Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Thanks.PuckU126 wrote:Mailman wrote:<shrug> I think he has some valid points, going against a "circle the wagons" response it would seem, and his main question has yet to be answered.Ogie wrote:^^^
What he said.
Scroll back a page or two.
No problem.Mailman wrote:Thanks.
The question of a format to make a small, outstate school as successful as a metro private ? (not his exact wording)
Couldn't find a response, but may have missed it.
HShockeywatcher wrote:Oh man, it appears my absence is bearing missed dearly by rainier. I hope he doesn't get too lonely when I am away, ya know, at a job and completing other responsibilities. When he had other responsibilities, I was supposed to understand, so I'm glad he can too.
If you'd like to think I'm not quoting the things to help serve some higher purpose, you're more than welcome to. Really, I'm doing it because it saves time. (I'm sorry HSHW, I'm not buying the "save time" excuse. I post my responses to you in bold within your posts so that there is no ambiguity as to what you said and what my response is, thus the course of the debate's integrity is held intact. By making a brand new post without including the original statements, it is far too easy for someone to weasel their way out of being painted into a corner by changing the subject, pretending a question wasn't asked, or taking partial statements out of context and completely change their meaning. And yes, I do believe this is a strategy of yours, that is specifically why I write my posts this way. I want everyone to see exactly what was said; don't you? In fact, I would even say my method saves time, because then there is no need to refer back to the original post when you are writing the new post.) It takes time (that you aren't willing to take) to cut and paste many different quotes from someone else and respond to them all. (I don't need to take time to cut and paste, I do it a better way that doesn't take more time than making a new post. You can easily use all caps or italics or put in HSHW: before your responses; there are many easy ways to do this that take very little time. You can do it however you like, but if someone asks you to include the original statements for the sake of ensuring an honest and transparent debate, and you refuse to do it even though it doesn't require more time or effort, then people are going to assume you do not want to have an honest and transparent debate because you have something to hide. Do you want to have an honest and transparent debate or not? If so, please start to include our back and forth exchanges for each of our arguments.)
When I misread something of yours, it's the end of the world and I'm somehow twisting everything, but when you misread something or misquote me (admittedly) you just cover it up and make excuses. Interesting way to argue. (Do you see that by not including original statements nobody can tell what it was that was misread and therefore cannot make a judgement as to which one of us has a more valid point? How do they know you are telling the truth if there is no evidence to support your claim? Other people read this, so as a courtesy to them, please include original comments verbatim, so that they may follow along without having to waste time referring back to them on previous posts.)
Ultimately, you are taking first hand accounts of multiple people with them to make and saying they are wrong. (I don't know what this sentence means. I know we all make typos, but you seem to make a lot of them, and when you make them they usually render a sentence meaningless. Please make more of an effort to be clear and precise.) If you want my opinion, or Sticklers, Ogie, or anyone else's, ask and be constructive in your response. (I have been asking you guys constantly to tell me how an outstate school such as Hibbing can become as powerful as STA. None of you will answer this questions, so how can I be constructive in my response? And in this current response I am being extremely constructive, as I am politely asking you to include original statements, which will clarify our debate and ensure its integrity.) Most of us are trying to have an informed discussion on the topic. You have a perspective that some of us don't have, and cannot have. If you were able to be more respectful and actually accept our experiences for what they are, you could get much farther in this. (I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. I read this sentence and I'm not sure how to respond because it is very vague and imprecise. Tell me what the experiences are that I should accept, tell me how these specific experiences will get me "farther in this", and tell me exactly what you mean by "this". Please use more descriptive language so there is less ambiguity in your statements. When you are this vague it makes me think you are just trying to confuse me.)
I find it interesting you bring up BSM. From their first Class A title, they spent 6 more years in Class A before going to AA. From STA's first title, they will have spent 7 more years. Very similar. (No, actually they are quite different. BSM's PageStat ratings from their first A title until opt up were: 11,42,27,57,16,16. STA's ratings from their first title until opt up were: 21,9,3,11,11,8,6,4. After their first title, BSM had legitimate concerns about their ability to compete in AA, and even when they did decide to opt up their rating was still lower than every single one of STA's other than '06. STA has won 4 titles over this span, with a great chance at a 5th this year and two other potential title seasons were cut short by "shocking" upsets in sections, and they did all this with an average PageStat rating that was 19 spots higher than BSM's was from '99 until opt up. When you reply to this, please include all of the preceding information so that others will see exactly how this exchange went and they can decide if you are right that they were "very similar" or that I was right that they were "quite different".)
You also continue to show how little you know about the dynamics at play at private schools. Your recent "That's exactly what I think happened." comment shows this exactly. People are repeatedly explaining many things (Please provide an example here, it would strengthen your assertion immensely. In this context, "things" is extremely vague.)to you about the operations as they know them and your response is to simply tell them they are wrong. You don't have to agree with them; there are people at the school who don't. But saying they are wrong is just silly. (I said they were wrong, but then I laid out a persuasive argument as to why I disagreed with them. And did it ever occur to you that someone may not want to admit to something such as their school bolstered their hockey program for the primary purpose of free publicity for business purposes? People do engage in denial and dishonesty when something as important as their integrity is involved. I'm not just going to blindly accept whatever someone tells me without critically evaluating the evidence first.)
You are honestly the first person on here to explain/have your rational for why enrollment does matter so much to hockey. Not much disagreement there from a simple numbers perspective. (Private schools have the ability to drastically alter the normal enrollment to talent ratio, as evidenced by their A sized enrollments and consistent AA level of talent. It is my belief that once a school located in a major metropolitan area can effectively compete in AA, they should do so, public or private. I also think that if an outstate team can effectively compete in AA, they should do the same. I gave you my definition several times as to when a school should opt up, yet you have yet to give me your definition. Please provide me with this in your response.)
This is ultimately what I dislike about the private hating opinion.deacon wrote:Rainier's world: You can be in class A as long as you don't win.
If you are going to say that every private school should opt up for various reasons, that makes sense. If, though, it is only bad for successful private school to be in a specific class, then it's not logical.
(I don't know why you guys insist on leaving human judgement out of this issue. Actually I do, because if human judgement is used it makes STA look terrible. This is simple, if you look at your team, and you are capable of competing very well in AA, then opt up, private or public. I focus on the dominant private schools because they are the ones meeting this criteria. Remember when you gave me a list of which public schools you thought should opt up? You said Hermantown and whoever the top team in 8A is. Two whole teams. Stop hiding behind this spurious argument and admit that human judgement should determine who is capable of opting up.)
My personal opinion, yours may be different, is that very few people who teach at a school (for example) should have an opinion that carries any weight in an athletic discussion. Being a teacher at a school and being someone who knows anything about the intricacies of the sports are two very different things.BlueLineSpecial wrote:Had a chance to speak with someone close to the Breck boys hockey team this weekend. And by close I mean employed by Breck, not a random parent. Interesting perspective on staying in A, and probably an indication they aren't moving up anytime soon.
