Private School Trash talk thread

[HappyHockeyFan]

Does no one remember what made the Minnesota Boys State Hockey Tournament so alluring?
It was one community raised and developed team vs. the others. School, team and community pride vs. the others. 20 guys growing up together, playing together, developing together, and dreaming of playing in the state tournament with their life long friends. It was not intended to be a forum for all star teams, pulled together from a wide sweeping geographic area, who's players, at one point simply got into Mom and Dad's Volvo, headed over to STA, shook hands with the other 19 guys, and went about beating small community school teams 12-1 and 11-0 before smirkingly going into rope-a dope mode.... Truly shameful, and truly insulting to what the two class tourney was intended for. Anyone who does not understand this concept is simply in denial. I applaud Plante for not tap dancing around the issue like almost everyone else. To mentions STA's "3 peat" with those of Eveleth (4), International Falls and Bloomington Jefferson is blasphemy....an aberration...... My remedy? All privates play at the AA level come tournament time, and come tournament time, they are all seeded in their own section... with one team advancing to the State Tournament. This will make kids think twice before leaving their geographic HS boundary to play.... And no, I do not buy the argument that they players are there for the "education"...Sadly, this is becomming a hockey business.

Great post, could not agree more, LOVE the all private section idea !! Perhaps the State Legislature needs to be involved, thats how we got a 2 class system in the first place, it was forced by the state that the MSHSL give more kids the opportunity to play for a state championship. I may have to make a call or two and drum up some interest...

[basconi]

As stated before I too would like to see a separate tournament for public and private. I enjoyed going to both.
The problem with the private tournament would be interest. Aside from students and some parents they have no fan base. Most hockey fans in Mn really would have an interest in a private school tournament. I think the MSHSL knows that and there wouldn't be much of a return on investment. It would be much less attended than the A is now.

[basconi]

Whoops my bad previous post should have read most Mn hockey fans wouldn't have and interest in private school tourn.

[Nostalgic Nerd]

Does no one remember what made the Minnesota Boys State Hockey Tournament so alluring?
It was one community raised and developed team vs. the others. School, team and community pride vs. the others. 20 guys growing up together, playing together, developing together, and dreaming of playing in the state tournament with their life long friends. It was not intended to be a forum for all star teams, pulled together from a wide sweeping geographic area, who's players, at one point simply got into Mom and Dad's Volvo, headed over to STA, shook hands with the other 19 guys, and went about beating small community school teams 12-1 and 11-0 before smirkingly going into rope-a dope mode.... Truly shameful, and truly insulting to what the two class tourney was intended for. Anyone who does not understand this concept is simply in denial. I applaud Plante for not tap dancing around the issue like almost everyone else. To mentions STA's "3 peat" with those of Eveleth (4), International Falls and Bloomington Jefferson is blasphemy....an aberration...... My remedy? All privates play at the AA level come tournament time, and come tournament time, they are all seeded in their own section... with one team advancing to the State Tournament. This will make kids think twice before leaving their geographic HS boundary to play.... And no, I do not buy the argument that they players are there for the "education"...Sadly, this is becomming a hockey business.

Great post, could not agree more, LOVE the all private section idea !! Perhaps the State Legislature needs to be involved, thats how we got a 2 class system in the first place, it was forced by the state that the MSHSL give more kids the opportunity to play for a state championship. I may have to make a call or two and drum up some interest...

Sounds nice but it's not possible because a) it's a participation league, meaning privates included, and b) to get all privates in one geographic area to compete is too time consuming and costly. (Sectionals are set up primarily by geograph for a reason.) Not to mention that in order to make things deemed right you have to manipulate the system to get what you want. In principle it's unfortunate, but remember it is the public students who are making the decision to go private.

[rainier]

Does no one remember what made the Minnesota Boys State Hockey Tournament so alluring?
It was one community raised and developed team vs. the others. School, team and community pride vs. the others. 20 guys growing up together, playing together, developing together, and dreaming of playing in the state tournament with their life long friends. It was not intended to be a forum for all star teams, pulled together from a wide sweeping geographic area, who's players, at one point simply got into Mom and Dad's Volvo, headed over to STA, shook hands with the other 19 guys, and went about beating small community school teams 12-1 and 11-0 before smirkingly going into rope-a dope mode.... Truly shameful, and truly insulting to what the two class tourney was intended for. Anyone who does not understand this concept is simply in denial. I applaud Plante for not tap dancing around the issue like almost everyone else. To mentions STA's "3 peat" with those of Eveleth (4), International Falls and Bloomington Jefferson is blasphemy....an aberration...... My remedy? All privates play at the AA level come tournament time, and come tournament time, they are all seeded in their own section... with one team advancing to the State Tournament. This will make kids think twice before leaving their geographic HS boundary to play.... And no, I do not buy the argument that they players are there for the "education"...Sadly, this is becomming a hockey business.

