X in a few years with your team.

[rainier]

I know you know how STA built a hockey powerhouse, all I am asking is that you take that formula and apply it to Hibbing.

I didn't know HSHW is an administrator of STA and is apart of its athletic department? Why not go straight to the source and ask yourself?

Maybe you should call STA's front office and ask how Hibbing can improve its program. In fact, call Edina, Minnetonka, HM, BSM, Duluth East, Hermantown, Moorhead and Warroad while you're at it.

Until then, see you at the X in a few years with your team.

Are you and Ogie having a numbskull contest? Because it's going to be a photo finish.

If you had actually been paying attention to the discussion, you would see that all the teams you listed are either not as good as STA or else they are already in AA (or both). HSHW claims that STA has no overall advantage over outstate public schools, so I just want him to explain how an outstate public school can get to STA's level; clearly Hermantown and Warroad are not at that level. If I called the other schools on your list, they would tell me to start by having an AA-sized talent pool, which isn't an option for outstate public schools, yet funnily enough it is exactly what metro private schools have.

Keep chiming in by all means. The more you post the less work I have to put in to making you look bad.

Would you care to take the "Rags to Riches" challenge? Can you come up with a feasible plan to propel a school like Hibbing or Little Falls to truckloads of Class A titles using their existing parameters? I've been told numerous times that it is surely possible. How about you make an attempt at abstract thought instead of just hurling high-school level insults? Your buddy Ogie will be making an attempt at it as soon as he figures out which way the batteries fit into his Speak and Spell, so put down your Spiderman comic and get writing kiddo.

Or you can continue to add nothing.

[thestickler07]

Alright rainier what exactly is your beef with private schools?

[PuckU126]

If you had actually been paying attention to the discussion, you would see that all the teams you listed are either not as good as STA or else they are already in AA (or both). HSHW claims that STA has no overall advantage over outstate public schools, so I just want him to explain how an outstate public school can get to STA's level; clearly Hermantown and Warroad are not at that level. If I called the other schools on your list, they would tell me to start by having an AA-sized talent pool, which isn't an option for outstate public schools, yet funnily enough it is exactly what metro private schools have.

Please continue to besmirch our characters. It looks like it helps with your self esteem. However, like what you've stated before, it adds nothing to this discussion. (You're only hurting your own argument and image)

And what does it matter what teams I cited? Are they not successful enough for you? State championships, a year-to-year coming of 20+ win seasons and high turnout of elite players coming out of their programs sure seems attractive for any program A or AA. Or maybe you already know what you want and what Hibbing needs? Why don't YOU show us and your community on how to take Hibbing to the next level, rainier?

But if you choose to ignore the obvious success of others and yourself, I believe the Chinese have a great program developing children into Olympic athletes. Maybe you could call them and take a page out of their player development program?

[rainier]

Alright rainier what exactly is your beef with private schools?

Great to have you back, stick-man! I guess the group home reinstated your internet privileges.

To make you and the old lady from the old Wendy's commercials happy, I'll lay my beef out for you. (Settle down tiger, that's just a figure of speech.)

As I recently found out, 18 of the last 25 girls and boys Class A hockey titles have been won by private schools from the Twin Cities metro area (72%). That's an astonishing success rate when you consider these same schools only make up 9% of the total teams in Class A. A statistical anomaly of this magnitude warrants further investigation.

When the question is posed how this dominance could have arisen, one must look for common elements among these metro privates. And what you find is that they have two things in common.

1. They are all located in a major metropolitan area of 2.5 million people in which the vast majority of other schools are AA.

2. They are private schools, which means they have resource levels not attainable by public schools, given the the amount in tuition one must pay to attend.

With this established, one must then check to see what the common properties are amongst the outstate schools, who make up the other 91% of teams yet only 28% of its champions. (SCC, Lourdes, D. Marshall excepted.)

1. They are almost all located in areas with populations from around 2,000 to 15,000, far less than the metro privates.

2. They are public schools, thus they have the funds that the state provides them, and not the huge accumulation of tuition found in private schools.