During our hockey discussion (and knowing I'm from Hill) I asked if they have considered moving up to AA. My question was instantly met with disgust. This person informed me that their high school has less than 400 students. How could they possibly compete with schools that have classes double the size of their entire school? How could they compete with the private schools that have nearly double the student body? When I brought up that the school pulls from the entire metro and can't be compared to a small town with similar numbers, they didn't have much of an answer. Just repeatedly referenced their student body population.
Anyway, interesting to see into the mind of a metro private school program in A and thought I would pass it along.
He's very good at that.PuckU126 wrote:Please continue to besmirch our characters. It looks like it helps with your self esteem. However, like what you've stated before, it adds nothing to this discussion. (You're only hurting your own argument and image)
We were PMing for a while, then when I didn't 'cite specifics' he told me it was "cowardly and ineffective." When I responded and asked him to do the same, he told me to wait because he was busy; that was two months ago.(It is cowardly and ineffective, and the reason I didn't respond was that you refused to do it in an open and transparent manner, so it was pointless to argue with you. I am debating you now because I feel I have you cornered on the "Rags to Riches" challenge and I want everyone to see how much of a weasel you can be when it comes to debating. This is why I want you to include the original statements as we go back and forth. I want everyone to see how you refuse to use a simple technique that would weasel-proof our debate. Why won't you do this? I have nothing to hide, do you? You claim it takes more time. I completely disagree with this, but I am willing to give you as much time as you need.)
You keep repeating this despite my never saying this. I'd be curious if instead of repeating what I have said, find this post and quote it.rainier wrote:If you had actually been paying attention to the discussion, you would see that all the teams you listed are either not as good as STA or else they are already in AA (or both). HSHW claims that STA has no overall advantage over outstate public schools, so I just want him to explain how an outstate public school can get to STA's level; clearly Hermantown and Warroad are not at that level. If I called the other schools on your list, they would tell me to start by having an AA-sized talent pool, which isn't an option for outstate public schools, yet funnily enough it is exactly what metro private schools have.
My opinion is not that they don't have advantages, it is that those advantages do not always make them better. (Okay, the advantages don't always make every team better, but the advantages are making teams such as STA and Breck better, so much better that they could have been in AA a long time ago, which is my whole argument.) It is also that they have disadvantages to, ones you will not acknowledge. (The reason I don't acknowledge your so-called disadvantages is that they clearly are not disadvantages, such as your claim that STA has a two year window of doubt as to how good they will be. If you remember, I reminded you the opt up commitment is only two years, so STA would have the perfect amount of time to be able to opt down if the bottom fell out of their program, which renders your "disadvantage" moot. Others reading this would easily see the how empty your "disadvantages" were if you would include our original statements. If you are not willing to have an open and fully transparent debate, what conclusion can I come to other than you are avoiding having everyone see how you operate?)
Honestly, I'm not sure why I would accept this. (To prove to everyone that metro private schools do not have an overall advantage vs outstate public schools, thereby absolving STA of any wrongdoing. Tell me, do you think metro private schools have an overall advantage vs outstate public schools?) Almost every opinion I give you, you turn around and say is wrong. You are asking my opinion here, why would this be any different? (As far as the "Rags to Riches"challenge is concerned, I am not asking for your opinion, I am asking you to take the STA blueprint and apply it to Hibbing. The blueprint already exists, so just tell me the steps and we'll put it in the context of Hibbing. And I already know your opinion, you do not believe metro private schools have an overall advantage over outstate public schools. Or do you? Please let me know what your answer is.)rainier wrote:You won't accept my challenge? Why not? This is your big chance. There won't be any need to answer any of those other questions as your plan will lay out exactly how a small community can compete with metro privates and will put the matter to rest. I'm being totally serious here, I want to hear your plan.
You do understand what failure to accept this challenge implies, don't you?
You were holding answers to my questions hostage until I accepted some weird challenge of yours. (I did that for one day and then I answered all your questions. Now you are holding my challenge hostage, for several days, I might add. So if it was such a terrible thing for me to do to you, then you wouldn't dream of doing the same thing to me, right? This is another exchange that would be very valuable to include in further posts on the challenge topic, as it clearly shows you criticizing me for something and then doing the exact same thing yourself. Kind of like repeatedly telling everyone that they should be offering solutions but refusing to do the same thing yourself when it comes to the challenge.) By not responding, I was simply not letting you ignore everything I say and dictate every direction of the conversation. (I answered your questions, now it's your turn to answer my challenge. And by putting our original statements into your posts when we debate your plan, that will be your insurance that I cannot dictate the direction of the conversation, as everyone will be able to see me doing it and they can call me out on it. They can call me out, not you.)
If you are actually interested in my opinion on the topic, I'd be happy to share with the board. If you're just looking for something that you can quote, bold and explain to me why my opinion is wrong, then I'll pass. (So you don't ever want anyone to tell you that you are wrong and provide an argument that supports why they think you are wrong? Are you aware that that is exactly what debating is? And you do realize that you tell others they are wrong all of the time on this message board, don't you? You don't want me to explain why your opinion is wrong, yet you still want to be able to do it to me? Unreal.)
Your issue continues to be that you want "to be right" and not to gain information. (I want both. And I think I can get them both if you would just accept the "Rags to Riches" challenge. I would learn what the STA blueprint was, which you surely must know from your first hand experience as a student there, and I would be right if your plan turns out to be an impossibility for an outstate school like Hibbing, which I think it is.)
I'll take a closer look later on, thanks for the info.PuckU126 wrote:No problem.Mailman wrote:Thanks.
The question of a format to make a small, outstate school as successful as a metro private ? (not his exact wording)
Couldn't find a response, but may have missed it.
Some have "answered" it (including myself); however, there has been a lot of back and forth "banter" which has diluted this "discussion." As a negative consequence, many people have overlooked the information that has been posted.
HShockeywatcher wrote:Interesting that you get to dictate the way everything works and if someone doesn't do it your way, they are being a weasel or something. Tell ya what, I'll compromise with you (novel idea, eh?); if you quote things the way everyone else on this board does, take a look at how I've quoted your essays in the past, then I will continue to have them in my responses. That is my one condition. You may think it's unreasonable, but that's fine with me. Until that point, I'm not going to waste my time.
(So let me get this straight, I am calling you out on ducking the "Rags to Riches" challenge and also on using dishonest tactics in the style in which you debate on this forum, yet you refuse to do the two things that could prove your innocence? First of all, just post an answer to the challenge already, you complain about me holding your questions hostage yet you are doing the same thing to a much further extent. Second of all, the reason I don't want you to keep using the same style of debate is that I think you use it to be an enormous weasel. My way is insanely easy to use and ensures full disclosure, thus the only real reason you wouldn't want to use it is that you are afraid of full disclosure. Saying that I'm trying to "dictate the way everything works" is like accusing a teacher of "dictating the way everything works" just because she wants to be in the classroom while students are taking a test. You won't "waste your time" in order to clear your name, so what are we left to believe other than that you won't be able to do it?)
It would be awesome if we could have an actual conversation instead of 75% of your responses being "I don't understand your sentence" and "I wish you included my original comment so people actually knew what I said" but I won't get my hopes up. (Hey, I make mistakes too, and sometimes they end up in making a sentence unintelligible or too vague for anyone to know what I'm getting at, but at least I will clarify what I meant when asked rather than ignore them. You wrote the sentences, it shouldn't take any effort to correct, re-word, or add specifics to them. Essentially you are complaining about the fact that I am trying to keep you honest, and that is as hilarious as it is slimy.)