Great post, could not agree more, LOVE the all private section idea !! Perhaps the State Legislature needs to be involved, thats how we got a 2 class system in the first place, it was forced by the state that the MSHSL give more kids the opportunity to play for a state championship. I may have to make a call or two and drum up some interest...

An all-private school section is the way to go. I count only 16 private schools in boys hockey, so it wouldn't be an outrageously large section. They would all be AA, and the 64 largest public schools would be divided between the other 7 sections in AA.

Private schools have set up their own educational system that is significantly different than the public school model, so it only makes sense that they should have their own section.

It would be quite a battle in that section, but having stacked sections is nothing new in HS hockey. (6AA now, 7AA for many years, etc.)

I will also be writing a letter to the MSHSL suggesting this happen, and I have seen plenty of other people suggest it as well, so perhaps we can get a petition going and submit that.

[eastsideguy]

Does no one remember what made the Minnesota Boys State Hockey Tournament so alluring?
It was one community raised and developed team vs. the others. School, team and community pride vs. the others. 20 guys growing up together, playing together, developing together, and dreaming of playing in the state tournament with their life long friends. It was not intended to be a forum for all star teams, pulled together from a wide sweeping geographic area, who's players, at one point simply got into Mom and Dad's Volvo, headed over to STA, shook hands with the other 19 guys, and went about beating small community school teams 12-1 and 11-0 before smirkingly going into rope-a dope mode.... Truly shameful, and truly insulting to what the two class tourney was intended for. Anyone who does not understand this concept is simply in denial. I applaud Plante for not tap dancing around the issue like almost everyone else. To mentions STA's "3 peat" with those of Eveleth (4), International Falls and Bloomington Jefferson is blasphemy....an aberration...... My remedy? All privates play at the AA level come tournament time, and come tournament time, they are all seeded in their own section... with one team advancing to the State Tournament. This will make kids think twice before leaving their geographic HS boundary to play.... And no, I do not buy the argument that they players are there for the "education"...Sadly, this is becomming a hockey business.

Great post, could not agree more, LOVE the all private section idea !! Perhaps the State Legislature needs to be involved, thats how we got a 2 class system in the first place, it was forced by the state that the MSHSL give more kids the opportunity to play for a state championship. I may have to make a call or two and drum up some interest...

An all-private school section is the way to go. I count only 16 private schools in boys hockey, so it wouldn't be an outrageously large section. They would all be AA, and the 64 largest public schools would be divided between the other 7 sections in AA.

Private schools have set up their own educational system that is significantly different than the public school model, so it only makes sense that they should have their own section.

It would be quite a battle in that section, but having stacked sections is nothing new in HS hockey. (6AA now, 7AA for many years, etc.)

I will also be writing a letter to the MSHSL suggesting this happen, and I have seen plenty of other people suggest it as well, so perhaps we can get a petition going and submit that.

Im not dismissing your idea, quite frankly probably alot of people think its great. My question to you would be do you really think the MSHSL would listen. I think they like the idea of great rivalries and matchups in section finals like:
WBL/Hill
Benilde/any of the other three
STA/Eagan potentially
Holy Angels/Edina HA has been down for a few years but this would have potential to be a great rivalry
Marshall/Hermantown
Breck/Orono
TG/Mahtomedi

maybe not...just not sure it was a coincendence were STA and Hermantown ended up

[thestickler07]

If we are throwing out unrealistic ideas for section/state here's one.

No opt ups. Top 64 schools by enrollment get big school designation and are assigned to section 1-8.

5 "small school" sections are created and the remaining teams are divided among them.

Private schools have no designated section tournament, instead the top 3 ranked privates in the state get to go. Without sections privates will have additional non-conference space on their schedule for a required minimum number of games against other private schools to determine best record among them.

Seed them 1-16, (not 1-9) and play them off.

[rainier]

I am planning to start an online petition using Change.org that asks the MSHSL to place all private schools in one AA section for boys HS hockey. The petition can be signed through email or via Facebook, and also easily shared with others through the same channels. It may not influence the MSHSL to take action, but then again, with enough signatures it just may. I think it's worth a try.

I would like to refine the "statement of importance" section, so I will put my first draft here and if anyone has any suggestions to improve it, please do not hesitate to post your ideas.