So logic demands that we conclude that the reason for this incredible, unprecedented success rate is due to the huge advantages in population and financial resources that the metro private schools have over the outstate public schools.

Fittingly, fans, parents, coaches, TV and radio personalities, former GMs of the Minnesota North Stars, and scores of others catch on to this imbalance and begin to question its morality. A near consensus is reached that what is taking place is a clear violation of the intent of the creation of Class A and that this violation is incongruously being perpetrated by institutions that go to great lengths to advertise their commitment to integrity, leadership, and service.

Yet there remains one tiny segment of the populace that somehow cannot see what everyone else sees. They are certain members of the alumni from the probability-defying metro private schools. When others bring up this transparent ruse, they lash out and vehemently deny that which is so blatantly obvious, and then go even a step further and proclaim it is the public schools' lack of action that has created this chasm of ability, completely ignoring the fact that acquiring the two things that have made the metro privates so successful is an impossibility for outstate public schools. They continue to maintain this illogical narrative despite other metro privates schools opting up and even through the admission of other alumni from their schools that they should not be in Class A.

It is this irrational, willfully ignorant resistance to logic and sportsmanship that is my beef. And despite invitations to spell out how these public schools can be as successful as they claim they have the potential to be, all we hear from this group of normally highly vocal and emotional people is a deafening silence. A damning silence, more damning than anything Louis Vincent Nanne could ever say about them.

They defend the indefensible, and as a result they make themselves vulnerable to attack by those who are willing to wield logic and common sense in refuting them. While it provides great fun and hours of entertainment for those who effortlessly trap them into embarrassing contradictions and rationalizations, one can't help but feel for the kids whose high school hockey experiences were tainted by the mentality these deniers show to be commonplace behind their exclusive walls. At least the taken advantage-of kids get the benefit of learning how not to conduct oneself, but that is a small consolation to a group of heartbroken pucksters who get tired of hearing the word "consolation" every March.

That's it in a nutshell. I don't expect you hockeycaust deniers to ever fess up to your institutions' culpability in creating this atmosphere of athletic bullying, but maybe someday a crack will form in your hardened shell of self-righteousness and some remorse may reach your cold hearts, where you will realize that the ends doesn't always justify the means.

[thestickler07]

Write me a stanza instead of a novel...

And leave out the name calling and "witty" literary devices you love to employ so much, they obfuscate your point and make you seem less mature then I'm sure you really are.

[rainier]

If you had actually been paying attention to the discussion, you would see that all the teams you listed are either not as good as STA or else they are already in AA (or both). HSHW claims that STA has no overall advantage over outstate public schools, so I just want him to explain how an outstate public school can get to STA's level; clearly Hermantown and Warroad are not at that level. If I called the other schools on your list, they would tell me to start by having an AA-sized talent pool, which isn't an option for outstate public schools, yet funnily enough it is exactly what metro private schools have.

Please continue to besmirch our characters. It looks like it helps with your self esteem. However, like what you've stated before, it adds nothing to this discussion. (You're only hurting your own argument and image)

And what does it matter what teams I cited? Are they not successful enough for you? State championships, a year-to-year coming of 20+ win seasons and high turnout of elite players coming out of their programs sure seems attractive for any program A or AA. Or maybe you already know what you want and what Hibbing needs? Why don't YOU show us and your community on how to take Hibbing to the next level, rainier?

But if you choose to ignore the obvious success of others and yourself, I believe the Chinese have a great program developing children into Olympic athletes. Maybe you could call them and take a page out of their player development program?

Are you a complete moron? Have you been following anything I've been writing? The reason I don't lay out a plan for Hibbing to be as successful as STA is that it isn't possible. That's my whole point. If you had any idea what was going on you wouldn't even ask me that question. That is why I am challenging HSHW or any of you Einsteins to come up with one.

So you consider Class A metro privates to be "successful", do you? What else do you consider successful? Do you consider it a "success" if you can get to the last seat on the bus before an old lady does? If you can convince a ten year old to trade you his Michael Jordan rookie card for a LeBron James 4th year card, would you consider that a "successful" day? Is it always about coming out on top, or is their something to be said for how you go about getting there? Is there any room for discernment in your world, or is less scary for you to just put your mind on autopilot and coast through a simple black-and-white life?