Have a good day everyone. (Please just answer two questions for me, and if you really can't post within the original posts, then fine, it's not the only weasel trap I can think of and I'll deal with it.
1. Describe to me how an outstate school such as Hibbing can elevate their program to be just as good as an STA or Breck.
2. Tell me if you think metro private schools in A have an overall advantage over outstate public schools. The keyword here is "overall". You have already given your advantages and disadvantages, so now I'm asking you to weigh them against each other and decide if the metro privates in A indeed enjoy an overall advantage or not.)
Late to the party here, but this seems simple without all the fingerpointing:The question of a format to make a small, outstate school as successful as a metro private ? (not his exact wording)
Couldn't find a response, but may have missed it.
You will "stick to pointing and laughing at his rambling incoherent text walls and nutty conspiracy theories" because that's all you got. If not, then please answer these two questions:Ogie wrote:There is no having any kind of informed constructive conversation with uninformed puerile bigots.....They know it all and you are either an idiot, evil or both.HShockeywatcher wrote:Ultimately, you are taking first hand accounts of multiple people with them to make and saying they are wrong. If you want my opinion, or Sticklers, Ogie, or anyone else's, ask and be constructive in your response. Most of us are trying to have an informed discussion on the topic. You have a perspective that some of us don't have, and cannot have. If you were able to be more respectful and actually accept our experiences for what they are, you could get much farther in this.
I'll just stick to pointing and laughing at his rambling incoherent text walls and nutty conspiracy theories, thankyouverymuch.
Thanks again for your response. We may not agree, but at least we can see each others thoughts put out there in an honest and transparent way.Shinbone_News wrote:Late to the party here, but this seems simple without all the fingerpointing:(First of all, thank you very much for posting an answer to this question, I have been waiting a long time for anyone to respond and I appreciate you taking the time to do so.) The question of a format to make a small, outstate school as successful as a metro private ? (not his exact wording)
Couldn't find a response, but may have missed it.
1) Get good coaches in your feeder association(s). (I agree completely with this point, but given the metro private schools have no feeder associations of their own, they never have to worry about this. They can get players from multiple associations that have excellent coaches. And this is my opinion, but I don't think the best coach in the history of youth hockey could take the relatively small amount of players in an outstate town such as Hibbing and produce 9 Elite Leaguers on one team. Others may think this is possible, but I do not.)
2)Get a good high school coach. (Using Hibbing as an example again, I think their coaches are every bit as good as STA's or Breck's. Hibbing's head coach: played at Michigan State for 4 years, Asst. coach: played at St. Cloud State for 4 years, goalie coach: played for National Development team and was starting goalie for 2002 NCAA champ Gophers. And the head coach has an outstanding reputation in MN high school hockey. Hermantown's head coach is so good he was able to coach his kid to an 8 year NHL career, yet his team is still a step behind STA and Breck. Little Falls' head coach played at UND, yet even when his team had once-in-a-generation talent they couldn't get by STA. I think there are enough excellent coaches at outstate Class A schools that coaching is not an advantage metro privates enjoy, but I realize others may not.)
3)Win games. (Although this point is kind of which came first, chicken or the egg, I will do my best. Could Hermantown have won any more games last season? Their only loss was to STA. Although for many Class A teams regular season record is not always indicative of how good they are, given that they may play many games against AA teams. Case in point, this year Hibbing finished the regular season 13-12, which might make someone say, "Geez, a .500 record in Class A, they must be terrible." But they had losses to Minnetonka, BSM, Eagan, Cloquet, Roseau, and Grand Rapids twice, so a sparkling record with that schedule would be tough, unless you were a metro private school like STA or Breck.)
4)Compete to win your section and have a shot at state. (Before this year, Hibbing had been to the 7A title game for 10 consecutive years and made it to state 3 of those times, losing to some outstanding Hermantown, Duluth Marshall, and Virginia teams in the years they didn't get to state. It would be hard to meet this criteria any better yet Hibbing is still light years behind the dominant metro A privates.)
5) Repeat. (Little Falls, Hermantown, and Warroad go to state very often. A number of outstate A schools are meeting this criteria on a regular basis, yet they still cannot get by STA or Breck, so it doesn't appear this is the way to get to their level.)
6) This approach attracts good and ambitious players who want to be a part of your program.
(As has been mentioned, the vast majority of outstate schools do not have other schools close enough to make "attracting" a feasible option, not to mention the fact that transferring is looked on with even more disgust than it is in the metro. And no matter how you dice it, the pool of players the metro privates can attract is orders of magnitude higher than for outstate teams. An outstate school can be more attractive than Kate Upton in a string bikini, but there just aren't enough players available in a realistic radius to compete with what STA or Breck has. )
7)If public, they'll try to open enroll. 8)If private, they'll enroll.
Is this plan easier in a metropolitan area? Yes, because there are more options for more players in a smaller area. (Thank you, and the advantage is so huge that it is exploitative for them to play in A for so long.) Is this plan impossible in a small, rural area? No. Ambitious and talented kids move all over the place to play hockey at a higher, more scrutinized level. (I respect your opinion, but where are the kids going to come from that would make TRF as good as STA or Breck? TRF is essentially in the middle of nowhere, and I don't think there would be enough jobs available for all of the hockey parents required to bring this team to a level of STA or Breck. We know there aren't enough jobs for these parents on the Iron Range, and probably not in Luverne either..)
Hope that helps!
BTW, I think what the private-haters REALLY hate is that privates generally get away with skipping step 1. (No, what I really hate is schools taking the best players from multiple AA sized communities and then dominating in A. It is an insane advantage that makes a mockery of Class A when the schools that have successfully leveraged it don't opt up.) But not any of the other steps. Metro privates give the appearance of skimming the best talent from good feeder associations, but I still say it's the kids themselves and their parents who do the skimming. (It doesn't matter if its the kids or the parents that decide, the point is that metro private schools in A that have successfully leveraged being in a major metropolitan are enjoy an exploitative advantage, something shown by the fact that they have won 18 of the last 25 girls and boys Class A hockey titles.) What talented hockey player doesn't want to be on a state-bound high school team, besides David Backes? (All players want to be on a state bound team, but unfortunately for most outstate players it isn't a big enough reason to leave their friends or homes, things metro private school kids don't have to give up when they decide to go to the latest Class A front runner. )
It's directly related to the question of the residency rule in MN youth Hockey, which so many people believe is holding back MN Hockey from competing with Tier 1 AAA everywhere else in the country.
thestickler07 wrote:Get better coaches. There are plenty of examples of smaller populations far out performing bigger and more wealthy ones, (Not in MN Class A boys and girls hockey.) and those instances rely on identifying young talent and working to develop it.
The Dominican Republic is dirt poor and less than 1/100th the size of the United States population wise; yet more than 1 out of every 10 players in MLB are Dominican. (Then why doesn't every major league team have a dominican manager? If it's better coaches that make the difference and the Dominican is this successful, then every baseball GM worth his own salt would hire a Dominican coach.)