Here is what the petition form asks and my responses in bold:

Who do you want to petition? MSHSL

What do you want them to do? Place all private schools fielding teams in boys high school hockey into one section in Class AA.

Why is this important? Class A was created to give smaller community schools an opportunity to compete in the state hockey tournament. Despite this original intent, private schools from the Twin Cities metro area have won 12 of the last 15 Class A championships, clearly taking advantage of their enormous surrounding populations. Private schools have set up an educational model significantly different than that found at public schools, thus it only makes sense that a separate section be established to mitigate the inherent advantages enjoyed by private schools.

That's the first draft, so feel free to give me suggestions to improve and refine it.

[pekyman]

Great idea!
Send them a copy of the "Private School Trash Talk Thread"

[Lazy Scout]

The last I checked it was the Minnesota State High School Tournament. Nowhere does it say public high school state tournament. Private schools are considered high schools in this state. What does an educational model have to do with hockey tournaments? If the MSHSL would consider this they would have to do it for all sports, not just hockey, boys and girls across the board. There are tons of private schools that do not field a varsity hockey team but have many other varsity sports. One private high school made the AA state tournament this year. Four made A. I don't exactly see this as private schools dominating the state tournament.

Kids "move" in to public high school communties all the time. Like I said before, top hockey programs attract top hockey players regardless of public or private. One of Eagans best players was a move in this year and so was one of Edina's best players two years ago. If all privates are unfair and can recruit, then why is Blake, SPA, Minnehaha Academy, Providence Academy to name a few, dominating and winning at A?

Good luck trying to change the MSHSL.

[rainier]

Here's a great article about a high school football coach in Tennessee who coached a dominant private school for 35 years finally realizing the huge advantages private schools have after he went to work at a small public school.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012 ... viewpoint/

[Lazy Scout]

Then why has Hermantown been in the championship 4 straight years in a row? If Breck (a private) has such an unfair advantage, then why did Hermantown beat them? Why was Hermantown beating STA up until the third period? I don't know about you, but I call that a great hockey championship game to watch. So basically declaring class A or AA shouldn't go on school size or community, it should be based on past success rate. As of now I see no difference in Hermantown and STA having to move up to AA. Hermantown has built a reputation of a good hockey program and that is why they are good year after year... just like some of the other metro schools like Edina, Tonka, Wayzata, etc

[rainier]

Then why has Hermantown been in the championship 4 straight years in a row? If Breck (a private) has such an unfair advantage, then why did Hermantown beat them? Why was Hermantown beating STA up until the third period? I don't know about you, but I call that a great hockey championship game to watch. So basically declaring class A or AA shouldn't go on school size or community, it should be based on past success rate. As of now I see no difference in Hermantown and STA having to move up to AA. Hermantown has built a reputation of a good hockey program and that is why they are good year after year... just like some of the other metro schools like Edina, Tonka, Wayzata, etc

Metro private schools have won 12 of the last 15 Class A titles. Can you honestly say that being located in the Twin Cities isn't a huge advantage? How is it that a team can pull top players from several AA sized areas and then call themselves a legitmate A team? How is this not hiding behind the enrollment number to dominate smaller schools that have no access to this insane amount of talent?

Why have other states implemented multipliers or separated public and private into different tourneys? Read the article I posted a link to in a few posts prior to this. Private schools enjoy advantages, and these are magnified greatly in Class A. Did I mention metro private schools have won 12 of the last 15 Class A titles? Did you know it's the same domination in girls hockey?

Hermantown has a great program. Their players are from Hermantown, a town of 9,000, not an amalgamation of all stars from a metro area of 2.5 million, plus other states. Opting up because you are successful and opting up because you are located in huge metro area are very different things. If private schools had been placed in AA, as they should be, then Hermantown would have a few more titles and the pressure would absolutely have been on them to opt up, and I'm sure they would have.

If you see no difference between Hermantown and STA then I don't know what to tell you.

[Hard water fan]

Here are some interesting stats: In the last decade, 8 of the 10 championship games were won by privates in the Class A. In AA, 5 of the last 10. In girls A, 7 out of 10 goes to privates and 0 out of 10 for AA.
Even more interesting is that private schools comprise less than 10% of the total programs. That's an unbelievably high winning percentage and would make some pretty solid odds with the makers in Vegas.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mi ... s_(Winter)

[Lazy Scout]

So its all about Hermantown winning championships? If Hermantown wins, then it is okay for them to move up but otherwise they stay in A. I think STA should move up but not because it is a private. I don't care if the 20 players on Hermantown's roster are born and raised in Hermantown vs from all over, they are still a talented hockey program that has been in the State final 4 years in a row. Maybe they should opt up AA and let some other small school get to the championship. It was Hermantown's game to win, they could have beaten the evil, private school STA but they blew it. How is a one goal game considered an unfair advantage? It's not like they were beaten 11-0 in the final.