I get that you may have a hard time maintaining attention long enough to read anything longer than a TiVo movie description, but please try to follow along with the debate, that way you won't continue to make an ass out of yourself by challenging me with inane questions and unrelated rants.

You are not improving the perception of what a private school education is worth.

[rainier]

Write me a stanza instead of a novel...

And leave out the name calling and "witty" literary devices you love to employ so much, they obfuscate your point and make you seem less mature then I'm sure you really are.

If I wanted to have posts devoid of humor and creativity I would just have you write them for me. But then I would never be able to make a coherent argument either, so it would be a wash.

I blend my name calling with healthy amounts of reasoning to support my claims. Agree or not, I'm making the effort instead of just tossing out shallow criticisms that don't address any content of the argument.

As for the literary devices, just because I will read more pages out of a book before I go to bed tonight than you will read between now and your retirement doesn't mean you can't toss in something witty now and then.

I can't help but think that if you had something interesting to say, you would say it. Oh well.

[PuckU126]

Are you a complete moron? Have you been following anything I've been writing? The reason I don't lay out a plan for Hibbing to be as successful as STA is that it isn't possible. That's my whole point. If you had any idea what was going on you wouldn't even ask me that question. That is why I am challenging HSHW or any of you Einsteins to come up with one.

So you consider Class A metro privates to be "successful", do you? What else do you consider successful? Do you consider it a "success" if you can get to the last seat on the bus before an old lady does? If you can convince a ten year old to trade you his Michael Jordan rookie card for a LeBron James 4th year card, would you consider that a "successful" day? Is it always about coming out on top, or is their something to be said for how you go about getting there? Is there any room for discernment in your world, or is less scary for you to just put your mind on autopilot and coast through a simple black-and-white life?

I get that you may have a hard time maintaining attention long enough to read anything longer than a TiVo movie description, but please try to follow along with the debate, that way you won't continue to make an ass out of yourself by challenging me with inane questions and unrelated rants.

You are not improving the perception of what a private school education is worth.

There you go again. I am not your enemy yet you treat me as a hostile individual. Lets just chill out, rainier. We obviously are not seeing eye to eye. You're asking one thing but expecting a different answer. Whatever that may be, I'm done chasing.

So, I'm going on a different path now so let me breakdown my opinion on Class A and private schools.

STA has walked over Class A teams when they developed and invested more into their program. Before 2003, STA was no where near they are today, but they are now a powerhouse and have FINALLY decided to opt up. BTW, I have been saying for years STA should move to AA. I may defend private schools; however, not all are the same, and some can still stay in A.

Here's my brief rundown:
Breck should move up, Lourdes can stay because they've done nothing, Marshal can stay because of the same but they may need to opt up if they out grow A (which they will) and Blake and TG can stay as well. That is my honest opinion about those private schools in Class A. If and when they start developing even greater, send them up, but until then, public schools can still get the job done. We all know they can.

On a side note (which is my main beef with anti-private schoolers) I find it irritating when they make blanket statements like all private schools heavily recruit ALL of their players and they give them full rides as if they were the U. They don't AND there is no proof that they do. Its all hearsay.

As for your Hibbing question (which you obviously took my posts WAY out of context...), of course it isn't possible to answer, but we know the problem. Hibbing's program is slowly becoming like Greenway, Virgina and I'Falls (depleting) because their talent pool is becoming smaller, they have limited resources and funding and its all mainly because of that region's economic status. And before you say "gotcha," yes, those are huge advantages to ALL METRO TEAMS, not just private schools and you know that's true.

I hate to say this but teams in your area are dwindling and they will never be what they use to be. Granted, there may be some good teams here and there; however, the entire metro area has the sport of boys high school hockey by the gills because of their resources and its already showing.

That is my take on this subject. Take it or leave it. Until then, I'm going to sit here, read some posts and selectively respond.