Producing high level players and good teams is about coaching and player development. Just because you played division 1 hockey somewhere doesn't mean you are a good coach. (It doesn't guarantee it, but people who have played at that level and above usually make for better coaches than those that haven't. Not always, but most of the time would be my guess. And a general consensus seems to be that Hibbing's coach is one of the best in the state, and he was head coach in Hibbing for 20 years, yet Hibbing is still light years behind STA and Breck.)
The "hockey is king" culture on the range is its biggest asset. The metro definitely doesn't have that mentality to the same extremes those up north do. (The "hockey is king" culture is even greater in Warroad and Roseau, but I don't think those teams would have beaten STA or Breck more than once combined in the last 6-7 years. It could be because Warroad and Roseau are small towns and the metro A privates are located in an area of 2.5 million people, but that's just my opinion.)
Yes there have been examples of small schools outperforming big ones, plenty. Warroad and Roseau have won titles very recently. You are wrong.rainier wrote:Not in MN Class A boys and girls hockey.
Level with me man, do you know what hyperbole is? Do you understand how your statement here is hyperbole? Take a step back and answer the previous question honestly without going off in a different direction with this.rainier wrote:Then why doesn't every major league team have a dominican manager? If it's better coaches that make the difference and the Dominican is this successful, then every baseball GM worth his own salt would hire a Dominican coach.
Great we agree. How good a player a person was does not directly correlate to how good a coach they will be, this is the Wayne Gretzky analogy. Bill Snyder went to William Jewell College, an NAIA member, before he became one of the greatest college coaches in recent history. How good a player is does not correlate with how good a coach he is.rainier wrote:It doesn't guarantee it, but people who have played at that level and above usually make for better coaches than those that haven't. Not always, but most of the time would be my guess.
Consensus from who? And you literally just said, "he's good at being a head coach because he's been coach for 20 years at Hibbing." For a program that's been to state less than a handful of times in his tenure it might be time to reevaluate your expectations.rainier wrote:And a general consensus seems to be that Hibbing's coach is one of the best in the state, and he was head coach in Hibbing for 20 years, yet Hibbing is still light years behind STA and Breck.
Considering Warroad/Roseau have played STA only 3 times in that timespan its not a ridiculous notion. Warroad is batting .500 against STA, with their win being the better of the two considering it was a semifinal versus STA winning the 3rd place game matchup.rainier wrote:The "hockey is king" culture is even greater in Warroad and Roseau, but I don't think those teams would have beaten STA or Breck more than once combined in the last 6-7 years. It could be because Warroad and Roseau are small towns and the metro A privates are located in an area of 2.5 million people, but that's just my opinion.
thestickler07 wrote:Yes there have been examples of small schools outperforming big ones, plenty. Warroad and Roseau have won titles very recently. You are wrong.rainier wrote:Not in MN Class A boys and girls hockey.
(Do you consider 7 out of 25 "plenty"? Do you consider 91% of the teams accounting for only 28% of the titles "plenty"? Wouldn't calling this low rate of winning titles "plenty" be considered some seriously heavy hyperbole? And haven't Roseau and Warroad experienced significant drop offs and then only slight rises since those titles? Breck and STA especially have not. That is because they are in a major metropolitan area of 2.5 million people and are not at the mercy of talent cycles to anywhere near the degree those two small schools are. You can argue against this all you want, but it sure doesn't make you look good. )
Level with me man, do you know what hyperbole is? Do you understand how your statement here is hyperbole? Take a step back and answer the previous question honestly without going off in a different direction with this.rainier wrote:Then why doesn't every major league team have a dominican manager? If it's better coaches that make the difference and the Dominican is this successful, then every baseball GM worth his own salt would hire a Dominican coach.
(Yes, I know what hyperbole is, in fact I was able to find it a couple times in your post. I admit it is hyperbole, you got me Sherlock, but the fact remains that a coach is really only as good as his talent, maybe he can push them a little beyond their capabilities, but not much. Bill Belichick is one of the greatest coaches in NFL history yet he failed miserably his first time as a coach and didn't become great until he got Tom Brady. Even Bud Grant said talent trumps coaching, and given the access to huge pools of talent that STA and Breck have, I don't give their coaches as much credit for dominating in Class A.)
Great we agree. How good a player a person was does not directly correlate to how good a coach they will be, this is the Wayne Gretzky analogy. Bill Snyder went to William Jewell College, an NAIA member, before he became one of the greatest college coaches in recent history. How good a player is does not correlate with how good a coach he is. (I asked you before what your criteria was for judging what a good coach is, but you didn't give it to me. And I just can't call the STA coaches great or even good given that they have used kids from multiple AA-sized communities to dominate small schools in A. And who would you hire for a coach, someone who played D1 or someone who didn't, given neither of them had any previous coaching experience?)rainier wrote:It doesn't guarantee it, but people who have played at that level and above usually make for better coaches than those that haven't. Not always, but most of the time would be my guess.
Consensus from who? (I have seen many people on this forum use him as an example of a great coach, and do you know why? I'll explain. He got his team to the 7A final 10 consecutive years without ever being the #1 seed and without ever being upset by a lower seeded team, something the STA coaches couldn't do in Class A with teams that were top ten in PageStat ratings. So excuse me if I think he knows what he is doing.)rainier wrote:And a general consensus seems to be that Hibbing's coach is one of the best in the state, and he was head coach in Hibbing for 20 years, yet Hibbing is still light years behind STA and Breck.
And you literally just said, "he's good at being a head coach because he's been coach for 20 years at Hibbing." For a program that's been to state less than a handful of times in his tenure it might be time to reevaluate your expectations.
(Do you want to know why he didn't make it to state more? I'll tell you. Hibbing plays in 7A, a section that has always had Hermantown or Duluth Marshall, two of the top Class A programs over the last decade, and they also had to compete with Virginia, who over the last decade produced NHLer Matt Niskanen, and D1 players Kishel, Sachetti, and Hendrickson, Duluth Denfeld is one the largest A schools, and International Falls is always a solid A team. They are in one of the toughest A sections in the state and he has done an outstanding job.
Would you like to know another reason he doesn't have more state trips? Hibbing had some of their best teams from '96-'00, but do you know what they did? They opted up. Therefore they competed against Duluth East, Grand Rapids, Cloquet, Elk River, and even Greenway was still an AA player during this time. Hibbing could have just stayed in A and trounced Duluth Central, Proctor, Eveleth, and Silver Bay, the teams that won 7A those seasons, but they did something that seems very foreign to you, they challenged themselves against the best competition. I would take the satisfaction of knowing my team didn't take the easy way out over STA's progressively empty trophies any day. But that's just me. I wasn't sure if it was possible for you to get owned more completely than you did the first time you brought up the coaching issue, but apparently I was wrong. Keep reaching for the stars, stickles. )
Considering Warroad/Roseau have played STA only 3 times in that timespan its not a ridiculous notion. Warroad is batting .500 against STA, with their win being the better of the two considering it was a semifinal versus STA winning the 3rd place game matchup.rainier wrote:The "hockey is king" culture is even greater in Warroad and Roseau, but I don't think those teams would have beaten STA or Breck more than once combined in the last 6-7 years. It could be because Warroad and Roseau are small towns and the metro A privates are located in an area of 2.5 million people, but that's just my opinion.