[Lowstickside]

Want to get rid of the private school hockey tournament domination?

If there were, say, 4 metro Tier 1 AAA hockey teams, the private school recruiting/domination and all complaining would stop. Why, because Johnny Superstar would attend his own local high school and play his hockey for whatever Tier 1 Club team he belonged to. This is done in 49 other states, but is not allowed here in MN primarily due to the success of our State HS Tournament and the $ generated.

[BlueLineSpecial]

Translate this entire 28 page thread into one post:

"There is too much consolidation of power, we don't like it"

So lets say all privates are abolished or are forced to play in their own tourney. What makes any of you think whats happening with privates won't just happen elsewhere or in another way? Guess what, it'll happen whether or not there are privates. Just like Rainier is speculating would happen at Hermantown if they opted up (accept players from other associations, take all comers, people with money moving into an area, etc etc etc).

Point is, parents/players will naturally gravitate toward opportunities that showcase their talents or challenge them to be better. Pretty soon Edina will purchase a luxury apartment complex and people wanting to play for them can move right in! Hey, your in the district now

Be careful what you wish for is all I'll say

[rainier]

So its all about Hermantown winning championships? If Hermantown wins, then it is okay for them to move up but otherwise they stay in A. I think STA should move up but not because it is a private. I don't care if the 20 players on Hermantown's roster are born and raised in Hermantown vs from all over, they are still a talented hockey program that has been in the State final 4 years in a row. Maybe they should opt up AA and let some other small school get to the championship. It was Hermantown's game to win, they could have beaten the evil, private school STA but they blew it. How is a one goal game considered an unfair advantage? It's not like they were beaten 11-0 in the final.

That's all you got for your defense of privates in Class A? Hermantown? Okay, who was the next best public school team in A? EGF. How did they fare against STA? 11-0. Would any other public school in A had a prayer vs STA? Why don't you tell us how any other public school in A would have fared this season against them. You got one public school team in A that can compete with a team like STA. One.

Keep on hammering Hermantown, it really doesn't help your argument. Tell me how being in the metro area isn't a huge advantage for privates in A. Take the "Rags to Riches Challenge" and tell me how a small outstate school can be as good as STA or Breck. Tell me how these small community schools can flip the script and win 12 of the next 15 A titles with metro private schools still in A.

[Lazy Scout]

If all privates are unfair and can recruit, then why is Blake, SPA, Minnehaha Academy, Providence Academy to name a few, dominating and winning at A?

Rainier- if these private schools can recruit from the 2.5 million metro area, then why are they not dominating at the A level?

STA IS moving up and oh, wait.... a public school beat Breck this year in the semifinal game.

Oh wait.....EGF beat Lourdes

Oh wait..... Hermantown beat Duluth Marshall

Oh wait...... a public school beat a private school in the AA state championship.

Large AA schools have twice as many kids trying out for the high school hockey team than privates!

People only whine because STA has a winning program.

[Bonehead]

If all privates are unfair and can recruit, then why is Blake, SPA, Minnehaha Academy, Providence Academy to name a few, dominating and winning at A?

Rainier- if these private schools can recruit from the 2.5 million metro area, then why are they not dominating at the A level?

Because they choose not to focus on hockey? When Benilde made a commitment to hockey they didn't have to wait for talent to develop - they encouraged talent to consider the Benilde option.

[Lazy Scout]

So now if you are a metro private school that doesn't "focus" on hockey you can stay in A? You can't have it both ways.....

[Bonehead]

So now if you are a metro private school that doesn't "focus" on hockey you can stay in A? You can't have it both ways.....

Agreed! And you can take out the metro part as far as I'm concerned. The advantages available to privates are obvious to me. MSHSL guarantees the opportunity to compete - not succeed.

[PuckU126]

MSHSL guarantees the opportunity to compete - not succeed.

But little Johnny wants a trophy!

[Bonehead]

MSHSL guarantees the opportunity to compete - not succeed.

But little Johnny wants a trophy!

Pony up the 18K and enjoy the case at STA!

[Lazy Scout]

And all 8 class A teams did compete, they just didn't all succeed. Just as the MSHSL states...