The 11-12 Roseau team that went 16-10-1 lost to arguably the best STA team EVER.
(Are you seriously trying to say Warroad and Roseau are on a level playing field with STA? Didn't you just chastise me for using hyperbole? Just because you have convinced yourself that something completely outrageous is true doesn't mean it's still not hyperbole. What little credibility you yet cling to dissolves that much faster when you make claims of this nature.)
Can we get some fresh blood in this thread? (Why? Are you hoping to find someone else, someone who is willing to back down from your onslaught of weak arguments?) Rainier's troll game has fallen off more than Bluejackets hockey. (If you wanted to find a good example of something falling off sharply, you should have used either "respect for STA" see: Lou Nanne's comments or "stickler's ability to come up with an argument that doesn't have more holes than swiss cheese." see: any of his posts. Lol indeed, my friend, lol indeed.)
rainier wrote:thestickler07 wrote:Yes there have been examples of small schools outperforming big ones, plenty. Warroad and Roseau have won titles very recently. You are wrong.rainier wrote:Not in MN Class A boys and girls hockey.
(Do you consider 7 out of 25 "plenty"? Do you consider 91% of the teams accounting for only 28% of the titles "plenty"? Wouldn't calling this low rate of winning titles "plenty" be considered some seriously heavy hyperbole? And haven't Roseau and Warroad experienced significant drop offs and then only slight rises since those titles? Breck and STA especially have not. That is because they are in a major metropolitan area of 2.5 million people and are not at the mercy of talent cycles to anywhere near the degree those two small schools are. You can argue against this all you want, but it sure doesn't make you look good. )
Level with me man, do you know what hyperbole is? Do you understand how your statement here is hyperbole? Take a step back and answer the previous question honestly without going off in a different direction with this.rainier wrote:Then why doesn't every major league team have a dominican manager? If it's better coaches that make the difference and the Dominican is this successful, then every baseball GM worth his own salt would hire a Dominican coach.
(Yes, I know what hyperbole is, in fact I was able to find it a couple times in your post. I admit it is hyperbole, you got me Sherlock, but the fact remains that a coach is really only as good as his talent, maybe he can push them a little beyond their capabilities, but not much. Bill Belichick is one of the greatest coaches in NFL history yet he failed miserably his first time as a coach and didn't become great until he got Tom Brady. Even Bud Grant said talent trumps coaching, and given the access to huge pools of talent that STA and Breck have, I don't give their coaches as much credit for dominating in Class A.)
Great we agree. How good a player a person was does not directly correlate to how good a coach they will be, this is the Wayne Gretzky analogy. Bill Snyder went to William Jewell College, an NAIA member, before he became one of the greatest college coaches in recent history. How good a player is does not correlate with how good a coach he is. (I asked you before what your criteria was for judging what a good coach is, but you didn't give it to me. And I just can't call the STA coaches great or even good given that they have used kids from multiple AA-sized communities to dominate small schools in A. And who would you hire for a coach, someone who played D1 or someone who didn't, given neither of them had any previous coaching experience?)rainier wrote:It doesn't guarantee it, but people who have played at that level and above usually make for better coaches than those that haven't. Not always, but most of the time would be my guess.
Consensus from who? (I have seen many people on this forum use him as an example of a great coach, and do you know why? I'll explain. He got his team to the 7A final 10 consecutive years without ever being the #1 seed and without ever being upset by a lower seeded team, something the STA coaches couldn't do in Class A with teams that were top ten in PageStat ratings. So excuse me if I think he knows what he is doing.)rainier wrote:And a general consensus seems to be that Hibbing's coach is one of the best in the state, and he was head coach in Hibbing for 20 years, yet Hibbing is still light years behind STA and Breck.
And you literally just said, "he's good at being a head coach because he's been coach for 20 years at Hibbing." For a program that's been to state less than a handful of times in his tenure it might be time to reevaluate your expectations.
(Do you want to know why he didn't make it to state more? I'll tell you. Hibbing plays in 7A, a section that has always had Hermantown or Duluth Marshall, two of the top Class A programs over the last decade, and they also had to compete with Virginia, who over the last decade produced NHLer Matt Niskanen, and D1 players Kishel, Sachetti, and Hendrickson, Duluth Denfeld is one the largest A schools, and International Falls is always a solid A team. They are in one of the toughest A sections in the state and he has done an outstanding job.
Would you like to know another reason he doesn't have more state trips? Hibbing had some of their best teams from '96-'00, but do you know what they did? They opted up. Therefore they competed against Duluth East, Grand Rapids, Cloquet, Elk River, and even Greenway was still an AA player during this time. Hibbing could have just stayed in A and trounced Duluth Central, Proctor, Eveleth, and Silver Bay, the teams that won 7A those seasons, but they did something that seems very foreign to you, they challenged themselves against the best competition. I would take the satisfaction of knowing my team didn't take the easy way out over STA's progressively empty trophies any day. But that's just me. I wasn't sure if it was possible for you to get owned more completely than you did the first time you brought up the coaching issue, but apparently I was wrong. Keep reaching for the stars, stickles. )
Considering Warroad/Roseau have played STA only 3 times in that timespan its not a ridiculous notion. Warroad is batting .500 against STA, with their win being the better of the two considering it was a semifinal versus STA winning the 3rd place game matchup.rainier wrote:The "hockey is king" culture is even greater in Warroad and Roseau, but I don't think those teams would have beaten STA or Breck more than once combined in the last 6-7 years. It could be because Warroad and Roseau are small towns and the metro A privates are located in an area of 2.5 million people, but that's just my opinion.
The 11-12 Roseau team that went 16-10-1 lost to arguably the best STA team EVER.
(Are you seriously trying to say Warroad and Roseau are on a level playing field with STA? Didn't you just chastise me for using hyperbole? Just because you have convinced yourself that something completely outrageous is true doesn't mean it's still not hyperbole. What little credibility you yet cling to dissolves that much faster when you make claims of this nature.)
Can we get some fresh blood in this thread? (Why? Are you hoping to find someone else, someone who is willing to back down from your onslaught of weak arguments?) Rainier's troll game has fallen off more than Bluejackets hockey. (If you wanted to find a good example of something falling off sharply, you should have used either "respect for STA" see: Lou Nanne's comments or "stickler's ability to come up with an argument that doesn't have more holes than swiss cheese." see: any of his posts. Lol indeed, my friend, lol indeed.)
thestickler07 wrote:Yes there have been examples of small schools outperforming big ones, plenty. Warroad and Roseau have won titles very recently. You are wrong.rainier wrote:Not in MN Class A boys and girls hockey.
Roseau is a typical. They are the program that all other small schools want to emulate.
Warroad does well against small, public schools and sometimes rises above.
Level with me man, do you know what hyperbole is? Do you understand how your statement here is hyperbole? Take a step back and answer the previous question honestly without going off in a different direction with this.rainier wrote:Then why doesn't every major league team have a dominican manager? If it's better coaches that make the difference and the Dominican is this successful, then every baseball GM worth his own salt would hire a Dominican coach.
Dominican baseball??? Really??? Every boy in DR dreams of the glory and money of the MLB. Every boy in the DR plays baseball. There are 3 of the best training facilities in the world there. They have top notch coaches, trainers and educators. DR baseball, really???
Great we agree. How good a player a person was does not directly correlate to how good a coach they will be, this is the Wayne Gretzky analogy. Bill Snyder went to William Jewell College, an NAIA member, before he became one of the greatest college coaches in recent history. How good a player is does not correlate with how good a coach he is.rainier wrote:It doesn't guarantee it, but people who have played at that level and above usually make for better coaches than those that haven't. Not always, but most of the time would be my guess.
We all agree.
Consensus from who? And you literally just said, "he's good at being a head coach because he's been coach for 20 years at Hibbing." For a program that's been to state less than a handful of times in his tenure it might be time to reevaluate your expectations.rainier wrote:And a general consensus seems to be that Hibbing's coach is one of the best in the state, and he was head coach in Hibbing for 20 years, yet Hibbing is still light years behind STA and Breck.
Everyone knows the quality of the Hibbing coach. He will be difficult to replace.
Considering Warroad/Roseau have played STA only 3 times in that timespan its not a ridiculous notion. Warroad is batting .500 against STA, with their win being the better of the two considering it was a semifinal versus STA winning the 3rd place game matchup.rainier wrote:The "hockey is king" culture is even greater in Warroad and Roseau, but I don't think those teams would have beaten STA or Breck more than once combined in the last 6-7 years. It could be because Warroad and Roseau are small towns and the metro A privates are located in an area of 2.5 million people, but that's just my opinion.
The 11-12 Roseau team that went 16-10-1 lost to arguably the best STA team EVER.
Can we get some fresh blood in this thread? Rainier's troll game has fallen off more than Bluejackets hockey.
You said small schools didn't compete in high school hockey in MN. Obviously they do. Your rant about my use of the word "plenty" is superfluous because its not the principle. See how you are trying to argue degrees again? You said that outstate schools don't compete in Class A hockey, I proved you wrong.rainier wrote:Not in MN Class A boys and girls hockey. Do you consider 7 out of 25 "plenty"? Do you consider 91% of the teams accounting for only 28% of the titles "plenty"? Wouldn't calling this low rate of winning titles "plenty" be considered some seriously heavy hyperbole? And haven't Roseau and Warroad experienced significant drop offs and then only slight rises since those titles? Breck and STA especially have not. That is because they are in a major metropolitan area of 2.5 million people and are not at the mercy of talent cycles to anywhere near the degree those two small schools are. You can argue against this all you want, but it sure doesn't make you look good.
You can't on one hand say that coaches are only as good as the players they have, and then try and sneak in a "maybe he can push them a little beyond their capabilities" after. You just contradicted yourself. The whole point of coaching is that a good one can create something that is better than the sum of its parts. And the Vannellis have a ~.660 winning percentage against AA teams so while you might not want to give them credit they are obviously doing something right.rainier wrote:Yes, I know what hyperbole is, in fact I was able to find it a couple times in your post. I admit it is hyperbole, you got me Sherlock, but the fact remains that a coach is really only as good as his talent, maybe he can push them a little beyond their capabilities, but not much. Bill Belichick is one of the greatest coaches in NFL history yet he failed miserably his first time as a coach and didn't become great until he got Tom Brady. Even Bud Grant said talent trumps coaching, and given the access to huge pools of talent that STA and Breck have, I don't give their coaches as much credit for dominating in Class A.)
A good coach gets the most of out his players and wins. And I wouldn't hire either, I would look for someone who is experienced and actually has a track record of winning. Are you telling me none of the candidates that applied for the Hibbing job had previous head coaching experience? Because that's your implication by trying to trot out the "Division 1 player versus nobody" line.rainier wrote:I asked you before what your criteria was for judging what a good coach is, but you didn't give it to me. And I just can't call the STA coaches great or even good given that they have used kids from multiple AA-sized communities to dominate small schools in A. And who would you hire for a coach, someone who played D1 or someone who didn't, given neither of them had any previous coaching experience?)
This might be one of the the mostrainier wrote:I have seen many people on this forum use him as an example of a great coach
worthy posts in the history of the forum. I wouldn't exactly classify the rank and file posters of this board as a hockey brain trust.Ok you think he's doing a better job coaching than the Vannellis, that's an interesting take. I guess we just have a different definition of what a good coach is. I'd take the Vannellis every day of the week.rainier wrote:He got his team to the 7A final 10 consecutive years without ever being the #1 seed and without ever being upset by a lower seeded team, something the STA coaches couldn't do in Class A with teams that were top ten in PageStat ratings. So excuse me if I think he knows what he is doing.
No. I don't "want to know", I don't care about any excuses that you might make to rationalize your level of competition. Why you think Hibbing isn't doing well doesn't factor into anything to do with my day. You seem to be the opposite where the success of STA keeps you up at night. You think he's doing an "outstanding job", we have different levels of expectation.rainier wrote:Do you want to know why he didn't make it to state more? I'll tell you. Hibbing plays in 7A, a section that has always had Hermantown or Duluth Marshall, two of the top Class A programs over the last decade, and they also had to compete with Virginia, who over the last decade produced NHLer Matt Niskanen, and D1 players Kishel, Sachetti, and Hendrickson, Duluth Denfeld is one the largest A schools, and International Falls is always a solid A team. They are in one of the toughest A sections in the state and he has done an outstanding job.
Smh... I AGREED with you that Warroad/Roseau have only beaten STA once in the last 6-7 years. There is no hyperbole in this statement, which kind of makes me question your knowledge of its application. I just stated that Warroad/Roseau played STA a combined 3 times, its not as if STA is 20-1 against these guys, they hardly play each other.rainier wrote:Are you seriously trying to say Warroad and Roseau are on a level playing field with STA? Didn't you just chastise me for using hyperbole? Just because you have convinced yourself that something completely outrageous is true doesn't mean it's still not hyperbole. What little credibility you yet cling to dissolves that much faster when you make claims of this nature.
What do boys dream about playing in Hibbing, or International Falls, or Warroad?elliott70 wrote:Dominican baseball??? Really??? Every boy in DR dreams of the glory and money of the MLB. Every boy in the DR plays baseball. There are 3 of the best training facilities in the world there. They have top notch coaches, trainers and educators. DR baseball, really???
Talk to your boy rainier then, he doesn't seem to.elliott70 wrote:We all agree.
Is he considering moving on in the near future? Has he been talked to about other vacancies, I'm curious about his potential growth in coaching.elliott70 wrote:Everyone knows the quality of the Hibbing coach. He will be difficult to replace.
Yeah, funny how I include healthy amounts of actual data in my responses, something the Sandbag Patrol should try to use from time to time. It's pretty hilarious that you are trying to rip me for using historical facts and statistics to back up my arguments. It would seem you prefer to debate those who don't take the time to do this. I wonder why that would be?bemused wrote:rainier wrote:thestickler07 wrote: Yes there have been examples of small schools outperforming big ones, plenty. Warroad and Roseau have won titles very recently. You are wrong.
(Do you consider 7 out of 25 "plenty"? Do you consider 91% of the teams accounting for only 28% of the titles "plenty"? Wouldn't calling this low rate of winning titles "plenty" be considered some seriously heavy hyperbole? And haven't Roseau and Warroad experienced significant drop offs and then only slight rises since those titles? Breck and STA especially have not. That is because they are in a major metropolitan area of 2.5 million people and are not at the mercy of talent cycles to anywhere near the degree those two small schools are. You can argue against this all you want, but it sure doesn't make you look good. )
Level with me man, do you know what hyperbole is? Do you understand how your statement here is hyperbole? Take a step back and answer the previous question honestly without going off in a different direction with this.
(Yes, I know what hyperbole is, in fact I was able to find it a couple times in your post. I admit it is hyperbole, you got me Sherlock, but the fact remains that a coach is really only as good as his talent, maybe he can push them a little beyond their capabilities, but not much. Bill Belichick is one of the greatest coaches in NFL history yet he failed miserably his first time as a coach and didn't become great until he got Tom Brady. Even Bud Grant said talent trumps coaching, and given the access to huge pools of talent that STA and Breck have, I don't give their coaches as much credit for dominating in Class A.)
Great we agree. How good a player a person was does not directly correlate to how good a coach they will be, this is the Wayne Gretzky analogy. Bill Snyder went to William Jewell College, an NAIA member, before he became one of the greatest college coaches in recent history. How good a player is does not correlate with how good a coach he is. (I asked you before what your criteria was for judging what a good coach is, but you didn't give it to me. And I just can't call the STA coaches great or even good given that they have used kids from multiple AA-sized communities to dominate small schools in A. And who would you hire for a coach, someone who played D1 or someone who didn't, given neither of them had any previous coaching experience?)
Consensus from who? (I have seen many people on this forum use him as an example of a great coach, and do you know why? I'll explain. He got his team to the 7A final 10 consecutive years without ever being the #1 seed and without ever being upset by a lower seeded team, something the STA coaches couldn't do in Class A with teams that were top ten in PageStat ratings. So excuse me if I think he knows what he is doing.)
And you literally just said, "he's good at being a head coach because he's been coach for 20 years at Hibbing." For a program that's been to state less than a handful of times in his tenure it might be time to reevaluate your expectations.
(Do you want to know why he didn't make it to state more? I'll tell you. Hibbing plays in 7A, a section that has always had Hermantown or Duluth Marshall, two of the top Class A programs over the last decade, and they also had to compete with Virginia, who over the last decade produced NHLer Matt Niskanen, and D1 players Kishel, Sachetti, and Hendrickson, Duluth Denfeld is one the largest A schools, and International Falls is always a solid A team. They are in one of the toughest A sections in the state and he has done an outstanding job.
Would you like to know another reason he doesn't have more state trips? Hibbing had some of their best teams from '96-'00, but do you know what they did? They opted up. Therefore they competed against Duluth East, Grand Rapids, Cloquet, Elk River, and even Greenway was still an AA player during this time. Hibbing could have just stayed in A and trounced Duluth Central, Proctor, Eveleth, and Silver Bay, the teams that won 7A those seasons, but they did something that seems very foreign to you, they challenged themselves against the best competition. I would take the satisfaction of knowing my team didn't take the easy way out over STA's progressively empty trophies any day. But that's just me. I wasn't sure if it was possible for you to get owned more completely than you did the first time you brought up the coaching issue, but apparently I was wrong. Keep reaching for the stars, stickles. )
Considering Warroad/Roseau have played STA only 3 times in that timespan its not a ridiculous notion. Warroad is batting .500 against STA, with their win being the better of the two considering it was a semifinal versus STA winning the 3rd place game matchup.
The 11-12 Roseau team that went 16-10-1 lost to arguably the best STA team EVER.
(Are you seriously trying to say Warroad and Roseau are on a level playing field with STA? Didn't you just chastise me for using hyperbole? Just because you have convinced yourself that something completely outrageous is true doesn't mean it's still not hyperbole. What little credibility you yet cling to dissolves that much faster when you make claims of this nature.)
Can we get some fresh blood in this thread? (Why? Are you hoping to find someone else, someone who is willing to back down from your onslaught of weak arguments?) Rainier's troll game has fallen off more than Bluejackets hockey. (If you wanted to find a good example of something falling off sharply, you should have used either "respect for STA" see: Lou Nanne's comments or "stickler's ability to come up with an argument that doesn't have more holes than swiss cheese." see: any of his posts. Lol indeed, my friend, lol indeed.)
Well,
The good news is he will have to dig up all of Breck's numbers' for next year's data dump...And I will be interested to see the spin after Hermantown rips off 3 or 4 in a row...
thestickler07 wrote:What do boys dream about playing in Hibbing, or International Falls, or Warroad?elliott70 wrote:Dominican baseball??? Really??? Every boy in DR dreams of the glory and money of the MLB. Every boy in the DR plays baseball. There are 3 of the best training facilities in the world there. They have top notch coaches, trainers and educators. DR baseball, really???
And do you think the ice access/training resources they have in the range is typical of 99% of the United States or the world?
The point is....
Why would you bring Dominican baseball players into this debate?
And FYI, I have lived in and have had hockey dealings with all 3 cities mentioned. No, these boys do not dream to the same level of Roseau boys. Roseau has nearly 90% capture rate, the other 3 towns are lucky to have 30%.
Talk to your boy rainier then, he doesn't seem to.elliott70 wrote:We all agree.
Not my boy. He is his own man and seems to be proving himself very capable against guys that simply cannot admit that there is an advantage for metroesque private schools. For some it is simply the educaton, but some have been able to forge success in sports. Why?, I think that has been covered on this and similar threads over the years.
Some of us begrudege it and want the rules revised, some of us just take it wtih a grain of salt.
So Go Pioneers, but I have to cheer for the Spuds/Warriors becasue they are 'neighbors'. Or East or Rapids for similar reasons.
I won't cheer for STA, for my own reasons (none of which have to do with this 'bored').Is he considering moving on in the near future? Has he been talked to about other vacancies, I'm curious about his potential growth in coaching.elliott70 wrote:Everyone knows the quality of the Hibbing coach. He will be difficult to replace.
thestickler07 wrote:You said small schools didn't compete in high school hockey in MN. (No, I said small schools can't compete with the metro private school teams sandbagging in Class A.) Obviously they do. Your rant about my use of the word "plenty" is superfluous because its not the principle. (How is it not the principle? You say "plenty", but then I show stats that refute your claim of plenty. I'm starting to pick up that familiar scent of the wily weasel.) See how you are trying to argue degrees again? (What is it with you guys and your inability to allow human judgement into any debate? Of course I'm arguing about degrees. You said small schools win "plenty" of titles, but I don't think winning only 3 of the last 14 boys titles qualifies as "plenty". I don't think anyone would. Anyone that wasn't trying to weasel their way out of being wrong, that is.) You said that outstate schools don't compete in Class A hockey, I proved you wrong. (They don't, 3 out of 14 titles isn't competing very well, especially when they make up 91% of the teams in Class A. What was it that you proved again?)rainier wrote:Not in MN Class A boys and girls hockey. Do you consider 7 out of 25 "plenty"? Do you consider 91% of the teams accounting for only 28% of the titles "plenty"? Wouldn't calling this low rate of winning titles "plenty" be considered some seriously heavy hyperbole? And haven't Roseau and Warroad experienced significant drop offs and then only slight rises since those titles? Breck and STA especially have not. That is because they are in a major metropolitan area of 2.5 million people and are not at the mercy of talent cycles to anywhere near the degree those two small schools are. You can argue against this all you want, but it sure doesn't make you look good.
You can't on one hand say that coaches are only as good as the players they have, and then try and sneak in a "maybe he can push them a little beyond their capabilities" after. You just contradicted yourself. (You're good.) The whole point of coaching is that a good one can create something that is better than the sum of its parts. And the Vannellis have a ~.660 winning percentage against AA teams so while you might not want to give them credit they are obviously doing something right. (They sure have mastered the art of winning in Class A with teams that are almost always top ten in the PageStat ratings. And bringing up their excellent winning % against AA teams only really strengthens my point that they are sandbagging severely in A. Kind of nice how you made my point for me and managed to own yourself just as severely as I have been doing.)rainier wrote:Yes, I know what hyperbole is, in fact I was able to find it a couple times in your post. I admit it is hyperbole, you got me Sherlock, but the fact remains that a coach is really only as good as his talent, maybe he can push them a little beyond their capabilities, but not much. Bill Belichick is one of the greatest coaches in NFL history yet he failed miserably his first time as a coach and didn't become great until he got Tom Brady. Even Bud Grant said talent trumps coaching, and given the access to huge pools of talent that STA and Breck have, I don't give their coaches as much credit for dominating in Class A.)
A good coach gets the most of out his players and wins. And I wouldn't hire either, I would look for someone who is experienced and actually has a track record of winning. (I only gave you two choices, Einstein, bringing in another candidate was not an option.) Are you telling me none of the candidates that applied for the Hibbing job had previous head coaching experience? (I don't know.) Because that's your implication by trying to trot out the "Division 1 player versus nobody" line. (I was just refuting your claim that being a D1 player doesn't make you a better coach by seeing who you would choose if everything else were equal. But instead of being forced to be wrong, you weasel out by pulling a third candidate out of thin air.)rainier wrote:I asked you before what your criteria was for judging what a good coach is, but you didn't give it to me. And I just can't call the STA coaches great or even good given that they have used kids from multiple AA-sized communities to dominate small schools in A. And who would you hire for a coach, someone who played D1 or someone who didn't, given neither of them had any previous coaching experience?)
This might be one of the the mostrainier wrote:I have seen many people on this forum use him as an example of a great coach
Ok you think he's doing a better job coaching than the Vannellis, that's an interesting take. I guess we just have a different definition of what a good coach is. I'd take the Vannellis every day of the week. (Fair enough, but I would take the guy who has actually competed in AA playoffs before. I'm not saying the Vannellis are bad coaches, but I sure as heck don't think they are significantly better than DeCenzo. I don't think anybody does.)rainier wrote:He got his team to the 7A final 10 consecutive years without ever being the #1 seed and without ever being upset by a lower seeded team, something the STA coaches couldn't do in Class A with teams that were top ten in PageStat ratings. So excuse me if I think he knows what he is doing.
No. I don't "want to know",(That seems to be a pattern with you.) I don't care about any excuses that you might make to rationalize your level of competition. Why you think Hibbing isn't doing well doesn't factor into anything to do with my day. (It seems to factor enough for you to keep commenting on them.) You seem to be the opposite where the success of STA keeps you up at night. You think he's doing an "outstanding job", we have different levels of expectation. (Okay, you expect to dominate in Class A with a clearly Class AA team. I see where you're coming from with that.)rainier wrote:Do you want to know why he didn't make it to state more? I'll tell you. Hibbing plays in 7A, a section that has always had Hermantown or Duluth Marshall, two of the top Class A programs over the last decade, and they also had to compete with Virginia, who over the last decade produced NHLer Matt Niskanen, and D1 players Kishel, Sachetti, and Hendrickson, Duluth Denfeld is one the largest A schools, and International Falls is always a solid A team. They are in one of the toughest A sections in the state and he has done an outstanding job.
Smh... I AGREED with you that Warroad/Roseau have only beaten STA once in the last 6-7 years. There is no hyperbole in this statement, which kind of makes me question your knowledge of its application. I just stated that Warroad/Roseau played STA a combined 3 times, its not as if STA is 20-1 against these guys, they hardly play each other. (My point was that I don't think they would have beaten STA more than once or twice over the last 6-7 years. I know it's an assertion, but given STA's consistently high PageStat ratings, I think it's supported by what little evidence is out there. You are free to disagree without anything to back up your claim.)rainier wrote:Are you seriously trying to say Warroad and Roseau are on a level playing field with STA? Didn't you just chastise me for using hyperbole? Just because you have convinced yourself that something completely outrageous is true doesn't mean it's still not hyperbole. What little credibility you yet cling to dissolves that much faster when you make claims of this nature.
Because if you remove the word plenty from my post your point is still refuted. You are moving the goalposts by going from "don't compete at all" to "don't compete enough consistently". One is provable (I have done so), one is your deeply held opinion which I'm guessing isn't going to change.rainier wrote:How is it not the principle?
Thanks. You couldn't have expected me to avoid highlighting that you went against your own point before ending that sentence though right?rainier wrote:You're good.
I take it you agree with me that coaching means getting more out of a team than a sum of its parts? Glad we finally have closure on what it means to be a good coach.rainier wrote:But instead of being forced to be wrong, you weasel out by pulling a third candidate out of thin air.
What's your point? Because you aren't the only person that holds that opinion it must be true? That surely can't be the your ace in the hole on this one...rainier wrote:What are you saying about yourself? And it took a whole 2 minutes for someone to come on here and second my claim that the Hibbing coach is very good.
Clarify something for me. On one hand you say that you'd take the coach who has competed in the AA playoffs before(DeCenzo), but then you go on to say that you don't think that the Vannellis are "significantly better" than him. By saying you don't think they are "significantly better" you are saying that the Vannellis are better, do you understand that? My last question would be why would you want a coach that isn't as good?rainier wrote:Fair enough, but I would take the guy who has actually competed in AA playoffs before. I'm not saying the Vannellis are bad coaches, but I sure as heck don't think they are significantly better than DeCenzo. I don't think anybody does.
What can I say? You entertain me.rainier wrote:It seems to factor enough for you to keep commenting on them.
You can use whatever predictive or hypothetical metric you want, I'm just looking at the actual results of games. Warroad/Roseau are hardly lambs being led to the slaughter against STA, I give their programs a lot more credit than that. STA vs Richfield/Simley? Not so much.rainier wrote:My point was that I don't think they would have beaten STA more than once or twice over the last 6-7 years. I know it's an assertion, but given STA's consistently high PageStat ratings, I think it's supported by what little evidence is out there. You are free to disagree without anything to back up your claim.